Reading books order after The Storm ORT?

(151 Posts)
Iamnotminterested Mon 01-Apr-13 19:38:11

Just that. Floppy has found the key and friend wants to know which books come next; I can't remember (or have I erased them from my memory?)

simpson Mon 01-Apr-13 20:10:45

The next book IIRC is The Magic Key in which the brats kids have their first magic key adventure...

Periwinkle007 Mon 01-Apr-13 21:07:11

I didn't even realise there WAS an order. I also didn't know how they found the key in the first place, we never had that book.

As far as I am concerned the fewer we are subjected to the better (mind I prefer them to the non magic key biff ones) as I have another child to get through them yet so if I am lucky she might fill in some of the gaps rather than me have to sit through all the exact same ones again

numbum Mon 01-Apr-13 21:32:45

It's 'Floppy eats the key' next. You know the one where he swallows it and spares us all the next 60 dull as dishwater books

simpson Mon 01-Apr-13 21:34:51

Yep then Floppy croaks it and that is the end of him!!!

simpson Mon 01-Apr-13 21:36:56

Periwinkle - unfortunately at stage 4 IIRC there is a series of them about when they move house and find a secret room (with the dolls house in it) and Floppy that bastard digs up the magic key.

simpson Mon 01-Apr-13 21:37:41

Can you tell I go in and read with yr1 every week?? blush

Haberdashery Mon 01-Apr-13 21:50:29

The best ORT book is the one where there is a crazy parallel story going on in the pictures about how the school caretaker keeps getting his hats stolen by evil birds. The sub-plot is completely hilarious. I think it's called The Joke Machine or something. Please encourage your children to look out for this one, it is fabulous. Honest. Look at the pictures.

numbum Mon 01-Apr-13 22:07:42

Just don't get haberdashery's book muddled up with the painful playscript version

simpson I listen to year 1 read too. I can listen to a lot of them read now without actually looking at the book and know if they've got it right or not

AryaUnderfoot Mon 01-Apr-13 22:14:10

Has anyone had 'The Litter Queen' at all. It's the one where Floppy cuts his foot on a bit of broken glass.

For some reason, DS found the expression on the wounded Floppy's face absolutely hilarious. I have never seen him laugh so much at a school book.

simpson Mon 01-Apr-13 22:17:25

The Litter Queen and Storm Castle both make me want to slash my wrists!!!

Oh and Fizz Buzz (can you tell my DC school only use Biff etc) although DD (in reception) has managed to avoid them some how confused

I quite like the one when Gran when on a bouncy castle with high heels though blush

numbum Mon 01-Apr-13 22:18:51

LOL I like that one too simpson but the kids never seem to find it funny!

simpson Mon 01-Apr-13 22:19:23

Haberdashery - not come across that one but I read The Rainbow Machine (with yr2 - well I did not read it the child did obviously!!) which was quite amusing and one I had not come across before...

simpson Mon 01-Apr-13 22:21:25

Numbum - the sign at the end altered from no kids to no grans was most grin

God, I must get a life!!!

When I hear kids for nearly 2 hours 3 times a week all reading Biff et al I have to amuse myself somehow grin

learnandsay Tue 02-Apr-13 09:07:16

I think there might be one before that. We've had very few Chopper, Boff and Kopper books but one was about an outing which had right at the end Boff grabbed Wilma's hand and said "time to go on an adventure." That's the end of the book but there's a shining key in a box in the picture.

Periwinkle007 Tue 02-Apr-13 09:16:32

sorry Simpson - I know there are loads of them, we had to read most but I didn't realise there was an order and we managed to miss the first one somehow. We had the one about moving house and finding the room and the dolls house. perhaps i am just not paying enough attention. now we are on book band 8 at least there are only a maximum 24 to go....

simpson Tue 02-Apr-13 10:24:55

The stage 4 ones (think there are 6 of them) are the only ones I know of an order to read them iyswim.

House for sale - when they all go and look at the tatty house and buy it.
The new House - when they move into said house.
Come in! - lots of kids come to play when dad is painting the house.
The secret room - Biff finds a secret room in the new house with the dolls house
in it.
The Play - the class put on a play at school.
The storm - a storm blows the tree in the garden down & Floppy found the box
With the magic key in.

Then said child moves to stage 5 with The Magic Key being first and I think the next one after the magic key one is the adventure with dinosaurs (forget what it's called).

Iamnotminterested Tue 02-Apr-13 12:57:21

Thanks for all the posts.

So Simpson, does your school only have ORT??

simpson Tue 02-Apr-13 13:25:22

Seems like it hmm although how DD (reception) has avoided them I will never know!!!

They do also use songbirds and quite a few of the kids in reception are on jolly phonics books (which are as bad as Biff etc IMO) and once they get to stage 9/10 ie past Biff etc then they use treetops books.

Don't mention the fizz buzz!!! Easily the worst ORT book of all time!!!

Periwinkle007 Tue 02-Apr-13 17:11:47

haha - my 3 year old read the Fizz Buzz yesterday! great work of literature that one.

Isn't it In the Garden and then Land of the Dinosaurs or something because it follows on. They are level 6 I think.

Te Magic Key is book band blue but Stage 5
the other stage 5 ones are (in the order ORT list them)
Pirate Adventure - must be a magic key
The Dragon Tree - must be a magic key
Castle Adventure - must be a magic key
Village in the Snow - magic key?
Gran - not magic key?
A Monster Mistake - magic key?
The Great Race - not magic key
The Whatsit - no idea
Underground Adventure - magic key
Vanishing Cream - no idea
It's Not Fair - magic key
A New Classroom - ?
Camping Adventure - ?
Mum to the Rescue - not magic key
Noah's Ark Adventure - Magic Key
Scarecrows - ?
The New Baby - Not magic key
Sleeping Beauty - Magic Key
The Adventure Park - ?
Kipper and the Trolls - magic key
Safari Adventure - magic key
Dad's Run - NOT magic key
Drawing Adventure - Magic key I assume

then stage 6....
In the Garden - magic key
Kipper and the giant - magic key
land of the dinosaurs - magic key
robin hood - ?
the outing - ?
the treasure chest - magic key
Rotten Apples ?
Christmas Adventure - magic key?
The go kart race - not magic key
A fright in the night - not magic key
the laughing princess - magic key
the shiny key - magic key
Paris adventure - magic key
Homework
Olympic Adventure - magic key
Ship in trouble?
The stolen crown part 1 - magic key?
the stolen crown part 2 - magic key?

think thats the lot - can't face looking at stage 7/8/9 at the moment.

^

Were you bored? grin

simpson Tue 02-Apr-13 18:46:37

grin

Rotten Apples is the one when the horse gets drunk grin it's not a magic key one.

Robin Hood is a magic key one I think...

A new classroom - I think is when they get a new classroom and it's built upside down so not a magic key one.

Drawing adventure is a magic key one and very dull

Periwinkle007 Tue 02-Apr-13 18:54:55

I was telling the kids I was doing some work so THEY had to tidy up their mess so not so much boredom as tidying avoidance!
My daughter wanted the Rotten Apples one but couldn't find it in the box at school. Sounds like it might have been quite a fun one.

new classroom upside down? What on earth makes them write these things.

Iamnotminterested Tue 02-Apr-13 19:04:39

Wow, I admire the encyclopaedic knowledge of ORT books demonstrated thus! Can see you on Mastermind now; name? "Simpson", age? "Known only to my partner, GP and the Mumsnet faithful", specialist subject "The collected works of Roderick Hunt and Alex Brychta, 1947 to the present day."

BooksandaCuppa Tue 02-Apr-13 19:05:33

My most proud contribution to seven years helping at ds's school (in class and PTA) was persuading the literacy coordinator to order extra copies of The Magic Key. The children don't notice reading the books out of order (obviously), though are clearly given them roughly in order...but...it could be ever so frustrating to be moving a child up to the next level and not be able to give The Magic Key one first at that level. Cue much confusion from children and parent if they got Dragon Tree or something first!

(my favs in the whole scheme were The Rainbow Machine and The Joke Machine...ds asked for copies of those for home!)

simpson Tue 02-Apr-13 19:19:35

When DS went into yr1 (he is now in yr3) he got his first magic key book but without reading the build up to it iyswim.

I thought WTF there is a door outside!!! And I was clueless to help him comprehend what was going on (as I had no clue!!)

Iamnotinterested - you know more than me, as I don't have a clue who writes them or why grin

Periwinkle007 Tue 02-Apr-13 19:51:09

there are a few children in my daughter's reception class who have skipped level 4 and 5 so who have suddenly landed in magic key land at level 6. I dread to think what they and their parents made of it (mind they might have just sighed with relief that they had missed out so many)

simpson Tue 02-Apr-13 19:57:49

I am still amazed that DD has managed to miss them all (apart from The Jigsaw Puzzle which she had just before Xmas).

I am breathing a sigh of relief!!

Periwinkle007 Tue 02-Apr-13 20:19:45

you are oh so lucky. what books does she bring home?

up to level 6 we had a mix of Biff, snapdragons, fireflies, sunshine spirals, new way, Ginn etc. 7 and 8 we have just had fireflies and magic key. oh and some ORT Robins ones too about William and Hamid

simpson Tue 02-Apr-13 20:32:19

She has had a bit of an odd mixture for the Easter holidays...

She has a treetops book called Purple Buttons (stage 10), 2 blue level Jolly phonics books (not looked at them yet), a chapter book about Spongebob Square Pants (which is not banded) and a Mog the cat book (which I assume is for her to read to herself).

simpson Tue 02-Apr-13 20:33:17

She did get a couple of Heinemann books at around stage 6 which she loved...

Periwinkle007 Tue 02-Apr-13 20:49:54

thats quite a nice mix there. we don't get anything extra for over the holidays. What are the treetops books like? Are they similar to the Early Reader books? my daughter is enjoying some of the early reader ones. I am not sure what our school have in the box for level 10. I don't think they have many as reception and year 1 have their own sets of books due to being on a different site. I know the boxes go up to 10 and then beyond that the teacher has some others put away but I don't know what they are (however I am incredibly nosy so just might have to ask grin))

eatyourveg Tue 02-Apr-13 20:50:46

see here for how many books there are at each stage - ds1 always had more than 6 in one stage, the core books then the more stories pack A ones followed by the pack B ones

Taffeta Tue 02-Apr-13 20:53:04

Re The Litter Queen, my DD had this last week and cried at Floppy's cut paw. I cried at the story structure - appalling.

Periwinkle007 Tue 02-Apr-13 20:55:49

lol Taffeta

simpson Tue 02-Apr-13 21:01:45

Taffeta grin

Periwinkle - they seem quite similar but maybe a bit wordier iyswim. There are some on the Oxford owl website I think. DD has to go into yr2 to get the treetops books.

The book people used to have a massive set of treetops books (stage 12-14 with 24 books altogether) that I bought for DS when he was in yr1 IIRC they were £10 for all 24 books.

Periwinkle007 Tue 02-Apr-13 21:06:51

Yes I expect that Yr2 and 3 at my daughter's school probably have them but with them being on the other site they can't just go and get them. Perhaps that is what the teacher has put away. I suppose there aren't THAT many reception and Yr1 children reading that level so they don't have many just hanging around waiting for them. In Reception they have a few of them at level 7/8 but I think they are the highest in the year at the moment. My daughter reads level 9/10 very comfortably at home but I am not sure what school see from her and am hoping her new glasses will help and therefore they might suddenly see how well she can read. Not that it makes much difference as at home she reads whatever she wants and thats more important but I think she would be more interested in some of the harder books from what she says

simpson Tue 02-Apr-13 21:15:42

The junior building (yr3 onwards) is round the other side from the infant building so I am not sure what will happen once DD finishes the books in the infant building as nobody went to get DS and 3 others books from juniors when they were in yr2.

I am hoping we can scrap the school scheme altogether by then!!

DD is on stage 10, another girl is on stage 7 and there a few of 4/5 but most of her class are on red.

simpson Tue 02-Apr-13 21:16:49

Fingers x for the new glasses, how long do you have to wait?

Periwinkle007 Tue 02-Apr-13 21:24:21

I think a lot of schools stop at 10/11ish. Certainly ours does. Except perhaps for guided reading but otherwise I think they just move on to reading whatever from the library.

We picked the glasses up over the weekend and she has been wearing them to read the last 3 days. She seems a bit better to me, fewer silly mistakes and excellent sudden notice of punctuation even though the book she is now reading is much smaller font. We will have to wait and see what happens in the classroom, the white board and the lighting was really affecting her so hopefully the glasses will help.

I don't know how many are still on red. I don't think it is many as certainly quite a few of the English as a second language children are picking it up very quickly. I know of a few on 6, a few on 7 and her on 8 out of 31 which is really good. They did very concentrated work on phonics for the first term and a half before really doing other things so obviously that means many of the children now have all the tools they need to read well.

personally as a plainly very pushy parent who thinks her child is wonderful I think she should be on level 9 but hopefully she will demonstrate her ability to school soon and then move up (and get off magic key!)

simpson Tue 02-Apr-13 21:40:34

Biff etc finish at stage 9 I think...

Is your DD in reception or yr1?

I read with the current yr1s and the majority of them seem to be on blue.

Fingers x on the glasses. She has done incredibly well to get to where she is if she finds some things tough in the classroom.

Periwinkle007 Tue 02-Apr-13 21:48:40

Reception but she is the oldest in the class.

thanks. yes I really hope the glasses help her, even if it just makes her a bit more comfortable with the lighting and the board. I think it will take some confidence going in and wearing coloured lenses but some of the others in the class have normal glasses and I think her friends will be kind about it. Her teacher and TAs are really lovely so I think they will be very supportive

simpson Tue 02-Apr-13 21:55:05

DD is reception and Jan born so an older child ish...

When DS was in reception he really struggled with everything which I put down to being 31st Aug birthday but it turned out he had glue ear sad so couldn't hear properly. He had grommets put in and he was off!!!

Periwinkle007 Tue 02-Apr-13 21:58:14

there are so many things that can affect them and yet they don't realise there is something wrong because they are so young and don't know any different. Thats great they have sorted it out though

learnandsay Tue 02-Apr-13 22:01:46

Somebody said on the thread which has now been deleted that adults believe children can't do things. I was told by lots of family and friends (who hadn't seen my daughter read) that she couldn't read because she was only three. I guess they'd be more determined to tell me what her younger sister can and cannot do (without seeing that too.)

simpson Tue 02-Apr-13 22:09:20

LandS - the HT told me at a phonics session run for parents of nursery/reception children (when she was in nursery) that she couldn't be reading correctly and she was just remembering the words because she was 3.

Another mum who has a DS in DD's class said that when he was in nursery he wanted to learn to read and had got hang of basic blending cat and dog etc but the school said to stop as he was too young ( which is why for reception she moved him to the school my DC go to).

learnandsay Tue 02-Apr-13 22:21:31

I don't see why they can't sing the abc song and identify their letters as soon as they're able. If they can say milk, cheese, cat, dog, bed and no (the favourite word at the moment) I don't see why they can't say abc.

learnandsay Tue 02-Apr-13 22:25:34

I suspect the little blighters (all of them) are about a million times more intelligent and capable than adults are willing to give them credit for.

simpson Tue 02-Apr-13 22:37:43

But I think the problem is when they are not encouraged or supported at home (whole different topic!!)

learnandsay Tue 02-Apr-13 22:57:55

Yes, it's sort of a different topic because at home you can prep them. But they're still clever in play school. And if in play school they're told you can to potato paintings, crayon drawings and dancing, but you can't do abc because you're not old enough then they won't do abc.

I think the whole concept of old enough should be scrapped and replaced with if you can then you can, and if you can't then you can't.

simpson Tue 02-Apr-13 23:00:13

But then it would continue with if you are ready to stop learning through play then you can iyswim...

Rather than waiting till September <<sigh>>

learnandsay Tue 02-Apr-13 23:03:28

Sort of, but if the concept of old enough was scrapped then learning through play would become part of "can't." Children who can do it would just get on with it. (Pretty much like they do at home.)

mrz Wed 03-Apr-13 09:11:36

But then it would continue with if you are ready to stop learning through play

When are you ready to stop learning through play? genuine question

simpson Wed 03-Apr-13 09:28:22

Don't know mrz but my DD is.

The school have acknowledged that she is ready for more structure that she will get in yr1.

I don't mean that she will never learn anything through play ever again obviously but that she would prefer to be sitting at a desk/table doing a particular task rather than dressing up iyswim.

mrz Wed 03-Apr-13 09:54:56

I think "learning through play" is an unfortunate term

AryaUnderfoot Wed 03-Apr-13 09:56:14

When are you ready to stop learning through play? genuine question

Unfortunately, it's like 'how long is a piece of string?'

DS never got on with learning through play, if that 'learning' was supposed to lead to the kind of milestones in the old EYFS profile. He was never, in a million years, going to choose to make any form of mark on a piece of paper in any form of 'child led' activity. His idea of 'child led' was to run around with a big stick and play pirates.

Whilst he was intellectually 'ready to learn', he needed a firm kick up the arse and structure and discipline to get him to actually do anything. He would have been better off skipping reception entirely - he achieved very little in the year other than developing a reputation as 'the naughty child'.

As parents we have a responsibility to identify and help our children to learn key skills when they are ready for them - not necessarily when they want to.

DS at 6 1/2 would still be happy for me to dress him, wipe his bum, cut up all his food and write all his thank you letters. It was my job to identify when he was perfectly capable of doing these things for himself and then making damn sure he did (despite resistance).

simpson my dd was very similar. She did have fun in reception but the last term she did start stagnate a bit. She was desperate to do more structured work and was ready for that next step. Bit she is one if the older ones Had she been born a fortnight earlier shed have been at school a whole yr before. She has come on leaps and bounds in yr one. Obviously like you said, its not like she will never learn through play again. But yr 1 was more what she hoped school was going to be. Her teacher has allowed her to progress at her own rate rather than keeping her back which did happen a bit in reception as focus was on other things.

mrz Wed 03-Apr-13 10:41:49

I believe there are many reception teachers who are afraid to follow the child's lead and let children read, write and calculate etc because they have been misinformed often by advisors. Learning through play needs defining ... it doesn't mean children can't do what adults seem to consider is work. There should be no distinction between work and play to a child they are the same. There is nothing in the EYFS that says a child cannot sit and write all day if that is what the want to do.

simpson Wed 03-Apr-13 10:58:44

DD's teacher is very good and DD does do a lot of 121 reading, writing etc but is just ready for more.

She is ready to have more structured lessons I guess like history, geography etc.

She loves having weekly spelling tests, doing written homework (odd child) which she will get more of in yr1 (Heaven help me!!)

She constantly says things like " teach me more about books" which as I am not a teacher I cannot do really.

mrz Wed 03-Apr-13 11:05:56

Do they not learn history and geography in reception simpson?

simpson Wed 03-Apr-13 11:16:53

Don't know to be fair, probably but it's within "topic time" iyswim. So ATM she is learning about space. She has learnt about healthy eating, 3 d shapes, analysing or retelling a story (The Gingerbread Man) so I am not saying she is learning nothing as that is far from the case but just think she is ready for more really.

I can imagine that DD is a bit of a handful at school (as she is at home!!) and needs a lot of stimulation to keep her busy. She is not good at coming up with ideas by herself to keep herself busy iyswim.

mrz Wed 03-Apr-13 11:24:58

Many schools will teach history, geography and science etc. through topic work across the whole school not just in reception. In life nothing is compartmentalised into separate subjects.
If you study the Vikings, Normans, Egyptians or Aztecs you are going to look at where they came from, how they lived and where they travelled

simpson Wed 03-Apr-13 11:33:03

I also guess that the lessons will be longer too which I think is another issue (her teacher mentioned it).

I know that they have been learning about space which then goes into numeracy counting backwards to "blast off" and 3D shapes etc.

I am not criticising her teachers far from it, they are doing a fab job, it is more of a criticism of EYFS (for DD).

She started the reception year on a couple of 9s and she will end the reception year on the same score as they can't go higher iyswim (although I know it's not about scores - I just feel she has outgrown EYFS).

mrz Wed 03-Apr-13 11:37:50

Why can't they go higher simpson?

teacherwith2kids Wed 03-Apr-13 11:38:25

DD in Reception used to spend whole days writing stories.

DS used to spend days doing maths on the blackboard...he particularly liked it when the World Cup was on, as he and another child chose to create 'league tables' for each group, and spent ages updating them, calculating the new (negative or positive) goal differences, keeping tallies of top scorers etc.

Both in many ways learned much more in Reception than in Year 1, because there was never a 'ceiling' on the tasks set. So a Y1 maths task would not normally include the addition or subtraction of negative numbers, but DS's self-imposed Reception task (which his teacher aided and abetted through materials and discussion) did, and he was able to show his true ability that way.

teacherwith2kids Wed 03-Apr-13 11:40:26

(DS was recorded in NC levels for Reading and for Maths, and DD for Reading and Writing at the end of reception, as both had moved beyond the EYFS - I thought that was normal practice? I know that a child in Reception at my last school was being assessed on NC levels for Maths by Christas of Reception)

Haberdashery Wed 03-Apr-13 11:43:26

>> She started the reception year on a couple of 9s and she will end the reception year on the same score

That doesn't mean she hasn't learnt things, though.

DD spent all her time in Reception creating increasingly detailed and utterly bonkers junk models on the making table, however it didn't seem to stop her learning other stuff as well.

mrz Wed 03-Apr-13 11:44:21

It should be normal practice teacherwith2kids, but as I said teachers and advisors are confused by "learning through play"

simpson Wed 03-Apr-13 11:56:47

I would have thought that the reason she cannot go higher on EYFS would be because it only goes up to 9.

As I already said, this does not mean she has not progressed (I was told her NC level for reading in December but don't know the others - or even if she has been assessed NC wise for them).

Teacherwith2kids - not normal practice at DD's school.

But that is DD's problem in that she likes to be given a task to then spend ages to do <<sigh>> she is not great at thinking of them for herself...

Can you tell she is doing my head in and the holidays have just started? grin

mrz Wed 03-Apr-13 12:04:50

"I would have thought that the reason she cannot go higher on EYFS would be because it only goes up to 9."

The old score of 9 (no longer exists under new EYFS profile) meant that a child was working beyond the EYFS Early Learning Goals and was working within National Curriculum levels and as such should be taught using the NC.

teacherwith2kids Wed 03-Apr-13 12:09:56

Ecactly, mrz. So DD's EYFS profile as reported to us that the end of the year had '9' for the relevant sections and then a separate NC level for Reading and Writing.

simpson Wed 03-Apr-13 12:11:27

I have only ever (at parents eve etc) had her reported as being on a 9 nothing about NC levels.

I know at the beginning of the school year they were using the old guidelines (EYFS) don't know what is used now.

mrz Wed 03-Apr-13 12:15:15

They should be using the new profile as it is the legal requirement.
I should point out reporting to you that she is a 9 on the profile doesn't mean that they aren't teaching her using the NC because a score of 9 effectively means that is where she is working.

simpson Wed 03-Apr-13 12:31:54

That is true....

They did give me her learning objectives for each subject.

It just a bit meh to hear "yes your DD is doing really well. She is a 9 in x y z" when you heard exactly the same thing at the end of nursery/start of reception iyswim.

Teacherwith2kids - I asked at parents eve if her end of year school report would have her NC levels in it and I was told probably not but they would check...

mrz Wed 03-Apr-13 12:38:23

The new profile gives "emerging" "expected" and "exceeding" for each of the 17 ELGs

simpson Wed 03-Apr-13 12:40:12

Oh so should numbers 1-9 not be used at all?

simpson Wed 03-Apr-13 12:41:01

And I am sure DD's teacher talked about 15 areas, not 17....

mrz Wed 03-Apr-13 12:50:36

There are only 7 areas of learning

The 3 prime areas are communication and language; physical development; and personal, social and emotional development.

plus 4 specific areas

• literacy;
• mathematics;
• understanding the world; and
• expressive arts and design.

Periwinkle007 Wed 03-Apr-13 14:24:25

We haven't been given any idea yet in terms of numbers for EYFS or NC levels. I assume we will get some sort of mention at the end of the summer term.

some list appeared in the reading diaries recently which said she was at 40-60% for reading but given she reads chapter books fluently I have no idea what this is in relation to.

I am anticipating her coming out as average to slightly above average but personally I would say she started reception (having missed last year's intake by a couple of days because she was born so overdue) at above average and just hasn't been taught anything ACADEMIC that she didn't know back in september. She has however learned group work, speaking in front of people, culture, topics etc so she has learned other things. I just think it is a shame that she would happily have done proper maths, writing more stories (she writes books at home), geography (she can point to lots of countries on a globe and tell you things about them) etc.

mrz Wed 03-Apr-13 14:41:38

40-60 months developmental stage perhaps?

mrz Wed 03-Apr-13 14:43:27

sorry i missed off the + it's 40-60+ months

Periwinkle007 Wed 03-Apr-13 14:46:10

ah that would make more sense - thanks. I did like the wording they used to use in the EYFS about up to 5, no mention of the poor kids who are already 5 when they start in reception. at least 60+ months includes them too.

Periwinkle007 Wed 03-Apr-13 14:48:40

I think the new categories are much better than grading 1-9. much easier for teachers to know whether someone is one or another rather than trying to work out if they are a 7 or an 8 for example and I don't think as parents we need an exact number, just are they where they should be, slightly behind or slightly ahead.

mrz Wed 03-Apr-13 14:53:08

The old EYFS also had the 60+ months category to be fair.

I think lots of teachers are struggling with the new profile because it is so subjective and the results of the pilot studies shows fewer children meeting the "good level of development" level than with the old profile.

Periwinkle007 Wed 03-Apr-13 15:11:37

did it? oh, on all the photocopies/leaflets from the EYFS that we were given all just said 'up to 5, up to their 5th birthday' etc. it was the introductory documents and they weren't produced by the school, we had the same wording on the ones from a separate preschool.

thats funny though because on the surface of it it seems it should be less subjective than trying to finely grade children but then I didn't read it in a lot of detail. I am just relieved that in 4 terms time both my children will be through it. I still personally am not sure why there is a need for an EYFS to be honest. kids used to manage perfectly well without one for preschools and reception could just be included as early entry KS1 stuff

mrz Wed 03-Apr-13 15:23:08

The new ELGs are so broad and teachers are expected to make a judgement of "emerging" "expected" or "exceeding"

Periwinkle007 Wed 03-Apr-13 16:02:17

oh I see. from one extreme to the other then. I do wonder who comes up with all these things. My mum is relieved she got out of teaching when she did...

simpson Wed 03-Apr-13 16:47:30

I wonder if that is why DD's school are still using the old one...

Periwinkle - your DD sounds like mine, she is into pointing to countries on the globe too and I think she is ready for more "academic" work certainly wrt reading and writing.

Numeracy she is pretty bog standard grin

mrz Wed 03-Apr-13 16:58:07

they reduced the number of ELGs from 117 to 17 but they just incorporated the old ones into much broader new ones

Periwinkle007 Wed 03-Apr-13 17:00:55

yes I think she is. today she has written a story about an elephant called Alice. not sure what this elephant was doing but it did involve a vacuum cleaner and a feather duster! Maths - she used to be good at that too, subtraction in her head before she turned 3. then they told her at preschool she has to use her fingers and now at school she has to use a numberline and she has ended up all confused and now can't seem to do any maths at all half the time.

She definitely has a fascination for other countries and cultures, travel, nature, science. everything really which is brilliant. Am just ordering these books for her
http://www.thebookpeople.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/qs_product_tbp?storeId=10001&catalogId=10051&langId=100&productId=300985

simpson Wed 03-Apr-13 17:51:23

grin DD wrote a story yesterday about a cat who couldn't sleep and no adults were allowed to put the cat to bed!!!

She can add ok (with or without a number line - but she has not used a number line at school yet) but subtraction is tougher for her...

Can't open your link, sorry blush Anything to get DD reading non fiction would be helpful!!

Periwinkle007 Wed 03-Apr-13 18:42:17

oh sorry - perhaps it is because it is a link to buy something. if you go to the Book People website and search for The Nature Year Collection. it is a set of 12 books, one for each month about nature around the world, so autumn in New England, badgers getting ready for winter.

They aren't reading books but I don't think that matters. they say age 7+ so I think they will be pitched at the right sort of level. Illustrations rather than photos I think but one of the covers shows salmon leaping and that kind of thing so they sound interesting.

My daughter loves the usborne beginners non fiction books, they are nice and simple - supposedly level 8 or 9 reading band depending on the title and the pictures are good. She is far more interested in non fiction than fiction. in fact she has just begged me to buy her the spider one! (I HATE spiders but have tried so hard not to let the girls realise that and she thinks they are fantastic!)

simpson Wed 03-Apr-13 19:13:23

DD seems to be the opposite and loves reading Flat Stanley, Roald Dahl, Rainbow Fairies etc.

We have some non fiction books (a set of 40 My Animal Kingdon books for £5 from a charity shop) and she will not touch them....

Will check out the book people though grin

Periwinkle007 Wed 03-Apr-13 19:35:13

We haven't got anywhere with Flat Stanley or Roald Dahl. She likes the Rainbow Fairies but I think she is much more confident with the early reader ones rather than full blown chapter books. I don't think she likes being parted from colour pictures. I found a reading book from when I was at school (a wide rangers green one? think thats right) and she was horrified at just how boring it was to look at. I have lots of books for her when she DOES feel ready for them, my parents kept almost all our books in their loft and they have been transferred to ours so a mix of Enid Blyton of all sorts, Roald Dahl, The Bullerby Children, all the old ones and then Rainbow Fairies, humphrey the hampster, Mammoth Academy, Tilly Tiptoes among others that Grandma has bought for her for when she wants them. our house is full of books but then I know that when she does start reading them they can work their way through them so quickly and we have 2 daughters and then a niece as well so they won't be wasted.

Book people prices are so good. they have a mermaid set at the moment - 12 books for £9.99 I think. Thats where I get most of the birthday presents for classmates from.

learnandsay Wed 03-Apr-13 19:51:50

Periwinkle, do you know what specifically is confusing your daughter when she uses number squares and number lines? My daughter flips between abacus, fingers and counting in her head. (She can't use number squares and number lines on her own but she can if she's supervised.)

learnandsay Wed 03-Apr-13 19:53:47

Number squares and lines are abstract concepts, albeit simple ones. My daughter hasn't really got the concept of units, tens and so forth. So she needs to be spoonfed on squares & lines.

Periwinkle007 Wed 03-Apr-13 20:03:00

my daughter was more than happy in her head and now she is being told that is wrong and you HAVE to count it along a number line. so I think she is now thinking it must all be harder than it actually is.

so say I said to her 'if I had 10 sweets and you ate 3, how many would be left?' she was instantly able to answer 7 before she turned 3. NOW however she starts faffing with her fingers saying 'I have to use my hands and count back 3' it is ridiculous. It might help some children but she had kind of bypassed that stage with no problem but now thinks that is what you have to do so it slows her down. I am not sure whether to tell her you don't have to do that just do it however it is easier for her or let school do it their way. We had the same thing with phonics. she was upset one day because they asked her to do her reading and she missed being taught 'o' and was saying she would never know how to read o and she therefore would never learn to read. I was puzzled and said 'but you already know o, you are reading level 5 books' and it turned out she thought they had to learn the actions and didn't realise they were learning the actions in order to learn how to read.

mrz Wed 03-Apr-13 20:05:09

young children need to use concrete manipulatives (like an abacus) to develop number concepts
I would use a bead string or counting stick
www.tts-group.co.uk/shops/tts/Products/PD1723260/50-Bead-String/?rguid=bfa55b90-e294-44cc-853f-941d9538e457

learnandsay Wed 03-Apr-13 20:13:11

I think you need to have a word with the teacher then. Are you saying that she can do the sum perfectly well without the squares and lines but when she uses them she gets it wrong? (And are you positive?) If that's true then it's not right and the teacher needs to take a step back. Teachers shouldn't be confusing children and taking away their existing abilities.

Taffeta Wed 03-Apr-13 20:13:29

My DD finally "got" the number square concept today, having had practice with it with me at home for the last year, as well as using it at school.

I've tried to show her a million times how its made up, ie subtract 10 go up a level, so subtract 9 do it diagonally upwards etc. I must have shown her this 100 times but its never, ever gone in. Until today. We have done no Maths at home for about 2 weeks ( I have been doing extra with her at home as she was behind last year ) and today, with no prompting, when asked to minus 9 went diagonally up instead of counting out, and did the same and counted on one with 8. I was open mouthed. And it led me to think again with DD that she gets it when she gets it, not when I want her to get it. grin

Periwinkle007 Wed 03-Apr-13 20:17:09

I can see what you mean and I think we used abacuses briefly at school but I think what I find frustrating is that she now thinks you can't DO such a thing as work it out in your head.

I can understand having to learn to do it with basic stuff so that they can then picture it with harder stuff but again it is a one size fits all thing that ALL children need this when I am not entirely sure all of them do. I was always under the impression (obviously wrongly) that number lines etc were to help until they could do it in their head but if they can already picture it all in their head and do it like that how do we know that they need to learn how to do it again and then have to teach them to do it in their heads all over again when they already could. mind I am from a family of mathematicians so perhaps I just wrongly assumed she had an ability with numbers.

learnandsay Wed 03-Apr-13 20:26:26

There's nothing wrong with the number lines and squares any more than there is wrong with scales, rulers, or any other measuring tool. But you have to know how to read it. It's the teacher's job to "teach" the child how to read the tools. That's the whole point of having them in the classroom in the first place. The teacher is not supposed to shove the tool in the child's face and say here use that. There are a few concepts that the child has to be aware of before the tool will make sense to her. To be honest, if the teacher doesn't know these things then she's not a very good teacher. Are you sure that's what the teacher is doing? It sounds a bit odd.

Periwinkle007 Wed 03-Apr-13 20:36:01

no sorry I am not being clear - she gets it right either way but it is just this thing that she now thinks you CAN'T possibly do it in your head. This started in preschool when she suddenly started talking about a counting nose ? and now she assumes that you HAVE to use an aide of some sort which I find frustrating. I think she is very conscientious and always does what she is told (outside of the house anyway) so whereas another child would just think 'stuff this the answer is 7' and not worry about counting it she now takes the time to count backwards or whatever it is. She still says number work at school is too easy so it obviously isn't an issue as such but I find it sad that a child who could do this in her head now thinks mental arithmetic isn't possible or that she can't do it in her head. sorry - mountain out of molehill I know.

simpson Wed 03-Apr-13 20:42:30

It was kind of like this for reading with DD.

She could read fluently when she started reception (at the level she was on, not chapter books or anything but did not need to sound out words really) but having worked with kids in a group who were just blending and hearing the teacher telling them to "sound it out" she thought she had to go back to sounding out every word...

Luckily she soon got bored of that idea grin

Numeracy wise she is pretty bang on where she should be I think and has only just got the hang of doing say 15 + 3 and not counting from 1 to get the answer. She can use a number line by herself for addition but we have not tried subtraction yet.

She is nowhere near ready to be learning tens and units and using a number square and tbh I am going to leave it to someone who knows what they are doing (ie not me!!)

Periwinkle007 Wed 03-Apr-13 20:46:34

oh gosh yes - I wouldn't get involved with number squares or anything. her school use some sort of arch or rainbow or something apparently anyway so I have NO IDEA with that.

learnandsay Wed 03-Apr-13 20:58:43

I guess it only becomes an issue if the child is falling behind even when the teacher is explaining how to do it.

Periwinkle007 Wed 03-Apr-13 21:03:31

true Learnandsay.

simpson Wed 03-Apr-13 21:04:15

Hopefully if they are being taught/shown correctly it won't be an issue.

I have never once shown DS how to use a number line, number square and he is doing ok.

However I accept it is not the same for all kids sad

learnandsay Wed 03-Apr-13 21:16:57

Isn't that the type of thing Ferguson was saying, there are some kids who can't keep up. It would be nice if kids just had to get shown how and they could do it.

simpson Wed 03-Apr-13 21:22:36

There are bound to be as each child is different and might learn things in different ways.

DS is very good at numeracy but likes numbers and facts, he is not particularly visual so finds lines of symmetry tougher.

learnandsay Wed 03-Apr-13 21:34:10

Maybe it's not such a problem with a detail here and a technique there but you do hear the occasional post saying my child is x years behind his cohort. Sometimes there is an accompanying explanation or medical condition but sometimes there isn't.

learnandsay Wed 03-Apr-13 21:36:23

I'm willing to bet there are parents out there whose child is x years behind his cohort with no explanation and they won't (or can't) post on free websites asking for help and advice.

mrz Wed 03-Apr-13 22:10:19

IMHE parents whose child is struggling for no apparent reason often post on anonymous websites asking for help because they have nowhere to turn.

learnandsay Wed 03-Apr-13 22:29:24

If they do I think that's brilliant. But Ferguson's post said quite a few heartbreaking things. And one of them was he put notes in the bookbag that went unread because "mum doesn't read so well." It's headbreaking to conceive that a child's education can be stumped because of its parents'/'s education(s) The two should not be linked but I guess there is no way of unlinking them. I guess if school can't unlink them then no one can. (I guess this is why the ofstead free school meals progress plan is doomed to fail.)

mrz Wed 03-Apr-13 22:36:05

I've put notes in book bags that went unread too. The mum who left her son at the childminders because she needed to go to the gym or spa after work because that was her "me time" so when she picked him up she didn't have time to hear him read or even talk to him ...I actually find this more heartbreaking.

simpson Wed 03-Apr-13 22:38:22

There are quite a few parents at my DC school who do not support their child at home for whatever reason.

Likewise there are quite a few parents I am sure (not necessarily at my DC school) who want advice in order to help their child who may be behind and do post on forums as they don't get the support from the teacher.

Just because a child finds academic work tough does not mean they have unsupportive parents.

However since commencing reading in my DC school there are a few heart breaking cases sad

learnandsay Wed 03-Apr-13 22:39:26

I'm so glad I'm not a teacher. I'd be had up for assaulting certain parents on such regular occasions that I'd never have any time to do any teaching.

simpson Wed 03-Apr-13 22:41:09

Yes mrz there are parents who cannot listen to their kids read as they don't speak English well enough, kids who are in care, kids who are one of 6 or 7 so the parents don't have time to help their child (and ignore letters home). Also the child who has a full time nanny when their mother is a SAHM.

mrz Wed 03-Apr-13 22:41:56

I agree simpson. Ferguson's post gave a very simplistic view of things.

simpson Wed 03-Apr-13 22:42:25

Forgot to mention the kids who have not had breakfast and the kids who fall asleep in class because they have been up playing computer games/watching tv till 2am (this is primary school).

simpson Wed 03-Apr-13 22:44:59

Can you tell I have just written my module on this for an NVQ level 3 TA course??!?

mrz Wed 03-Apr-13 22:45:38

and the computer games are rated 18...or the 7 year old who has been watching porn all night ...or the ones kept awake when the police raided the home looking for drugs or ....

learnandsay Wed 03-Apr-13 22:46:29

The lack of ability to speak English is a fair enough point. If you can't speak English what can you do? (learn) I know Asian parents who do just that. But it's the hard way of going about it. I read to and listen to my child reading in German though my German is all but non existent. There is a fine line between unable to listen and unwilling to listen. But the line does exist.

learnandsay Wed 03-Apr-13 22:49:01

Oh, for christ's sake, girls! You just have to be talking about a tiny minority, pleaeaease!

mrz Wed 03-Apr-13 22:51:31

regardless they are all expected to reach the same level at the same point in time.

simpson Wed 03-Apr-13 22:56:02

And the children who don't get put to bed but are expected to put themselves to bed when they are tired (I know a lot of people who expect their young children to do this). Or that they don't have their own bed in the first place (my eyes have been well and truly opened).

One small child in a reception class I help in constantly talks about the violent computer games they play (18) and their parents wonder why they are called in because he is beating up other children...

LandS - I know plenty of parents who don't learn English (for whatever reason).

simpson Wed 03-Apr-13 22:57:38

Mrz - to me a child who has zero or little support at home (or a chaotic life) should be applauded more for doing well at school than the high flyers ( who usually do have a supportive background).

mrz Wed 03-Apr-13 22:58:04

i remember one little boy telling me he wanted to go back to the homeless hostel when he grew up because he had a bed and sausages for breakfast

learnandsay Wed 03-Apr-13 22:59:30

Leave! Go to a nice place where there is plenty of fresh air and the children all skip happily in the sunshine and get put to bed by doting mothers (who can read.)

simpson Wed 03-Apr-13 23:04:54

Mrz - that is so sad. One child I know has just been taken into care finally after ages of waiting (I guess SW were trying to resolve things) and this child has many behavioural issues. You wonder how they will ever get over their issues sad

LandS - in an ideal world that would happen. One of my DD's best friends has been playing outside on the street unsupervised since she was walking (under a year old).

God, it makes the area I live in sound awful! It's not that bad!!

simpson Wed 03-Apr-13 23:06:53

But having said that I hope teachers do take things with a pinch of salt as DS (in yr1 at the time) wrote in class "when my mummy leaves me in the house on my own I like to play with my cars" blush

Obviously I have never left him alone, he must have meant downstairs alone or something...

learnandsay Wed 03-Apr-13 23:10:11

I live in a leafy area and as you know I'm all pushy parenty even though I believe that the category shouldn't exist. I'm twisted up every day about the issue of fostering/adopting. But I'm worried that the "I can do good for this kid" rather than I actually want this kid is the problem.

simpson Wed 03-Apr-13 23:32:26

I would love to foster but (a) my house is probably not big enough and (b) I don't think DS is emotionally able to cope with it (he is v sensitive and would get very attached I think).

simpson Wed 03-Apr-13 23:33:16

(c) I am an LP and probably biting off more than I can chew grin

learnandsay Wed 03-Apr-13 23:41:49

I'm probably more interested in adopting than fostering (because that can be a discipline in itself) I've got the resources. But my problem is that I'm so filled with ideas of wrong and right that SS are going to think I've just stepped off planet Mars. Their first question will be: Why do you want another child?
And my answer will be: Well, I don't really, but I live in a leafy area.

simpson Wed 03-Apr-13 23:54:38

grin grin

Not the answer they will be expecting!!

learnandsay Thu 04-Apr-13 00:00:04

I'm doing a Kylie with the adopting thing. I can't get it out of my head but I can't make any sense of it either. And posts like Ferguson's make the issue worse. How come doing good is so complicated?

mrz Thu 04-Apr-13 07:28:00

Many children in the system just need stability and unconditional love ... I'm afraid it's a sad fact that many are badly damaged

Periwinkle007 Thu 04-Apr-13 08:34:27

yes my eyes were well and truly opened when my mum went back to teaching and me from my private girls school suddenly realised just HOW hard so many kids have it. She taught in one of the most deprived areas in the south of England (one of the reasons they scrimped to send me private) and I was 10 when she went back to work. 10 year olds having to get their 3 or 4 younger siblings up and ready for school because mummy was unconscious from drinking, unable to find any food for their breakfast, kids who had no idea what shampoo was until they were taken into care, kids who genuinely had no idea what it was like to be loved. The ones whose families didn't speak English were almost no problem because at least they loved their children and they tried, even in some cases finding a neighbour to help listen to the children read.

We may live in a developed country where people should have no problem with access to food and medicine etc but there are an enormous number of children who have no access to love and there lies something I can't get my head around, are the children in very poor countries who have nothing but are always smiling almost better off because their family love them more than anything.

If I had any confidence in my parenting skills and hadn't had such bad PND I would have loved to foster but I am not strong enough to do it. I wish I was.

simpson Thu 04-Apr-13 17:43:42

Periwinkle - I have just ordered those books from the book people smile

Periwinkle007 Thu 04-Apr-13 19:26:39

hope they are good then! mine were posted out this afternoon so will probably get them tomorrow - along with a load of other goodies. I do love my book people parcels. DD today announced that she was not reading any picture books any more she just wanted to read chapter books and has read 2 of the Usborne First readers this afternoon. Now she is lining up what to read tomorrow, can't decide between the magic toyshop and a Julia Donaldson compilation.

simpson Thu 04-Apr-13 19:35:00

DD has never really read picture books (the school try to help by sending home Mog the Cat type books) but I think they are filed in her mind under books I read to her grin

I ordered the mermaid books too. As she loves the easier Rainbow Fairy ones (and FS).

But miracle of miracles, the read a few pages of a non fiction book today (about Polar bears).

Periwinkle007 Thu 04-Apr-13 20:12:09

polar bears eh, well why not I suppose. Is she interested in any natural science type stuff? my 2 love weather, volcanoes, planets and things which helps with the non fiction fascination.

the mermaid books were a good bargain I think.

thats not a bad thing if she thinks chapter books are what she should read, it is the next step so that makes it easier for her to move on to them. The picture type ones my daughter likes are good old Winnie the Witch, Katie Morag, The Large Family, James Mayhew's Katie in the art gallery ones, The Lighthouse Keeper ones, Charlie and Tess (can't remember the author) and a load of other quite random ones my mum has had put away for years. The draw of the usborne story ones is the ribbon bookmark and the style of the pictures. She loves drawing so anything with good illustrations is popular with her.

simpson Thu 04-Apr-13 20:21:01

She has never really read any nature books (which is why I got the ones you suggested).

She has been learning about planets/space at school which seems to fascinate her.

She has also been telling me all about Noah's Ark (I assumed that she had been learning it at school but her teacher said no - but then said she had watched her and DD had been taking herself to the reading corner and re-reading the same book every day on Noah's Ark grin).

She loves Frog and Toad books and Mercy Watson books (chapter books about a pig).

Periwinkle007 Thu 04-Apr-13 21:07:16

ooh I will look up Mercy Watson books then. thanks.

The Usborne planets one in their beginners range is good. I have a geology degree so my two are used to volcano stuff (pictures from our travels etc) and physical geography because it is one of my main interests.

simpson Thu 04-Apr-13 23:33:41

DD loved all the little books on nature, planets, animals etc she got from McDonald's.

Mercy Watson books are fab, I think there are 5 or 6 of them.

She still loves Topsy and Tim books and reads them to herself all the time but will only read the old style smaller ones as they look like chapter books!!!

She also likes the Happy Families books (mr Creep the Crook etc) and Michael morpurgo (Snakes and Ladders and another one called Conker about a dog).

simpson Thu 04-Apr-13 23:34:39

I have an usborne book about space actually (charity shop) I must show it to her....

Periwinkle007 Fri 05-Apr-13 08:42:53

oh kids are picky aren't they!

I just looked at our non fiction ones, they are a mix of the Usborne beginners ones, kingfisher learners (think thats what they are called) and we have a few of Sainsburys own reading scheme ones, nice photos in those. I really like the usborne ones myself I must admit, at least they are interesting to listen to and the pictures are good. I think most children like them so hopefully your daughter might.

Have you tried her with a couple of the fireflies ones on the Oxford Owl Website? My daughter was fascinated by the True Stories one about Alex Brychta who does the Biff chip and kipper drawings. He fled from Czeckoslovakia as a child when Russia invaded. She found it really interesting. She also liked Things that Sting and one about Sport Then and Now. Whilst Biff and co drive me nuts I really like the fireflies ones, they manage to introduce tables, timelines, pie charts etc as well as contents and index pages. These were all stage 7 or 8 but are actually reading bands of 9 and 10. There is one about making a book at Stage 10 which my daughter wants to read online too.

We don't have any Topsy and Tim ones. My mum was sure she had kept them all from us being little but when they moved house a couple of years ago we never found them in the loft with all the others so she was really disappointed as at some point they must have gone out accidentally. I did find Little Grey Rabbit though which brought back memories, I used to love little grey rabbit. Alison Uttley was the author I think.

We haven't tried Happy Families either. She is about to tackle a Magic Toyshop one by Jessie Little. looks quite a nice little book so fingers crossed she will enjoy it.

simpson Fri 05-Apr-13 11:10:53

The problem with reading non fiction online is DD has a thing about the glossary and will keep flicking to the back (not so easy on a tablet) <<sigh>>

Am going to the library later so I might see what they have.

Periwinkle007 Fri 05-Apr-13 14:01:48

have a look in TKMaxx for one of the kids encyclopaedias if she likes the glossary. We got 2 great ones in there for £3.99 each. one is a question and answer book and the other an encyclopaedia and they are nice for just looking things up and reading little bits.

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