Year 1 Phonic Check

(111 Posts)
BaconAndAvocado Sun 28-Apr-13 19:28:43

To,all you KS1 experts out there, how and when is this test carried out and what bearing does it have on a child's education?

Ds2 is a good reader thoughI worry about him being asked to read "nonsense words". If he thinks they're not real he won't attempt to read them!

mrz Sun 28-Apr-13 19:38:42
Pozzled Sun 28-Apr-13 19:42:00

The nonsense words are presented as aliens' names. Can your DS accurately read the names of unfamiliar people or places? How would he deal with a word he hadn't previously encountered in his reading?

BaconAndAvocado Sun 28-Apr-13 19:49:54

I think he may struggle with a very unusual word. He has always tended to learn through memory and almost sees having to,"sound out" a word as a weakness IYSWIM.

mrz Sun 28-Apr-13 19:54:59

All new words are non words until they enter a child's vocabulary.

LegoIsMyFriend Sun 28-Apr-13 19:57:09

Sorry if this sounds harsh but I think a willingness to sound out words he hasnt seen before is essential if he is to be described as a "good reader". My DD is also in yr 1 and now on white/emerald books so a lot of new vocabulary. (Think books set during WW2, and words like nazi, evacuee, etc). She has realised very quickly that of course she can't possibly know whether words are real or not and is happy to sound out the word...and then ask what it means!

BaconAndAvocado Sun 28-Apr-13 19:57:21

Just read your link mrsz

Wow! Thanks, it covered all and lots more that I wanted to know. Will recommend this to other mums. thanks

LegoIsMyFriend Sun 28-Apr-13 19:57:51

Cross posted with Mrz who made the same point more succinctly.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Sun 28-Apr-13 20:01:38

Thanks for the link mrsz

BaconAndAvocado Sun 28-Apr-13 20:01:52

It does sound harshLego but thanks for,your advice.......

mrz Sun 28-Apr-13 20:11:51

I agree with Lego "good readers" have an effective strategy for when they encounter unknown words - it's called decoding.

BaconAndAvocado Sun 28-Apr-13 21:05:34

Yes, I gathered that from your link. It was interesting comparing reading from memory (sight vocab) and decoding unknown words.

I guess as DS matures he'll hopefully develop the confidence to do this.

Interestingly DD is much more willing to sound out her words. I think DS is always in too much of a hurry!

Apparently he's on the penultimate reading level at his infant school so it's not all doom and gloom!

radicalsubstitution Sun 28-Apr-13 21:10:31

A quick question for you mrz, if that's ok?

I tried the words with DS earlier. He had no problems, but when he came across 'sclow' he pronounced the -ow as in flow whereas I would have pronounced it as in cow.

I am assuming that, where there are several possible (correct) ways of sounding out a combination of letters, any one of them would be considered 'right'. Is that so?

mrz Sun 28-Apr-13 21:14:13

Yes that's correct for the non words

Pozzled Sun 28-Apr-13 21:17:45

Yes, radicalsubstitution, you're correct. With the non-words, as long as it's an appropriate phonetic attempt (taking into account accent etc) then it's marked as right. The real words have to be correct however e.g. 'snow' to rhyme with 'cow'- wrong.

radicalsubstitution Sun 28-Apr-13 21:23:58


BaconAndAvocado Sun 28-Apr-13 22:01:11

Thanks pozzled that's reassuring!

mrz Mon 29-Apr-13 06:41:29
Elibean Mon 29-Apr-13 11:40:31

A small distinction, but...

I think an ability to sound out unknown words is essential for a child to be described as a 'good reader'.

Willingness, OTOH, at the age of 5-6, does rather depend on the personality, the mood, the time of day, whether child has had lunch or has a cold wink

learnandsay Mon 29-Apr-13 11:56:20

The length of the word and whether or not it contains tricky/unpredictable bits.

nduffs123 Mon 29-Apr-13 12:10:53

You might want the same bond with your mother – but this doesn’t mean you need to use the same book. Apologises if I seem rude, but I don’t mean to be. But I think you’re thinking about it too simply. I am sure your daughter might like Alice in Wonderland in later life. But at the minute you need to think about the things which you are taking for granted. Lewis Carroll was writing in a time where children were more educated (not that I am saying your child is stupid, but what I am saying is that she, and all children, are more sheltered) Now a days it takes children longer to read, as they learn stage by stage, building upon what they know. It may take longer, but, look at our education system, compared to theirs. Anyone can go to university now – if they put in the hard work that is – not just the upper classes like it used to be.

Also what’s history to you (old fashioned words like you mentioned) is ancient to your child.

If you don’t want your give your child a patronising book. Have you considered any of the Roald Dahl book? I read the BFG to my daughter, who is now reading it to her son; circle of life eh?

The language is simpler than Alice in Wonderland and the sentences are less complex. But, it won’t undermine her intelligence. The book is imaginative with made up words, using compounds and blending... so at a stretch it’s educational too! The illustrations by Quintin Blake are in colour too, so she shouldn’t complain.

And Roald Dahl has definitely stood the test of time.

learnandsay Mon 29-Apr-13 12:29:22

Where does Alice in Wonderland fit in?

BaconAndAvocado Mon 29-Apr-13 16:17:03

Thanks, elliebean I do think he has the ability to sound out words but maybe at home with me he's less likely to do so than at school in a more formal environment?

Also very true about the mood he might be in!

maizieD Mon 29-Apr-13 16:32:59

I think someone's posted on the wrong thread, LandS!

Elibean Mon 29-Apr-13 17:24:28

grin B&A, dd2 (also Y1) is far less likely to do anything required of her at home than at school!

Though in her case, making nonsense words is quite good fun and therefore she will probably cooperate. Her best friend, who is younger and male, and a total engineer in the making, thinks sounding out nonsense words is utterly daft and it infuriates his sense of logic, so he will probably get upset and refuse.

mrz Mon 29-Apr-13 18:04:23

OTOH, at the age of 5-6, does rather depend on the personality, the mood, the time of day, whether child has had lunch or has a cold

Never found it a problem most 5 & 6 year olds really want to please teacher even if they are stubborn little darlings at home.

The length of the word and whether or not it contains tricky/unpredictable bits.

not sure if this was meant for this thread but the length of the word and alternative spellings for the sounds isn't a problem for reading non words

chiffusion neightrap blavoursome thrillispauce drigner

daftdame Mon 29-Apr-13 19:32:02

Never found it a problem most 5 & 6 year olds really want to please teacher even if they are stubborn little darlings at home

Mrz - This is either terribly presumptuous or you really are superhuman!!!

mrz Mon 29-Apr-13 19:37:57

No daftdame I'm not superhuman or presumptious

Hulababy Mon 29-Apr-13 19:40:20

TBH I find that children often perform better in this kind of thing where they have some 1:1 attention with their teacher. Most children love the chance for a bit of 1:1 where they get to show off what they can do - in my experience anyway.

mrz Mon 29-Apr-13 19:49:24

and mine Hulababy

daftdame Mon 29-Apr-13 19:57:28

mrz - you forgot the wink!

mrz Mon 29-Apr-13 20:02:18

no I didn't daftdame

Do the words in the test change? I'm curious to see how much my DS can do already but don't want him to 'cheat' in the real thing if he'[s seen the test before...

mrz Mon 29-Apr-13 20:06:21

yes there will be new words each year

BaconAndAvocado Mon 29-Apr-13 21:04:07

Maybe it's a girl/boy thing smile

mrz Mon 29-Apr-13 21:07:32

Well I've taught about 1000 children and not noticed a gender "thing"

mrz Mon 29-Apr-13 21:10:01

and I'm the mother of a boy and a girl

Elibean Mon 29-Apr-13 22:04:46

Or maybe just a personality thing.

Yes, I'm sure kids will do all sorts for teachers that they won't do at home - especially in 1-1 situations! That said, the little boy I'm thinking of may just go very quiet and get upset because his indignation at 'made up' words will conflict with his desire to please.

Or maybe I'm underestimating his teacher's charm (which is considerable)!

pointythings Mon 29-Apr-13 22:11:03

I have two DDs aged 10 and 12, and when they come across new words they still use their phonic knowledge to sound it out. Nine times out of ten this will work, and they will then get a good idea as to what the word means based on what they already know. The tenth time I will explain the word to them. I used to be very hmm about the phonics screening test, but not anymore.

mrz Tue 30-Apr-13 07:25:11

So are you saying you think this boy would refuse to decode a real word which isn't part of his vocabulary Elibean?

DD is certainly a stubborn little darling at home but very 'good' and compliant at school, I'm confident she will try her best.

However I also know that the school is coaching them quite a bit for the phonics test. The results were poor last year, but DD has been coming home for weeks saying things like ' queep - that's a made up word isn't it sounds like creep but it isn't' hmm

christinarossetti Tue 30-Apr-13 10:43:01

I don't think the phonics screening is a particularly big deal for children.

It's a few minutes reading 40 words/alien words with a teacher they know.

moaning, my Y1 dd has certain encountered lots of made up words throughout learning phonics (and of course new words that she has to use her decoding skills to work out). I'd be surprised if this was the first time Y1 children have seen 'alien words'.

MrsMelons Tue 30-Apr-13 10:43:36

I am suprised schools are still 'coaching' for the phonics test, it has been in long enough for the teachers to realise this is how they are being asked to teach phonics surely?

DSs school never coached the children at all but as part of their phonics lessons each week they have always read nonsense words. The children think nothing of it and they had very good overall results in the phonics test last year with only those they already knew about not passing. DS1 loves football and reads a football magazine each week so has no trouble reading foreign players names etc as he has learnt to decode so well.

christinarossetti Tue 30-Apr-13 10:58:09

The phonics screening only came in last year, although of course schools have been expected to teach phonics properly for much longer than that....

Cloverer Tue 30-Apr-13 11:03:44

Who are these children who refuse to read words they don't know? I see them mentioned on phonics threads but do they exist in large numbers in real life - and how did they get to that point at only 5 or 6?

daftdame Tue 30-Apr-13 11:12:39

Mrz - I do not dispute the teaching of phonics - at all.

I was troubled by your assertion that it is usual for children to be better behaved for their teachers than their parents.

Whilst I don't dispute this may be true in some cases, the opposite is equally true in others.

If my assertion lies outside your experience you still have to remember many parents will experience teachers that their children did not perform well with. Not all teachers are shining examples of the profession, children can suddenly become anxious in unusual test like situations (as per the examples above when children are coached) and your assertion is too general to recognise this even exists.

I'm not worried about the test at all, I see it as very much testing the school's teaching of phonics rather than testing the children, I suppose.

I am a bit disconcerted they feel they need to coach the children, and I am a bit unconvinced about how well they are teaching phonics. Last year the results were terrible - I hope they are teaching phonics more effectively as well as coaching the children, IYKWIM.

christinarossetti Tue 30-Apr-13 14:14:38

Unless the school have improved how they teach phonics, the results aren't likely to improve from a bit of 'coaching'.

daftdame Tue 30-Apr-13 14:18:55

BaconAndAvocado - if you think your DS may be disconcerted by 'nonsense' words maybe read Ricky Gervais's 'Flanimals' to /with him, to show how 'nonsense' can be fun.

I think this book could be very good, for your DS, as it contains (fictional) unrecognisable names / terms but puts them very firmly in context - so the activity does not seem so bizarre.

learnandsay Tue 30-Apr-13 14:21:14

The results might only improve by a point or two but for some children that'll be the amount they need. Familiarity with the format of the test always helps some people to feel at ease. It's like walking the racecourse or inspecting the pitch. Every little helps. But it's hardly the purpose of the test.

christinarossetti Tue 30-Apr-13 14:47:30

But the 'format' of the test is decoding words!

One would hope that this isn't unfamiliar to 5 and 6 year olds in UK schools.

daftdame Tue 30-Apr-13 15:06:23

christinarossetti - It could just be that 'there's not much bang for your buck' IYSWIM in that the words are out of obvious context. Unusually words in the natural environment have a clear visual context.

Also how much 1 to 1 time would a child be used to with the person doing the testing? Doing the same activity? They may be familiar with them / used to them teaching in a class environment but usually read to a different TA or parent helper. Obviously it depends on how individual schools organise teaching etc.

However it is possible for the child to pick up that this activity is somehow different - by any different behaviour the teacher shows for example. I would not expect the test to be taken as the only or sure-proof indicator of a child's ability in decoding.

BaconAndAvocado Tue 30-Apr-13 15:44:30

Thanks daftdame. I have often seen that book but never really picked it up to have a good look. It sounds perfect!

MrsMelons Tue 30-Apr-13 16:22:33

christina the test was taken for the 1st time last year so schools knew about it way before that and yes they should have been teaching phonics properly before that but many weren't.

What I meant was that since last year the teaching of phonics should have improved if it wasn't being taught correctly so coaching should be unnecessary IMO. A few practice tests to familiarise the children is different.

MrsMelons Tue 30-Apr-13 16:23:43

I have heard some awful tales on MN about teachers not teaching phonics!

learnandsay Tue 30-Apr-13 16:26:27

Mumsnet is the place to hear awful tales about not learning phonics.

MrsMelons Tue 30-Apr-13 16:27:18


daftdame Tue 30-Apr-13 17:00:18
Hulababy Tue 30-Apr-13 17:12:13

Pseudo or made up words are not new to children.

WE generally all read them as children - Roald Dahl anyone? Loads in those books - snozcumber, etc???

And as already said, when children are reading they come across words they don't know. They have to be able to decode those words in order to read them. Some of those words, even when sounded out, may be unfamiliar words they don't know the meaning of - so is this really any different to decoding pseudo words?

I really do think parents, and some teachers, make a far bigger deal of out pseudo words than the children ever do!

daftdame Tue 30-Apr-13 17:28:37

No dispute there from me Hulababy.

However 'nonsense' words placed within a vivid context may help a child which a parent suspects may not see the point of reading anything nonsensical.

learnandsay Tue 30-Apr-13 17:34:04

I'd imagine that anybody regardless of age would volunteer to read a passage much faster if they didn't think they were going to find it difficult. If you think you're going to struggle with it and it doesn't make any sense then why would you volunteer to read it? (Child or adult.)

mrz Tue 30-Apr-13 17:51:42

"I was troubled by your assertion that it is usual for children to be better behaved for their teachers than their parents."

Then perhaps you should read what I actually said daftdame

daftdame Tue 30-Apr-13 17:52:39

The good thing about sharing books with your children that contain nonsense words is that it encourages a child to think imaginatively as to what the words could mean. This makes the activity more exciting, which can't be a bad thing.

They will be able to directly reference details from fiction (including illustrations) in order to imagine the 'aliens', and what their language may be like so the activity seems more game like.

daftdame Tue 30-Apr-13 17:53:51

???? I did mrz. But I'm pleased you weren't asserting that grin.

mrz Tue 30-Apr-13 17:56:44

There isn't a "test format" learnandsay the child sits with the teacher and decodes some words it takes about 4 mins.

learnandsay Tue 30-Apr-13 18:01:14

Even if that was all there was to it that in itself is a format. But there is more like the division of real/alien words and pictures of aliens, composition of the words themselves and so on. It's all formatting.

Hulababy Tue 30-Apr-13 18:02:55

We did this test with 90 children last year and we honestly did not have any issues with any child refusing to try and read them, or even not wanting to.

We had 3 or 4 who could not read many, achieving just 2-4 in the test, due to their individual learning difficulties. But they had a go, and happily.

They all got an shiny, puffy alien sticker afterwards too, which went down very well!

The lower end just had a go.
The top end read them no issue.
The middle groups had a go, gave them a try and either read them or didn't manage them.

Seriously out of 90 children - not one wouldn't have a go, and not one got confused by the idea. They didn't even try to turn them into real words - as they had all come across pseudo words previously.

And tbh we had no surprises either, well not negatively. We had a handful who did better than we thought, but all the ones we thought would pass did so. All the good readers passed easily.

We have a group who will be redoing it in June, in Y2. Most will pass. 3 or 4 probably not, despite more intensive phonics and additional support - because of their learning barriers. But they have all improved on their phonics and reading, so are making good progress for them, just slower. They will get there.

mrz Tue 30-Apr-13 18:04:12

You obviously didn't daftdame

Never found it a problem most 5 & 6 year olds really want to please teacher even if they are stubborn little darlings at home."

no mention of behaviour and no suggestion that ALL children will want to please teacher more than mum or dad!

Limelight Tue 30-Apr-13 18:04:25

My DS is in Yr1. His very sensible teacher said to us at his review meeting that she wasn't giving it too much thought, we certainly shouldn't, and it would make absolutely no difference to how well or not well she thought DS was doing.

She did point out that the flaw in the test is that kids who are quite able readers (have sort of moved past thinking about phonics first if you see what I mean) will reorder the made-up words into something which makes sense to them. The example she gave was a kid reading 'oot' as 'too'.

learnandsay Tue 30-Apr-13 18:08:00

Limelight, if the teacher prepped the kids up a bit and reminded them in "mock" tests to look out for the little aliens beside the alien words wouldn't that iron out the misreading of oot?

fuzzpig Tue 30-Apr-13 18:08:41

Useful thread. DD is in yr1 and haven't heard anything from school about the screening yet.

daftdame Tue 30-Apr-13 18:12:41

mrz - Well I misread the subtext. Sorry.

I'm the first to admit I make assumptions, without assumptions we can't get through life. Sometimes they are wrong (for which freely apologise).

mrz Tue 30-Apr-13 18:13:39

Even if that was all there was to it that in itself is a format. and children never ever read to their teacher as part of their normal daily routine I suppose?

mrz Tue 30-Apr-13 18:14:20

and that is definitely ALL there is to it!

learnandsay Tue 30-Apr-13 18:15:32

Not lists of isolated words, the nonsensical half of which have a significant alien picture beside them, no.

mrz Tue 30-Apr-13 18:16:46

Good readers read what is there, they don't reorder the letters ...that is guessing and exactly what poor readers do!

learnandsay Tue 30-Apr-13 18:23:24

I'm sure that's true. But I'm also sure that putting children on the spot by making them perform a strange and half alien task (alien prompts or not) will, if the children are not first prepared, cause some children to make unnecessary mistakes (regardless of which specific mistakes they may be.)

I'm sure other unprepared children will do fine. But I suspect that has as much to do with the temperament of the child as her ability to read.

3boysmum13 Tue 30-Apr-13 18:27:56

My ds did this test and what a load of nonsense it was he was sent out with a slip of paper saying well done you got them all right and we heard no more about it.

mrz Tue 30-Apr-13 18:30:46

but it isn't a strange or half alien task it is simply reading 40 words to their teacher. The fact that half those words are pseudo words is neither here nor there as people have pointed out they are no different to reading unfamiliar real words.

ClayDavis Tue 30-Apr-13 18:32:57

She did point out that the flaw in the test is that kids who are quite able readers (have sort of moved past thinking about phonics first if you see what I mean) will reorder the made-up words into something which makes sense to them. The example she gave was a kid reading 'oot' as 'too'.

Aaaargh! This is exactly why some some schools are having to coach to the test whereas others just rely on their phonics teaching.

learnandsay Tue 30-Apr-13 18:33:24

Then other people are wrong because we don't normally read lists of isolated words. We normally read passages. And most of the words in passages are meaningful.

sittinginthesun Tue 30-Apr-13 18:39:21

I had forgotten all about this one. I just asked DS2 (Year 1), and he said they sometimes read alien words in phonics, but haven't lately. I asked if he ever got confused with real words - he said "NO!!! The alien words have an alien by them, of course".

He seems quite relaxed it all. They just think it's a bit of fun.

mrz Tue 30-Apr-13 18:41:57

I actually think the pictures of aliens are more confusing than the words.

mrz Tue 30-Apr-13 18:42:45

Interesting learnandsay you didn't write poo and wee etc and use flashcards?

Hulababy Tue 30-Apr-13 18:43:47

The "alien" words have a decent sized, colour picture of an alien next to the words. And there is sample wording to read out to the children which tells them they are reading non-words each time they are given.

learnandsay Tue 30-Apr-13 18:44:57

I did indeed. But I'm pretty sure that child didn't know she was reading. It was just a game.

mrz Tue 30-Apr-13 18:50:04

and so is the phonics screening check ... a one lasting FOUR whole minutes

daftdame Tue 30-Apr-13 18:55:38

mrz - There are some interesting studies done regarding eyesight and visual perception referred to in New Scientist ( I can't think of the exact issues but I could probably dig them out). Basically how our brain makes sense and fills in the gaps concerning the information supplied by the optic's how misdirection works.

With reference to reordered words it is not such a stretch of the imagination to imagine a child substituting a word they would expect to see for a word that it already there. Especially as reading skills are embedded and reading becomes more instinctive.

Thus the test should be seen as merely a tool in the teachers repertoire rather than infallible.

daftdame Tue 30-Apr-13 19:00:11

My inability to proof read proves just the point I was making!grin

simpson Tue 30-Apr-13 19:00:12

Mrz - I agree re the pictures.

I help in a reception class that use the phonics tests (and ones they have made up themselves in the same format to assess the kids - amongst other things) and a couple of the kids look at the picture and just say "alien" every time....

Although don't get me started on my thoughts on this way of assessing hmm

mrz Tue 30-Apr-13 19:03:59

So the child who reads strom and storm in the check isn't the same child who reads spilt as split or stroke and stork(e) etc hmm

learnandsay Tue 30-Apr-13 19:08:44

Do children read

Then the stroke flew down from its nest.

daftdame Tue 30-Apr-13 19:11:25

mrz - Who can say? You would have to know what was going on in the child's brain to know for sure.

It's safe to say it is better to use the test as just a tool rather than a definitive indicator of a child's ability. In practice I'm sure this is what is happening. Why insist the test is virtually infallible?

mrz Tue 30-Apr-13 19:11:54

Well not that exact sentence learnandsay but yes some do make random guesses without realising it doesn't make sense especially if neither word is in their normal vocabulary.

mrz Tue 30-Apr-13 19:18:27

Because it is a well established method of testing used by Educational Psychologists and Developmental Neuropsychologists daftdame

Pozzled Tue 30-Apr-13 19:20:30

Quick question- are the phonics check results for individual schools published somewhere? I'm very curious about how DD1's school did, as I think they're pretty dire at phonics.

mrz Tue 30-Apr-13 19:20:46

and the fact that lots of teachers are shocked by their not as good as they thought readers being able to decode unknown words demonstrates it is very much needed.

mrz Tue 30-Apr-13 19:21:52

no Pozzled the results aren't published

daftdame Tue 30-Apr-13 19:26:07

Oh mrz ! Read up on your history of 'scientific' practices! ALWAYS remain open minded!

Assumptions are allowable but only if you admit them.

mrz Tue 30-Apr-13 19:28:20

You need to follow your own advice daftdame

mrz Tue 30-Apr-13 19:29:54

the check does exactly what it is intended to do ... it tests the ability to accurately decode.

daftdame Tue 30-Apr-13 19:32:15

mrz - Probably but I'm relying on people like you to point out exactly where I am wrong when I haven't realised them (the assumptions). Clearly - because interpreting subtext can easily go wrong! I'll do the same for you / others. It's how it works.

simpson Tue 30-Apr-13 19:34:18

Does the school have to submit the results?

MrsMelons Tue 30-Apr-13 19:34:28

Exactly Mrz, my DS is a high level reader but was able to do the phonics test with ease as not only can he decode well (as well as recognising by sight) - he can follow the simple instructions of reading normal and alien words. He can understand in a sentence if a word didn't make sense but that is not what the phonics check is asking.

When reading to himself he is a skim reader like me but it doesn't hinder him from reading properly when required.

mrz Tue 30-Apr-13 19:37:10

yes simpson the school has to submit the results and must inform parents of their own child's results

learnandsay Tue 30-Apr-13 19:37:10

Personally I think the test is a great idea. But I do think the abnormality of what the children are being asked to do should be a bit more recognised. And, given that it's a bit of a weird way to behave from start to finish, with some bits weirder than others, I don't think the experts should get their knickers in too much of a twist if some children make a hash of it. If children were always reading lists of isolated words some nonsensical with alien pictures beside them, then OK. But they're not.

mrz Tue 30-Apr-13 19:46:08

The problem with that logic learnandsay data built up from many years experience involving many thousand of children indicates that those seemingly good readers who are unable to decode (any) words accurately are exactly the ones we should get our knickers in a twist over.

learnandsay Tue 30-Apr-13 19:53:12

Maybe so. But at the moment we seem to be discussing the children who misread the alien words as real words. If any child got 0 out of 40 on the test, decoding or not I'd be worried, never mind about decoding.

simpson Tue 30-Apr-13 19:56:00

Also one other thing...the kids who failed it in yr 1 (and there were lots in my DC school) have to retake it in yr2. What if they fail it then?

mrz Tue 30-Apr-13 20:01:09

Yes we are learnandsay ... and that is the same test used by Ed Psychs and those conduction brain research into reading difficulties.

mrz Tue 30-Apr-13 20:02:23

simpson they are meant to receive extra support but won't be formally retested in Y3

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