Expected progress from end of r to end of y2

(80 Posts)
Iamnotminterested Mon 28-Jan-13 10:10:17

Is it 2 full levels or have I dreamt that up?

Thanks.

simpson Mon 28-Jan-13 12:41:00

End of reception will finish on EYFS scores (usually a 6 or 7)...

YR1 is when they start NC levels and are expected to be a 2B by the end of yr2.

Iamnotminterested Mon 28-Jan-13 12:53:59

But what about the more able child who is working beyond the eyfs at the end of r and is given nc levels?

ReallyTired Mon 28-Jan-13 12:59:38

"eyfs at the end of r and is given nc levels? "

EYFS and national curriuclum levels don't really equate as asssement is so different. For example a child with very poor handwriting can still get a high score if they read well, and can show through play that they understand maths, literacy concepts etc. The way that children are assessed in key stage 1 is very different. Often tests are used, alongside classwork. There is virtually no play in year 2.

To do well in year 2 a child has to be able to read and write well. Ds got 2c in writing, and levels 3s in maths and reading at the end of year 2 and was 5c for pretty much everything at the start of year 6. He needed time to physically mature so he could control the pencil.

learnandsay Mon 28-Jan-13 13:06:27

How many children get NC levels in YR?

Iamnotminterested Mon 28-Jan-13 13:13:32

Dd2 did. Dd3 is now in r.

redskyatnight Mon 28-Jan-13 13:18:12

(I'm not a teacher but) I didn't think children were meant to be given NC levels at the end of Reception?

DD was given NC levels at the very start of Y1, so presumably they were also her "end of Reception" NC levels, but there was a very clear demarcation in EYFS pertaining to Reception and NC levels to KS1.

learnandsay Mon 28-Jan-13 13:20:22

I think that's great but a little unfair. I'm sure not all schools give them out so early because they don't have to for another year. And I'm guessing that every school has some child who can do something way beyond EYFS level. If all schools had to hand out levels according to what children could already do right, from YR that would be great. But I'm not sure how they'd mark the ones being taught physics and algebra by their parents. (Maybe they could have a separate mark.)

simpson Mon 28-Jan-13 13:26:32

Good question...

I have been given DD's NC levels (given last week) and I would also like to have an idea of where she will be in yr2....

Redsky - if a child has finished with EYFS (DD had finished a couple at the end of nursery) then I guess the next logical step would be to go into NC levels...

simpson Mon 28-Jan-13 13:26:58

Sorry, forgot to say DD is currently in reception....

redskyatnight Mon 28-Jan-13 13:32:39

EYFS and NC levels are totally different though. And for reporting purposes I would just expect an able child to be reported as "working beyond EYFS" - i.e. the level 9. Sounds like extra work for poor Reception teachers to have to grade against 2 sets of targets.

learnandsay Mon 28-Jan-13 13:35:57

The only problem with giving a vague phrase instead of a score is then no one can tell if they've progressed later on. They just fall off the end of the marking scheme.

ReallyTired Mon 28-Jan-13 13:41:52

Year one teachers often like to make their own assessment of children at the start of the year. This known as assessment for learning and is done so that teachers know the children's weak spots. Even a very bright child may have holes in their learning.

It is a total waste of time for reception teachers to assess children against two scales.

National curriculum teaching and assessment methods are not appriopiate for young children. Undoultably there are computer programes that predict children's a-level results on the basis of their EYFS.

There comes a point when actually teaching children should take priority over summative assessment.

simpson Mon 28-Jan-13 13:43:29

The other thing is that there is a cross over so it is perfectly possible for a child to be a 6 or 7 in something and a 1C in NC levels....

My DD's teacher did not assess her herself but the head of EYFS did (she was a yr2 teacher last year)...

I also think it depends how ahead they are, if my DC was a 1C in reception then that is not massively ahead iyswim...so IMO there would be no point assessing in NC levels (leave it till they start yr1)...

simpson Mon 28-Jan-13 13:45:47

DD is not assessed in EYFS and NC levels that she is ahead in, only NC iyswim...

But there are other areas she struggles with (PE and fine motor skills) that she is assessed in EYFS.

learnandsay Mon 28-Jan-13 13:55:21

simpson, though, your daughter's nursery was part of her school and she has the same teacher. The school also has been very supportive of your daughter so far. Other people's children might not have had that kind of continuous support. There are boys I know of who can multiply two digit numbers in Reception. Of course they might not be able to use a number square, number line, do chunking, (perhaps not division) and they may not know much about shapes, but their maths is still way above EYFS. If they'd had continuous support they probably would have had their knowledge holes filled in. The parents who taught them probably know a lot about maths but little or nothing about the curriculum. So they don't know what children are learning these days.

ReallyTired Mon 28-Jan-13 14:00:30

" There are boys I know of who can multiply two digit numbers in Reception. Of course they might not be able to use a number square, number line, do chunking, (perhaps not division) and they may not know much about shapes, but their maths is still way above EYFS."

The boys may have been hot housed by their families and have no actually understanding of what they are doing. hmm

MirandaWest Mon 28-Jan-13 14:05:01

DD was given NC levels in a couple of areas at the end of reception. I don't anticipate her end of year 2 levels being 2 levels above those.

So far in her school career she has always been supported at the level she's at.

learnandsay Mon 28-Jan-13 14:07:48

They might have been. I suppose that depends on what we mean by understanding. Both boys can count beyond a thousand, do all the easy times tables and some of the odd numbers beyond fives. They have no trouble with addition and subtraction and one is learning square roots, (the other isn't.) I wouldn't say either boy has no understanding. If you asked them to explain how multiplication works and why it works they might not be able to do it. But many adults can't explain it either.

Tgger Mon 28-Jan-13 14:21:26

I will play devil's advocate and say, does it matter? IMO there isn't much point in assessing a YR child on NC levels as it is inappropriate for their level of maturity. I was happy with DS's end of YR report "Working at above age expectations" or something (can't remember wording) in literacy and maths.

I enjoy being ignorant of these levels and using my instinct more. So, DS (Y1) can read fluently. His writing has improved a lot in Y1 as has his spelling and punctuation, but there is still quite a long way to go before he is writing (relatively) as fluently as he is reading, and I would expect him to be able to do this or be on the way to be doing this by Y3 I think. His comprehension is good in terms of understanding, but he hasn't started written comprehension, or at least not in a way I would expect of a 7/8 year old.

simpson Mon 28-Jan-13 16:04:25

DD's spelling, writing and reading is very good (these are the areas that she is assessed in NC levels)...but her numeracy is very average and she finds it a lot harder.

Yes, I could do loads at home with her numeracy wise but a) I don't want to b) she won't want to and c) as someone else said, I want her to understand what she is doing...

I don't think there is any point teaching a child how to do something at home until they are ready for it.

lljkk Mon 28-Jan-13 16:17:18

The only problem with giving a vague phrase instead of a score is then no one can tell if they've progressed later on. They just fall off the end of the marking scheme.

I truly think that common sense should be allowed to apply. Most of us don't need a marking scheme to tell that our DC have progressed or don't seem to have made progress.

learnandsay Mon 28-Jan-13 16:19:53

I agree that children need to understand what they're doing. But I don't agree that just because a child can do it then they don't understand it. I also think the person only suggested understanding as a possible issue. Some children do just get things straight away especially if they're taught in an intuitive way.

simpson Mon 28-Jan-13 20:13:13

I agree that some kids mature quicker then others in some areas so are able/ready to pick things up earlier...

I certainly don't think DD will go 2 NC levels from the end of reception to yr2 as she will not be mature enough iyswim...

numbum Mon 28-Jan-13 20:35:23

Both of my DC were given NC levels at the end of reception (DS' were numeracy related, DD's were in literacy). DS was levelled a 2c for maths and he was a level 4 in his KS1 SATS.

Children who are hot housed possibly wont make the expected progress IMO because, as L&S pointed out, the parents might not be hot housing in the correct areas to match the curriculum or the children lose interest after being forced to do things they don't want to do

learnandsay Mon 28-Jan-13 20:42:56

And then there's the truly sad possibility that the parent studied the curriculum, knows a lot about maths, tutored the child brilliantly in all areas of the subject and the teacher said no, she's not going to study these things because those are reserved for higher years. She just has to start all over again and that's that. (It happens.)

mrz Mon 28-Jan-13 20:48:19

Two full levels over the Key Stage so if your child ended reception at level 1c they would be expected to be 3c at the end of Y2 (of course children don't always follow nice linear patterns of progress so make make more or less progress for lots of good reasons)

mrz Mon 28-Jan-13 20:49:43

Nothing is reserved for higher years.

mrz Mon 28-Jan-13 20:50:43

If it were there would be no children achieving level 3 in Y2 or level 5 or 6 at the end of Y6 as these are expected levels for 14 year olds

numbum Mon 28-Jan-13 20:52:08

You should have added 'at a decent school' to the end of that sentence mrz!

learnandsay Mon 28-Jan-13 20:52:42

Ideally, not, no. But I've heard endless stories where parents have changed schools because their children were denied access to higher year's materials. (With a constant draining fight involving the head. It's a bit of a cliché.)

numbum Mon 28-Jan-13 20:54:11

'Nothing is reserved for higher years.' I meant that sentence (I need to learn to type faster)

numbum Mon 28-Jan-13 20:54:49

Maybe they just weren't ready for the higher year materials.

mrz Mon 28-Jan-13 20:56:56

So you've not heard of any child achieve level 3 in Y2? or and child achieve level 5 or 6 in Y6? learnandsay

learnandsay Mon 28-Jan-13 20:59:18

Maybe they were and maybe they weren't. But I find it hard to see how denying them access is helpful. Because the materials are available at WH Smiths anyway. So, in a fight between the parent and the school about what the child should access a determined parent is going to win anyway, (assuming she can buy WH Smith material.)

learnandsay Mon 28-Jan-13 21:00:21

Yes there are, mrz. But not in all schools.

mrz Mon 28-Jan-13 21:04:42

We could give reception quadratic equations, they aren't ready for the materials yet but why deny them access when parents can just buy a book at WHS hmm
or would it be more appropriate to teach them the next developmental step in the learning process

Feenie Mon 28-Jan-13 21:07:12

Yes there are, mrz. But not in all schools.

Really? Show me a school with 0% level 3 in Year 2 and 0% level 5 in Y6 year on year then, lands.

learnandsay Mon 28-Jan-13 21:07:54

I'm not talking about the whole class! I'm talking about certain children, like my friend's. He's a maths whiz and has decided, for fun, to teach his seven year old daughter algebra. He thinks it's amusing. She can do it, apparently.

Tgger Mon 28-Jan-13 21:09:24

Good for her and him. And the point is?

mrz Mon 28-Jan-13 21:09:48

about 40% of pupils nationally achieve level 5 or above

learnandsay Mon 28-Jan-13 21:09:49

That's where the phrase special measures comes from, mrz.

mrz Mon 28-Jan-13 21:11:36

reception children are taught algebra in the EYFS curriculum

Tgger Mon 28-Jan-13 21:11:58

What does level 5 mean in lay man's language? Can write a decent story that has structure with correct punctuation, spelling, and broad vocabularly? Or is this more level 3?

Feenie Mon 28-Jan-13 21:12:39

That's where the phrase special measures comes from, mrz.

What? confused

simpson Mon 28-Jan-13 21:15:41

But surely a lot of it comes down to maturity, yes a child at the end of reception who is a 1C would be expected to be a 3C at the end of yr2 but what about the children who are higher than a 1C at the end of r??

There must come a point where they will not make 2 levels of progress as they are not mature enough (ie if they are on a 2C or higher) as KS1 is not geared towards teaching level 3 let alone level 4 obviously....

simpson Mon 28-Jan-13 21:18:29

Tgger - I don't know what a level 3 entails but I have been told by DS's teacher (yr3) that the gap between 3C, 3B and 3A are all pretty big so I would have thought a younger child would find it tough (am thinking of writing in particular).

I was told it was the language used expressive words (words with feelings was how she described it) and descriptive words are crucial.

mrz Mon 28-Jan-13 21:20:13

KS1 is geared toward teaching whatever level a child is working on and there are children who achieve level 4 in Y2

mrz Mon 28-Jan-13 21:21:02

Level 2 is actually the broadest level

simpson Mon 28-Jan-13 21:21:24

Mrz - how are reception children taught algebra?? <<curious>>

My DS is 7 and he reads books on algebra and does it in his own time (I could not help him, I is fick)...

learnandsay Mon 28-Jan-13 21:21:57

Not in every school there aren't.

Tgger Mon 28-Jan-13 21:23:01

Well, I certainly will expect DS to progress between now and the end of Y2 and between Y3 and Y6. By Y3 I hope he can write fairly decently, by which I mean with good sentence structure, good spelling and good vocabularly- ie got the basics sussed and using them well (rather like his reading now). By Y6 I hope he is one of the 40% smile.

simpson Mon 28-Jan-13 21:23:57

My DC school have never had a child get a level 4 in KS1 before or a level 6 in KS2 but I went to a numeracy session at the school this afternoon and they have 2 kids due to sit level 6 this summer and 1 to sit a level 7....(in numeracy).

Feenie Mon 28-Jan-13 21:26:13

There isn't a level 7 test - they must mean level 7 teacher assessment. which is very impressive in Y6.

simpson Mon 28-Jan-13 21:26:26

Tgger - that's exactly what I want for DS (yr3) tbh...

Not sure yet about DD (too early) ATM my main concern is that she is not being too mean to her "best friend" grin

simpson Mon 28-Jan-13 21:27:50

Feenie - maybe, apparently this child is amazing. But English is not the child's first language so that is holding him back some what....

CaptainNancy Mon 28-Jan-13 21:29:41

Children use the principles of algebra from the start- when they're given sums such as "2 + ? = 3" they are using algebra to solve them- that's surely Reception (or nursery for some children).

No idea what learnandsay is trying to actually say re special measures.
I know a lot of schools, I've never come across one where KS1s don't get any 3s, perhaps not every year (depends on intake, v deprived authority), but some KS1 children will be appropriately working at that level.

Feenie Mon 28-Jan-13 21:29:55

Not so much, obviously!

simpson Mon 28-Jan-13 21:36:18

Feenie grin

CaptainNancy - thanks that makes sense now re algebra in reception...

This yr2 intake is lower academically than the last few years and there are still a good few level 3s predicted. I don't know how many obviously....

I don't know what the % of kids get level 3s in KS1 but in DS's year there were loads, not so many that got 3s in everything though....

mrz Mon 28-Jan-13 21:38:51
AbbyR1973 Mon 28-Jan-13 21:49:01

But surely the whole reason EYFS assessments are made in the first place is a demonstration that a school has added something to the child during that year. So you can demonstrate they have progressed against something during the year.
Therefore if a child were to enter reception working beyond EYFS at level 9 in most areas how will the school demonstrate externally that that child has progressed. That child does need a different scale on which to mark their achievements because EYFS means nothing to them, their parents or even their next teacher.
And why is it that such children "must have been hot-housed" and probably "not understand what they're doing." Why can't we give children more credit for their own abilities? Why can't we celebrate children for being clever in the same way we could talk proudly about any other talent they might have- musical/ artistic/sporting or anything else a child might be good at.

CaptainNancy Mon 28-Jan-13 21:51:55

That was really interesting, thanks mrz. I remember my DD as a R child, just taking so long to recognise patterns- they really foxed her, but once she got it, it really clicked for her. Need to experiment on my nursery child now... grin

yellowsubmarine53 Tue 29-Jan-13 06:12:56

An assessment at the beginning of Y1 will provide the data for the school to mark future progress against.

There's absolutely no need to have reception teachers using two different frameworks.

mrz Tue 29-Jan-13 07:44:30

If a child is exceeding the ELGs in reception they should be accessing the NC and would therefore be assessed against NC levels. In reality very few children are exceeding ELGs at the end of reception (not entry AbbyR)

simpson Tue 29-Jan-13 09:42:03

What is an ELG??

learnandsay Tue 29-Jan-13 09:43:03

I think they're early learning goals.

simpson Tue 29-Jan-13 09:48:33

Ah, thanks...

As mrz said I guess there will not be many kids exceeding them on entry to reception but it does not mean there aren't any at all iyswim.

If a school decide to assess a child using 2 methods (EYFS scores and NC levels) then I guess that's up to them.

It's not like a parent could demand the school do it (they could try but will not necessarily get it)...

learnandsay Tue 29-Jan-13 10:39:08

Aren't abbyr and mrz talking about two different things? Abbyr was talking about children entering reception already above EYFS and mrz implied that that is rare, because she says in reality few children leave reception above EYFS. (logically that means few could have entered above, unless they went backwards once the arrived at school, which some parents do claim.)

simpson Tue 29-Jan-13 10:52:23

I took it to mean that they were talking about the same thing, but that mrz implied that it is rare for a child to start reception on NC levels but not impossible.

Abby was saying that if they have finished EYFS scores (at the beginning of reception) then of course they should be assessed on NC levels.

IMO of course there are going to be kids leaving reception above EYFS (and I believe a significant amount in my DD's class this year, but not in all areas obviously) and even some starting reception above EYFS but it is rarer (especially in more than one area)...

Tgger Tue 29-Jan-13 14:15:43

"And why is it that such children "must have been hot-housed" and probably "not understand what they're doing." Why can't we give children more credit for their own abilities? Why can't we celebrate children for being clever in the same way we could talk proudly about any other talent they might have- musical/ artistic/sporting or anything else a child might be good at. "

Because, I think a lot of us (me included) don't like to label children at age 4 or 5.

Children are to a certain extent products of their environment so they may not have been "hot-housed" but they may have been around stimulating grown ups who have given them lots of attention and hence stimulated their developement whereas other children may not have been. The child that hasn't may enter YR with a "lower" score but does this does not mean such a child is any less "clever".

It's actually a big problem in our society that bright kids from poorer backgrounds do less well than less bright kids from wealthier backgrounds. Why? And is it too late at 4/5 to catch up. Some say yes it is, but that's another debate. And having opened a can of worms I shall leave it there...

learnandsay Tue 29-Jan-13 14:24:32

I can think of lots of reasons why well off children do better. They've probably got better educated parents who can teach them things. They've probably got access to private tuition. They probably come from environments where education and learning is valued rather than frowned upon. Of course these are generalisations. The media loves talking about certain individuals from poor backgrounds who achieved lots at school and university. Another cliché is the successful entrepreneur who left school early.

Cat98 Tue 29-Jan-13 16:54:36

My ds is doing similar things to those learnandsay mentions, he's in reception. He hasn't been hot housed and I also resent the implication from some posters that a child like this must have been. He has obviously been given attention and stimulation. Clearly not a bad thing? Though I agree we need to be cautious about labelling as early years development isn't linear as I think someone else said, and it's perfectly possible that he will slow down, or lose interest in numeracy, or just that other children will catch up. And while him losing interest would be a shame, the other things wouldn't worry me - it's not a race or a competition, I just want him to reach his potential, whatever that may be...

Cat98 Tue 29-Jan-13 16:57:12

I mean the maths things learnandsay mentioned earlier in the thread btw.
Also, I do think it's a shame if an able child isn't extended, even in reception, but I wouldn't get hung up on levels. For me, it's more about what ds is doing, is he happy, is he learning something.. Plenty of time for levels.

Iamnotminterested Tue 29-Jan-13 16:59:36

Gosh this has been busy!

So, as mrz said, 2 full levels over the key stage. That's all I wanted to know.

ipadquietly Tue 29-Jan-13 23:24:20

I have just received notification from my LEA that, following the introduction of the new EYFS curriculum, expected KS1 progress will be :
Y1 October - June .......4 points progress
Y2 entry - June ....... 5 points progress

I quote:
'For the average pupil:
Expected progress is 9 points from the end of October in Y1 to end of June in Y2. With the assumption that 3 points are achieved prior to entry the expected 12 points would be gained over the key stage.'

And if you understand how and when in September and October those 3 points are going 'to be gained', could you share it with me please? grin

educator123 Wed 30-Jan-13 20:55:36

Is it standard for schools to give out levels? My DD1 is currently in yr2 and i have never had any levels nor do i understand what they mean. I am curious as i would like to know if she is progressing well, but i'm not sure i would like to ask at the risk of sounding like a pushy mummy or the school taking offence.

Feenie Wed 30-Jan-13 21:26:17

It is statutory to report levels in Y2 and Y6.

simpson Wed 30-Jan-13 23:14:56

You should be able to ask for levels at parents evenings etc if you feel the need to (I do!!)....

learnandsay Wed 30-Jan-13 23:22:34

What's this:

I have just received notification from my LEA that, following the introduction of the new EYFS curriculum, expected KS1 progress will be :
Y1 October - June .......4 points progress
Y2 entry - June ....... 5 points progress

I quote:
'For the average pupil:
Expected progress is 9 points from the end of October in Y1 to end of June in Y2. With the assumption that 3 points are achieved prior to entry the expected 12 points would be gained over the key stage.'

mrz Thu 31-Jan-13 07:26:45

A score of 6 on the old EYFS profile equates to 3 points but we talk about adding 12 points over the KS which would equate to a level 2B

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