Teachers - please, how bad is this?(71 Posts)
Could any teacher please level this recount for me?
I am talking to HT this week and want to be prepared.
(DD is in Y5. I know the work is very bad for Y5. I need an idea of how bad)
we have aried at the Camp. it was a long gerne mast of the way we cam by ship then We all aot a camel to rid a and then we cnowd dawn the rive nils
oun we got the the camp sit it was mid day and we were agsorst Matthew mad diner he dernt the fish but it dint Mate bacusme We We hungry ruffle 10 o'cklo we go to in aw slepping bag and Quickly Went to sleep
That does seem below for year 5. Do you have any idea what level your dc is on?
As in secondary school?
Op said year 5.
I would say 2c at a push but I am not a teacher.
Yes- but what does that mean? In NI and Scotland it would be P5 for primary and 5th year for secondary.
Scarlett - Year 5 is like Scottish P6.
Ah, sorry year 5 is age 9-10.
In most LAs the dc go up to high school in year 7 (age 12-13)
no no higher than 2C but yes it is weak. I would want to know what they are putting in place to support her and what they have been doing before now. The school should have been monitoring her progress
I'm assuming you mean Yr5 in Primary.
I would say this is certainly Level 2 writing, some of the vocab is good, e.g. 'exhausted', and a few language features, such as the sentence opener 'Most of the way' and the adverb 'quickly'.
On the other hand, the lack of punctuation brings the level down. Also he's using phonetic spelling but clearly doesn't know his sounds confidently enough to use it correctly.
So overall, probably looking at a low 2. Have you been given any idea of his levels before?
Ok cool, I have many sixteen year olds at work with worse than this level so firstly I would say that while it obviously is not good, there is still plenty of time to improve things. I would be wanting to know exactly what steps the school will be taking to get her up to the required level. What measures they will be putting in place and what targets they will be setting within a specified time scale. Also, have they assessed her for a learning difficulty?
I'm a Y5 teacher. I would say that this would probably be levelled around a 2c/b. The particular difficulty your DD has seems to be with spelling and punctuation. The sentence construction is ok (just needs some more sentence punctuation and less use of "and"). She has some good language (long journey,most of the way, exhausted, roughly) but obviously needs some support. Can I ask what help she gets - is she having any intervention programmes?
Don't you need full stops as a minimum in punctuation for a 2c? (genuine question, I'm not a teacher)
OP, have school called the meeting or have you? Have they already told you they have strategies in place for her or is this the first you've heard about it?
Numbum - it's more of a 'best fit'. If full stops are the only thing missing from an otherwise higher piece of work you would level it higher, but it would affect the level and obviously that would be an issue for the teacher to take up if a more able child wasn't using any punctuation at all.
For a 2c you need evidence that the child has some understanding of sentence construction. As the child has put in one full stop and left gaps where a sentence ends this should be ok, although it is very lacking in punctuation. Even at the top of level 3, children do not need to have every sentence correctly punctuated.
It isn't a 'bad' piece of work, despite the levels. Your Dc has, I think, tried hard and been successful in choosing vocabulary and the story flows and makes sense. This child needs specialist support with the nuts and bolts of writing. If spelling can be made less effortful for him, better punctuation will then be easier to develop too.
(I am secondary and not specialist in Spld)
I am trying to say that for me, the level is irrrelevant here as there are things going on that need addressing.
Thanks for the opinions. It's very helpful.
The meeting is just a regular IEP review meeting. Nothing special. Just trying to get an idea of what should be in the IEP.
As a year 5 and 6 teacher, I would say your child has problems with phonics and possibly needs to be on phonics recovery programme such as Sound Discovery. Possibly dyslexic? Hard to tell from just this little bit and not knowing child. I would agree that it looks like about a level 1a/ 2c. The lower you get with levelling, the more difficult it becomes because there is less to base a judgement on. The sentence structures, despite missing punctuation, suggest more ability than at first glance - using 'when' to start sentence for example and use of adverb quickly. Hope that helps.
So, assuming this is not her best work, because it was done at home when she'd rather be playing, you think I can assume she is a level 2?
School want to use stile spelling and stile comprehension with her - though I'm not sure if that's what they use with the whole class or if it's actually an intervention. Does anyone know if stile is any good?
Has she been assessed for dyslexia? The spelling mistakes and reversals look consistent with a spld. What is her maths/science like?
I'm not familiar with stile.
Oh yes, she has a dx of dyslexia. And she gets extra support.
It doesn't look as though she's getting much phonics support!
This is Stile:
I used it years ago. Not at all effective. In fact, I had one lad who had 'done' Stile so often at his primary school that he knew all the 'patterns' and could complete the exercise correctly just by knowing which pieces went where to get the right pattern! It did nothing for his spelling
I agree with SJKenyon, she needs a good phonics programme, one which involves learning to automaticity how the sounds are spelled and using them to write words. Spelling has a strong kinaesthetic memory element to it. Making patterns in trays won't supply that; she needs to be writing the words.
I agree stile is not effective and so bliddy boring
So what kind of thing would you put on her IEP?
I would want a detailed assessment of phonic knowledge and a high quality phonics programme delivered by someone who knows what they are doing.
What is her handwriting like?
Handwriting is OK.
Maths and science are OK.
Reading age is 7.10
She can't have a phonics programme delivered by someone who knows what they're doing, because no one in the school knows what they're doing.
She can't even have a phonics programme delivered by someone who doesn't know what they're doing because the school still believes in Searchlight.....
She really need a good phonics programme for reading (including comprehension) and spelling. Do you know what programme the school uses other than Stile? If they are using Searchlight I'm afraid it is unlikely they have invested in a quality prog
Handwriting can often help with spelling.
Can you recommend any programmes? Especially that include comprehension?
They won't agree to them. But I'd rather ask for something than just say no to stile....
Given that the school has no real phonics in place I would probably ask for Ruth Miskin Fresh Start and Comprehension.
Bear Necessities from Sound Foundations is quite simple to deliver and the Apples & Pears spelling prog likewise
Well, I know that mrz doesn't like Read Write Inc, but there's RWI Freshstart, a 'booster' programme for Y5 - Y8. I use it with Y7s & 8s, but it does have to be used by someone who knows what they are doing
Or there's the Burkards' programme often reccommended on here, Apples & Pears
aarrgh, too many 'c's in 'recommended'...
mrz - why do you not like read, write Inc? My school are trialling it for Y3 and Y4 intervention children in the afternoons.
I have seen "toe by toe" have excellent results and very easy to use at home. Google it and see what you think.
Apples & Pears is much better than Toe by Toe IMHO.
Don't get me wrong Ruprekt RWI works it's just down to personal preference based on obs and talking to teachers who use it. I can't say for sure the teachers I've seen are using it as intended but it seems to take over everything as far as literacy is concerned.
She's doing apples and pears at home - that's why her spelling is so good!
I've asked for all her 1:1 to be stopped because I believe it's doing more harm than good.
They were quite happy to stop her daily 1:1 but when I asked them to also stop doing flash cards they got cross
I don't expect any help from school. I'm just trying to stop them from making things worse.
"Once we got to the camp, it was midday and we were all exhausted". Hardly a 1a
Apples and pears is far better than toe by toe IMO.
And step by step and RWI.
I have tried them all.
My son (also year 5) and dx as dyslexic is doing really well on apples and pears.
I'm not sure if I have understood properly, your daughter has a "diagnosis" of dyslexia and is significantly under-performing in literacy, but you have asked them to stop all her one to one? Why is that? How can they offer her a specialised intervention such as suggested up thread, if she isnt getting any one to one?
I asked them to stop all her 1:1 because they were doing flash cards with her and encouraging her to guess. So the more 1:1 she got the worse her reading got.
It was making the phonics work I'm doing at home with her useless.
Plus she was being withdrawn from class and missing out on something else in order to be taught badly.
She's had a lot of 1:1. An awfult lot It's never helped. I've had enough now.
There's no way I'd stop it if it was helping.
They're not doing a specialised intervention with her. And they won't.
Full stops and capital letters
Well first I'll be cynical: your DD has potential for significantly up-leveling her work by improving her grammar and spelling, so with next year being SATs year she should be targeted for support.
I'm a SENCO, I don't normally say on here under any username but this caught my eye, to be blunt your daughter needs a lot of input to realise her potential. She is quite able looking at her writing but unable to spell in line with her abilities.
You need to ask for her one to one back, BUT with a clear idea of how it will be used. She doesn't need to be withdrawn from the room for this, but can have additional support in class, e.g. forming sentences on a whiteboard with the TA before writing them in her book, writing a word bank with the TA during carpet time to use in her writing, working on a table with others, finishing 5 min earlier than the class to correct work with a TA, supported use of a laptop with co-writer software in some lessons, individual targets supported by TA...the list is endless
1. I don't know your school/ LEA/ borough but ask the SENCO, you should be able to phone her to phone you back, and find out what the contact details for your area parent forum/ group are. Speak to them and find out what support is commonly available for your area. This could be anything from assessments to programmes.
2. Don't under estimate the value of what you do at home, particularly if you can instil a love of books. Find a good librarian, listen to audio books, read ANYTHING of interest. Enjoy reading, don't do it for learnings sake. Also carry on with apples and pears, it's good.
3. you, or the school, look into http://www.unitsofsound.net/ to see if it's affordable (£80 home use), can't recommend it enough
4. Try to find a way of writing at home, e.g. a journal. Focus on ONE target at a time to correct and improve in her writing. Ignore all other errors until she meets a target and praise a lot, re-write corrected sections. I'd start with capital letters and full stops. Google reading/ writing targets online and help your DD pick a list to tick off as she meets them, help her be realistic in this.
5. Access all the free online resources out there, e.g. bbc phonics/ bitesize,
6. Talk to her teacher. Phonics does not work for every child! Experiment, maybe look/ cover/ write/ check works, tracing around words. Talk to her, do certain spellings stick, why? I have one boy who benefits from re-arranging given letters (magnetic plastic!) to learn spellings, another spelling games like tutpup.com, or even writing words in colours.
baby crying now... I hope I've been of some help
She gets 1:1 like you mention from the class TA. It's only being withdrawn for 10 minutes to read ORT and then do flash cards which I've asked to stop.
But all the 1:1 from the class TA doesn't help either because they're not doing phonics. So they'll choose 3 words she spelt wrong and correct them and ask her to write them out 3 times - but those 3 words won't have anything in common. They won't show her the phenomena in the word, they'll just ask her to copy them out. And it does not help at all.
Absolutely no point in talking to the teacher. He's a Y5 teacher. He's never taught a child to read in his life. He has never been on a phonics training course.
I have had lots and lots and lots of talks with her teachers and SENCOs. Which is how I know they don't know what they're doing.
Phonics does work with DD, just school won't teach her that way
I'm well aware how much extra support DD needs but when the support they give her is bad for her because the school is not good at teaching children to read, what can I do?
units of sound (computer programme) is what I've had most success with with older children/ non-phonics trained staff (only so many...)
could she mentor younger children having phonic interventions? Infant staff have more phonic training generally, could she be talked up as a role model and take on the special job of helping as an official mentor/ reading buddy (and benefi herself from going back?)
also at home go right back and work through again each phase. http://www.tes.co.uk/teaching-resource/Phonics-Passport-Phase-2-5-assessment-booklet-6229998/ ask this is what she does in 1-2-1 or http://www.tes.co.uk/teaching-resource/list-of-good-phonic-websites-6023535/
try to remember she's not behind as such, it looksage appropriate aside from a specific area of difficulty
It's a junior school, with no KS1, which is why they get away with still doing searchlight instead of phonics.
I could ask them to do phonics with her in 1:1 - but I don't trust them to do it.
If they fundamentally don't agree that phonics is the best way to teach children to read, they won't teach it properly.
I need her to stop being encouraged to guess, look at the first letters, look at the pictures, etc. And the only way I can do that is by stopping the 1:1 (although she'll still get that in guided reading)
She's had an awful lot of 1:1. It's only now that I've realised why it' not been helping......
Like ops dd, my ds has what I would call gaps in his phonic knowledge.
I have been using apples and pears for spelling and grammar and handwriting with great success but that a can I use for phonics?
Can't really afford to buy a programme ATM tbh...is letters and sounds a good resource?
Start from beginning? Straight to phase 5-6?
badvoc, http://www.phonicsplay.co.uk/Assessment.htm sheets to find what gaps are
As Apples and Pears is phonics based it will do fine for learning letter/sound correspondences. If a child can write a word , saying each sound as they write it (this is really important; sounds not letter names) they should be able to read it, too.
I think that Debbie Hepplewhite has a phonics assessment sheet on her Phonics International website. (Plus lots of other information). If you can use that to find out the gaps in his phonic knowledge then you really needn't look any further than her site for resources to 'fill' the gaps at an extremely low price. (disclaimer: I know Debbie but I have no commercial interest whatsoever in her programme; I just know that it is very good)
Quite honestly, I don't think that an ICT based programme like Units of Sound is as good as direct teaching by a human! There's an interesting post about this HERE by an EP and Reading Researcher (original was posted on a SENCo Forum).
I would also question the statement that 'Phonics does not work for every child' The number of children who cannot grasp phonics is absolutely minimal and it is highly unlikely that CandC and Badvoc's DCs are among them. It's phonics mixed with 'other strategies', as CandC recognises, which really confuses children. I know that mrz, with whom most of you are familiar, would agree with me and she is a SENCo, too
I have worked with KS3 'strugglers' for the last 8 years and I have never yet encountered a child for whom phonics doesn't work. That's well over 100 children, so statistically I should have had at least one or two.
Units of Sound does fit at all with how phonics is taught Badvoc and would probably be very confusing.
I was going to say that ICT isn't a substitute for good teaching and can actually cause more problems than they solve if not supported by a knowledgeable "teacher".
I've encountered two children in 30 years who couldn't grasp phonics (one being my own son) and both were disadvantaged ...
Mrz...Yes, I checked it out last night online and I was very confused!
I really rate bear neccessities and apples dn pears as you know, but I just think I need to know what ds is missing wrt phonics knowledge iyswim?
His teachers are nice but I think they see me as one if "those parents"
Ds has made huge progress in the last year and I want him to continue to do so.
(He has gone from level 1s across the board at the start if year 4 to 3s across the board ATM on year 5)
He hates apples and pears, sadly but it has really helped his spelling and writing.
My son got a star writer of the week certificate last week for a book review he wrote...never thought I would see the day
I will check our Debbie Hepplewhite, thanks.
It is something I have been guilty of In the past tbh...I.e chopping and changing approaches (SP, learn and say etc) through sheer desperation to help my son
Thank for the advice x
Have you looked at the assessments on the Sound Foundations web site ...they are very detailed used by the Gloucestershire LEA in their intervention
your earlier question about Letters & Sounds
Not really ...it's one of the better publications from the DfE but has lots of flaws
That should be Units of Sound doesn't fit at all
It is something I have been guilty of In the past tbh...I.e chopping and changing approaches (SP, learn and say etc) through sheer desperation to help my son
Don't beat yourself up about it! It won't have done much harm so long as you are consistent from now on
units of sound is from the dyslexia association, tracking pupils progress at school over the past 3/4 years it was the intervention with the best progress. I didn't like it as such, but came to like it over the years. What it can do is offer some way towards a multi-sensory approach that dyslexic children often require
I currently have two children at my own school that made no progress in phonics interventions, probably knew about 8 over the years and I was one myself, though maybe in retrospect it was my poor abilities learning through auditorymethods. Phonics teaching can (not always) over rely on listening to sounds, other methods may have simply been presented through more visual means (eg flash cards and look/ cover) or kinsetic (eg laying out wooden letters/ cards, drawing around the shape of words, tracing over spellings, active games etc) Isn't it about 80% that learn best through phonics? It's not likely, but at this stage with a dx of dyslexia deserves some thought before being dismissed out of hand.
There's no point in arguing it out though, I think you want advice other than mine. I can advise on phonics but I think you have advice here already. The main thing is a child becomes a confident reader, something we all want.
Isn't it about 80% that learn best through phonics? no
Phonics teaching can (not always) over rely on listening to sounds, other methods may have simply been presented through more visual means
How do you learn to read by non visual means?
I will check that out mrz thanks
I think you will find Morse code is transcribed from sound into written words learnandsay ...and it's pretty difficult to draw around the shape of the word or the trace over it if it's written in Braille
Replace 'over rely' with 'non visual' and it's funny? You don't want to discuss it I take it? I personally find exploring multi-sensory learning very interesting, but each to their own. I'm not attempting to say phonics is bad or not to be used, what I'm saying is like anything I've seen it taught badly and for me there was a lot of listening to sounds, matching things that sounded the same and a lot more spoken discussion in phonics lessons than for other methods. I've seen many a session filled with pointing to a sound, saying and repeating the sound aloud only, no whiteboards even. Listen to the sounds, blend them out loud etc. Poor/lazy phonics teaching is likely to be the reason phonics failed for me and others, rather than phonics as a system. I had high frequency hearing loss as well which further impacted on my ability to blend sounds after they were spoken to me, I got a lot of the approach of saying the 'sound buttons' e.g. c-a-t then asking me to blend them. I recognised many words before I spoke them correctly and relied heavily on memory rather than sounded out, I loved my dictionary! I later improved with phonics recognising the building blocks to make words, e.g. the familiar endings 'tion' or 'ful'. The way to correct this is simply more multi-sensory approaches in early phonics teaching, e.g. drawing letters on a child's back as they are spoken, tracing letters, using colours for breaking down words, moving letters/ sections physically, playing snap with sounds, relying on motor skills through continuous cursive writing when spelling etc.
I feel I've wasted my time posting this as I'm sure you'll pick out one sentence to make a dimissive comment on...
I am always fascinated by the belief that tracing letters on a child's back can teach them to read. How? Just what is the scientific explanation for this? Likewise, feeling letters in bags and laying out alphabet arcs? They have nothing at all to do with reading. To learn to read a child has to learn to associate a sound with the letters that represent it.
I have to say that from your description I think you have seen and experienced some poor phonics teaching, but I'm afraid that some of the 'multi sensory' methods promoted by the dyslexia 'establishment' just defy logic.
That's not to say that good phonics teaching isn't multisensory. It is visual, aural, oral and kinaesthetic ; see the letters, say the sounds, hear the sounds, write the sounds. It can also involve 'feeling' how sounds are formed in the mouth and 'seeing' how they are formed. A while ago I read a long article about Dr Orton* and the beginings of his work with 'dyslexics'. That article characterised 'multi-sensory' in the way that I have just done. Nothing more. I fear that all the other stuff is add-ons over the years. I have searched for academic studies to back up the practices you outline, but there is nothing.
I did use a 'conventional' dyslexia programme, many years ago, trained by our then SEN teacher, and it was frustration at children's slow (or non-existent) progress with it that had me looking for other ways of working.
*I didn't bookmark it, unfortunately and I've never been able to find it again
That article sounds interesting, reminds me of how as a ToD we used to teach children to feel sounds, e.g. 'fff' sound to blow out candle ('th' doesn't), c shape with fingers at throat to feel where it formed, lots of mirrors to see movement.
My latest headache is we've always performed well above local/ national levels for reeading progress/ attainment and our SEN perform particularly well as a group in reading progress...yet with the introduction of the new yr 1 phonics we did quite poorly, relatively. In particular it was a challenge for higher and lower attainers with middle doing the best.
maize, maybe with some of ours the letter tracing etc. just gets a bit more concentration?
and why do you imagine for one minute that phonics teaching isn't multi sensory CeceliaStrange?
Have looked at that resource mrz and it does tally with what we did in bear neccessities (we did half of book 1 but then I decided apples and pears was the way to go and we are now halfway through book b)
Ds can do all of that, so I don't think that's what I need.
I am pretty sure he is working at phase 6 phonics but other than phonics play I can't find any other resource to tell me what he should be doing/able to do.
In apples and pears ATM he is doing endings eg: ing and what happens to the initial word...eg: nothing, lose the e etc.
Sorry, I am not a teacher so don't know the correct terminology!
He is currently able to read chapter books like astronauts and dinosaur cove quite well.
He also loves the usborne non fiction historical series, but they seem a bit easy for him tbh.
It's assessment week 1st week in march at school so will have a better idea of his levels then.
I set a target for him that he would be level 4s across the board at end of year 5 not sure whether that will happen now but it won't be for want of trying!
ATM he is doing brain training type exercises to help with spatial awareness, memory, etc. he is doing pretty well.
Will carry on with apples and pears after we have finished them.
Phase 6 is suffixes and prefixes so knowing when to double the final consonant before adding "ing" etc.
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