Headteacher and five staff suspended!

(352 Posts)
Educationalshame Tue 26-Feb-13 20:55:08

Have name changed so not to out myself. My children go here sad
I received a letter and that is it. Teachers will not really speak about it to me. What do I do?? Reading the attitudes of the other members of staff "What are teachers supposed to do?" Does not reassure me. Advice? Thoughts? Anyone..

Educationalshame Tue 26-Feb-13 20:55:52
piprabbit Tue 26-Feb-13 20:58:37

It all sounds very sudden and I would be expecting the Governors to issue some sort of communication to parents to tell you what the next steps are going to be.
Perhaps your next step should be to ask the Governors when they are planning to communicate - especially in respect of who is in charge of the management team at the moment.

piprabbit Tue 26-Feb-13 20:59:09

Sorry - x-post with your link.

Educationalshame Tue 26-Feb-13 21:02:19

I have asked in person on the phone and by email. They just tell me that I will be kept updated. I feel like my faith in the school has vanished I am so shocked and saddened by this. sad

piprabbit Tue 26-Feb-13 21:02:26

OK - now I've read the article, I'm not sure that there's much you can do until the investigation is complete. It does sound worrying and I'm sure that there will be changes made at the school so that the children return to a safe environment. It sounds like the council are on the ball - perhaps they can reassure you that the school is going to be a safe place?

Greensleeves Tue 26-Feb-13 21:09:43

Impossible to judge this on the DM article. I'd like to see a picture of the "cupboard", and read interviews with the Head and the parent of the aggressive 9yo.

Educationalshame Tue 26-Feb-13 21:10:12

sorry i didn't post the link on the OP. The council do seem to be on top of it. What is scary though is the fact it took a surprise visit to find this out. God knows how long it has been going on. I just do not want to send my children in now.

Mrsrobertduvall Tue 26-Feb-13 21:11:37

I am sure there will be a photo of said child and parents looking "sad" in the DM this week.

Educationalshame Tue 26-Feb-13 21:12:42

It was on the bbc news tonight as well. sad

Educationalshame Tue 26-Feb-13 21:12:58

The north west part.

learnandsay Tue 26-Feb-13 21:18:42

It's sad and stupid. They should bring back the cane and expelling pupils whenever necessary. If I was the head of that school the boy would have been well and truly dealt with long ago.

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numbum Tue 26-Feb-13 21:24:28

LOL at the 'sad mum' face with her 7 year old! Have you heard of the 'naughty cupboard' OP? The school I work in has a room children can go to to cool down but they're always with an adult.

learnandsay Tue 26-Feb-13 21:25:08

I could have a go, what were you looking for?

Educationalshame Tue 26-Feb-13 21:25:54

It is not just one boy though. The one boy that is being talked about is the one they actually saw being sat in the "Naughty room" at the time of the surprise inspection.

As a parent I heard about the reflection/quiet room. But to my understanding it was not the bloody PE/storage cupboard,and the children were always supervised.

lougle Tue 26-Feb-13 21:27:11

learnandsay you have no idea whether this child has SEN, whether they were on a behavioural management plan, whether physical intervention was in itself a trigger point.

The core principles of behavioural management strategies is deescalation. Any child in a rage is going to be further escalated by having their path 'blocked'. Putting a child in a hold must be a very last resort.

I don't know the details, so it's not for me to say whether the actions were essential or appropriate, but it certainly isn't just a case of 'dealing with that boy'.

This is why you're not a Head in a school. You think hitting pupils with a cane and expelling them is useful?!?

learnandsay Tue 26-Feb-13 21:30:20

For sure, they'd get a whack and a warning and if that didn't work they'd be out. There would be no misbehaving in my school.

piprabbit Tue 26-Feb-13 21:30:42

TBH it is probably safer right now that it has ever been - but I do understand your concerns. It must be a huge shock.

lougle Tue 26-Feb-13 21:31:00

Hands up whose signing up for learnandsay's school?

....................

Thought not biscuit

lougle Tue 26-Feb-13 21:31:36

<sigh> it's not necessarily 'misbehaving'. SEN? Heard of it?

LineRunner Tue 26-Feb-13 21:31:44

The LA is on top of it with emergency staffing.

Wouldn't be possible if the school were an academy, as academies are outside of LA control.

tethersend Tue 26-Feb-13 21:32:00

It is illegal to force a child to be alone in a room of any size against their will (i.e. locking them in or holding doors shut).

If the child was aggressive and hurting staff, the head should have trained staff in positive handling and behaviour management and investigated other provision should mainstream have proved unsuitable.

Redbindy Tue 26-Feb-13 21:32:41

No support for teachers trying to maintain discipline. Learnandsay is spot on, the posts under the original article are pretty reasonable too.

learnandsay Tue 26-Feb-13 21:34:17

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Educationalshame Tue 26-Feb-13 21:34:23

learnandsay

I have to drop my children off tomorrow to this very school and I am upset, angry and do not think i will be able to do it. Maybe I am over reacting but your comments are just not what I need to hear right now. I wanted advice that was all.

numbum Tue 26-Feb-13 21:36:45

Hands up whose signing up for learnandsay's school? About as many people who listen to her advice I imagine

TomDudgeon Tue 26-Feb-13 21:36:46

I would take them in. If they've been suspended that means they won't be there and everything will be monitored intensively. If anything it'll be a better place this week than it was a fortnight ago.
I understand your reticence though and guess you're slightly in shock

LineRunner Tue 26-Feb-13 21:36:47

OP have you had any communication from the Chair of Governors? - website, text, etc?

lougle Tue 26-Feb-13 21:37:42

"Kicking a teacher is misbehaving nobody needs to kick the teacher no matter how special their needs might be."

When a child is in a 'meltdown' they lose executive function. That is, they are no longer able to plan their actions and think through the consequences. They are merely reacting to the stimulus they receive.

The child goes into 'flight or fight' mode. If you block their flight they have no option at that point but to go into fight mode because they are not in control of their actions and they are not able to process that the person blocking their path is trying to keep them safe.

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Tue 26-Feb-13 21:37:46

EducationalSham - it must have come as a horrible shock to all of the parents. Especially reading the Daily Mail , they can make winning the lottery sound like the worst thing that could happen to someone. Read the article again with a critical eye - there's a lot of he said/she said and supposition... very little fact.

The teachers can't say anything sad They are in the awful position of having to keep quiet and not be able to talk about it. No matter what it makes them all look bad - I think a little compassion for the teachers, from the parents would go a long way right now.

It's hard to know what has gone on here - time will tell. But I'd put money on it not being anywhere near as bad as the paper is making out, nothing like it. Even the woman in the paper who claims her son was put in the small room they are referring to as a cupboard - I'd have to wonder about her... if it really is like an under stairs cupboard, why didn't she do anything about it and if lots of children have been put in there then why have none of them told their parents??

I would want to hear the teachers and the head teacher out before jumping to any conclusions.

I wouldn't be worried about sending your children in though, now more than ever they will be being handled with kid gloves.

Educationalshame Tue 26-Feb-13 21:39:35

I have been told that an investigation is still on-going and I will be kept up-to-date. That is the reply I get off everyone I try to communicate with.

ReallyTired Tue 26-Feb-13 21:40:07

Many special schools use a calm room to cope with a violent out of control child. We don't know how long the child was in the "cupboard" or even if it is a cupboard.

I could understand staff taking an out of control child into a padded room, but you would two members of staff to stay with the child. There is a difference between taking a child somewhere to calm down and locking them in a cell.

I suppose the difficulty is that schools are having to manage children major special needs without the resources or the training.

Feenie Tue 26-Feb-13 21:40:10

That story has changed since lunchtime - then it described the child attacking teachers with a knife he had taken from the kitchen.

learnandsay Tue 26-Feb-13 21:40:55

Maybe you should phone a family member then. In a forum you're going to get the opinion of anyone who wants to post one. Personally I think having disruptive children in classes of well behaved children is a phenomenally stupid idea. Children who want to kick teachers and shout and scream in lessons should go to a teacher-kicking shouty screamy school as far away as possible.

jamdonut Tue 26-Feb-13 21:42:53

" I just do not want to send my children in now."

Depends if your children are violently misbehaved,I would think. If they are ordinary reasonable children,there will be no reason to think that anything like that would ever happen to them.This child is obviously out of control if it needed that amount of people to sort him out. And to be fair, it is not likely that the "cupboard" will ever be used again now all this has happened , is it?

Feenie Tue 26-Feb-13 21:43:07

You don't know why a child is disruptive - sometimes children react to something horrible that has happened. Supposing your child suffered a terrible event and reacted badly - would you still want them sent away to a school as far away as possible? How would that be fair or helpful to the child?

numbum Tue 26-Feb-13 21:43:20

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Educationalshame Tue 26-Feb-13 21:45:01

I know they need to go in tomorrow it just has really shocked me. I know there has been complaints about this before but I never really took note as it was from another mum telling me. So did not know how truthful it was. My children have never said anything about this. They know the reflection room is there but they have never been sent to it.

learnandsay Tue 26-Feb-13 21:46:03

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BooksandaCuppa Tue 26-Feb-13 21:46:34

1) All behaviour is a form of communication

2) Behaviour (good or bad) does not happen in a vaccum

3) Neither of the above excuse bad behaviour but knowing nothing of the circumstances of this child/ren and the way they were dealt with, it would be extremely foolish to comment on the situation.

Educationalshame Tue 26-Feb-13 21:46:38

Feenie

No there was no knife involved.

Feenie Tue 26-Feb-13 21:48:02

I'm sure there wasn't - but that was what the DM saw fit to splash all over the story earlier today!

BooksandaCuppa Tue 26-Feb-13 21:48:06

And 4) [not that I believe in him] but 'There but for the grace of God go I'...

LineRunner Tue 26-Feb-13 21:48:13

Gosh, learnandsay, I won't personally attack you. Please come and debate with me.

So, these teacher-kicking shouty screamy schools as far away as possible - how would they work and be funded, then?

numbum Tue 26-Feb-13 21:48:27

Oh report me, see if I care. I've only said what others think

AmberLeaf Tue 26-Feb-13 21:48:34

I second that numbum.

OP this would worry me too, but as someone else said, little chance of anything like that happening now they are under the spotlight.

Feenie Tue 26-Feb-13 21:49:16

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Educationalshame Tue 26-Feb-13 21:50:43

Thank you. I guess I will have to just go with it and see what responses come from it all. I got the most upset tonight when I saw it on the 6 o clock news I think it really hit home sad

simpson Tue 26-Feb-13 21:51:03

As others have said many schools use a calming room to calm down pupils if/when the need arises. My DC school have a "sanction room" which seems to work well (in that none of the kids want to go in it!! But there is always an adult in the room).

Tbh at least now things are in the open and the LEA are very aware of what has been going on and nothing like this should be allowed to happen again. I would be angry though!!

MechanicalTheatre Tue 26-Feb-13 21:56:27

learnandsay, what would you then do with all the children who'd been kicked out of your school?

Oh yeah, nothing. They'd just be left to wander the streets.

Fucking great idea.

Rosyisgonnabeamummy Tue 26-Feb-13 21:56:44

Until you know the true course of events I would continue to send children to school but with lots of support - if they have something to tell you they won't get in trouble etc - you know the drill

I'd be more concerned about the continuity of education while 4 teachers aren't there. Have they got temps?

The flip side is that if said child was doing something which put his or someone else's LIFE at risk and they DIDN'T do anything - what would you say.

Also, why didn't they call the police who are trained in restraint ?

RibenaFiend Tue 26-Feb-13 21:58:05

Born in the 80's.
We weren't caned or hit in school. Being send to the head teacher was terrifying. Not because she was nasty but because "what would mum and dad say?" You knew 100% that mum and dad would back up the school, be ashamed of your behaviour and extend this with punishment and withdrawal of privileges at home.

Now: In my experience, a lot of parents fight you as a teacher, claiming that their DC fighting with another student in class is "just harmless kids." Or that if a DS or DD is verbally abusive then "you must have done something to deserve it." There seem to be no consequences in a lot of cases. Not all of course but in my school, a lot.

In some schools behaviour is a real problem. I do not condone this school a "policy" in any way but in some schools you genuinely feel like the children and parents have no respect for the system. Exclusion is seen as a "treat" it is devastatingly sad.

OP. if you're uncomfortable and in a position to then keep your DCs at home. You can always tell the LEA you will home educate them for a little, (there are lots of online resources that you can utilise) and apply for places in another school.

LynetteScavo Tue 26-Feb-13 21:58:56

OP, I think you can be certain your children won't be locked in any cupboards at this school anytime soon!

Are any of your children's class teachers suspended? If not, then I expect their day will remain pretty much unchanged, except they will have a new HT for now.

The suspended HT should have known better than to allow this practice, and it seems her attitude has filtered down through the staff. I think all staff will have had a bit of a wake up call now, and the temporary HT should ensure they know the appropriate way to deal with aggressive children in the future.

AmberLeaf Tue 26-Feb-13 21:59:14

One member of staff, who has not been suspended, said today: 'The issue is one of false imprisonment of a nine year old (because) the door on the small calming down room is lockable. This boy had really lost it. What were the staff supposed to do?

Maybe implement some sensible behavior management strategies?

LineRunner Tue 26-Feb-13 21:59:31

The Local Authority has found emergency staff.

learnandsay Tue 26-Feb-13 22:00:34

If you think that Kiaran Stapleton should have continued his education in a mainstream school then you can't be surprised at what happened. The list of children/youths who have been mollycoddled when they should have been disciplined and if necessary locked up is endless.

If someone is violent (for whatever reason) the best thing to do is put them somewhere where they can't do harm to other people. Nobody should be at the risk of harm because people are trying to understand somebody who is kicking pupils and members of staff.

School is for learning not for kicking people. Martial arts classes are for kicking people.

AmberLeaf Tue 26-Feb-13 22:00:46

why didn't they call the police who are trained in restraint?

Seriously?

Feenie Tue 26-Feb-13 22:03:14

Hmm, Telegraph describes a knife too.

LineRunner Tue 26-Feb-13 22:04:49

the best thing to do is put them somewhere where they can't do harm to other people

I terms of primary school children, learnandsay, where would this be and how would it be funded and run?

Educationalshame Tue 26-Feb-13 22:05:11

We have got the head teacher from another local school atm. All my children's teachers are there as normal. Apart from my Son's TA (SENCO). I am going to try again to speak to someone tomorrow before work but I doubt I will get any reassurance. I hope it will all be over very soon so I know the full details and can take appropriate action if needed of course. sad

learnandsay Tue 26-Feb-13 22:06:36

I bet schools which have a number of violent pupils don't want a constant stream of blue flashing lights and high-vis jackets criss-crossing the playground. Probably easier to just send the children and some teachers to a secure room out of the way.

Personally I have a much easier solution.

learnandsay Tue 26-Feb-13 22:07:24

It's already run, they're PRUs.

numbum Tue 26-Feb-13 22:07:40

And you apply that to 4/5/6 year olds L&S????

I've actually had a name change since my DD was attacked last year by a boy in her class (some people may remember my post). The boy in question is now her best friend. Children change, they aren't all as compliant as you'd expect

tanfastic Tue 26-Feb-13 22:08:58

Op, I have a 4 yr old primary school child in the same town as you but different school. I would try not to worry. From what I've read locally it's been blown way out of proportion and the dm article. Well it's the dm isn't it? Says it all.

'No support for teachers trying to maintain discipline.'

That may or may not be true, - but why should a small child be punished for it?

learnandsay Tue 26-Feb-13 22:10:26

You're damn right I'd apply it to anyone, my own children, my grandchildren, me, anyone. Good behaviour is good behaviour and bad behaviour is bad behaviour and there are consequences.

Feenie Tue 26-Feb-13 22:11:16

You haven't answered my question about your own dc, Lands.

LineRunner Tue 26-Feb-13 22:11:16

leanrandsay, Pupil Referral Units are very costly and ineffective for younger children, and they are rarely provided for primary school chidren who quite often need more appropriate specialised support either in mainsteam or in special provision.

What is your costed solution, I wonder.

numbum Tue 26-Feb-13 22:12:12

Yes, consequences involve being sent to a sensory room. You really should be more accepting of children who aren't as 'perfect' as your own

mummytime Tue 26-Feb-13 22:13:36

Learnandsay my school in the 80s before caning was banned, used it quite thoroughly, the same kids who were caned were still the same ones who got into trouble time and time again. Having a riot police van parked on my way home from school most days didn't stop violence either, or even big street fights.

Yes kids like me did worry about punishment/what our parents would say, but then we were the good kids. It seemed to make little difference to the bad ones. Oh and no-one told teachers the awful things going on (paedophiles and child prostitution, among others).

My DCs school has a sanctuary room, it is build into a space under the stairs, and is very small (I have been in it). However no child is put their against their will.

5madthings Tue 26-Feb-13 22:13:56

And Pru are crap and don't help, why anyone thinks its a good idea to put a group of difficult children together always puzzles me. They need one on one support and help to understand why they are acting this way.

learnandsay Tue 26-Feb-13 22:14:20

LineRunner, what "specialist provision" do you have in mind?

Feenie, I missed your question about my own children, but if any of them tried to kick a teacher, yes they would be expelled and yes there would be hell to pay at home.

HotheadPaisan Tue 26-Feb-13 22:15:10

Wonder what de-escalation strategies training they had and awareness of the signs he was going to lose control and what other options there were.

The exits are blocked when DS1 tries to get away, the older he gets the more likely he will respond ever more aggressively. There will be signs kids are about to lose control and there are many options for dealing it.

You can't prevent all losses of control but locking a kid in a cupboard is hardly the answer.

learnandsay Tue 26-Feb-13 22:15:33

I don't want to understand why they are doing it I just want them to do it somewhere else.

Educationalshame Tue 26-Feb-13 22:15:58

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-21584219

I will post a link sorry again it is not on the OP. This one is from the bbc.

Feenie Tue 26-Feb-13 22:16:43

I explained to you that many children suffer traumas and their behaviour suffers - sending them away would be cruel. What if your own dc had something horrible happen - would you still want her sent away? How would that help?

AmberLeaf Tue 26-Feb-13 22:16:58

After reading learnandsays thread about 'bad language and anti-social behavior in general' I suggest she home schools her child.

Clearly she has all the answers and couldn't possibly risk her child mixing with those swearing future serial killers.

lougle Tue 26-Feb-13 22:17:33

learnandsay ignorance is not becoming sad

LineRunner Tue 26-Feb-13 22:18:18

LineRunner, what "specialist provision" do you have in mind?

I would suggest, learnandsay, those things that work best now. If you have better costed solutions, we are all agog.

Good luck in Eastleigh, btw. I think UKIP might do quite well.

HotheadPaisan Tue 26-Feb-13 22:18:21

School have done brilliantly not to exclude DS1 and I am very grateful for that (he's only six). We just need to think a bit more about what should be done when DS1 is losing control in order to avoid it escalating even further.

numbum Tue 26-Feb-13 22:18:52

I don't want to understand why they are doing it I just want them to do it somewhere else.

I'm refraining from saying what I really want to say to that. I hope your DD's are more accepting of challenging/different children than you are

learnandsay Tue 26-Feb-13 22:19:03

If something happened to my daughter to make her want to kick teachers and shout and scream in class then I'd want her sent away to a special unit. You can call it whatever you like and fund it however you like.

Educationalshame Tue 26-Feb-13 22:19:13

Thank you for the support and reassurance smile I will see what tomorrow brings.

5madthings Tue 26-Feb-13 22:19:16

Well its obvious you don't care learnandsay thankfully there are people that do care. Most children aren't just violent for the hell of it and yes we should try and understand them and help them to learn how to behave. Most of the kids my dp works with are/can be violent, they have also suffered horrible abuse. Good job some people care or would you rather they were all locked up in an institution?!

Educationalshame Tue 26-Feb-13 22:20:30

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5madthings Tue 26-Feb-13 22:20:32

You would send you own child away? Nice.

Feenie Tue 26-Feb-13 22:21:14

If something happened to my daughter to make her want to kick teachers and shout and scream in class then I'd want her sent away to a special unit.If something happened to my daughter to make her want to kick teachers and shout and scream in class then I'd want her sent away to a special unit.

Even if it was because something awful had happened? shock

LineRunner Tue 26-Feb-13 22:21:28

OP I'm pretty sure the Local Authority has a massive resource invested in your DC's school now, so it should be fine.

learnandsay Tue 26-Feb-13 22:23:07

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LineRunner Tue 26-Feb-13 22:23:25

learnandsay Your posts are coming across as insane and deranged.

And still uncosted <frowns and tilts head>

5madthings Tue 26-Feb-13 22:23:31

Sorry op, your thread is being der-railed.

I understand it must be horrible and worrying but the school will be being monitered closely now and you say its not your children's teachers involved?

LineRunner Tue 26-Feb-13 22:24:52

OP I agree the school will be very closely monitored, so it should be ok.

tethersend Tue 26-Feb-13 22:25:12

As much as we should understand the reasons why some children are violent, all children MUST be safe at school.

I would like to see all teachers trained in effective behaviour management and positive handling techniques as part of ITT.

Educationalshame Tue 26-Feb-13 22:25:54

5madthings No not any of my children's teachers. My DS's TA has been though

ReallyTired Tue 26-Feb-13 22:26:03

I think that if a child takes a knife to school then its a police matter WHATEVER age the child is. Teachers cannot be expected to deal with that level of danger.

Teachers are not trained to deal with weapons.

NewYearsEvelyn Tue 26-Feb-13 22:26:30

This is not a straightforward situation. If you were the parents of children in the class who were threatened by this child, how would you react? What would you have wanted the staff to do? Would you have wanted this child removed from the classroom and your children kept safe? I think I would have.

In terms of the room being a cupboard, it is undoubtedly a DMism, ie an over-exaggeration of the facts and unlikely to be true.

Was there a knife involved? The Telegraph seem pretty sure there was. How would you react as a human being if confronted by a child with a knife? Even with training, this would be a difficult situation to handle. It's hard to know the severity of the 'offence' that caused this situation and the severity of the consequences doled out by the staff.

In terms of children with anger issues and difficult/challenging behaviour needing one to one support and understanding, how would that be funded exactly? We scarcely have enough funding in our school to pay for photocopying paper to produce resources for the classes we teach. I don't think that's gonna happen.

I know that children often have an escalation process with anger issues or behaviour, but they can also be unpredictable and quick to anger, with little time to put intervention strategies into place.

Regardless of what thoughts this triggers, any conclusions we reach are based on pure conjecture and without the facts, I wouldn't like to condemn the staff or the child involved in this.

letseatgrandma Tue 26-Feb-13 22:27:08
BooksandaCuppa Tue 26-Feb-13 22:27:17

Abuse, neglect, homelessness, hunger, bereavement, serious illness (self or family member), trauma, divorce, witnessing domestic violence...

The list of things which can cause violent behaviours are almost endless (and I've deliberately not included SENs such as autism spectrum and ADHD which might be considered fixed conditions). Any of these could happen to almost any child, regardless of their current familial and socio-economic background.

Not sure what else to say really.

5madthings Tue 26-Feb-13 22:28:02

Oh yes i agree tethers teachers need to be trained to deal with it. My dp has to re do his training on this every year, its a three day course? They recently changed the name of it but they are taught appropriate behavior management and handling techniques etc.

learnandsay Tue 26-Feb-13 22:28:11

I'm sure something awful happened to lots of society's most dangerous individuals. (We already know about some famous cases.) I don't really know if family loyalty to those individuals is a good thing or a bad thing.

But if one of my children became seriously antisocial I'd aim to have them put in a secure institution. I'd visit them. I'd still care about them. But I would protect everybody else from them. If it was the fault of another person then I'd try as hard as possible to get that person brought to justice.

5madthings Tue 26-Feb-13 22:29:35

That's crap about the ta, what support are they putting in place for your son?

numbum Tue 26-Feb-13 22:29:56

She says hypothetically....

lougle Tue 26-Feb-13 22:30:43

But if they were 4 years old and at school, you'd kick them out and make sure they went 'somewhere else' away from you....

ClayDavis Tue 26-Feb-13 22:30:51

If something happened to my daughter to make her want to kick teachers and shout and scream in class then I'd want her sent away to a special unit.

You've excelled yourself there learnandsay. That's shocking even for you.

OP, the LA and others will be keeping an eye on the school. The new head should take a look at any issues that may still exist and hopefully put some sort of action plan into place if necessary.

numbum Tue 26-Feb-13 22:32:24

OP, if the school are in the news then I'd assume they'd be doing their best to ensure nothing else goes 'wrong'. Just keep an eye on them once the media disappears

LineRunner Tue 26-Feb-13 22:33:49

I think that if a child takes a knife to school then its a police matter WHATEVER age the child is.

In this case the knife was obtained from school dinners. By a 9-year old. In Blackpool.

tethersend Tue 26-Feb-13 22:35:06

NYE, the only circumstances in which isolating a child in a room against their will would be legal is if it was a one-off incident and was ^reasonable, proportionate and necessary^- I would argue that if a child had a knife, then this would indeed be a reasonable and proportionate response provided the child was not a danger to themselves.

ReallyTired, some teachers are trained to deal with weapons- they just don't usually work in mainstream schools.

AmberLeaf Tue 26-Feb-13 22:37:09

The knife part of this story isn't definite though is it?

LineRunner Tue 26-Feb-13 22:37:17

Did they leave him with the knife in the locked room?

learnandsay Tue 26-Feb-13 22:38:05

Sorry, are we completely sure that the knife hasn't been invented by the media?

LineRunner Tue 26-Feb-13 22:39:07

Tbh, I think it looks worse for the teachers if he did have a knife (even a blunt one from school dinners) and then they locked him - 9 years old - in a small room with it.

HotheadPaisan Tue 26-Feb-13 22:39:14

Society hardly has a fine record for institutionising people considered by to be antisocial for various reasons. Starting at 5 is a bit harsh.

This isn't about this particular incident, it will be about the use of isolation or imprisonment in general. I've given carte blanche to school to deal with incidents however they deem appropriate, am having a think about that now.

My gut feeling is that some incidents could be avoided or de-escalated if caught early enough, for the others I would have to trust the security of the perimeter and leave a way open for him to get outside I think, or provide some other space he could go to.

LineRunner Tue 26-Feb-13 22:40:36

And if he didn't have a knife, then it wasn't about 'safety' for the school, it was wildly inappropriate and unhelpful punishment.

tethersend Tue 26-Feb-13 22:40:54

Regardless of whether or not a knife was involved, the school were clearly using forced isolation routinely as a behaviour management technique. They even had a designated room. This is against the law.

It's no wonder staff have been suspended.

learnandsay Tue 26-Feb-13 22:43:14

I think this is why there needs to be an inquiry. You can't let an out-of-control/violent nine year old with a knife outside the school to run around.

There are a lot of hard facts missing in this story.

ReallyTired Tue 26-Feb-13 22:45:25

In this case the knife was obtained from school dinners. By a 9-year old. In Blackpool.

It is still a police matter if a child has managed to get hold of a knife and is out of control. The police have the training, the equipment and experience to manage such extreme behaviour.

How would you feel if the police had decided to put a nine year old in the cells?

HotheadPaisan Tue 26-Feb-13 22:47:10

Anything can be a weapon to an out of control child, including themselves. There is a lot that can be done though to prevent it getting to that stage in the first place and to prevent the likelihood of it happening again.

learnandsay Tue 26-Feb-13 22:48:20

I'm not convinced that the police would find it necessary to put a nine year old in a cell. If the police can't deal properly with a disruptive nine year old then society is doomed.

LineRunner Tue 26-Feb-13 22:49:11

ReallyTired, you wrote "I think that if a child takes a knife to school..."

According the media reports, he didn't.

I agree though that if the teachers were that freaked out they shoud have called for Police help.

Why didn't they? Had they started using the locked-cupboard technique too compacently?

AmberLeaf Tue 26-Feb-13 22:49:26

Generally, if a situation with a primary aged child gets to a stage where calling the police is the answer, then the school have failed IMO.

HotheadPaisan Tue 26-Feb-13 22:50:10

The police wouldn't arrive in time to deal with the situation immediately. As a society we have to want to put the resources into dealing with these issues.

AmberLeaf Tue 26-Feb-13 22:50:19

Maybe they didn't call the police because in locking a child in a cupboard they were themselves breaking the law?

HotheadPaisan Tue 26-Feb-13 22:51:52

And we have to want to understand the many reasons children can behave like this and want to make a difference in how we respond to it.

amillionyears Tue 26-Feb-13 22:52:41

l&s is on the primary school threads a lot.Just primary school or gifted and talented usually.

LineRunner Tue 26-Feb-13 22:53:49

I think a 999 call, 'Child in immediate danger to himself or others, been locked in confined space,' would elicit a pretty quick response, if made.

So why wasn't it made?

I think that this will be the question for the staff to answer.

learnandsay Tue 26-Feb-13 22:54:26

It's possible that many schools have somebody who could disarm a nine year old. But even if he's disarmed, if he's in a destructive mood there's still the problem of what to do with him.

HotheadPaisan Tue 26-Feb-13 22:54:39

The use of 'I don't care how special their needs are' was beyond the pale I think.

NewYearsEvelyn Tue 26-Feb-13 22:55:26

Some kids can flip out with little or no warning. Some kids don't have an escalation process. Without knowing the full details of what happened, the background behind the incident and the way in which it was handled, it's too easy to hand out blame.

If the school summarily uses the isolation room as a matter of course, it's in the wrong and the investigation is the right course of action. Suspending so many staff members though? Surely that's a little heavy handed? But then, I don't know what the factors involved are, so can't do anything but speculate...and that's perhaps not the best course of action here.

Certainly in terms of the OP, I'd say that the school will probably be more secure and under closer scrutiny now this has happened than it was before. I'd be a bit concerned myself, if something like this had happened at my dd's school, but I'd talk to her and make sure she was comfortable with things before I made any decisions on what to do about it. I hope your kids haven't been affected too badly by this situation and that school doesn't become difficult for you as a result of this.

amillionyears Tue 26-Feb-13 23:00:32

Thats the bit that did it for me as well Hotheadpaisan.
Zero empathy.

ReallyTired Tue 26-Feb-13 23:00:46

"The police wouldn't arrive in time to deal with the situation immediately."

I disagree, the police respond as fast as humanly possible to a 999 call from a school.

"Generally, if a situation with a primary aged child gets to a stage where calling the police is the answer, then the school have failed IMO. "

Maybe the school has failed this particular child. However its better for teachers to admit defeat, allow the experts to defuse the situation than someone get hurt. It is better for the teachers to keep the other children out of the way.

The school can worry about the educational welfare of the child once no one is in danger.

zzzzz Tue 26-Feb-13 23:05:09

Add twenty or thirty years to your age. Would you want to live in an old people's home where they had a padded cupboard they locked you in if you misbehaved? It's against the law to imprison people, even if they are small and behaving really badly.

This wasn't ok. Putting children in a naughty cupboard if they misbehave is not ok.

letseatgrandma Tue 26-Feb-13 23:07:23

It does make you wonder why 6 members of staff need to be arrested. Surely, 5/6 teachers wouldn't have been wandering about the corridors? Wouldn't they have been in their rooms teaching, unless it was lunch/playtime, I suppose?? Are they support staff/LSAs/office staff?

LineRunner Tue 26-Feb-13 23:10:33

They were suspended, pending inquiries.

I imagine that perhaps they are to be asked about their role in a possible (inappropriate) unofficial policy, without prejudice.

HotheadPaisan Tue 26-Feb-13 23:10:39

I don't disagree with calling the police, absolutely schools should when needed, just thinking about the immediate response in terms of attempts to de-escalate. Again, the complaint seems to be about the use of this room though. If it was forced and locked isolation that is very bad.

difficultpickle Tue 26-Feb-13 23:13:17

Assuming the Telegraph story is correct then it is definitely a police matter. Five teachers plus the head seems a lot of suspensions. I assume the five teachers must have been involved in the incident, which makes me think that it must have been pretty serious to involve so many adults with one child.

edam Tue 26-Feb-13 23:13:58

Absolutely appalling. Whatever the details, clearly something has gone very badly wrong here. LEAs don't suspend six members of staff immediately for a trivial reason or a small misunderstanding. Schools have a duty of care to children - it's basic basic basic that staff have to know how to deal with challenging behaviour, whether the challenge is caused by trauma or SEND or whatever. You don't just lock children up, FFS.

LineRunner Tue 26-Feb-13 23:14:03

If I had had to lock a boy in a room with a knife, I would want Police help.

Otherwise I would (a) not lock him in a room, and (b) use my training and call others in the school to use theirs, to calm things down and get to the root of the problem - and also ask the LA for support for the future.

BooksandaCuppa Tue 26-Feb-13 23:14:52

Or it's more than one incident.

thornrose Tue 26-Feb-13 23:18:50

When I was a learning mentor I was based in a room with 3 other people. Within this room was a much smaller room, just big enough for a couple of chairs. We used it when we needed privacy, it did have a glass panel and windows.

On a couple of occasions we had to leave a child in the small room alone as they were completely out of control. My SENCO, who was amazing, had to hold the door handle at times! We had all had training in positive handling and behaviour management. The parents sometimes had to collect their child from this room and never had any objections.

I have a feeling this could have been reported by the Daily Mail in a way that made it sound much worse than it actually was. I suspect there is more to this story than meets the eye.

'Add twenty or thirty years to your age. Would you want to live in an old people's home where they had a padded cupboard they locked you in if you misbehaved'

But you weren't ACTUALLY misbehaving. Your hearing-aid no longer fit and you didn't hear what you were supposed to do, someone tried to get your attention but you coukdn't understand. To save face and buy time you just nodded but that was clearly the wrong response causing you to sense anger in the other person who then took your arm to guide you.

Angry person taking you somewhere reminded you of your Ex' severe beatings and you screamed and struggled causing another adult to get involved at which point you try to run, beating your path to the exist, before being over-powered and locked in a room.

tethersend Tue 26-Feb-13 23:27:53

"On a couple of occasions we had to leave a child in the small room alone as they were completely out of control. My SENCO, who was amazing, had to hold the door handle at times! We had all had training in positive handling and behaviour management. The parents sometimes had to collect their child from this room and never had any objections."

Thornrose, you and your SENCo were acting unlawfully. If you had had decent positive handling training you would have known that. You were very lucky that the parents had no objections and were not litigious.

ReallyTired Tue 26-Feb-13 23:28:34

StarlightMcKenzie lots of mental hospitals, special schools do have "calm rooms" and sadly they do get abused. Nursing home prefer to drug difficult clients or lock their difficult clients in their own room.

There is a difference between an autistic child choosing to retreat and being imprisoned. It is frightening how vunerable people of any age get abused.

thornrose Tue 26-Feb-13 23:34:45

We did have excellent training. There are rare occasions which are not textbook and decisions were made in the moment. We always completed serious incident paperwork.

Yes. I know [sadly]. I have seem loads of special schools at least.

In my ds', when he's disruptive, they give him a massage. Lol. Not sure I agree with that either tbh.

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Tue 26-Feb-13 23:54:37

Thonrose - that doesn't sound a million miles away from what has happened here.

Also, it's a lockable space, we don't know that it was locked.

It sounds like the room next door with the windows is the room they normally use as a 'calm down room' & I think quite possibly some of the reports from the children are about that room, not the smaller room without windows.

I think, as usual, the Daily Fail is picking and choosing the facts and frankly, the BBC are all 'sensationalise now and quietly retract later'.

ES - as I said earlier, I think the kids will be more than fine at school, whatever has or hasn't happend thus far, they will be taking pains to make sure the kids are OK now - they have a million eyes on them.

I think the papers etc have blown it all of proportion and quite possibly whoever took action in the first place has done so without actually listening to those involved.

I also think it's better for the children to go in and be a part of what is going on than to be kept at home in the dark and getting half truths from their friends.

But you have to do what you think is right for you and your kids - no one (sensible) would blame you if you kept them home this week.

zzzzz Wed 27-Feb-13 00:00:47

thornrose. That sounds awful.

Muppeeeto Wed 27-Feb-13 00:06:57

The room was lockable, not, the room was locked.

There is a huge difference. Do any of the articles mention it was actually locked, or did I miss that bit.

Several rooms in my child's school are lockable, included the 'padded room'. That doesn't mean the locks are used.

thornrose Wed 27-Feb-13 00:08:34

Sorry it sounds awful but these children were in danger of hurting themselves or others. We tried so hard and this was the last resort.

PeneloPeePitstop Wed 27-Feb-13 00:10:33

Have reported the anti inclusion disablism.

zzzzz Wed 27-Feb-13 00:11:43

If your neighbours had a padded under stairs cupboard, with or without lock (frankly I don't give a fuck we've already been told nice "excellently trained" staff hold the door if needs be), you'd be calling SS not justifying its existence.

middleeasternpromise Wed 27-Feb-13 00:13:18

what do your children say about their experiences at school ? If they are telling you they have mistreated then report their concerns if not wait and see the outcome of the investigation. In the meantime reassure them that you want to know if they are ever unhappy and that theres nothing they cannot tell you even when they have been a bit in the wrong. Teach your children to do whats asked of them if its reasonable and to tell you when things are wrong and you wont go far wrong - the most important thing is them come home to you and feel safe enough to tell you what concerns them but also what was good. If they cant tell you anything good be concerned!

thornrose Wed 27-Feb-13 00:14:08

Zzzz I have a dd with SEN, I would not do anything to anyone's child that I wouldn't do to my own, if that makes sense? It really isn't about locking them up for misbehaviour.

LineRunner Wed 27-Feb-13 00:16:17

In the absence of facts, I suppose threads like this tend to become about attitudes.

zzzzz Wed 27-Feb-13 00:23:31

thornrose if its done more than once to the same individual, I would say it is part of the plan to manage that behaviour. That isn't acceptable to me and I wouldn't accept it for my child.

A small room described as the "naughty cupboard" is being used as a threat. It's clear that it has been used more than once in this way.

What makes me sad is that "chill out spaces" are such a good idea for children that are over stressed.sad.

middleeasternpromise. And what about the voiceless ones who can't communicate what has happened to them?

thornrose Wed 27-Feb-13 00:36:16

Ok, to clarify, it was generally a one off, a "couple of occasions" referred to same treatment, different child. Anyway I'm muddying the waters and don't want to derail the thread.

middleeasternpromise Wed 27-Feb-13 00:39:43

zzzzz not sure what a totally non communicative child with no communication agreement would be doing in a school like this - thats not safeguarding! I would wonder about a parent allowing that ..... but OP if you have let your totally non communicative child with no means of communicating to you then I think zzzzz is right - you need to do something about that!

zzzzz Wed 27-Feb-13 00:44:26

I don't know what a "no communication agreement" is but of course there are children who can't communicate in Primary schools! shock. There are also kids who can't walk, hear or see, plus ,any other sn, the same as in the general population.

middleeasternpromise Wed 27-Feb-13 00:54:46

Well it means even though a child has difficulties there is an agreement about how to communicate with them - other wise everyone is just accepting 'they cant communicate' - and you end up with a 'voiceless child who cant communicate what has happened to them'. No one sends their child into this situation and allows it to be the case at home - EVERY child can be communicated with its about how you make that happen. The OP wants to know how she deals with their children in this situation - and if youre point is its no good asking them because they might be voiceless then the OP really needs to find out if thats the case and how to communicate with them. Having a problem with walking hearing or seeing shouldnt really stop parents asking them if they are OK at school and checking out how they are feeling.....

zzzzz Wed 27-Feb-13 01:00:00

I'm sorry I think you misunderstood me eastern. I didn't mean OPs kids had communication problems I meant what about children who did.

And no it isn't always possible to for a child to communicate what happened at school today regardless of how much parents try to facilitate that level of communication.

middleeasternpromise Wed 27-Feb-13 01:23:46

Whats the alternative though for the OP in the face of this terrible thing happening at her childrens school - shes got to send them there each day (or not) and shes asking what to do. The starting point has to be - if she sends them - how does she reassure herself they are OK and my point was she needs to check out if she has good communication with them and feels shes in a situation where she can trust that communication to reassure her they can tell her if things are OK - if not she cant really feel OK about sending them in. Sometimes the organisations under investigation are the safest places as everyone is watching - much safer than sending them to a new school who might well have issues undiscovered. The OP feels anxious about sending her kids into this situation and wants help and reassurance about what she can do given the crisis of confidence she feels (rightly) in light of whats happened. Im suggesting she assesses whether she feels she can trust what her children say in the sense that she feels they would tell her if they were unhappy or if anything was wrong.

sashh Wed 27-Feb-13 06:37:02

* It's against the law to imprison people, even if they are small and behaving really badly.*

So why do we have prisons, secure units and secure children's homes?

I've read a few reports, they mostly state that he had got a knife from the kitchen, he was physically restrained, the knife removed and then put in a room, watched through a window for 40 mins until he was calm enough to come out.

On this evidence, I'm with the teacher who said what else could they do?

In an ideal world a 9 year old would not be locked in a room. But when it is the rights of 1 versus the health of 500 then there is no choice.

I have also read that the school ha s a unit for children who are disruptive and are sent there by other schools. If true, then I am not suprised they have a chill out room.

It is the parent of the child who has complained.

OP

Are your concerns about whether this is a routine punishment and that your children may be subjected to it?

I would ask your children if they know about this room, the chances are they don't even know it exists.

cavaqueen Wed 27-Feb-13 06:46:18

I would want to know what support had been put into place for this child to help him to control his behaviour, so that he didn't become so agitated that he became a danger to himself or others.

Learnandsay I am disgusted by your attitude.

nooka Wed 27-Feb-13 07:09:03

I'd not in general believe anything in the Daily Mail, but five teachers and the head don't get suspended for no reason, and labeling what should be a safe space as the 'naughty room' suggests something has really gone wrong. Also the BBC report states that the action was taken as a result of an LEA visit, not because of a parental complaint. the investigation involves the police, so it's unlikely it was some trivial incident.

I had a teacher kicking shouty type of child for a while, and our local school used the calm room as a deescalation/reward for him, and over time he learned to control his impulsive outbursts. I am very grateful that they managed him so well, with understanding and obvious care for his well being.

tethersend Wed 27-Feb-13 07:31:08

"We did have excellent training. There are rare occasions which are not textbook and decisions were made in the moment. We always completed serious incident paperwork."

I understand this thornrose; I have been an ESBD and SEN teacher for a number of years. But you have to see that holding a child in a room alone against their will is illegal, and you lay yourself wide open to legal action by doing so. There are other ways of dealing with children who are very violent or out of control.

"So why do we have prisons, secure units and secure children's homes?"

This is why court orders are obtained in order to place a child in those settings. The rules governing schools and non-secure care homes are different.

HotheadPaisan Wed 27-Feb-13 07:54:30

Who invesitgates/acts if the school is an Academy?

LineRunner Wed 27-Feb-13 09:00:19

If the school is an academy it would be the Secretary of State, I understand.

zzzzz Wed 27-Feb-13 09:38:11

"What else could they do"

Well what would they have done if they hadn't had the "secure room"? I would say any number of things could, should and would have been done if the room had not been available and it hadn't been considered "alright" to treat this child in this way.

As for the prisons and secure units. shock this is a primary school child not a convicted criminal who has been through our very comprehensive legal system to be incarcerated! You don't just get a teacher saying "this child's difficult send him to a secure unit". Ludicrous.

Thank you tethersend for clarifying that thornyroses take on things is not a universally held view among adults looking after our children.

I don't think OP has anything to worry about at her school, but perhaps the rest of us should be asking if this is the policy at ours?

learnandsay Wed 27-Feb-13 09:44:31

* It's against the law to imprison people, even if they are small and behaving really badly.*

I'm not a lawyer or a policeman but I think the sentence above is misleading.

So why do we have prisons, secure units and secure children's homes?

I think if we get into the ins and outs of what's legal and what isn't then we're going to get muddled up. I think an inquiry is going on at the moment in order to establish what has gone on and why.

AmberLeaf Wed 27-Feb-13 09:49:00

learnandsay. In a school it is against the law to imprison someone.

As zzzzz says above, there is a process for people being incarcerated.

There is no muddling up, the law is clear. You do not lock a child into a room.

learnandsay Wed 27-Feb-13 09:54:13

I'm sure that you don't lock a child there. But we don't know what has gone on. That's the reason for the inquiry.

zzzzz Wed 27-Feb-13 09:57:39

Other children had been "put in the naughty cupboard". You can't possibly think that's ok?

tethersend Wed 27-Feb-13 10:00:17

"So why do we have prisons, secure units and secure children's homes?"

I just answered that- a court must make the decision to place a young person in one of those settings. The rules are different for schools and non-secure care homes.

It's quite simple- in schools, forcing a child to be isolated/alone in a room against their will is illegal.

AmberLeaf Wed 27-Feb-13 10:01:12

The LEA visit sparked the enquiry, as they are the ones with the facts and legal knowledge and they were the ones that felt it serious enough to warrant 5-6 staff suspensions, Id say they felt there was evidence of wrongdoing.

Time will tell, but there is really no dispute over the legality of imprisoning a child regardless of your personal views on what should happen to such children.

zzzzz Wed 27-Feb-13 10:02:46

I too think the lock is a bit DM. But then I would never have believed someone who worked with children would have defended sticking them in a holding room with the senco holding the door shut......I'm guessing if there had been a lock she'd have saved herself the effort of standing there and used it.

So either the lock is there coincidentally, in which case do we trust that these adults don't use it, or they have fitted it to keep people out of the "naughty cupboard" hmm, or they fitted it to lock children in.

tethersend Wed 27-Feb-13 10:03:44

It could only possibly - and I do mean possibly- be legally justifiable if it was an unplanned reaction to an extremely dangerous situation.

It's quite clear that this was not the case as the school had designated a room for this very purpose, so was using it as a behaviour management technique.

I'd be very concerned about a school that has a dedicated behavioural unit that accepts children from other schools yet feels it is apprpriate to approach incidents in such a way.

amck5700 Wed 27-Feb-13 10:16:26

I wonder what discipline the parents are using at home with these children - it will either be nothing hence the problem, or similar or worse. Why people think that other people should magically be able to control their child when they probably can't I don't know. Maybe the parents can come in and supervise their child to allow the other children to learn without violent distruption?

Kendodd Wed 27-Feb-13 10:29:14

Oh dear! I put my three year old in her room when she's having a tantrum, it works better than anything else, she calms down very quickly.

5madthings Wed 27-Feb-13 10:32:32

Well lots of parents have to work or have other children etc. They don't need their parents in school with them, they need dedicated one on one support.

I know for my dp who works in a home with very difficult children any kind of restraint or physical handling of the children has to be an absolute last resort and requires masses of paper work to be filled in afterwards. everything possible is done to prevent these situations and to diffuse etc. Children are kept safe but sometimes its better to observe and keep them safe and wait for the anger to subside even if that means they are breaking things etc.

In a school its much harder but if they can't remove the child who is posing s threat they can remove the other children from the area? And that seems a logical first step, not ideal I know but it keeps them safe and diffuses the situation a bit.

Op has the Lea sorted out a new ta for your son? Are you happy that they are ensuring good continuity of care? I would be asking what they will be doing to support the children during this period of unsettledness.

amck5700 Wed 27-Feb-13 10:35:31

exactly Kendodd, as would a lot of people - seperating yourself from them and from confrontation is a very normal thing to do to defuse situations. If that's not what the parents are doing at home, then maybe they should be and then staff might not have to deal with a violent 9 year old. If he is still like that at 15 then society has a huge problem on our hands. Being placed in a room to chill out is clearly very different from beating a child as punishment.

adeucalione Wed 27-Feb-13 10:37:21

I did a search to find out a bit more on this story, and found this story from the DM in 2009. It's an article about other schools that use this strategy to calm pupils down, so surely can't be illegal can it?

ReallyTired Wed 27-Feb-13 10:38:56

"Oh dear! I put my three year old in her room when she's having a tantrum, it works better than anything else, she calms down very quickly. "

Lots of parents do this. There is a difference between having a three year old in time out for three minutes and locking an older child in a room all afternoon.

It would be reasonable for two adults to take a tantruming nine year old to a calm room and sit with them until they have calmed down. If the child is kicking and screaming then they are restrained to prevent anyone getting hurt.

Kendodd Wed 27-Feb-13 10:39:25

"everything possible is done to prevent these situations and to diffuse etc"

Everything? Does this include giving the child whatever they are kicking off about?

"Children are kept safe but sometimes its better to observe and keep them safe and wait for the anger to subside even if that means they are breaking things etc."

Really? They don't stop them smashing things up? What happens afterwards? Who pays for the damage?

Genuine questions about how this is managed.

amck5700 Wed 27-Feb-13 10:41:12

5mad totally take your point, but why should everyone pay for 121 support for a child when it is the parents who have caused the issue in the first place?

Not saying that is always the case, but it is factor.

Not that you would actually want some of these parents in the school anyway, it was a bit of a flippant point on my part.

Something needs to be done at the base level to stop bad parenting and bad parents from continually passing their issues onto other people and children and somehow expect them to be able to sort it out.

Lynned Wed 27-Feb-13 10:42:07

oh ffs. The world has gone completely mad. I have not read the whole thread, but if what the daily fail says is actually true, what else were they supposed to do with the little thug?l

LOL at 'teacher-kicking shouty screamy schools' grin

H works in one of them and expects to be punched, kicked, spat at and have chairs thrown at his head. He deals with it. And he knows the corrrect restraints to use when necceesary. A 'naughty cupboard' does exists but it's not exactly a cupboard and the word 'naughty' is never used about any child (though when H comes home and tells me about his day I have been known to utter the words 'violent little shit' but that's just me and I am not a professional wink).

I have every sympathy for teachers dealing with such difficult pupils but locking a child in a confined space is never a solution - the teachers need training in restraint techniques maybe.

This case specifically refers to the illegality of keeping pupils locked in rooms without a court order.

AmberLeaf Wed 27-Feb-13 10:45:53

but why should everyone pay for 121 support for a child when it is the parents who have caused the issue in the first place?

For a child to have 121 support then they will more than likely have special educational needs.

SEN are not caused by bad parenting.

Kendodd Wed 27-Feb-13 10:45:54

"I have every sympathy for teachers dealing with such difficult pupils but locking a child in a confined space is never a solution"

It works for me at home, my DD calms down fast.

ReallyTired Wed 27-Feb-13 10:54:45

"SEN are not caused by bad parenting."

Severe emotional and behavioural difficulties are often caused by bad early years experiences. I am sure that if Baby P had lived he would have had bad behavioural problems.

"but why should everyone pay for 121 support for a child when it is the parents who have caused the issue in the first place?"

So what would you do with the damaged child?

If a child has experienced abuse then they need extra help. Severe neglect or physical or emotional abuse can have long term affects on brain development.

Even if the child was born neurotypical; they have developed special needs and its not their fault.

amck5700 Wed 27-Feb-13 10:57:21

I do absolutely believe that there are children who genuinely have special needs. However, is there some medical reason why there are a disproportionate amount that come from from homes where there are parenting issues? Genuine question, what comes first, the special need or the poor parenting?

Once again, I repeat, I know there are some children who genuinely have issues not caused by their parents.

5madthings Wed 27-Feb-13 10:57:33

Its not always the parents and if it is then they should get support to help themselves and their child. If that fails then children can be and are removed from their parents.

We pay as a society because its about protecting the vulnerable, children are the most vulnerable in society.

Do the kids kicking off get what they want? Generally they aren't kicking off just be cause they want something! Whilst them breaking stuff is far from ideal sometimes its better to let them get their frustration out, these are children who have been abused and had awful lives. Unfortunately there isn't a quick fix and rather than place staff and other children in danger it is sometimes better to watch and keep them and others safe until they calm down. I don't know the minute details, I don't work there but my dp does and I have seen the bitemasrks and the bruises and scratches etc he can get when dealing with these children. But when a child literally collapses sobbing at the end if a meltdown and you then talk to them about what triggered it in most cases the staff have nothing but sympathy for the child. No-one condones their behavior and there are consequences but they then all work to resolve issues, to find and avoid the triggers and work on helping them to become functioning adults which is what we all want. One such boy is now doing brilliantly in a foster home, getting good gcse 's, volunteering to help train rescue dogs and doing brilliantly and has a good future ahead of him. But there were years if horribly difficult times to get to that point. Thankfully some people didn't give up on him and the rewards are now being seen. Dp no longer looks after him but has stayed in touch, its outcomes like this that make doing the job possible, it would be mentally exhausting otherwise and still can be at times.

5madthings Wed 27-Feb-13 10:59:40

Regardless of the causes of the extra needs these children have, its not their fault and its our duty as a society to help and protect them.

adeucalione Wed 27-Feb-13 11:02:33

BeerTricks - Thanks for the link, but surely there's a difference between locking a child in a room for 'up to six times every day' and a - presumably - rare and desperate measure after everything else has failed? I'm genuinely interested in whether it's illegal or not, given my earlier link (to DM admittedly) which detailed several other schools who were using the strategy at that time.

amck5700 Wed 27-Feb-13 11:02:56

Reallytired. I think that there needs to be support at the base level rather than 121 support later on. But wat annoys me is that sometimes people complain about others trying to fix the issue they have caused as if their child is some delicate flower that they themselves lavish with love and affection. They may very well do a lot worse to the child at home but are up in arms when someone else tries to use a perfectly acceptable form of discipline to sort the issue they created.

No, I don't think the chldren should be left to get on with it, however I don't think dealing with the issue on a 121 basis at school while the parents carry on causing further issues and having more children who they raise in the same manner is right either.

I don't know what the solution is.

Kendodd Wed 27-Feb-13 11:02:59

Would putting them in a 'safe' room harm them?

5madthings Wed 27-Feb-13 11:04:26

I do think society as a whole needs to look at why we have these problems, they don't happen in a bubble. These parents were children once themselves. We do have cycles of abuse and neglect and problems of poverty, low self esteem and low attainment and low aspirations. Early years intervention is key and proper support for the parents.

But there are also many fabulous patents who have children with sen, no it their doing, they need support as well. Many of these families are being sadly let down, the current government is not helping.

AmberLeaf Wed 27-Feb-13 11:06:02

Severe emotional and behavioural difficulties are often caused by bad early years experiences

SEBD are one type of SN. That may be caused by poor parenting.

There are many children in mainstream schools with SNs, SEBD are not in the majority.

Many more are on the autistic spectrum and as Im sure you know autism is not caused by bad parenting.

I do absolutely believe that there are children who genuinely have special needs. However, is there some medical reason why there are a disproportionate amount that come from from homes where there are parenting issues?

That is bollocks.

'I do absolutely believe that there are children who genuinely have special needs.'

Right, thanks for that.

EducationalAppStore Wed 27-Feb-13 11:07:49

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

'Once again, I repeat, I know there are some children who genuinely have issues not caused by their parents.'

And I repeat - thanks!

Pmsl at random advert.

5madthings Wed 27-Feb-13 11:10:05

It doesn't matter if the issues are caused by parents, most are NOT and even if they are they are still 'genuine' and all need support.

5madthings Wed 27-Feb-13 11:10:24

I just reported that as spam starlight

' is there some medical reason why there are a disproportionate amount that come from from homes where there are parenting issues'

Disability does not discriminate, unlike some on this thread.
So not all children with disabilities have capable parents, which is made more difficult BY the disability.

ouryve Wed 27-Feb-13 11:13:09

So should my sometimes aggressive 9yo be caned, too, learnandsay?

Did caning work for you, because you sound nasty?

learnandsay Wed 27-Feb-13 11:13:09

If the issues are being caused by the parents then no amount of support in school is going to help.

It's possible to work with parents, learnandsay.

5madthings Wed 27-Feb-13 11:14:50

Actually it can help learnandsay but the ideal solution is support for the parents as well, it needs a multi team approach with outside agencies and not just the school.

amck5700 Wed 27-Feb-13 11:15:30

Going back to my own childhood, my mother used to get really frustrated at the continual reward for poor behaviour.

I was the youngest of 7 brought up in poverty by my parents who always worked hard and taught us right from wrong. We couln't afford holidays and treats very often - a trip to the park with a sandwich and a drink and maybe a biscuit was the highlight of our summers and I remember going to the beach on the bus once or twice.

The children with "issues" and poor behaviour as we saw it as children would get taken on holidays and trips out all the time - they got taxis to school while we slogged to walk the 2 miles in the snow. She said it was no example to children to keep them behaving properly.

An associate of hers said in later years that she was so lucky that her kids had all turned out well and had good jobs and houses etc and she told them that luck had nothing to do with it.

learnandsay Wed 27-Feb-13 11:15:54

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Kendodd Wed 27-Feb-13 11:17:57

"low self esteem and low aspirations" (I have taken out attainment)

You know, sometimes I think the opposite is the problem. Children often seem to bursting with self esteem and think very highly of themselves indeed. And as for low aspirations I think they often have really high, unrealistic aspirations. Please don't take this to mean I don't think they should have ambition.

A personal bug bear of mine is the term 'menial job' and peoples unwillingness to do them, thinking that they are beneath them (and by implication so are the people who do them). This I think is born of too much self esteem. I think this unwillingness to start at the bottom has partly led to generations of unemployment. In my mind there is no such thing as a menial job, they are valuable, and the people who do them should be given the utmost respect for what they do.

Low 'self esteem' just seems to be the term brandished around with little thought and with little relationship to the reality.

And some disabilities are far far more than a parent to be expected to cope with alone, but usually are, for as long as possible until the authorities simply can't ignore the child any longer. It is often too late for that child and that family by then.

I kicked my Headteacher. I didn't get caned, even though corporal punishment was an option available to him.

amck5700 Wed 27-Feb-13 11:18:29

star - any reason for the aggression?

kimorama Wed 27-Feb-13 11:20:53

National news story. All over the place, More than a little unusual. Press will be talking to parents.

5madthings Wed 27-Feb-13 11:20:58

It sounds like you had good parents then amck some children aren't that lucky.

Taxis are provided for many reasons such as parents having disabilities themselves etc, two of mine had taxis to school for a few months when I had post natal psychosis after ds4. I am sure some wondered why, I mean I looked perfectly normal as do my children, but mental health issues are very invisible a lot of the time.

amck5700 Wed 27-Feb-13 11:21:27

kendodd, I am inclined to agree.

learnandsay Wed 27-Feb-13 11:22:57

I can't imagine that anyone would have kicked the headmaster when I was at school. Has the whole world gone completely mad?

kimorama Wed 27-Feb-13 11:23:22

If, as is said, Academies are allowed to remain secretive; then thats worrying.

Kendodd Wed 27-Feb-13 11:23:44

"The children with "issues" and poor behaviour as we saw it as children would get taken on holidays and trips out all the time - they got taxis to school while we slogged to walk the 2 miles in the snow. She said it was no example to children to keep them behaving properly."

Oh I agree, it seem very unfair, but if it works, then...

ReallyTired Wed 27-Feb-13 11:23:46

"There are many children in mainstream schools with SNs, SEBD are not in the majority."

Many children with special needs have explemorary behaviour. One of the most common groups are children with moderate learning difficulties or children with dyslexia. Many children with autism are well behaved as well.

ADHD is another condition that is poorly understood.

"I do absolutely believe that there are children who genuinely have special needs. However, is there some medical reason why there are a disproportionate amount that come from from homes where there are parenting issues?"

Genetics, pure and simple. Parents with learning difficulties often have children with learning difficulties. A parent with low intelligence will struggle to access help to or the common sense to parent to a high standard.

A lot depends on what your definition of parenting issues is. Someone with major learning difficulits may well try their best to parent their children. The children will not be abused, but might be fed a crap diet, never have their teeth brushed (because parent doesn't brush their teeth), never read to because the parent can't read and have no routine.

There is a difference between abusive and sub optimal parenting.

Feelingood Wed 27-Feb-13 11:24:27

In the past I have used a time out area within my home for my toddler to calm down. How many of us have done that?

If a child is out of control physically you have very few options as an adult in charge of their care. This boy was referred there for difficult behaviour, surely parents of children in that unit knew about the room, which according to the daily mail must be purpose built as its padded with a viewing window.

False imprisonment - maybe better than several children or staff being hurt

AmberLeaf Wed 27-Feb-13 11:25:26

amck5700 then how lucky you and your parents were that none of you had any 'issues'

amck5700 Wed 27-Feb-13 11:25:49

True 5mad - but when you are a child looking upon such things it doesn't feel very fair. We were well aware that a lot of these children were being transposrted to school to make sure they were delivered to the school. It felt like if you misbehaved and skipped school you were rewarded.

and my parents were far from perfect but I understand and accept the things that they did wrong now because they were just people trying to do their best in tough circumstances.

Feelingood Wed 27-Feb-13 11:26:22

Kendodd excellent point about so called menial jobs....there is something to be said to be a little time served so to speak

learnandsay Wed 27-Feb-13 11:26:23

Yes, reallytired, but lately many of the neglect issues that you're describing are causing children to get taken into care. The numbers are rising sharply at the moment.

My point is, learnandsay, that corporal punishment isn't a deterrent to behavioural issues.

It might make the caner feel like they are doing something about it, but they'd be wrong.
Promoting appropriate behaviour is a multi-agency approach. Beating a child or shutting them away is not going to work.

5madthings Wed 27-Feb-13 11:29:02

I agree to a child it can seem u fair, my own dp has taken then children he works with on all sorts of trips that we can't afford for our own children, but we ha e talked to our children and they understand that tho these children get trips etc they don't have living parents and a normal home life. In the long run our children are the lucky ones and they know it.

amck5700 Wed 27-Feb-13 11:29:03

really, yes that makes sense thankyou

tethersend Wed 27-Feb-13 11:29:42

Children in care go to school too, learnandsay- their issues don't magically disappear once they are taken into care.

5madthings Wed 27-Feb-13 11:29:48

Loving parents not living..

kimorama Wed 27-Feb-13 11:31:01

Maintain discipline? There have always been rules as to what teachers can do to children. All teachers are not rational.

tethersend Wed 27-Feb-13 11:31:51

"False imprisonment - maybe better than several children or staff being hurt"

It's not either/or- there are many techniques which can be used to keep everyone safe without recourse to locking a child in a room against their will.

learnandsay Wed 27-Feb-13 11:32:37

Of course the issues don't magically disappear. But if the parents are causing the issues then removing child from the parents makes sense.

amck5700 Wed 27-Feb-13 11:32:52

we didn't have issues because when we misbehaved the behaviour was dealt with.....and I don't believe that we were ever hit other than taps on the botton as toddlers. Mostly we were sent to our room.

Feelingood Wed 27-Feb-13 11:33:01

I used to wrk in a school ink a v deprived area with a lot of social problems, it ha d a unit and an off site ex council house. The children were often taken off site as they could not cope with traditional classroom teaching. Other children in the mainstream curriculum did often raise this and it led to a change int he reward system.

But it always became apparent really that the children in the unit often had decreased opportunities to gain qualifications due to type of provision they had been streamed into or their own ability level.

I agree it is hard when children are younger to see the fairness in this.

5madthings Wed 27-Feb-13 11:34:55

Removing children from their parents can make a situation worse, it creates a whole host of further problems. And where should these children go, are you going to volunteer to foster them learnandsay or work in a children's home?

amck5700 Wed 27-Feb-13 11:35:22

5mad - we have that discussion regularly as my boys go to a very mixed school.

AmberLeaf Wed 27-Feb-13 11:35:44

My Mum was a foster parent to many children with ESBD, some with very challenging behavior, they would be rewarded for improvements in behavior even if only small ones.

I remember once feeling a little put out that one of the children was taken on a trip as a treat by their social worker and I obviously wasn't included in that, my Mum pointed out how lucky I was to be able to do that sort of thing with my own family and that I was lucky to come from a well functioning happy family.

She was of course right and Im glad I had such a sensible Mum who could explain such things to me.

Many children with special needs have explemorary behaviour. One of the most common groups are children with moderate learning difficulties or children with dyslexia. Many children with autism are well behaved as well

Yes I know, I have a child with autism who is on the whole well behaved and is lucky enough to go to a mainstream school who have excellent behavior management practices and de-escalation methods too. However, if they didn't I could easily imagine my son being in a situation not unlike the one in the blackpool school.

I do absolutely believe that there are children who genuinely have special needs. However, is there some medical reason why there are a disproportionate amount that come from from homes where there are parenting issues?

Genetics, pure and simple. Parents with learning difficulties often have children with learning difficulties. A parent with low intelligence will struggle to access help to or the common sense to parent to a high standard

Oh righty! of course the above wouldn't represent the majority.

But yes, carry on blaming the parents.

learnandsay Wed 27-Feb-13 11:36:08

Other children in the mainstream curriculum did often raise this and it led to a change int he reward system.

Sorry, I couldn't follow this bit: Mainstream children thought it was unfair that some children got taken to an old council house?

tethersend Wed 27-Feb-13 11:36:23

"But if the parents are causing the issues then removing child from the parents makes sense."

In many cases, yes it does. My point is that children in care can and do continue to experience behavioural difficulties once they have been removed from their parents; and they still have to go to school. Removing children from abusive homes does not mean that behavioural problems disappear at school.

ouryve Wed 27-Feb-13 11:36:42

amck5700: why should everyone pay for 121 support for a child when it is the parents who have caused the issue in the first place?

biscuitangry

5madthings Wed 27-Feb-13 11:37:30

amck I am assuming your parents led by example and were fair as and cared and loved you, some children don't have that. What was normal for you is not the norm food every family.

And again many many children who have sen's do not have poor parents, they have parents who are doing their best with little to no support.

Feelingood Wed 27-Feb-13 11:38:15

Tether - what do you think should have happened? Sometimes older children have 'rages' a bit like a tantrum where they cannot be reached and reasoned with. I left a classroom once away from an aggressive pupil. You are just not allowed to touch them, and I was scared, it's possible these staff were too.

Kendodd Wed 27-Feb-13 11:38:35

'False imprisonment' seems a ludicrous term to use when referring to children. All children could be said to be 'in prison' in that they are not free to just walk out of the door whenever they like.

Also, asking again, and a genuine question, are they harmed by being put in a 'safe' room?

5madthings Wed 27-Feb-13 11:39:47

amck so do we, if only more parents did tho rather than just comp,ain that its not fair for little johnny not to get the same. If we all had a bit more understanding and taught pur children to do the same then some of these children would have a better life and stand a better chance.

AmberLeaf Wed 27-Feb-13 11:40:28

we didn't have issues because when we misbehaved the behaviour was dealt with.....and I don't believe that we were ever hit other than taps on the botton as toddlers. Mostly we were sent to our room

Or maybe you didn't have 'issues' because you had a stable home life and no learning difficulties/SNs?

But yeah Im sure a bit of good old fashioned discipline would sort out all these SN kids hmm

learnandsay Wed 27-Feb-13 11:40:40

I can imagine how locking an out of control nine year old in a small room with a knife could have a bad outcome, yes.

AmberLeaf Wed 27-Feb-13 11:43:27

My point is that children in care can and do continue to experience behavioural difficulties once they have been removed from their parents; and they still have to go to school. Removing children from abusive homes does not mean that behavioural problems disappear at school

Absolutely.

It takes a lot of work to undo damage in children and sometimes even then it is partial, but good foster parents and a good school that is on board and supportive can make a difference.

tethersend Wed 27-Feb-13 11:46:19

Feelinggood, of course you are allowed to touch them- why on earth would you think that you weren't?

As teachers, we can restrain children if:

-A child is injuring others

-A child is injuring themselves

-A child is damaging property

-A child is behaving in a way that is likely to disrupt good order.

Any physical intervention taken must be reasonable, proportionate and necessary.

This means that if a pupil is charging at another holding a knife, you are justified in rugby tackling them to the ground- if they are verbally abusing you, you are not.

The vague definitions do not help- 'damaging property' could mean smashing a window; it could also mean snapping a pencil in two. Legally, you could restrain a child for this, but ethically? It would be completely inappropriate. The legislation relies on teachers' judgements of what is reasonable, proportionate and necessary, and there is rarely any provision to train them to effectively make that kind of decision.

As a teacher, you have a duty of care to keep children safe, and act in loco parentis.

This does not mean that you are required to restrain a child, but that you cannot do nothing. Even fetching someone else to help is something.

So, leaving aside a number of non- physical interventions which may have worked with this particular child, staff could have restrained him and/or sat with him until he calmed down. There is no need to seclude a child in such a way unless (possibly) it was an emergency reaction to a dangerous situation. Given the information we have, we can safely assume that it was not an unplanned reaction.

ouryve Wed 27-Feb-13 11:46:50

learnandsay

When we were at school (I was at school in the 70s and 80s), children with SN of just about any sort were routinely sent to special schools which had very low expectations for them. That's why you never saw them.

My 9yo has ASD/ADHD and SEBD. He is also highly intelligent. He needs to be in an environment where he can be nurtured and intellectually stimulated, not pushed to one side and forgotten about. With the right support, he has the potential to be a brilliant engineer, or whatever he wants to be. If he were pushed to one side because of his meltdowns, which are brought on by panic, rather than pure naughtiness, he would probably spend most of his adult life in and out of prison.

In the 70s and 80s, he would probably have been sent to a correctional school, which would have made him even angrier and more aggressive than he can be, now.

Use violence against him (ie the cane) and all that would do is reinforce that it's OK to be violent because that's what adults do to children.

amck5700 Wed 27-Feb-13 11:48:58

Amber - my home life was far from perfect though it was pretty stable - my Mum threw my Dad out a few times - he had alcohol and gambling problems and sometimes would take his wages and go on a bender. But as an adult I can see why he did it and forgive him. I do believe he loved us though. I think back in the 60s/70s when I was brought up, nobody had "special needs", they were either good or naughty or had a disability. I wonder if the jails were fuller - I guess what they did have was residential units where the "naughty" children went - childrens prisons probably. I thnk we are probably all a bit more understanding now but maybe we have gone too far the other way and still failed to tackle the root of the issue?

Feelingood Wed 27-Feb-13 11:52:42

learnandsay sorry not v well put - that the children in the unit used to be away off site for a start and have access to alternative curriculum such as DJing and yes go on trips and used to be seen doing projects around school such as gardening.

tethersend Wed 27-Feb-13 11:55:33

"Also, asking again, and a genuine question, are they harmed by being put in a 'safe' room?"

Some will, some won't. You won't always know which child will be fine and which is locked in a cupboard for hours on end at home, or has a pathological fear of confined spaces, or was brought to the country in the boot of a car.

Would you want to take that risk when there are a whole host of other strategies you could use?

learnandsay Wed 27-Feb-13 11:57:25

It must be hard explaining unfairness to the other children. Somebody once said that a child in school would get shouty sometimes and be allowed to go out and play. The other children couldn't understand why this happened.

I'm glad I don't go to school today. When I was at school we had school rules and if you broke them you got in trouble. Everybody knew what was expected of them and they got on with it. Simple.

HotheadPaisan Wed 27-Feb-13 12:03:20

WRT to fairness, NT children have many advantages and opportunities simply due to not having SEND, let's not begrudge children with SEND getting some help.

HotheadPaisan Wed 27-Feb-13 12:04:58

Those 'shouty' kids often end up excluded and/or leaving school with no qualifications. Look at the outcomes and life chances for kids with SEND, they are appalling compared to NT kids.

Feelingood Wed 27-Feb-13 12:05:02

Tether yes true re all those situations, but I have been in two situations where I could not physically restrain a pupil, they were older 11/12. Also with a verbally aggressive 14 and barged past me before I had chance to move.

There are some circumstances where this is not possible, or the child may respond badly to being sat on. Many school have isolation rooms. The first school I worked in did, it was staffed by a senior member of management team. A student would be removed from classroom and escorted there, where they would reflect upon their behaviour may complete a form then continue with work sent from classroom.

Every secondary school I have worked in has had a staffed isolation room (used by mainstream) but not locked. Policy would be to stay there for lesson or whole day, sometimes until parent got there to discuss a mor serious incident such as a fight. Every school has also had some sort of unit to offer alternative curriculums to children with different needs who can't cope with mainstream classroom.

IMO closing the 'special schools' led to schools within a school being set up to lesser or greater degree, some slow to do so and teachers lacking the specialised training required to teach differently to accommodate a range of learning needs bloody differentiation....

(Sorry if not following discussion well my one year old has turned into a poo machine)

AmberLeaf Wed 27-Feb-13 12:06:21

It is very easy to explain perceived unfairness to children.

I think back in the 60s/70s when I was brought up, nobody had "special needs", they were either good or naughty or had a disability

Disability? you mean a physical one?

Thank all that is holy that things have changed then.

There certainly were children with special needs in the 60s-70s, you just didnt see them as they were in institutions.

I thnk we are probably all a bit more understanding now but maybe we have gone too far the other way and still failed to tackle the root of the issue?

Some of us are more understanding now yes.

I dont think its gone too far the other way.

What is the root of the issue then?

KateSMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 27-Feb-13 12:08:40

Hello everyone,

Thanks to all those who have brought this thread to our attention. We've gone through and deleted some disablist posts, some personal attacks, and posts repeating personal attacks.

As ever, please report anything you think we've may have missed.

AmberLeaf Wed 27-Feb-13 12:09:23

Incidentally, many ie the majority of adults in british prisons have a learning difficulty, hopefully the way things are now, this will lessen.

Hopefully with the right support, children with LDs/SNs will do as best they can at school and have a chance of a productive life in society.

Hopefully.

amck5700 Wed 27-Feb-13 12:10:05

I know a child who has shocking behaviour and does not have any special need disgnosed though he has been tested. His "reward" is that he gets to have his own desk at the front of the class labelled Xs Office, he is allowed to leave the classroom when he feels like it and gets away with things that other children don't. He has been expelled from Cubs/Scouts as they couldn't do anything with him and the other children started not wanting to go. he swears and is abusive the police visit regularly - when he and my son were about 4 he thumped my son hard enough to bruise and pushed him over on a driveway where he banged his head, the provacation being that he wanted my son to smash a bottle on the road and he refused. This boys mother made them apologise to each other and then put the boy on the naught step for 4 minutes and told me I should do the same.....really?

I really don't know what the answer is but putting him on a pedestal isn't it imo.

Goldenbear Wed 27-Feb-13 12:14:24

My Mum was the Head of Special Needs department in a school. The school was in a very deprived area and a lot of her pupils had difficult family backgrounds. She was well liked and well respected by her pupils and I think this was because she would never take a confrontational approach with the pupils. She thought this was particularly important when there was suspected abuse and SS, CP were involved. To resolve an angry situation with aggression is both ethically questionable and illogical.

'Time out' for a toddler is ridiculous, they are babies why don't you show them some love, cuddle them, be kind and stop watching or reading about shoddy ideas on discipline imported from the USA!

tethersend Wed 27-Feb-13 12:16:46

Feelinggood, I am also a secondary teacher and have restrained many teenagers- although not always on my own!

Staffed isolation rooms are perfectly legal- it is forcing a child to be alone which is not.

I also have a tiny poo machine to deal with grin

tethersend Wed 27-Feb-13 12:17:15

I should add that I'm not at work today!

amck5700 Wed 27-Feb-13 12:17:38

Amber a physical or mental one and yes it is better that people are not hidden away or imprisoned in homes now. What I mean by gone too far the other way is that there seems to be a tendancy to put every behaviour down to a special need that may or may not exist. That doesn't mean that individuals shouldn't have to conform to the same boundaries as everyone else. Some individuals take advantage of a diagnosis to indulge in bahaviour they clearly know is wrong but that they know they can get away with.

and as for what the root is - I have no idea....I was hoping someone else would know grin

AmberLeaf Wed 27-Feb-13 12:17:44

My son has had his own workspace in the past, he has also been able to leave the room if he was finding the classroom difficult due to sensory overload.

That sounds like what is happening with that boy amck5700.

Sounds like the school are trying to support him and manage his behavior.

Not having a diagnosis doesn't mean he doesn't have any special needs, diagnosis can take years and schools can certainly provide support for a child with symptoms who does not yet have a diagnosis.

AmberLeaf Wed 27-Feb-13 12:21:53

What I mean by gone too far the other way is that there seems to be a tendancy to put every behaviour down to a special need that may or may not exist. That doesn't mean that individuals shouldn't have to conform to the same boundaries as everyone else. Some individuals take advantage of a diagnosis to indulge in bahaviour they clearly know is wrong but that they know they can get away with

With all due respect, you really don't know what you are talking about.

That is just how you see it from your uninformed opinion.

If you were either the parent or teacher of a child with SNs or was involved in a professional capacity with a a child with SNs, you wouldn't see it that way, because you would know that the behaviors are not wilfull.

AmberLeaf Wed 27-Feb-13 12:23:41

and as for what the root is - I have no idea....I was hoping someone else would know

A suggestion- leave it to those who are qualified to decide.

You have a right to an opinion, but be aware that an uninformed one isn't worth a lot.

amck5700 Wed 27-Feb-13 12:27:23

amber - a friend who works in the child psychiatry service - who knows this boy but not in the course of his employment, just from being in the same environment, reckons he has a personality disorder rather than ADHD etc. But i don't know.

5madthings Wed 27-Feb-13 12:30:11

Well a personality disorder comes under the spectrum of mental health and is still a special need/disability is it not? But really your 'friend' shouldn't be discussing this with you anyway amck

amck5700 Wed 27-Feb-13 12:30:39

Amber, that'll be me told then!

So my opinion is clearly not as valid as someone elses then? I'll just feck off and keep paying my taxes.

Feelingood Wed 27-Feb-13 12:31:27

Interesting tether I never have and I'm not little! I left three years ago. I have talked round plenty stroppy ones and parents!

golden depends how you use timeout, can be time needed to diffuse a situation. I don't show approval of undesirable behaviour through 'love' either

HotheadPaisan Wed 27-Feb-13 12:37:45

Neurological disorders are very complex, I really had no idea until I had a child with one. They think his disorder is connected to brain development in utero - nothing I did/didn't do, combination of genetics and random other stuff they don't really understand yet.

I want to weep when I see some of the comments here. He has his own workstation in the class and has regular breaks, the other kids know he's different - he knows he's different which causes him anguish, but not as much as not having adaptations causes him. It will be a miracle if he makes it to the other end of the education system.

Bear in mind that when you exclude/ostracise a child you exclude the family from the community too.

HotheadPaisan Wed 27-Feb-13 12:41:19

And when you refuse to listen or understand and sit in judgement you further isolate people who are already very isolated.

I think that MN campaign on raising awareness and others changing their attitudes is long overdue.

5madthings Wed 27-Feb-13 12:45:26

I agree hothead

amck5700 Wed 27-Feb-13 12:48:52

why shouldn't my friend make a comment to me about a child he doesn't work with when are dicussing the damage he has just done to someones car with a penknife? Are we not allowed to have an opinion and talk about these with friends now?

Maybe the issue with the seperate desk is that it was a child in this boys class that was discussing it and he clearly sees it as a privilidge that this boy has been given for misbehaving. So it has either not been explained to other children or not done so properly or their understanding hasn't been checked.

Feelingood Wed 27-Feb-13 12:49:20

hothead my ds 7 has kids who are integrated he knows they are different but not why and just seems to accept this. I find the school he is at seem to foster a positive attitude to inclusion and take time to talk about differences.

I hope you get the support and understanding for your son as he progresses.

5madthings Wed 27-Feb-13 12:50:25

Not when what she has said is related to private medical issues no she shouldn't have mentioned that.

5madthings Wed 27-Feb-13 12:52:05

He sorry not she.

AmberLeaf Wed 27-Feb-13 12:52:36

amber - a friend who works in the child psychiatry service - who knows this boy but not in the course of his employment, just from being in the same environment, reckons he has a personality disorder rather than ADHD etc. But i don't know

Im surprised at a professional discussing a child with you.

Amber, that'll be me told then!

Sorry, didn't intend that to be so snippy.

So my opinion is clearly not as valid as someone elses then? I'll just feck off and keep paying my taxes

As I said you are perfectly entitled to an opinion, just that as it comes from an uninformed viewpoint it isn't worth much.

What has your taxes got to do with it? do you think you should get a say in educational policy even though you are in no way qualified and have little understanding of the issues, merely because you pay tax?

AmberLeaf Wed 27-Feb-13 12:54:33

why shouldn't my friend make a comment to me about a child he doesn't work with when are dicussing the damage he has just done to someones car with a penknife? Are we not allowed to have an opinion and talk about these with friends now?

Because as your friend is [allegedly] a professional, he should know that to do so is unethical.

zzzzz Wed 27-Feb-13 12:58:07

Well which is likely to make the seperate desk policy work best for the child that isn't coping? It's a privilege or its a punishment?

Do you have any understanding of just how lucky the other children are not to need this kind of intervention?

I despair of a world that is so blinkered that you can't see that the interventions are not something to be jealous of. These children can't learn without this type of support.

Goldenbear Wed 27-Feb-13 12:58:49

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zzzzz Wed 27-Feb-13 13:02:20

feelinggood if your time out involves several adults shutting you in to a cupboard then I think you need to think again.

If you sent your rascal next door to play and when you came to pick up she was locked in a cupboard for being naughty, would you honestly be happy?

HotheadPaisan Wed 27-Feb-13 13:02:36

Thanks, I really do think a little knowledge and understanding go a long way, and that starts with all parents. It is unbelievably difficult when you have a child with issues like DS1. From what I understand the others accept him so far but that is because I know a lot of the parents and I know they understand and accept his difference. Kids naturally do at this age but I realise that can change.

amck5700 Wed 27-Feb-13 13:06:19

It is not unethical or unprofessional to make a comment to a friend in the course of a conversation about someone who is not a patient of yours. I am sure that everyone from time to time does the same. It's not about a private medical issue as he has no idea of his private medical record.

and what is the alleged is meant to mean, I don't know - I guess now I am a liar too? Jeez!

AmberLeaf Wed 27-Feb-13 13:09:56

It is unethical and unprofessional however you butter it up.

amck5700 Wed 27-Feb-13 13:09:57

These children can't learn without this type of support.

But what exactly are they learning? and what are they teaching the other 30 kids in the class if the kids see it as a reward for bad behaviour?

you are desperate and incompetent as a parent

And that's really nice and inclusive dont you think?

5madthings Wed 27-Feb-13 13:10:01

Its unethical of him to speculate to you about a diagnosis and say he thinks he has a personality disorder. Maybe he does but that is none of your business, nor his if he isnt even treating the boy. You are both simply gossiping about a child, not very nice at all.

amck5700 Wed 27-Feb-13 13:11:13

Amber well have to agree to differ then and I am sure as a teacher you never go home and make any conversation about kids in your class never mind random kids in the street.

AmberLeaf Wed 27-Feb-13 13:13:29

But what exactly are they learning? and what are they teaching the other 30 kids in the class if the kids see it as a reward for bad behaviour?

They are learning the same as the rest of the class, albeit at a different rate and with different methods possibly.

If those kids see it as a reward for bad behavior, then it is up to their parents to tell them otherwise, unless of course their parents are so lacking in empathy that they just reinforce that view by joining in on the moaning.

amck5700 Wed 27-Feb-13 13:14:31

exactly 5mad - we were gossiping, not disclosing personal medical files etc.

If gossiping is a crime then shoot me now - cos at the end of the day there is not one person on this thread who hasn't gossiped or judged. Sites like this simply would cease to exist if we didn't.

And breaking peoples things, destroying property, bullying and hurting other children is perfectly fine but heaven forbid anyone whould want a gossip about it.

HotheadPaisan Wed 27-Feb-13 13:14:39

Then the kids should be told it's not a reward. S1's support and adaptations such as regular breaks and choosing time mean everyone can get on. What do you think should happen to children like DS1?

AmberLeaf Wed 27-Feb-13 13:15:26

Im not a teacher and if I were I would be discussing childrens confidential information with randoms, Im sure that isn't the norm for such professionals.

HotheadPaisan Wed 27-Feb-13 13:15:34

Why do people get so defensive about these things? Your kids are probably streets ahead of mine, I don't complain about that, I just plough on with trying to help him.

AmberLeaf Wed 27-Feb-13 13:16:45

wouldnt*

5madthings Wed 27-Feb-13 13:17:51

When that gossip includes speculating about aedical diagnosis or professional opinion it is unethical. as its bitching about a childs behaviour and strategies being used to deal with it. Maybe some attempt at understsnding and empathy wouldnt go amiss but of course its much more fun to have a good old bitching session

This attitude of bitching and moaning about children with sen's makes their life worse.

zzzzz Wed 27-Feb-13 13:18:02

They're learning that they can do the same work as everyone else if there needs are accommodated and that they must get on with it.

The rest of the class are learning that life isn't an even playing field and that "fair" means everyone gets a chance to do the work even if they need to sit at the front so they can see, have a scribe, need a slanting desk and special pencils to write......They learn that inclusion means holding out your hand to help less able people over the obstacles in their path. If we're lucky they learn it and go home and teach there parents.

AmberLeaf Wed 27-Feb-13 13:18:13

we were gossiping, not disclosing personal medical files etc

The fact that it was 'merely' gossip doesn't make it any better at all!

Your friend has behaved very unethically.

amck5700 Wed 27-Feb-13 13:19:36

Amber surely it is up to the school in the firts place - some of the parents may have no idea unless their child has mentioned it.

and I didn't mean learning educationally particularly - I meant what are the learning about fitting into society? With the best will in the world, children with special needs will grow up and need a place. Will employers make special arrangements?- I shouldn't think they will. I am sure that there will be parents desperately worried about what happens after school so what is the likely outcome?- do the interventions actually work and deliver someone capable of coping or what?

AmberLeaf Wed 27-Feb-13 13:27:57

Read zzzzzs post, she puts it well regarding what are they learning.

Will employers make special arrangements?, I shouldn't think they will

The disability discrimination act says they must make reasonable adjustments so yes.

I am sure that there will be parents desperately worried about what happens after school so what is the likely outcome?- do the interventions actually work and deliver someone capable of coping or what?

Yes that is a massive worry. only 15% of adults with autism are in employment, Im hoping that my son makes that 15% and that that number will increase over time.

What would make it easier is if other parents of children without any SNs could have a bit of understanding and ensure that their children do too.

Children with SNs are statistically more likely to be bullied than be a bully, as a parent I see it as my job to make sure my children do their best to be good classmates and not to discriminate against children with difficulties. its very easy to do this, it just requires a bit of empathy.

AmberLeaf Wed 27-Feb-13 13:31:24

what is the likely outcome?- do the interventions actually work and deliver someone capable of coping or what?

There will be lots of young adults that will always need support though, if children without SNs learn that they need to be understanding of people with SNs while they are young, then hopefully that will filter through to when they are adults, then I wont have to worry so much about the high chance of my son being attacked just for being a bit different.

elizabethaaliyah Wed 27-Feb-13 13:37:29

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

amck5700 Wed 27-Feb-13 13:37:55

My eldest is borderline for aspergers and was bullied for years in primary, moved to a different school for secondary and loving it - however, I see it that it is him with our support that needs to fit in rather than everyone else that needs to fit round him iyswim his issues are mainly social though so will come across as shy rather than anything else. Hope your son does well too.

Feelingood Wed 27-Feb-13 13:43:58

goldenbear you may criticise a particular method I use as a parent but please do not make a complete categorical judgment on my parenting as a whole based on the use of one method.

Any credibility you may have had in convincing me otherwise has just vanished. It may have been wise to ask what form of timeout I use, for how long, under what circumstances etc....

I've seen some nasty things said on here but to call someone incompetent using one criteria is ridiculous.

AmberLeaf Wed 27-Feb-13 13:46:41

Thanks.

I get what you mean about him needing to fit in rather than others fitting round him, but firstly there will come a day when he wont have your support to fit in and will have to manage on his own, that will be made easier if society as a whole is more open to difference and doesn't expect the impossible from people with SNs.

Adults on the autistic spectrum are very prone to isolation and depression, that is partially caused by a society that is not understanding of difference.

I see my goals as helping my son cope with life and everything it throws at him, but also doing whatever I can to improve understanding.

Feelingood Wed 27-Feb-13 13:50:40

z's my comparison was at a basic level that toddlers and we as adults sometimes need time to cool down. Removing a person from potential further harm to themselves or others is a commonly use strategy. But that is where the comparison ends, I was pointing it out as a principle.

The detail of how and when this is done is something entirely different.

I never said I shut anyone in a cupboard or condoned it. I would like to believe there must be many details that we are not aware of regarding the little boy at school and I don't believe such a decision would be take lightly.

At my last school a teacher lost it and locked a whole class in herself included until and issue was resolved. She clearly over stepped the mark and and she acknowledged this herself she was let go.

zzzzz Wed 27-Feb-13 13:55:57

The world would be a better place if everyone read this at least once a week.

http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml

zzzzz Wed 27-Feb-13 13:56:24

The world would be a better place if everyone read this at least once a week.

www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml

amck5700 Wed 27-Feb-13 14:03:08

It's a scary thought them being grown up, but i don't see his future as any different than it always was. He is very clever, loves computers and engineering and drawing. He is now at a more academic school so fits in better - he will likely go for a boffin type career so he will fit in in his society. I think it will be unlikely that he will be down the nite clubs trying to connect that way - there is a place for everyone I think.

But everyone has to conform to the basic society norms for behaviour (e.g. non violent/not destroying property etc) at some point or they will find themselves locked up in some way or another. I see that as what the school in the origin of this post was trying to do.

Goldenbear Wed 27-Feb-13 14:10:14

Feelingood, it is not my place to convince you otherwise but I don't understand what is 'nasty' about a view I hold, it is not personal to you. I think it is an incompetent approach because it is applied in an arbitrary way with no understanding of child development at a toddler age. It is completely unnecessary to put a toddler in 'time out', they are so young, it is awful.

zzzzz Wed 27-Feb-13 14:14:05

"Everyone has to conform"...... Not everyone can.

AmberLeaf Wed 27-Feb-13 14:17:03

Obviously I don't know your son, but as you say he is without a diagnosis and borderline, then Im guessing he doesn't have the same severity of difficulties as my son and many others.

I agree that everyone has to conform, but that in our society there is little tolerance of those that find conformity a challange for various reasons which are rarely willfull.

I see that as what the school in the origin of this post was trying to do

I see their alleged actions as doing a very bad job of it though. obviously that way is not seen as productive and that is why it is illegal.

amck5700 Wed 27-Feb-13 14:18:45

but golden you made it personal and nasty - each to their own until it impacts on others I say. I just don't want to be the parent of the child that hits people in soft play and gets a cuddle and sent back in. A toddler can understand that if he/she hits then they don't get to play for a little while and if they don't hit they get to play without being taken out. I bet they understand that better than being talked to about how it isn't nice - though I hope they get that too while they are sat out.

Viviennemary Wed 27-Feb-13 14:28:18

Well the authorities haven't really come up with a method of discipline that works and is acceptable. Have they? They do not give enough support to teachers handling extremely difficult and challenging behaviour. It's all swept under the carpet.

Apart from PRUs and short stay schools, Viviennmary, which can lead to reintegration into mainstream education somewhere along the line and are staffed with experienced and well trained teachers and support staff.

Goldenbear Wed 27-Feb-13 14:38:03

amck, no I didn't. I said it is incompetent because it is. If you want to do that with your toddler, still in the throes of babyhood that is your choice but it is not a competent way to deal with that age group. Take some time to establish what you toddler can and can't understand and don't have unrealistic expectations. I blame all these silly child rearing programmes for this practice.

amck5700 Wed 27-Feb-13 14:42:02

I disagree - you told another poster that she was an incompetent parent, that's the way she took it and I took it - so what wasn't personal about that? As I say, each to their own. so what specifically do you do then? - it's easy to critise others but if you have the answer then surely you should share.

learnandsay Wed 27-Feb-13 14:42:12

What is the toddler doing, exactly? What is a timeout? Is it sitting on the naughty step or similar?

amck5700 Wed 27-Feb-13 14:46:41

...and if you don't teach them then their understanding wont move on will it so they will remain at a baby stage.

mathsmum Wed 27-Feb-13 17:15:40

op - you have my every sympathy

the school staff apear to have acted to stop an out-of-control child rampaging round the school with a knife - but they are in the wrong, apparantly

is the child back in the school? is so, i would be tempted to take my kids out for a couple of days - and make it clear i would not let them go to school till i was certain of their safety

Educationalshame Wed 27-Feb-13 17:36:17

I thought I would update you. There was no knife involved at all it has been confirmed today. www.blackpool.gov.uk/News/BlackpoolCouncilstatementonRevoeSchool.htm
and my children went to school today smile Thank you for all your support I will up date when I know more. At the minute it is still under investigation

LineRunner Wed 27-Feb-13 17:43:30

I wonder who started the knife rumour, and why.

Educationalshame Wed 27-Feb-13 17:51:54

No idea. None of the parents i spoke to or teachers mentioned a knife so it is anyone's guess really.

AmberLeaf Wed 27-Feb-13 18:14:32

Probably someone who has an agenda of criminalising children with SNs.

Certainly got everyone frothing though didn't it.

learnandsay Wed 27-Feb-13 18:20:19

Did it come from a newspaper?

zzzzz Wed 27-Feb-13 18:29:22

So not a rampaging knife wielding maniac then.

ClayDavis Wed 27-Feb-13 18:38:24

I've seen this happen a couple of times with stories on the DM website. They print something with an unsubstantiated claim or with extra info added to appeal to their readers then later rewrite the story. As its on the website an not the print version they don't have to print a retraction or acknowledge changes.

Unfortunately, some papers, like the Telegraph, seem to pick stories straight off the DM website. I suspect in this case they picked it up between the knife welding 9 yearold version Feenie read and the version the OP linked to.

lljkk Wed 27-Feb-13 19:03:35

Small DS had a violent meltdown at a sports club and he ended up being locked alone (forced) inside a cupboard briefly.

DH & I apologised to the club organisers & bollocked DS. Made him apologise formally, too.

Still seems all correct to me, apart from DS's meltdown.

vjg13 Wed 27-Feb-13 19:57:38

We were visiting a special school to see if it was suitable for our child (secondary). A older child was being restrained in a walk in cleaner's type cupboard, with a staff member holding the door. The head teacher was showing us round. No idea if there were any staff in there as well. I managed to get to the car park before crying. I would never have been able to send my child there.

cornycruzcampo Thu 28-Feb-13 00:23:51

There's a difference between a meltdown and a temper tantrum. We don't know which applies in this case. Not that being locked in a cupboard is an effective method of dealing with either situation.

zzzzz Thu 28-Feb-13 00:35:15

Neither "meltdown" nor "temper tantrum" are technical terms.

ZombiesAreClammyDodgers Thu 28-Feb-13 01:21:21

amberleaf what are these so called "sensible behaviour management strategies"?? Lovely to wrap concepts in pretty words.
Child brandishes knife and kicks people and gets locked up for the safety of the others including the children.
Simples.

AmberLeaf Thu 28-Feb-13 01:32:16

There was no knife.

Do keep up.

'sensible behavior management strategies' are sensible strategies for managing behavior...obviously.

ZombiesAreClammyDodgers Thu 28-Feb-13 06:41:31

...such as??

ZombiesAreClammyDodgers Thu 28-Feb-13 06:43:32

Ah but ljikk sadly parents like you appear to be in the minority. Now it's all about talk to them trying to tell them the error of your ways whilst getting kicked on the shins.

ZombiesAreClammyDodgers Thu 28-Feb-13 06:44:17

Of THEIR ways, sorry

Callthemidlife Thu 28-Feb-13 07:04:10

I know that there are so many disablists out there in RL. And I know that reasoning with such bigoted ignorance is impossible, but my god it does make me want to cry when I see all this violently offensive stuff witten down on a screen in front of me. So many people should be so deeply ashamed of themselves, and the crazy thing is they don't even know it.

I cling to the knowledge that when I was growing up in the 80s stuff like gay-bashing and calling people 'niggers' was tolerated by certain sections of society and eventually cultural change stopped these attitudes. I only hope that growing cultural awareness will similarly help some of the people on here who think it totally appropriate (still) to send kids away, look them up, and sneer at their parents. I wouldn't wish a SEN child on anyone but do sometimes wish that those who are so ignorant could just for a moment experience what is like on the other side of the fence. Because if the likes of l&s spent just a single day immersed in the reality of life, well, there would one less ignorant person, at least.

nooka Thu 28-Feb-13 07:23:27

Behaviour management is essentially about understanding the child's difficulties and figuring out the best way to avoid the triggers that result in the meltdown or violent behviour. With an older child you can work in partnership with the child, with a younger child that partnership will generally be with the parents.

My ds when small threw huge tantrums during which he was completely out of control. Stuffing him in a cupboard would have hugely escalated the event as well as leaving him very scared (the meltdowns scared him enough as it was). The best way to manage him in such circumstances was to leave him alone until he was worn out. Any intervention made things much much worse. Transitions were a common trigger, and the best way to manage them was to give him a lot of warning.

Luckily he went to a lovely caring nursery and a great school, and as he has got older he has learned to manage his emotions and control his impulses. A little understanding goes a long way in my opinion.

ZombiesAreClammyDodgers Thu 28-Feb-13 08:22:36

I don't know anything about the child in question. But how can you differentiate between SEN and a badly behaved child?
I am NOT disablist. I am wondering whether it is possible that a badly behaved child who is just plain violent or tantrummy can be dealt with in a manner different from a child who has genuine needs.

HotheadPaisan Thu 28-Feb-13 11:10:37

All behaviour is telling you something though. Happy, secure kids are not angry and violent. Different strategies work for different issues and causes and all children are different too.

Traditional approaches just do not work for some, DS1 simply can't make himself do what's needed sometimes (neurological/sensory issues just block him). It's awful to watch because it's him who suffers the most. So for months he went without going to the baker's to get a cake because he simple couldn't face the sensory issues involved in getting out of the house on a Sat am after the stress of school, so he didn't go and he didn't get a cake.

Eventually we encouraged him out but it wasn't easy and it's sometimes at a cost to him of getting overloaded and melting down. You have to want to understand all this, it's not easy to explain or live with.

Nearly all evidence suggests that positive behaviour strategies work best - most people want to be involved and included and to get it right and are motivated best by working towards something rather than taking things away. It's a balance.

ReallyTired Thu 28-Feb-13 14:49:16

"'sensible behavior management strategies' are sensible strategies for managing behavior...obviously. "

Typical strageries.

* TA watching the child from out of sight and ignoring the tantrum. keeping the chidlren away so there is no audience.

* Two members of staff physically restraining the child using approach techniques if the child is danger to other children or themselves. The child is held until they have calmed down. This is physically and emotionally very hard to do which is probably why the crap school went for the lock in the cupboard method.

However long term strageries prevent tantrums.

Ie.
Watching for body language that a child is finding the situation too much before they blow. A good TA or teacher can prempt a difficult situation by managing transitions or sending the child on a pointless errand to get the ants out of their pants.

Giving the child a time out card if they need to go voluntarily to the calm room.

Teaching the child relaxation methods and anger management techniques.

Most important, high quality teaching so the child is neither lost nor bored.

Often good behaviour management strageries are good for ALL children.

Hopefully this school will get back on track with good county intervention. I dread to think what it would be like if an academy or a foundation stage got into this sort of mess.

HotheadPaisan Thu 28-Feb-13 16:04:53

That really concerns me to RT, the only realistic course of action for a parent or child unhappy with the treatment of a child will be to go to the police.

Agree that good strategies benefit all and there are often warning signs, not always though, and that is where emergency strategies are needed.

ReallyTired Thu 28-Feb-13 18:46:22

HotheadPaisan

Why are you worried?

In a good school physical restraint is only used when there is no other option. Surely you would not want your child to injure themselves or be injured by others.

It is completely legal for teachers to use reasonable physical intervention to maintain the safety of the child, other people or even to maintain good discipline. Physical intervention properly carried out does not hurt the child.

Generally physical intervention is only used when the consequences of not intervening are far worse. (Ie. picking up a child who has sat down in the middle of a road, breaking up a fight, stopping a child from commiting suicide.)

Schools have to formally record any incidences in a book when physical intervention has been used. Schools should have a policy on physical intervention. Any member of staff who uses physical intervention needs to be trained so that they know how to intervene without hurting the child and do so in the right circumstances.

HotheadPaisan Thu 28-Feb-13 19:07:49

Lack of transparency concerns me with Academies. This has got attention because the LA got involved, that wouldn't happen with an Academy.

ReallyTired Thu 28-Feb-13 21:03:31

"Lack of transparency concerns me with Academies. This has got attention because the LA got involved, that wouldn't happen with an Academy. "

I can't blame you. Teachers often have their heads up their own back sides at the best of times.

Virtually every special school in the land wants to opt out of LEA control because it increases their chances of surivial. It is about teachers' jobs rather than what is best for individual pupils. LEAs are desperate for money and want to selll the land that special schools are on. If a special school has foundaton status then they become the owners of their land. This is awful in more ways than one.

1) If the special school gets sued then the school may well be forced to sell the buildings and close to pay off the court case. Difficult to place chidlren could find themselves without a school at very short notice

2) Children in foundation status special schools do not access to LEA services automatically. Schools have to buy in outside visual Impairment support or autism support or physio or even occupational health for staff. If a school is run like a business they will do anything to avoid bringing in an expert.

3) Academies/ foundation schools do not have to make any attempt to follow the national curriculum. Low expectations has been a huge issue in special schools. If a school does not have to follow the national curriculum then they will not even attempt to meet national expectations.

4) Foundation schools will have limited relationships with other schools in the area.

5) Lack of support for children whose placement at a school fails or appealing against wrongful exclusion.

The whole idea of academies is an ill thought out mess.

Educationalshame Fri 01-Mar-13 19:11:06

I had a letter today sad
It says that we will be hearing in the next few days (in the press) about children getting out of the school grounds unsupervised during school hours and that as parents we have to understand this is nothing to do with the teachers being suspended.
WHAT!!! So they send me this letter so I do not jump to conclusion from the press. Why was I not told about this when it happened? It says it happened over a MONTH ago!
angry Got the feeling loads more "Issues" are going to be bought to my attention over the next few weeks... FFS!!

MariusEarlobe Sat 02-Mar-13 16:28:30

I just posted about this on another thread as my mum told me about it, my dc used to go there before we moved when the old head who has now gone to the new free school was there. I must admit when I heard I was not suprised although I was at the scale of the staff suspended.

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