What would you think if this was happening in your y3 child's class?(187 Posts)
And what, if anything, would you do?
One of the children is very disruptive, including bouts of physical and verbal violence, e.g.:
-Swearing at the class and teacher
-Tearing up his own and others' work
-Pacing around the class when they are supposed to be working/listening
-Walking out of class meaning the teacher has to leave to bring him back
-There have also been two complaints from children/parents about him touching girls inappropriately (now has 121 at lunchtimes, so is constantly watched)
At least one from this list happens daily, once it was so extreme that the teacher had to remove the rest of the class from the room while two TA's tried to calm him. School was unable to contact anyone to collect him so he spent the rest of the day in the Head's office, as the TA basically refused to work with him. He's big for his age, strong and scary when he loses control.
My DS2 is in this class. I know all the detail because of my job, most parents of course will only have patchy stories relayed by their DC, but they all know there is a problem. To avoid drip feeding, I will also say I know that he is a very damaged child as a result of sexual abuse and currently living with a foster family. Other parents know nothing of this of course.
I am interested in an opinion from the POV of the parents who know nothing of his background, please.
I would think that the kid was either messed up emotionally or had asd. I would trust that school were doing all they could to manage an extremely challenging situation and would expect lots of parents had been in 'to complain'.
I would encourage my ds not to wind him up and not exclude him from their games and play unless he hurt people.
Gosh, I have a dd in Year 3 and I would be concerned and pissed off if she was witnessing this behaviourand having her lesson wrecked daily. The child sounds deeply damaged and in need of more help than he is currently getting but ultimately my concern would be for dd not him.
As pp my concern would be for my child. Id complain and tell my dc to stay away from him.
I would assume that the child needed specialist intervention, but wouldn't want to hazard what that might encompass.
The other DCs do however need to be safe, and items in the classroom should not be destroyed. If he is in such a bad place personally that even that level of behaviour cannot realistically be achieved, then perhaps in his own interests he needs to be in a different setting until progress is made, and then a decision about what is in his best interests in terms of reintegrating into the original setting or giving a fresh start.
I hope the boy can be provided with the help he needs.
My dd is in Y3 and I would be really upset for her if this was happening in her class.
That's not to take away any concerns about the boy and his well being. I would be thinking also that he may not be receiving the help he needs. However, as harsh as it may sound - I wouldn't want him in my dd's classroom.
From Reception to beginning of Y3, there was a boy in my dd's class who was disruptive and had lots of SN. However, he was never violent. He was actually really popular with the other dcs and there was much sadness amongst them when he moved to a different school. I think it's the violent outbursts, ripping up others work and disrupting the whole class on a regular basis that would get me in to complain.
Poor boy your poor Ds and his class
Yes, of course nobody would want this in their child's class, that goes without saying. My ds had such a boy in his class who recently left to attend a more specialist school better equipped to deal with his complex needs. I saw the mum crying on a daily basis and when I spoke to her and found out about her (adopted) son's hideous start to life my heart went out to her.
The school was never going to tolerate it for long. This boy will have to go somewhere more suited to him.
I would complain. I would acknowledge that it was not the child's fault but that neither his needs or those of the other children were being met. I would have to put my child's needs first.
Has anyone applied for a statutory assessment? Are any external agencies involved? Is the TA 1-2-1 with him or is she a class TA? Either way, if she can't work with him anymore someone else has to be found, quickly. Someone should be assessing this situation and taking action.
Parents should demand action to help him and others, so should you, the TA, the CT, everyone.
This is really difficult. There was a boy who sounds very similar in my ds's class from Reception to, I think, year 3. It was disruptive when he went on what my ds called a "rampage" , but never for long.
I think, looking back on it that ds learned loads from having this boy in his class, about how to deal with difficult people, about empathy. But it didn't always feel that way at the time, I agree.
Firstly, I am shocked that you think it appropriate to share all the details which you have received via your job.
Secondly, it's impossible to give ' an opinion from the POV of the parents who know nothing of his background', because you've given the background.
Thirdly, I would hope that I would push the school to make the provision the DC needed because it is him who is being failed, daily. The other children may well be impacted, but how awful for a boy to be playing out his distress daily and becoming a 'problem'.
Lougle and seeker, I agree with you both.
My memories are clouded by feelings of sorrow for the child and his parents. Thinking back there were definitely times when I thought 'ffs, enoughs enough now' but I agree that my ds has learned a lot about acceptance and empathy. Not so easy to see it that way if your dc is affected daily I know.
I would be horrified that my child had to witness any of that and I would be truely worried a out the education that the children r missing as a result.
I would also be horrified that, that poor boy had got to yr three and still no one had been able to get through to him and give him
The help he needs. It is vital that something be done before he gets even bigger and stronger and becomes a danger to others and of course himself. Sounds like school needs to admit they can't handle him and stop messing him up even more with inconsistent patchy attempts.
I think he needs a hell of alot more help and support before he can fully enter an educational setting. It's not fair on the others and it's not fair on him. That poor boy
I completely agree with lougle. This poor boy obviously needs more support than he's been given, and instead of being seen as a problem, should be supported.
Sorry if this comes across as rude but I really think it is inappropriate that you have shared such confidential information about a child that you have gained in a (I assume) professional capacity on a forum such as this. How can you not expect that your post might out the background of this child in real life?
Extremely unprofessional of you to have shared this information.
I agree with ChristmasJubilee.
id assume the boy had some sort of SN or he was being abused
My ds1 had two kids like that in his yr3 class
Ultimately, we removed our child from the school
Ds1 is very young and immature and it had a massive impact on him.
We were considering getting a psych consult for him due to his rages and threatening behaviour st home
We moved primary schools and he is now doing really well.
We are getting him assessed for aspergers just now.
He has a problem with social interaction himself and in he first school he had completely shut down. The teachers thought he was a quiet and shy boy, at home we knew he was troubled a d angry .
THe new school see him as a really clever articulate silly child but from the day he left the old school, he changed so much you wouldn't believe it.
I'd do the same iver again
It's so sad, the poor damaged kids we are talking abiut. The boy in our school was really messed up too. The girl was very voilent.
But in the end you have to look after your own children, if they can cope with the disruption and learn tolerant behaviour etc then that's fab. And that is what I thought was going on for my Ds1. It was amazing to take him away from all of that and see him blossom into the happy boy he is today.
Don't underestimate the impact on he other kids
I would say the boy has ASD and needs far more help than he appears to be getting.
I'd say this child and all the others are being very badly let down by the school. You and all the other parents need to complain to the Head.
Home-educate. I can't see how you can teach much in that kind of environment.
OP I would ask to have this deleted if I were you. There is far too much info in your first post.
I think it's very sad and I feel for that boy who is obviously lost and damaged. However, he needs more help than this and should be removed from the class as it is also not fair for others to suffer this and witness it. Other children are at risk of harm so he needs to be removed from the class.
He needs help and development and management rather than censure, but it sounds like he is currently a risk to others. I am no expert but I would think a case conference is in order involving the school, the foster parents, an Ed Psych and social services. Poor boy.
He is entitled to an education and entitled to an inclusive environment, but not at the risk of other children.
I work in a school & would not dream of sharing such information. I hope the Childs parents/carers do not recognise themselves.
I would ask to have this thread removed.
I have experienced this and have things I'd say if I were not so concerned about your sharing information you learnt through your job.
If this had been my child's class when we were going through it, I am pretty sure I would have known it from the post. Or I would have assumed it was my child's class in error which is possibly even worse.
Please ask for this post to be deleted (and think about your professional duties of confidentiality).
I know a boy like this, he is seriously autistic. People left the school because of the serious disruption ( class had to be evacuated twice a day). he is now in a special school, but the parents had to fight the lea like lions to get him there...
Oh, and DS1's class were removed one day because of his inability to cope then. He is one of the ones the other class are learning tolerance and understanding of difference about but there were times when we nearly removed him let alone anyone else. I wonder where people think these kids go though? How do they learn to socialise if they are not supported and included?
As for sharing info, I suppose I might recognise DS1 is some scenarios sometimes on MN but how else do people get advice and understand what the options are?
There will be signs he's about to lose control, he may not be able to cope FT in the class, there are a million things that could be done to help. Everyone has to want to understand and help.
I don't there is far too much info in the first post. I think there are sadly many boys in the country this could be.
This was my DS in Y3 (apart from the inappropriate touching). DS hadn't shown any such behaviour previously, and so I (thankfully, and the very thought makes me well up even now) had lots of kind support from other parents - many of whom knew what DS had been like previously as they had volunteered in school. DS was later diagnosed with Aspergers. We moved him from that school, as they and he weren't coping. The next school really went out of the way to cater for him.
This week I went into school to complain about a Y3 boy who was making DD unhappy. I was told "There are children in this school with complex problems." I nodded understandingly, and said "I know, and things need to be put in place to help such children, like they were when DS was at this school, so other children aren't affected." I have no idea if the child who was upsetting DD had any reason for his behaviour, but it got to the point where I needed to say to the school "It stops, and it stops now." (And I pointed out I was probably the last parent to complain about such behaviour) Funnily enough, it seems to have stopped, with immediate effect. I've no idea what the school have put in place, if anything, all I know is DD hasn't been hit/kicked etc by this child since.
I now think there is too much info in the OP. there is enough that a parent with a child in the same class could recognise the situation and now know details such as foster care and abuse.
It should be deleted.
Have only read OP.
I would think "Thank Heavens that's not my child and I hope he gets the support he needs soon."
This kid has been abused and removed from his family and people just want to exclude him, I don't understand that.
And why is the teacher leaving the class to get him, where is the TA? DS1 prob 'caused' all those incidents too over the last two years, it really dismays me to think most people would just have exclided him.
Has anyone said he should be excluded?
Thank you all for your views - I promise I haven't shared too much, whilst making the kind of problems clear, I have changed a lot of details, as you'd expect
From my POV, I know the boy needs help and he's getting a lot, with all sorts of agencies involved, but it's not a straight forward as getting him help, the experts do their best, but who knows really what he needs? I don't like the impact it has on my DS's schooling, but I also know my DS has innumerable advantages compared to this child. The other parents are spitting mad and I wanted to see if that would be a common view.
I don't think your employer would be very impressed with this post even if you have changed some of the details you are still posting about a child who needs a lot of support due to abuse and with a quick search you could be quite identifiable and with the information from your other thread it wouldn't be that hard to work out the identity of the child either
I wouldn't be mad. But I would be concerned.
Obviously I strive to teach my children that no one deserves to have no friends, or for other children to be nasty and cruel and believe me they would both be in serious trouble if they were amongst those who tormented or bullied or excluded a child such as the boy you are talking about. And I will also be teaching them how lucky they are that their life has been happy and nothing bad has happened to make them angry upset and in need help.
But they do have a right to go to school and not have their work ripped up or be hurt . I would not expect a school to allow my child to do that to anyone.
And that boy also has a right to have an education and friends and be happy. But it sounds like alot of help and support is needed and I do hope he gets it soon as it sounds like he is in alot of pain emotionally. It's always awful to
Hear about a child who has had such a shit time and yes I would worry about the impact on my child's education but I wouldn't wish anythin but help support and understanding for the boy and that a solution can be found so everyone can enjoy school and get the most out of it.
No, RunnersWorld, you are wrong. You have more than over-stepped the line. Anything that was not in public knowledge was confidential and you have broken that confidentiality, no matter how clever you might think you've been.
I am a Governor at a Special School and whilst we are told, as a Governing Body, of the general issues the school is facing, no details are shared about specifics, to the extent that you couldn't even identify if the child in question is male or female - which is pretty good going considering 75% of the school cohort is male.
By adding that you know about the details due to your job, and that you have a DS in the same class as said child, you have narrowed the field considerably.
I am still shocked and very uncomfortable knowing that there are people who work with my DD who could be sharing her life on a forum.
If you really wanted to know the POV of a parent who knows nothing of his background, you didn't need to share any of his background. But you chose to add the juicy details.
I have to agree with others with regards to your overstepping the mark by posting the information above.
It is bloody hard.
There's no easy answer.
The two kids in ds1's class were from really sad backgrounds
One of the parents of one of them attacked a teacher too a d had an injunction so she didn't come to school premises. The child attacked children in the school
There was also chilling elements of DV.. One of the kids would get v friendly with girls and isolate them mentalky from their freinds and then physically separate them from the other kids and punch them.
THe school really struggled with this child.
The class has now got 22 kids in it and the other class has 31.
I feel sorry for the kids, they have such chaotic lives, sorry for the school who have to manage this stuff and sorry for the other kids too.
My ds1 was in a melt down at home one evening and I was chilled when he told me that the way boys friendships work is that you grt strong kids around you so they can hit the other kids for you when you want it.
He said boys hurt each other when they are friends and being a friend means that you are scared of the others.
He also asked to do karate so when they came for him he could defend himself.
He was 7
I'm an advisory teacher for children in care; if I were working with this child, I would be very concerned indeed.
I would be concerned that the school are unable to keep him and other children safe; I would be concerned that his inadequately managed behaviour was alienating him further from his peers and impacting on his own and others' education, as well as the safety of staff and students. I would be recommending that all staff be trained in behaviour management and positive handling techniques. I would be working with his social worker to ensure he is getting appropriate therapeutic support.
I would be doing everything possible to work with the school to avoid a permanent exclusion, which could compound the child's feelings of rejection and likely exacerbate the behaviour; however, I would also be investigating alternative provision as one possible option, as the situation is serious enough to warrant parallel planning at this stage.
It is worth mentioning though, that there are many children who behave in this way who, with the right support, begin to behave appropriately and go on to thrive as popular members of the school. Please don't think that this child will be this way forever- change is possible. Unfortunately, the school have a difficult decision ahead as to whether they can provide the support he needs to facilitate that change, and at what cost to others. From the limited information you've posted, it sounds as if they could do more.
The details you have given certainly are very specific, so they appear to be inappropriate- if they do bear any resemblance to the child in question, I would certainly think about asking for the thread to be deleted.
OK, my DD is in year 1 and she has a child such as this in her class. Most of what you have written could be applied to this child (obviously I have no idea about the DC's background) bar the inappropriate touching, although the child can be a bit too huggy when not wanted/invited which is probably not the same thing. The child who has problems is supported on four out of five days by a dedicated one to one TA who is, seemingly, fabulous at her job. But on the day the TA isn't there, this child does disrupt the class and the very experienced teacher (getting on for twenty years experience) has to spend a lot of time out of the classroom dealing with difficult behaviour (there is another TA so the class is not unsupervised). I feel extremely sorry for this child and this child's parents. The child is a nice kid except when in full on meltdown, the parents are nice people, it is nobody's fault that the child has such awful problems with fitting into the school environment. If it was the parents' 'fault' (how would we even know?) I'm not sure what difference it would make as I don't know what anyone could possibly do to change them. That may be badly worded. I hope you know what I mean.
While I would prefer that my very peaceful, gentle, hard-working child did not have to deal with the difficult behaviour (and she has suffered physically with cut lips and bruises on a few occasions), the important point for me is that she is a) not frightened by the behaviour and b) is progressing well at school. As both these things are true, I would not dream of complaining. I strongly believe that the school is balancing the needs of the child with problems and my child (also the other children in the class) in the best way they can. I guess complaints come in when your child is being disadvantaged by the behaviour they are witnessing or if you feel the school is not doing the best they can.
In my case, I have done precisely nothing. My child is happy at school, progressing well, counts the child with challenging behaviours amongst her friends and I am happy that she is sufficiently mature to be able to tell me that she knows it's not the child's fault, that the child cannot help getting angry and that she has compassion for that child as she has told me more than once that she feels sorry for someone who cannot help themselves doing things they don't want to do. She knows that the child is finding things harder than she is and she is good about recognising the child's limitations and the fact that she cannot change the child's behaviour and just needs to accept that some people find things harder than others. To be honest, she is far more forgiving and compassionate than I am! I think this child has taught her things that may stand her in good stead as an adult.
Yes, I'd prefer the child not to be in the class. I'd prefer that the teacher didn't have to leave the class to contain the child's behaviour. I'd prefer the child to be less uncontrollable. Etc etc. But as I consider that all the professionals are doing their very best and that my child's education is not being seriously affected, I think things are OK and I would not complain unless the situation changed significantly.
I agree with tether. I won't be nasty by adding the extra information from your posting history here to prove my point purely because it would be unfair to the child you are posting about but I do think you should ask for this to be deleted
and your other thread
I would be horrified if a professional were posting this about my DC even with some details changed.
Of course many of the other parents will be distressed and most or all would prefer the child to be elsewhere but the key thing is for the professionals to provide the appropriate support for the child and to reduce the impact on the rest of the class. The children are what matters.
I too think the post should be withdrawn if you do have a child in the same class as a child that you have professional dealings with.
I could not tolerate it because a strong 7/8yo throwing a chair could do an extremely serious injury to another child. If he actually clocked one of them over the head in a weak spot, he could actually kill someone.
The child needs a strong and physically quick and capable 121 with him 100% of the time he is in school. Otherwise he is simply too dangerous to be there.
I assumed you changed some details. I still think you are in the wrong wrong. People will assume you have done that and guess up or down a year group and switch genders in their mind and very possibly recognise their own situation.
There is not an issue with confidentiality, it could be happening in any school. If all the support is in place the child's behaviour will hopefully improve. Seems staff are doing all they can, but should there be a 1 to 1 TA who can remove child when a meltdown is starting.
I believe to is plain if I read the op and wondered if she was talking about my child or a child in my care etc a quick search could give me the answer.
Well RunnersWorld, after the last fortnight with my child's school I am wondering if you are TA in my child's class.
I am basing that, as GingerbreadGretel says, on the assumption that age and/or gender may not be accurate etc etc - and on rereading your post, I am pretty sure you are not, mainly because there is always, always someone to collect my child at need and also because of the lunchtime situation you describe.
There are other details which differ of course. But there are some notable similarities too.
But basically, I will be looking at the TA concerned after half term and 'wondering'.
Not terribly helpful.
I wonder. Does anyone think that, just possibly, the op could be talking about her own child?
As I can't believe a person with a job involving access to such sensitive cp issues would be so careless with information?
Just a thought.
I think the best thing the other parents can do is befriend and support the boy's mum. It is hard enough to make progress in these situations without the mum having to dread being in the playground.
And minimising the mum's isolation won't stop the boy being moved to a different school if there is a good argument for that.
I have done this and it did make some difference.
VonHerBurton, I think that's irrelevant, tbh. What this thread has done is put that seed of doubt in the minds of many parents who have children with SN. The doubt that in actual fact, their child's distress is the subject of juicy gossip.
Even if the OP is a fosterer, she is not allowed to share details of his childhood circumstances.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
Would like to add that the mum, once befriended, strongly preferred it to be known that child x had been hurt as a toddler. Once this was in the public domain she knew parents would think in a more measured way. She felt secrecy just fanned the flames and I agree.
Don't know much this applies to foster mums. No experience.
Dd had similar at her school and would get very distressed by it, from reception up to Yr 1 there were daily incidents with two pupils, one of whom had 1-1. After two separate cases of violence to her, one of which was taken very seriously in school, we took the decision to move her.
I have no idea what problems the children may have had, but I do know that it is still going on. The classroom is frequently evacuated and one of them often restrained by a teacher who comes from another class. Two others have left since us.
I am desperately sorry for these kids and the teachers dealing with it, they obviously need more support, but DD's education and emotional wellbeing was our first concern.
Our Dd is a different child, she no longer 'worries', she is confident, enthusiastic and enjoys going to school now. I am all for inclusion, but not at he expense of the majority, I am sure the other parents in this instance are (rightly or wrongly) as pissed off as we were.
I'm not too concerned about gossip around DS1, I don't hear it so it doesn't bother me. Lots of the other parents at school know us and know how difficult it's been and what we've done to get support and things really are better after 2.5 years. Agree with the comments not to write him/ her off.
Meltdowns rarely come from nowhere, a simple ABC chart would help establish triggers and lead to some analysis and action plan. There really are so many things that could be done, everyone just has to want to put the effort in.
DS1 could easily have been excluded at 4, 5, 6, I am so very, very glad he wasn't.
100% agree with 'meltdowns rarely come from nowhere'
The school need to get better at being proactive with this poor kids's support.
No-one just kicks off without any warning. They need to start recognizing the warnings. I would say 'pacing about' is a MASSIVE warning. The kid might as well be wearing a sign saying 'I am about to kick off, I am getting very angry, help me'
Unless parents are in the classroom it is impossible to tell what is going on and how much impact it is having. An incident may last seconds. Several other pupils may be doing things throughout the day. All the focus goes on the 'problem' child and it gets out of hand.
We owe these children an education and care. They are not monsters, they are children.
Mainstream school may simply not be the best place for the child. He clearly has needs that can't be met. My OH has worked at a specialist primary for children with behavioural problems where they can offer a lot of help and support. Usually though children go there after all other options exhausted and sadly that can mean more than one exclusion when really they should have gone there first.
I would be worried and concerned that my DD would be missing out on learning if resources were having to be diverted to manage the other child at the expense of those children without such problems.
I wouldn't want DD to be around children who threatened (or used) violence and I wouldn't want her schooling disrupted. Thus, if the child's behaviour had a detrimental impact on her learning I would complain to the school.
My ex-husband's son is autistic and at primary school. He now has full time 1-2-1 but he caused significant disruption over the years and I don't think that mainstream was appropriate for him. If child is on ASD spectrum then they aren't going to 'learn' appropriate behaviour by being in a mainstream sitting since autistic children do not absorb social norms and behaviour by copying others.
Inclusion IMO is not always appropriate in all circumstances and in this example, it sounds like the school is going no-one any favours at all.
Whilst it is clear that the staff need more training, support, advice etc., sometimes they are more likely to get it if parents do complain about the child.
Sometimes it is helpful if the problems are highlighted. The difficulties are then taken more seriously and instead of just coping with the situations as and when they arise, a proper action plan is put into place with frequent re-assessments. Raising concerns is sometimes helpful.
As a teacher it is sad but true that we tend to get ignored unless parents start complaining. I would encourage this. Maybe go from the angle f your child's safety and also academic progression. In our area it's often the only way this poor child will get the help he needs.
Apart from the touching of girls (he won't go near girls) that's my Y4 DS you could be describing. He has ASD and ADHD.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
The child is not 'diverting resources' and if I may say so, I fucking hate that phrase.
You will find that children with additional needs attract additional resources. The money tends not to be ringfenced so less responsible schools can use the money for other things.
This boy is getting 1:1.
Thus leaving the TA in the class to concentrate on the other children.
I have worked in classrooms and now I visit them when doing transition work with children.
If a class is being disrupted unduly and 'resources diverted' the school is not doing their job properly.
I visited nursery where they had staff shadowing a child's every move and swapping shifts every hour because 'it was too exhausting for one person' ffs.
They were giving this child loads of negative attention and pathologising a frickin 4 year old's behaviour.
Parents should always feel able to complain. They can slant it from "I am concerned whether there is enough support" it does not need to be a witch hunt about a small child.
Freckled none of what you have written about ASD is true. Honestly, stop repeating it, it doesn't do you any favours.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
Well, I lived with my ASD step-child for three years before the marriage fell apart and spent endless hours researching and trying to get help - statementing, ABA, social stories etc. of course not all ASD children are the same but it's pretty well accepted that children on the spectrum do not tend to learn in the same way as NT children do, hence the need (often) for intensive support. My step-son certainly did not learn from other children in any way and was not affected by any social norms or rules. He did not care about following rules or conventions in the same way as NT children did and was disruptive day in, day out, although now with a full time 1-2-1 he is less so.
But, it took 4 years to get that support in place - hence 4 years where the resources were diverted to manage him. Now he has a statement and support is in place. Prior to that it was a nightmare for all concerned.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
No - I'm talking about my experience with my step-son, knowing other ASD parents and children and the reading and research I did.
But I did think that it was fairly widely accepted that inability or difficulty in picking up social norms and cues was a significant part of the spectrum. And that learning by osmosis in terms of social situations is not the norm if on the spectrum - hence need for support, social stories, ABA etc
This child is being comprehensively failed. As is the rest of the class.
The best way to get him appropriate support, is to make it easier for school to meet his needs and harder for school to continue with the approaches which seem not to be working. Complaints from other parents can be useful in this. The difficulty with having the local authority as your 'corporate parent' is that if the same council refuses to meet a child's educational needs, the SW is unable to fight this.
As posters above say, meltdowns don't usually come from no-where, and a good ABC analysis goes a long way.
And OP, I've reported your post as it's way too detailed for any open forum. The general points raised are very valid, but even with some disguising I think things are far too guessable.
You might want to report it yourself, with an alternative form of wording if you can think of something suitably vague and brief.
You know what they say 'if you have met one child with ASD, you have met one child with ASD'
ABA is not appropriate for many children with ASD and is certainly not accepted as a treatment for all children on the spectrum.
For some kids it would be useless. Some it would be unnecessary and for some harmful.
Children with ASD can learn from modelling..that is what intensive interaction is about! The spectrum is so large it is ridiculous to make statements about 'Children with ASD do not.....'
AND how were resources DIVERTED to help him? The resources are there to help him. But you carry on losing that insulting phrase. Parents of kids with SN love to hear stuff like that about their kids.
You will find that children with additional needs attract additional resources.
I thought the consensus within SEN community is that it's always under-funded?
Our school has almost banned new IEPs, I think for funding reasons.
I can understand why some parents are spitting mad, from OP's description. It isn't an easy environment to learn in, is it?
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
I would be very unhappy if my DC were being taught in that environment.
I'd also have sympathy for the boy but I would question whether sharing a classroom with my DC was the right environment for either of them.
I don't know about the rest.of you but I will never be able to guess the boys identity from her description so she is motoring indiscretion at all. Anymore than a doctor is when he publishes a case study giving some medical details of a patient.
jrrtolkein- I agree.
Re-reading the OP, I just don't think the children are safe with him in the class. If they have to be evacuated and if an adult TA refuses to work with him and if it took two adult staff to calm him, and he throws chairs... that does not sound safe.
But punishment is not the answer: the poor child sounds so angry and damaged. However, as much as inclusive education is important, the safety of other children is more important.
"The difficulty with having the local authority as your 'corporate parent' is that if the same council refuses to meet a child's educational needs, the SW is unable to fight this"
This is not- or should not be- the case! Part of my role is to ensure that looked after children with additional needs get the educational support they need- this can (and has) involve fighting the borough's SEN department, and even applying to SS on occasion to fund additional in-school support. This is one of the reasons we as a team of teachers are separate from social work teams.
As the corporate parent, we must act in the best interests of the child, not our employers. If that means challenging our employers, so be it.
I would remove my child from the school.
"However, as much as inclusive education is important, the safety of other children is more important"
I don't think it's either/or, TBH.
If the school cannot keep the other children safe, then they are failing him too.
I think you are unbeliveably unprofessional in revealing a history of sexual abuse and the current foster care situation of a CHILD accompanied by such detail.
What on earth were you hoping to achieve?
I have reported your post. I hope MNHQ act quickly to remove it.
I don't think there is identifying information in the post.
And I think it's reasonable to mention that the child has had an abusive home environment and is now safe. The behaviour he exhibits towards other children is a result of this.
It's also worth mentioning that each child's needs should be assessed individually, and- crucially- by professionals qualified to do so.
Attachment behaviour can present with identical symptoms as ASD (and vice versa). it is essential that children with traumatic experiences are not 'diagnosed' by anyone not qualified to do so. ABA is a good example of a methodology which can work wonders for one child and significantly damage another. I would be extremely cautious about using ABA with a child who has experienced neglect, trauma or abuse.
I agree Narked. there is no name, no location, no school is named, the age of the boy isn't given (just a guess would say he's 7 or 8) and the OP has said she has changed some details.
tethersend, whilst I see what you're trying to say, it can't be entirely the school's fault. They are not raising him, they only have him for six hours a day. There is only so much a school can do. I think by evacuating the classroom they are working to keep the children safe. They obviously cannot control the boy, but is that their failing? Maybe some children cannot be controlled by the limited systems teachers have at their disposal.
Things like this make you realise that the budget for SS needs doubling. The poor child needs intensive professional support for an extended period of time including trained one to one in school. Without that his issues aren't going to go away. They'll just get worse as he gets bigger and harder to control.
"I think by evacuating the classroom they are working to keep the children safe."
YouOldSlag, evacuating a classroom is not an effective way to keep the boy or his classmates safe, and disrupts the education of other children hugely. Escorting him away would be more appropriate.
Saying the school could do more is not the same as saying his behaviour is their fault. With the right training, staff can manage his behaviour safely whilst minimising the disruption of others' learning.
I think SS because these are issues that are likely to be tied in with the abuse, the child's previous home life, current living situation etc. the child may change schools, move to different foster carers etc. SS are the ones with the the most information and are in the best position to get him emotional and psychological support.
I dont know, like I said, most of this could be about DS1, would have been a travesty to move him and there was nothing else locally that would have worked anyway, we looked, and visited, and fretted at length.
Ironically, support was provided at lunchtime for another child to protect him from DS1, had that have been spent on structured play with DS1 those incidents wouldn't have occurred. So I applied for that.
Much more support needs to be put into playtime and classroom support at this level, whatever the issues, because there are always some. Everyone can put pressure on schools to do that. In fact parents are starting to cimplain about bullying and interaction issues (not to do with DS1) because I've said this is what's needed. If they are putting up with it on their kids' behalf there's no hope for the kids with additional issues.
And money is tight, so it's all the more important it's spent where's needed, no-one can learn in a stressful environment, demand and expect action to be taken for all, because it will benefit your kids to have more adults around.
Schools get a pot of allocated money according to how many children they have registered with SEN/SN.
If there are no children with SEN/SN there is no money. This is why children with SEN/SN attract money.
The money in the SEN/SN pot is NOT always used in the way it should be.
Looked After Children also receive pupil premium, but this is nowhere near enough to pay for specialist support.
Schools do not get a pot load of money according to how many children they have registered with SEN/SN I wish they did.
I think mrsDV is referring to the attached funding for the support hours outlined in a child's statement.
The attached funding doesn't even cover the wages for a TAs hours ...it's a joke!
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
I would expect him to have 121 TA support during school lessons if his behavior problems were extreme. This would be for his benefit and the other kids.
No. Higher end statements come with additional funding.
Schools are allocated money according to the amount of children with additonal needs.
Have you never wondered why schools are reluctant to apply for statements for children who they know will only get a lower banded statement? They don't want to have to fund additional help out of the general SEN/SN budget.
I didn't say it was a lot of money or even enough. But I am sick of people using the phrase 'divert resources'. Its bollocks.
Its like saying children on free school meals 'divert food' from those who pay for school meals.
Yes higher end statements come with funding which cover roughly half the real cost of supporting a child with SEN.
But the child with SEN will be allocated support if they have a higher end statement.
That means the class TA will not be 'diverted' to help the child with SEN.
The class TA will continue to support the non statemented children.
Thus the resources are NOT diverted.
Is that right mrsz? Are the 25 fully funded hours the LA pays the school for support for DS1 only half the cost of employing a TA for those hours?
True ime, MrsDeVere, there is a class TA, DS1's TA and the CT.
Well to start with I don't have a class TA (to be diverted) and the child in my class who requires 100% 1-1 support including at lunch times has been allocated 1-1 for 100% because that is what she needs. Sheis developmentally around 22months and severly brain damaged
Is this an actual situation? If so is it wise to discuss such a problem with those details on an open forum.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
non verbal, incontinent, unable to move without help, unable to eat without help, limited vision, unable to sit unaided ...yes the 1-1 support can go off and help other non statemented children
if I read the op and wondered if she was talking about my child or a child in my care, a quick search could give me the answer
. Seriously? How?
Approx 99% of posts on this forum relate to someone either related to or known to the op in question in some way. Does this "quick search" stretch to indentifying the subject of any post chosen at random? Wow!
This one could well apply to a child at one of the schools my kids attend, but I have no way of knowing. The scenario is not all that uncommon, sadly.
Whether the child is identifiable or not, I don't think it is right to talk about a child that you know in a professional capacity. It would break my heart to see a post talking about a child like ds with frowny faces and all, and be thinking that they could be talking about my child.
I didn't like the faces and don't really understand the angle, I get the vibe of 'get him out' instead of 'everyone lobby for more support' but hope that isn't true.
most of the faces were sad which I took to be sympathy for a difficult situation all around
And it seems like the consensus is the child needs more support and the school need more strategies, not sure if that was what the OP wanted to hear to what really.
Apart from the spitting mad parents, which the OP wanted to know is how we'd all be. I'm not, apart from angry on behalf of a a small child who has been abused. I'd channel the energy into action and more support. Anyone can help in schools, it would make a big difference if some did.
I'd feel sorry for the boy, but also want to ensure duty of care was appropriate to all the children.
I'd also make damn sure you were sacked from your job for cause as you clearly are unable not to keep private information pertaining to children confidential.
I am not sure what your point is Mrz
The TA for the child with disabilities would not be there if s/he was not funded and allocated for the the child.
How does that impact on the resources available for the rest of your class?
The TA with the child is not fully funded MrsDeVere ...the pot load of money you so glibly mentioned tops up the huge shortfall in the cost of providing such support because the funding that accompanies a "higherend" statement is a fraction of the actual cost to support a child.
Statements of 25 hours+ are fully funded here, the other pot of AEN/SEN money is not ringfenced and goes on class TAs or other activities rather than targetted support for children with AEN/SEN.
Actually more than 15 hoirs is full funded, but it's all changing and being done on averages for the area now which is a bit harsh. There are four kids with statements in DS1's year, and at least a few more who could do with them, there are none in the year above.
It is for schools to decide how to use their funding but they need to fund up to the first 15 hours of Teaching Assistant (TA) support for children with Statements of SEN. The local authority then funds any necessary additional hours and once allocations of support in a Statement exceed 25 hours the local authority fully funds the Statement. The DfE want a more effective, sustainable system for funding pupils and students who require high levels of specialist educational support and so have developed a new system whereby the schools must fund support for all Statements, even those over 25 hours of TA support.
As you probably know SEN funding changes from April 2013
Mrz - not all LAs fund statements the same way. Some use high/low incidence statements, some use banding and LAs delegate different levels of funding to schools. Some will delegate this first 5 hours, others 15.
As you say, this is subject to change in April but, here again, different LAs are dealing with this in different ways.
I didn't glibly mention anything mrz
I was pointing out that schools have money for SEN that would NOT exist if they did not have children with SEN.
Therefore children with SEN do NOT divert funds from children without SEN.
It may be the way you are writing but you really come across as resenting that child in your class and like the OP you have given a fair bit of information about them.
Enough for a parent to at least suspect you are talking about their child.
I hope you are not as resentful as you seem in your posts.
And DS1 did not get 15 hours even though it was needed. I saw thew budget, it was substantial, like I said it went on class TAs, not necessarily SEN support, although class TAs do provide that too in some places. It was always an absolute travesty that the money was not ringfenced.
inappropriatelyemployed they will from April
^All mainstream schools, whether maintained, academies or free schools will
receive a notional SEN budget as part of their formula allocation as well as an age weighted pupil unit. They will be expected to use this funding to provide up to £10,000 of support for any pupil with SEN. For pupils with higher level needs who require over the £10,000 of educational provision, the Local Authority can agree to provide top up funding to the school which will be based on the assessed need of that individual pupil.^
A quick glance at outcomes for kids with SENs will show you the future is not bright for these kids, moving them on and out of their communities does not help, although there is a need for specialist education options too. It really frustrates me that people think they should just be moved though, where to? What about our lives in the community?
No MrsDeVere as a mother of a child with SEN I do not resent any child but I do resent your assumption that there is pots of money to throw around.
Mrsz, that's recognition that there will be children with SEN in schools and communities, quite right too.
I think, to be fair, as a parent of a child with SEN, I think the system creates resentment and frustration as it perpetuates tension between child and school and starves schools of resources, training and access to specialist services. Those specialist services are often nothing of the sort anyway and sometimes (not always) just pump out generic provision without ever meeting the child.
This means that it is too easy to see the battle as one between one child's needs and the needs of the other children - the greater good.
FFS I did NOT say 'there are pots of money to throw about'. Stop projecting. Its annoying.
No-one said there were pots, just that there was money for AEN/SEN.
I think only a fool would imagine that there wouldn't be children with SEN in schools
Yes Mrz but different LAs have different ways if interpreting this. I know - I am stuck between two of them!
Not pots of.
But you know that. You are just annoyed for whatever reason.
Lets not pass on the hatez hey?
*It may be the way you are writing but you really come across as resenting that child in your class and like the OP you have given a fair bit of information about them.
Enough for a parent to at least suspect you are talking about their child*
I felt the same way as Mrs DeVere.
It's tricky, I wouldn't pay for a lot of the services we've been involved with. Education direct payments are the answer for me.
I am also horrified that the OP has shared so much information. I am in a job where i come into contact with children and i would never share information like this!!
hazeyjane the parent was talking about the OP which is not me so please get your facts right
That was unecessarily harsh and uncalled for mrz. These kids are part of the community, it is right that thay are in our schools. I'm not sure what we're arguing about.
No Mrz YOU have given a detailed run down of the disabilities of the child in YOUR class.
If I had a child with complex needs in a MS school I would be wondering i you were talking about them.
By "these kids" do you mean my son HotheadPaisan?
I have to agree on the sharing of the information, whether or not the child can be identified. This is not the place and I don't know what the purpose was. It's like the lead in topic on a Radio 5 phone in with Nicky Campbell - you know they 'immigrants, do we like them or are they stealing our jobs' or 'does a paedophile live next door to you' etc etc
No MrsDeVere I have not given a detailed run down of the disabilities of the child in MY class.
The sharing of info in relation to the OP I mean
'non verbal, incontinent, unable to move without help, unable to eat without help, limited vision, unable to sit unaided'
is that not the child you referred to in your earlier post then?
No that is not the child in my class MrsDeVere
non verbal, incontinent, unable to move without help, unable to eat without help, limited vision, unable to sit unaided ...yes the 1-1 support can go off and help other non statemented children
Sorry mrz, we must be talking at crossed purposes, I thought that Mrs DeVere was talking about this post. Personally I don't think you should be talking about a pupil in your class in such a detailed fashion, and I obviously got the wrong end of the stick, but it did come across as resentful.
Sorry, I assumed you were talking about this child
the child in my class who requires 100% 1-1 support including at lunch times has been allocated 1-1 for 100% because that is what she needs. Sheis developmentally around 22months and severly brain damaged
hazeyjane it isn't details about a child in my class ...
*Add message | Report | Message poster Floggingmolly Sun 10-Feb-13 18:42:47
if I read the op and wondered if she was talking about my child or a child in my care, a quick search could give me the answer*
A quick search of op's other threads put togeather with this one would make it very easy for someone to recognise the child and the op, she explains how far away from the school she lives, talks about her DC and gives more information about the child in this op.
All recognisable and easy to put togeather if you think or realise she could well be a TA at the school your DC attends.
I've recognised a mum from our school through one of her threads and thinking "that happened in our class" quick search through her other posts and threads and I recognised her - pm'd to let her know and both name changed.
fortunately she was posting about spoilt children atvparties, not disclosing confidential background information on a child from the school.
ok, sorry, it was just that you said my class. I guess this is the problem with talking about specific children, but obviously you are talking about a hypothetical child in a hypothetical class.
I do have a child in my class who requires full time support but the other information does not relate to one single specific child and were examples of the type of SEN/SN found in many schools who require full time support which could not be diverted to support other children in class.
Have reported. Think this thread should be deleted.
Oblomov, I asked for that yesterday, but MNHQ said no
The truth is, there will never be enough money, but our children deserve to be educated just as any other.
Education does not mean:
-sat in a corridor while the class continues with work
-being excluded from Qualified Teacher time because a TA is allocated.
This thread could have been so different.
I am so glad my DD is in a special school, where children like her are cherished, valued and stretched to their highest potential. In a MS school they would spend all their time trying to 'contain' her. In her special school she learns and expectations of her are high.
She's in Year 2 and can read 21 words. She is trying with phonics, but so far that's being restricted because she uses whole word recognition, but they are working on it.
She can't write because her fine motor skills are poor, but they are working on it and she is starting to use an ipad to show her literacy skills.
She can't eat her lunch fast, but they're working on it, and they send her to the dinner hall early so that she can finish her dinner with her friends without rushing and still get a play time.
She can't dress well, but they're working on it, and she gets support to do her best.
In her school she is normal and valued and celebrated. She isn't the 'problem child' that she would be in MS.
Funding is always going to be an issue. The parents don't need to be concerned with that though - the law says a child's educational needs must be met. If the school needs more funds to do that, they must speak with the LA. Even if the answer is 'tough luck'.
A friend is going through a similar (not quite the same details) situation at her school. While she, along with many of the other parents, has every sympathy for the child in question they aslo would like their children to be able to feel safe in school. They would like their children to be able to go to school without being spat at, hit, kicked, pushed, screamed at, touched very inappropriately etc.....As indeed all children should be able to.
They have talked to the school whose reply is that there is no more funding to provide any more support for the child in question and, clearly, the child in question has a right to be educated too.
My friend and several others have made the choice to remove their children so they too can access their right to be educated in safety.
If a child has such complex needs that they are compromising the safety/ well being/education of themselves and/or the others in the class then maybe a mainstream school is not the best option for anyone?
This is more a question of the way the school chooses to apply its resources and how combatant it is about obtaining the right help.
If your friend's children is at a school which doesn't access the resources and apply the expertise to support this child and allow inclusion, then they had best move their children.
Yes, in some cases mainstream is not appropriate but this should be based solely on an assessment of the child's needs and not the school's willingness/capability to help.
My son has been to different schools and the reality is some prize inclusion as a positive feature, others barely pay it lip service and would rather spend SEN money on a pond for their prospectus (not a joke- it happened).
Until SEN funding is increased to appropriate levels, until it is ring fenced and until staff have proper training and support, these problems will continue.
That is a political problem unlikely to win votes amongst a demographic obsessed by spelling tests and KS levels.
Most teachers don't have training in handling special needs kids; that's what special needs teachers are for. I think we expect too much of mainstream schools and the teachers.
Everyone will feel for this child; more help, expert help is clearly needed. At the moment nobody is getting what they need and if my child was in this class I'd be very worried about educational disruption as well as safety.
This is a national forum; I really don't think the child could be identified by info given.
"Most teachers don't have training in handling special needs kids; that's what special needs teachers are for. I think we expect too much of mainstream schools and the teachers."
Yet, the SEN Code of Practice clearly states:
"1:35 There is a clear expectation within the Education Act 1996 that pupils with statements of special educational needs will be included in mainstream schools. A parents wish to have their child with a statement educated in the mainstream should only be refused in the small minority of cases where the childs inclusion would be incompatible with the efficient education of other children."
"Unless a parent indicates that they do not want their child educated in a
mainstream school (whether by expressing a preference or making a
representation for a particular school or otherwise) an LEA must ensure that a
child is educated in a mainstream school unless that is incompatible with the
efficient education of other children. See Section 316, Education Act 1996"
So that Act, which has been in force for 17 years gives the right for parents to have a Mainstream setting for their child, unless it is incompatible with the efficient education of other children.
Note, it says the small minority of cases. Of course, that is the small minority of cases within the 2% of children with a Statement - so tiny.
Don't get me wrong, I am a big advocate of Special Schools - my DD1 goes to one, and I am Governor there. But, these children and their parents have a right to go to MS school and the schools, ultimately the LA, have a duty to ensure that the quality of education is suitable for them and their peers, equally.
All the legislation in the world won't change the fact that some teachers and support staff still do not get proper training and support. They should, of course, but in reality this is not always the case.
Schools that value inclusion will be those that have proper procedures in place and follow them. The staff will be confident and well trained. The management team will be supportive and pro-active. The children will continue to be educated in a safe environment whilst the disruption is dealt with in a calm and professional manner.
If that is not happening in your school, they are failing all the children and the staff who work with them. It should probably be brought to the attention of governors.
"All the legislation in the world won't change the fact that some teachers and support staff still do not get proper training and support. They should, of course, but in reality this is not always the case."
No, but what has to happen, is schools and more importantly Local Authorities to understand that parents aren't asking a favour, parents don't want their children to be accommodated or tolerated, they want them to be educated as equal and valued peers.
The law says that this must happen. It isn't a case of 'in reality'. If it is, change the reality
It's like saying thought hat we expect too much of society to ensure people with disabilities can participate. A lot of it isn't rocket science. But other parents have to help too. Don't snipe and fret when the reality is your kid is likely to be streets ahead of most children with disabilities and their outcomes are hugely better statistically.
inappropriatelyemployed, I think the changes in funding are an attempt to make schools more directly accountable to parents in terms of tangible support but I can't see it happening. It will just pit parents against schools. Is it ringfenced btw do you know?
Changing the reality is down to the individual head teachers. And if parents are not happy with how situations are dealt with in school, they need to bring it up with governors. That's the only way to force change.
As it stands, the law says it must happen - or what? How is it measured, how is it enforced, how is it policed? Schools are geared up for Ofsted inspections but they don't reflect day to day life in the school.
It's easy to say 'change the reality' but how do you suggest that is done?
Fwiw I agree with you, lougle but that doesn't mean that change will happen.
We had a similar situation at my dcs school. The child in question had very complex needs and was violent at times to children and staff, would spit, swear, throw things around the class, up end tables and chairs etc.At least once a week the class was evacuated for safety reasons. His parents were very open and honest about his problems and both them and the school were doing their best to get him accessed and the appropriate provison put in place for him. His parents wanted him to go to a special school but the red tape they had to jump through to get him accepted was unbelievable. In the meantime, they had no choice but to leave him in a mainstream school until things had been sorted. It took 2 years. I have seen his mum since and he is now doing very well as he has the support he needs. I feel very sorry for these kids as its all well and good having an inclusion policy but at what cost.
"It's easy to say 'change the reality' but how do you suggest that is done?"
For a start, by society not accepting that the law won't be followed in this situation, because it's 'just too hard' or 'just not possible'
"Don't snipe and fret when the reality is your kid is likely to be streets ahead of most children with disabilities and their outcomes are hugely better statistically."
Hmm, but frankly if that child is touching my child in places where she should not be being touched and is physically hurting her on a regular basis (which is what is happening in my friends school) then I think I would be allowed to "snipe" and "fret"...regardless of whether or not my child is streets ahead or not....
I don't think there is any breach of confidentiality.Every school in the country will have at least one kid like this and she's probably changed . or
Safety is becoming an issue in primary schools, more so than ever before. I have been assaulted by a child in the course of my work. That goes with my job and to some extent is to be expected, although not condoned. However, children have also been assaulted and that is not acceptable.
I would just hope that a professional involved in ds's care did not write posts on the internet, using his issues and our lives to discuss some sort of moral or political dilemma.
Of course hels, but I see discontent over things that really do not matter at 5.
NT children assault other children all the time, we should all be clamouring for more adult supervision and structured play.
NT children assault eachother all the time?!
Not my Y3 class! Thankfully....most of them have figured out about boundaries by then, they may be cheeky at time or a bit wild, but " assaulting eachother all the time"?! Where do you live?
nt children assult eachother all the time ?
Yes and many get expelled for much less than this child has done. I think that shows just how much that school is trying to help this poor boy and that they are trying their hardest to fulfil their duties as teachers and to inclusion laws.
They may be failing but they sound like they r trying.
Assaults on children and staff are unacceptable.
Evacuating whole classes is unacceptable.
But it is not a case of putting up with this or going to a special school; there are other solutions.
If I had my way, all teachers would receive mandatory physical handling and behaviour management training, and would be unable to teach without completing a course of proper, certificated training. Schools should be able to access adequate funding to support children with these kind of difficulties.
It is also worth bearing in mind that the child in question is in care, and different legislation applies to Looked After Children when it comes to exclusions etc. The child may or may not have SN in addition to any emotional and behavioural difficulties resulting from trauma, but it is not certain that he has any SN at all.
Nowhere special but I know the bullying that goes on, ironically others are only starting to speak up about it because of the action I am taking to stop S1 targetting or being targetted. They are not supervised enough at playtimes imo, there should be much more structured, supervised, co-operative play. I hate the 'leave them to it' nonsense, you wouldn't with kids this age at your house so why is it ok in schools?
Agree there are a number of things that could be done that aren't as extreme as ostracising an abused child who has already lost his family. When these children get excluded or encouraged to leave the local school you exclude their families too.
You wouldn't let an eight year old play independently?
Unsupervised, in a group?
Anyway, these are all younger and it's not going well and hasn't been for a while.
Out of hearing?
Ironically there is a thread on SN right now about these issues from a parent of a child with SNs.
Yes out of hearing ...say playing with a train set/scalextrix in own room
nt children assult eachother all the time
Not in year 3 surely? This is not my experience. By that age, children have learned appropriate behaviour.
Like I said, I was referencing a younger and specific group, I hope it changes by Y3. But I wouldn't leave S1 out of hearing, he is constantly supervised at home and has to be, especially around S2.
My point is that other kids are experiencing other issues and no-one is taking them up and I think someone should. I know one parent who will now because the things she was telling me her DS said were going on sounded like closer supervision was needed.
I see pushing, shoving, name-calling, teasing and picking on kids going on all the time, maybe it is just this age but I think it should be stopped. Which brings me back to why I have requested playtime support for S1, I don't want him targetting others, and he needs help with social skills, but there are other DC without SEND who need this guidance too. If he gets the support others will benefit too but parents with concerns should be requesting this too.
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