Stop Schools Cheating Please

(453 Posts)
twiggles Sun 20-Jan-13 11:17:02

Whatever your child is like, some primary schools and nurseries are pretending children start off at the low end, so they can pretend to inspectors of private and state schools that the child has developed only because of their teaching. If your child's advanced , some schools in rich areas take it out on the child. They won't bother giving the child attention, because the child's advanced, so they let the child coast downwards. But they give reports in writing about the child that pretend the child has started off at a low point in development and then got much better because of the teaching at the school....when the fact is the child was able to read or write when the child started at the school and as the school is giving the child little attention, the child has coasted downwards. Tha's what many schools do so they can pretend they've developed everything in the child, they want all children to be the same standard, like a photocopier. Poor children. Some teachers admit they're cheating and don't take the reports seriously and write them to impress inspectors. This is happending all over the show and I can't understand why inspectors are allowing them to get away with it. If parents start grading teachers in the school every three months the teachers won't be able to hide what's going on to the inspectors and teachers who are pretending might stop. Teachers that aren't giving inspectors the facts need to be stopped...they're not giving children an honest education.

ChippyMinton Sun 20-Jan-13 11:19:48

And you know all this because...?

JustinMumsnot Sun 20-Jan-13 11:21:30

That, OP, is a load of unmitigated bollocks.

twiggles Sun 20-Jan-13 11:24:21

....Teachers doing this don't seem to care what they say to parents who can't do much about it. Teachers like this only care about making themselves look good for inspectors.

Level3at6months Sun 20-Jan-13 11:27:45

Highly offensive to teachers, OP. Nothing like a good bit of teacher bashing on a Sunday morning... Not sure whether to go back to my planning now or to spend a couple of hours making stuff up about the children in Nursery to make me look good hmm

mrz Sun 20-Jan-13 11:31:28

If your child is truly advanced they don't "coast downwards" secure knowledge and skills don't drop out of a child's head. If your child can read before school they won't forget no matter how poor the provision especially if they come from the type of home that allowed them to enter school already reading.

mrz Sun 20-Jan-13 11:33:44

I wonder how the OP would view teachers grading parents every three months hmm

Elibean Sun 20-Jan-13 11:43:28

I have sometimes wondered how everyone else who happens to be responsible for children's development gets graded, but parents escape grin

twiggles Sun 20-Jan-13 12:01:35

What I'm saying will make some teachers, the ones who do this, defensive because they know it's true and they won't want to admit what they're doing because it won't make them look good. It won't make them look impressive. It won't help give a school a good rating. When you hit a nerve, sparks fly, and this is a nerve.

If a child's advanced in reading or writing in any class, they might be advanced because they're quick, no other reason. Some teachers look on a child who is more advanced than the others as a bad thing rather than letting the child move on from where they are. They'll do what they can to make the child fit into their rigid plan of how they think children should be not how they actually are and all they want to do is to impress inspectors, they'll do anything to look good, make the school look good, make it look as if they've developed the child. Teachers like this try to make children the same. Are children all the same? I don't think so. And how does a child feel if a teacher doesn't let the child move on at their own pace? Crestfallen, probably. To make a point...how would you like it if you had a baby who could walk confidently and someone looking after your baby full time wouldn't allow them to walk at all.

Phineyj Sun 20-Jan-13 12:03:49

What would your solution be OP?

Thatssofunny Sun 20-Jan-13 12:04:30

Twiggles...how about you homeschool? Since teachers are only getting into their job to make stuff up about other people's children confused in order for them to look good in the eyes of an inspector, perhaps you should extend your parental duties and teach your offspring yourself. I'm sure the teachers wouldn't mind, if you take your advanced child out of their care in order to match their statistics. hmm

I'll allow parents to grade my performance as soon as I am allowed to grade theirs.

mrz Sun 20-Jan-13 12:09:59

"If a child's advanced in reading or writing in any class, they might be advanced because they're quick, no other reason." regardless of how "quick" they are if they can securely do something before school they don't forget how to do it just because the teacher isn't focusing on that skill.

Snorbs Sun 20-Jan-13 12:10:25

As ChippyMinton said, you know all this because...?

I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm not a teacher, I'm a concerned parent. If what you're saying is true then it is something that needs to be addressed. But I'm going to need at least a bit more to go on than you just saying it's happening.

Thatssofunny Sun 20-Jan-13 12:11:18

Darn,..better get back to my planning and STOP my potential Level 5s from getting there. They need to wait until the Level 2s have caught up! How dare they move on and use figurative language in their writing? How dare they start to calculate fractions and percentages to express the probability of outcomes, while most of my class still try to spell the words right?

shock Oh no!!

Seriously,...have you never heard of "differentiation" (the inspectors would be so miffed, if they couldn't see any)? There's some in most lessons. Why? Because there are advanced and not so advanced and some quite normal children in every class. It's an utterly ridiculous idea to propose that teachers are holding children back to make sure everyone progresses at the same pace. What decade of the last century are you stuck in?

mrz Sun 20-Jan-13 12:14:08

My son started nursery able to read. The nursery didn't teach any reading in the two years he attended ... but he could still read. He then entered reception class at a different school where the policy was not to teach reading in the first half term ... but he could still read.

Heavywheezing Sun 20-Jan-13 12:14:48

Why your beef?

What have teachers done to you or your children?

Bunnyjo Sun 20-Jan-13 12:15:01

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

MrsDeVere Sun 20-Jan-13 12:16:57

Oh the old 'only the ones who are doing this will object to me saying it'

I hope you don't run out of tin foil in this snowy weather op.

Feenie Sun 20-Jan-13 12:19:09

Whatever your child is like, some primary schools and nurseries are pretending children start off at the low end

Evidence please, for 'some'.

I suspect you mean 'one', and from that your perception of what has happened to 'one' PFB child.

Judgements are monitored and moderated constantly by schools, SMT, LEA, OFSTED, etc, etc.

teacherwith2kids Sun 20-Jan-13 12:20:23

Twiggles, if that is what is happening in your school, to your child, then that is a crying shame - and because it is so unusual, there is an easy thing for you to do about it - move school, finding one that genuinely differentiates for children of different abilities.

Had your post been a specific 'there is a problem with my child's school because', then i would give your worry the time of day.

To couch it as a general occurrence needing a national solution is simply ignorant of realities.

I am not defensive, simply incredulous. I have no experience of a school doing as you describe, despite a wide experience across schools as a parent and as a teacher. I HAVE encountered a school which failed to provide adequately for a very bright child, but not for the reasons that you describe at all, simply due to endemic problems within the school and issues with the specific teacher (since addressed) and the response was as I have advised, to move schools. And I would agree with mrz that the bright child did not cease reading fluently, or calculating using negative numbers, just because they were not taught that in Reception.

Level3at6months Sun 20-Jan-13 12:22:21

The only nerve you've hit, OP, is that yet again someone is making sweeping generalisations about the teaching profession.

sausagesandwich34 Sun 20-Jan-13 12:24:08

If your child's advanced , some schools in rich areas take it out on the child

what an absolute load of utter bollocks

and why 'rich areas' -do poor areas not have advanced children at entry?

as a parent of 2 'advanced' personally I just call them children children, who could both read and write before they started nursery, all I can say is that school recognised their ability within the first half term and they were on the G&T register from this age so no dumbing down

they have been challenged to achieve their best all the way through school and school has bent over backwards to provide them with oportunities for 'enrichment'

nothing like a huge bollocks generalisation on a sunday

teacherwith2kids Sun 20-Jan-13 12:24:15

And OP, if your child is 'drifting downwards', might it perhaps be that they were not as advanced as you thought in the first place?

A genuinely bright child will not 'lose' those key skills, in fact will probably pick up extra ones in an 'untaught' way (child cited earlier could add and subtract 3 digit numbers on entry to school, added negative numbers to that repertoire in mid-Reception through looking at football league tables). However a child 'tutored to appear advanced' or 'put through hoops that they aren't really secure in' by a parent may well 'seem to drift downwards', because their undersranding was not secure in the first place.

LynetteScavo England Sun 20-Jan-13 12:24:32

Parents grading the teachers every three months. How will that work then?

Inspectors on come about once every three years, and as far as I'm aware, teachers track children to make sure they are making progress. If the child isn't making progress, then they will have to answer to the HT as to why not.

And I'm yet to meet the child who is brilliant at everything. IME, children who can read and write and are able with numbers when they start school are the ones who may well struggle socially. The teacher will be focusing on the whole child in such a case, not just advancing their reading and writing. If I hadn't seen that was the case with DS1, I may as well home educated him.

teacherwith2kids Sun 20-Jan-13 12:25:20

"IME, children who can read and write and are able with numbers when they start school are the ones who may well struggle socially. The teacher will be focusing on the whole child in such a case, not just advancing their reading and writing. "

Agree.

LynetteScavo England Sun 20-Jan-13 12:25:41

OP, if you are speaking from personal experience of your child, I suggest you move schools or home educate.

Sam100 Sun 20-Jan-13 12:31:38

No school in their right mind wants to hold the more able pupils back as one of the measures that ofsted look at is "added value". This means that at the end of the key stage a pupil has achieved more than the expected level of progress. So in ks1 pupils achieving a level 3 rather than 2. Then when that pupil goes into ks2 they should leave ks2 with a level 5 rather than a 4 etc etc. these levels are individual to the child and not the cohort so every teacher must work with the child's own levels and not the class as a whole. Also schools are measured in the achievement of certain key groups within the year. These include "free school meals" but also another group is "high achievers". Failing to make expected levels of progress with this group will also reflect badly on the school.

Some parents have unrealistic opinions of winkthe abilities of their children. Most schools are continually assessing the children - they do not clear a ks level until they can confidently do ALL of the steps in that level. It is possible that your child is far along in some areas but is missing the basics in other areas.

As a recent ex secondary teacher, sadly I have to agree with a lot of the OP. One of the reasons I left was the expectation that I would essentially lie on my reports to make it look as though the student had achieved their target. I would inherit classes every year, from primary and from other teachers within the school, who just could not produce work at the level that their previous teacher had put them down as. So I marked accurately and had to cope with poor performance data and fallout from parents, not to mention demoralised teenagers. The whole situation made me feel sick to be honest.

Just to add, I don't agree that able pupils are intentionaly held back though.

mrz Sun 20-Jan-13 12:35:39

Isn't the OP says the complete opposite to you IHeartKingThistle?

teacherwith2kids Sun 20-Jan-13 12:37:07

Ah, IHeart, that is a slightly different situation and one I would view with more sympathy - that in fact through the pressure of targets teachers / schools OVERstate the levels that a child is working at [though coaching for SATs or simply through 'optimistic' viewings of work], and with so much linked so strongly to absolute results I would say that some of this does occur.

The OP states that the process of UNDERstating the level at which an able child is working is endemic, and I would say that is not true in my experience.

twiggles Sun 20-Jan-13 12:40:03

I see there are teachers on this thread. The point I'm making is a serious one and needs to be dealt by inspectors. I haven't said whether or not I'm a teacher, it is of no consequence. I've drawn attention to the cheating that's going on in some schools. It's an open secret that there's cheating in some schools. A teacher afraid of being graded may be a teacher who thinks they may get some low grades. A good teacher would be given good grades by parents.... and if parents grade teachers it might help stop those teachers who are getting away with pretending...teachers doing it wouldn't be able to hide so easily.

Oops, maybe should have read it more carefully! I guess it is the other way round but the process of basically falsifying records is what chimed with me.

Must not MN and try to design a bathroom at the same time grin

Feenie Sun 20-Jan-13 12:42:21

I've drawn attention to the cheating that's going on in some schools. It's an open secret that there's cheating in some schools.

Evidence please of 'some' schools. Or we just cannot take you seriously at all.

WaynettaSlobsLover Sun 20-Jan-13 12:43:11

Just spoke to dh who is a teacher and he said it sounds likely. Maybe not in all cases but some

teacherwith2kids Sun 20-Jan-13 12:44:54

Twiggles,

Why are you suggesting that this should be done by parents (who in the main do not know anything about education other than having been at schools themselves) rather than by qualified professionals? I am already observed and graded with the frequency that you suggest by members of the management team and by e.g. schoiol improvement partners, and then at longer intervals by Ofsted.

Do you think that patients should observe and grade surgeons? People with bank accounts observe financiers? People who live in houses grade architects / structural engineers? Passengers grade airline pilots? Why is the view of the amateur so valuable in teaching while we would not consider it in other areas of life?

mrz Sun 20-Jan-13 12:46:23

I don't think any teacher is afraid of being graded by someone who knows what they are talking about and hasn't an axe to grind twiggles. In fact it happens to all teachers on a regular basis.

teacherwith2kids Sun 20-Jan-13 12:47:30

Inspectors, btw, do consider evidence of entry levels and progress, and do take it extremely seriously, scouring books and files of work for the evidence that the data they are given is based on. No 'parent jury' is required, it is happening already....

teacherwith2kids Sun 20-Jan-13 12:52:31

Also, there is a parent questionnaire for every inspection, and a parent panel meets the inspectors. If you have a specific concern, then write to Ofsted. There are plenty of routes to deal with a specific issue, and the precise issue that you describe is NOT endemic so a specific case-by-case approach is appropriate.
- Speak to the head.
- Raise the issue with governors in the correct form.
- Send it to Ofsted as a complaint.
- Feed back to ofsted using the quationnaire when your school is inspected.

A new nation-wide approach to solve the problem your child encounters in your school is the ultimate sledgehammer to crack a nut scenario.

41notTrendy Sun 20-Jan-13 12:54:05

I would be interested to know what you are basing this all on?
It's complete tosh anyway, but, let's pretend you have some well researched evidence.

Feenie Sun 20-Jan-13 12:55:31

Mostly agree with teacherwith2kids, but would add to the list:

- Speak to the head.
- Raise the issue with governors in the correct form.
- Send it to Ofsted as a complaint.
- Feed back to ofsted using the quationnaire when your school is inspected.
- Stop saying it is endemic in most schools and an open secret because it makes you sound like a paranoid loon.

LynetteScavo England Sun 20-Jan-13 12:59:13

But I, as a parent tend to be biases towards teachers I don't particularly like personally. DS1's teacher last year was a real meany. If I'd had to grade her after three/6 months, it would have been a low grade. But I could see at the end of the year why she is so well respected. She really brings children along, even if her moto is "I'm not here to be your friend."

twiggles Sun 20-Jan-13 12:59:50

There are some teachers on this thread....it seems a nerve has been hit. I've not said whether or not I'm a teacher, it's of no consequence. I've highlighted a serious issue. It's not new that there's cheating going on in schools so they look good for the inspectors. It's been in the news. I'm simply underlining one of the ways in which some teachers ap[pear to be cheating so they look good on paper.

LynetteScavo England Sun 20-Jan-13 13:00:14

Same with DS2's Y2 teacher..she was lovely. But I thought he wasn't learning anything all year. Actually he was, but I didn't realise until the end of the year.

Feenie Sun 20-Jan-13 13:01:59

It's been in the news.

A single shred of evidence/link please?

<weary>

mrz Sun 20-Jan-13 13:03:58

twiggles if you were a teacher you would know teachers are graded every step of the way ...

It's been in the news when? where? any links?

Marking down your pupils does not make you look good! Keeping every child at the same level would set off alarms all the way to Mr Wilshaw

teacherwith2kids Sun 20-Jan-13 13:04:31

Twiggles, please cite your evidence. Based on how many children, in how many schools?

teacherwith2kids Sun 20-Jan-13 13:06:00

Rwiggles could be a teacher in a private school, of course - I do not believe that they are observed / inspected in quite the same way or with the same rigour in some cases?

twiggles Sun 20-Jan-13 13:11:36

One of you suggest that parents know nothing about education. I would ask you to think again. As a teacher, are you saying that you have a good degree, a 2.1 or first, at a good university and that you have a further degree in Education, which is the standard in some countries in other countries?

Parents bring up their children and are likely to know more about their children than anyone else. Many of them have experience in a great deal of ways and may be far better qualified in education and other ways than any of the teachers they come across.

Feenie Sun 20-Jan-13 13:12:28

LINK

ninah Sun 20-Jan-13 13:12:29

In the past I have worked in a school where HT pressurized staff to report certain grades, and teachers kept a separate file for 'their' assessment and the 'official' assesment
In general though the pressure was to put grades up rather than down. I do not work there any more.

teacherwith2kids Sun 20-Jan-13 13:16:51

"As a teacher, are you saying that you have a good degree, a 2.1 or first, at a good university and that you have a further degree in Education, which is the standard in some countries in other countries?"

Yes. That is pretty much exactly my set of qualifications, except that I have an Oxbridge PhD as well.

41notTrendy Sun 20-Jan-13 13:17:27

You do understand OP, that just because you think something, it doesn't mean it's right, no matter how many times you say it?
Again, to give your opinion any credibility, what's your evidence?

Feenie Sun 20-Jan-13 13:20:07

It's been in the news.

Again - link please, Twiggles.

Have you fallen into Google? confused

peacefuleasyfeeling Sun 20-Jan-13 13:23:01

Erm, Twiggles, I am a teacher and I am sad to say you do have a point, at least in theory, but I'm sure it is not fair to say categorically that this practice is widespread.

I work in an inner city primary, a brilliant school (even if I say so myself) where we work with challenges such as our catchment being nearly off the scale on the urban deprivation index, a large majority of our pupils having English as an additional language, with some speaking little or no English on entry to our reception class, as well as a very transient school commumity. We have worked hard for our 'good' Ofsted ratings, but showing good attainment and proving value added is a challenge much of the way.

Now, our reception teacher recently went to a local conference where she fell into conversation with one of the reception teachers working in one of our city's more affluent catchment areas. This teacher said, by way of a helpful hint, that her team had a policy of "always erring on the side of caution" when making on entry assessments and subsequent EYFS profile assessments, as "it just makes it easier for everyone else further up" meaning that if the starting point is low enough subsequent teachers have a better chance of meeting their pupils' APS targets in the future. As a result, the majority of reception pupils in this over subscribed primary school in a very nice neighbourhood are either working toward or just scraping their ELG and are not or only just working at their age related expectations. (They do, however, come on stormingly later on, showing remarkable value added.) I know this area well, this school is one of a few possibilities for DD in a couple of years. It is a lovely school.

It is very, very difficult. Some years before I joined my school, one teacher had submitted rather optimistic end of Y2 teacher assessments and this had finally come around to haunt the school as it became clear that this particular cohort would never be able to make their end of Y6 targets as a result of those upbeat assessments four years previously. It resulted in a flurry of LA involvement, investigating how school had failed these children, as they were not on track to meet expectations. Lessons were learnt.

Oh boy, I hope I haven't upset anyone now.

richmal Sun 20-Jan-13 13:25:06

How do people know that what the OP is saying is not true? IME, for whatever the reason, I found I could not get the differentiation my child wanted. This was one reason I decided to HE.

Being told children were not assessed above level 3 at the end of KS1 was when I began to suspect there would be no catering for the more able.

Feenie Sun 20-Jan-13 13:26:36

that her team had a policy of "always erring on the side of caution" when making on entry assessments and subsequent EYFS profile assessments

That's very different to what the OP is suggesting - which is so severe it has been on the news. Apparently.

Feenie Sun 20-Jan-13 13:27:38

Being told children were not assessed above level 3 at the end of KS1

That's very wrong, plain and simple. But again, that's one school - not 'most'.

Thatssofunny Sun 20-Jan-13 13:29:25

"As a teacher, are you saying that you have a good degree, a 2.1 or first, at a good university and that you have a further degree in Education, which is the standard in some other countries?"

Actually, I have two degrees at the level you have mentioned, as well as postgraduate qualifications in Education.

There are parents, who know about education (a great many of them are teachers). There are also parents, who do not know much about education. Both categories mostly want the best for their children, that is why "trust" and "communication" are rather important. (If I don't know about a problem, I cannot do anything to fix it...Have you spoken to your child's teacher about your perceived lack of challenge?) If, however, they are never happy with their children's teachers and make accusations like the ones you are making, I'd suggest that they take their children and educate them themselves. After all, you seem to believe yourself to be vastly superior to any teacher anyway.

Parents bring up their children and know a lot about their children. Granted. That doesn't mean that they will perform heart surgery on them, when it's needed. It doesn't mean that they will be best placed to support their child, if it has mental health issues. There are professionals out there for a reason. Just knowing someone and wanting the best for them is not always enough. Sometimes, it requires someone with a little more distance and a greater level of experience with a specific issue. As a parent, how often are you responsible for the well-being and educational achievement of 30 children in your care at any one time?

CecilyP Sun 20-Jan-13 13:31:03

Parents bring up their children and are likely to know more about their children than anyone else. Many of them have experience in a great deal of ways and may be far better qualified in education and other ways than any of the teachers they come across.

In that case, their children are hardly likely to 'coast downwards' however hopelesss a school might be.

Charmingbaker Sun 20-Jan-13 13:32:11

Triffids, I don't mean to put you but is your RL name Michael Gove?

lljkk Netherlands Sun 20-Jan-13 13:34:33

In my part of the country we're all such turnip brains that we don't have these problems.

ninah Sun 20-Jan-13 13:35:42

peaceful R teachers are in a bind this year, with the EYFS changes (no scale points) - there is nowhere to go beyond Secure so if your dc come in at Secure you are stumped - all you can do is show you have made appropriate provision to extend them
having said that no one seems very sure about the new assessment procedures and guidelines are only now becoming available in our LEA

peacefuleasyfeeling Sun 20-Jan-13 13:35:44

Feenie, I was hoping to bow out and run, but I just want to clarify my point, perhaps too feebly made, which is that As a result, the majority of reception pupils in this over subscribed primary school in a very nice neighbourhood are either working toward or just scraping their ELG and are not or only just working at their age related expectations... after which I should probably have added "apparently". DD goes to nursery with kids who will be starting there; I just know they are as bright as buttons and will be sailing through those on entry assessments.

peacefuleasyfeeling Sun 20-Jan-13 13:40:22

Thanks, Ninah. That is interesting. I teach KS2, so R isn't my area of experise, but I do sympathise.

mrz Sun 20-Jan-13 13:46:14

Which ELGs are they just scraping peaceful?

peacefuleasyfeeling Sun 20-Jan-13 14:06:53

Hi mrz, I don't know. I am sharing what a colleague told me, but she didn't specify, and I didn't ask. And as I said, I teach KS2, so I am not, and wouldn't like to give the impression of being, too familiar with early years assessment.

mrz Sun 20-Jan-13 14:09:10

Well a child scraping the ELGs could mean a child scoring 4/9 or it could mean a child achieving 8/9 (9 being working within NC levels)...

ninah Sun 20-Jan-13 14:16:07

mrz the scale points to 9 went this year

ipadquietly Sun 20-Jan-13 14:20:38

I agree with peaceful
I am aware that some data manipulation takes place in certain schools who want to show outstanding progress and thus keep their -outstanding-- status.

This by no means insinuates that teaching and learning are compromised in any way.

mrz Sun 20-Jan-13 14:21:45

I assume peaceful is talking about last year as she/he mentioned scraping ELGs ninah

ninah Sun 20-Jan-13 14:23:50

oh OK I assumed this year's ELGs
ipad sums it up nicely I think

mrz Sun 20-Jan-13 14:32:17

Having low entry levels and making good progress over the primary phase doesn't automatically equate to "outstanding" in fact with the new Ofsted criteria it would be a factor.

twiggles Sun 20-Jan-13 14:57:03

We've hit a nerve centre. Things have to change and fortunately the Government is beginning to move in that direction. For the teacher on this thread who denigrated parents saying that most of them don't "know anything about education other than having been at schools themselves", and those of you who have a tendency towards that position, I believe the latter is a baseless assertion. Parents and children are the majority and their view is extremely important. It may be that some teachers fear putting themselves up for grading by parents for fear of being given low grades, maybe cos they think they'll be seen as socially inept. I believe the best teachers would welcome being graded by parents, as it would show just how good they are. And for the teacher who seemed to think that financial institutations and patients aren't graded by those who use them, it seems you're out of touch, the most reputed of them do assessments on a regular or ongoing basis. They usually something like ten or twenty questions and have a comment box at the end.

ipadquietly Sun 20-Jan-13 15:04:36

Yes, I agree, that there are even more hoops to jump through this year regarding teaching and learning, progress of 'group children', etc.

The 2012 Ofsted (MKIII) criteria make me feel queasy. I really wish we'd had ours last summer.

twiggles Sun 20-Jan-13 15:05:32

Last but one sentence of my last post 14:57:03 should read:
"And for the teacher who seemed to think that financial institutions and hospitals aren't graded by those who use them, it seems you're out of touch, the most reputed of them do assessments on a regular or ongoing basis. They usually have something like ten or twenty questions and have a comment box at the end."

mrz Sun 20-Jan-13 15:06:22

actually twiggles your posts have given me the best chuckle I've had so far this year

ipadquietly Sun 20-Jan-13 15:08:34

twiggles The parents would have no evidence on which to base their 'grading' - it would be on the basis of second hand report from their children. Or are you suggesting they all come in to observe us on a rota system and give us marks out of 10? grin Will they provide feedback? Will teachers be allowed to respond?

mrz Sun 20-Jan-13 15:10:09

and I would like to say thank you for brightening a snowy Sunday

mrz Sun 20-Jan-13 15:11:34

does your school not send out a termly parents questionnaire twiggles?

teacherwith2kids Sun 20-Jan-13 15:15:07

Twiggles,

Schools are commented on by those who use them - that's what ParentView and parent questionnaires are about. Every school I have ever been in issues a parent questionnaire annually. Equally, I have commented on my experience as a patient at my Doctor's surgery (overall) and at my bank (overall).

However, where this differs from what you propose is that it is at an institutional, not an individual, level. And also that I am grading 'my experience', not 'my doctor' - in the same way that when I fill in my parental questionnaire for my children's schools, I am commenting on my children's experience of school (which I am absolutely qualified to do) but not on 'the ability of an individual teacher' (which I am not qualified to do, even as a fellow professional, because I do not observe them on a day to day basis, scrutinise their marking, look at a cross-section of pupil's books, look at progress across the class statistically, experience their subject co-ordination responsibilities, view a cross-section of lessons, scrutinise planning etc).

If parents are to grade teachers, then they would need to be able to do all of those things, exactly as those such as SMT and inspectors who do scrutinise teacher performance do, otherwise their view of a teacher's perfomance is partial and potentially biased too much by an individual viewpoint. Is that what you are proposing? Groups of parents observing lessons, scrutinising books etc etc?

If a parent has an issue with my teaching of their child or their child's progress, my door is always open to them. I spend many, many hours in such discussions, both positive and negative. Having just moved jobs, I know from dozens and dozens of written comments that I am held in high esteem and would be graded well. I still do not think that 'being graded by parents' would add one jot to the actual performance assessment or professional development of teachers.

teacherwith2kids Sun 20-Jan-13 15:16:19

Mrz, I suspect from the fact that Twiggles' previous (all deleted) posts have been on posts about private schools, that her experience of the state sector is in fact somewhat limited.

mrz Sun 20-Jan-13 15:19:47

I don't think it just her experience of the state sector that is limited to be fair hmm

twiggles Sun 20-Jan-13 15:26:08

Re comment: "The parents would have no evidence on which to base their grading". The latter is considered to be a baseless assertion. Parents have more information than anyone else. Firstly, they know how teachers really interact with parents, not only the few who may have other links with the school or from whom they may gain advantage in another way. Parents will know if the teacher is taking the parents' knowledge of their children into account. Parents will know if a teacher writes something about their child that shows the teacher has little idea what their child is like. Parents will know when they look at their children's school exercise books, what the teacher is doing with their children, and whether they are doing enough. Parents will know how much the teacher is reading with their child and whether the comments they make in the Reading Record have anything to do with reality or not. And so on. Parents will know what's gong on. Don't underestimate parents. There will be exceptions, but generally parents know more than anyone else how their children are doing. The problem with some teachers is that they appear to have become arrogant and think they should not have to answer to anyone. I believe they are wrong and that the situation must change as soon as possible. It is unfair to children not to stamp out any cheating that may be going on in schools today.

twiggles Sun 20-Jan-13 15:26:45

re: mrz - glad the thread's brightened up your day.

teacherwith2kids Sun 20-Jan-13 15:33:11

Twiggles,

I answer to:
- My pupils (daily)
- Parents (daily)
- Senior Management team, including all the subject leaders and the SENCo
- Head
- Governors
- LEA and their assorted advisors
- School Improvement Partner
- Ofsted
- DfEE

Also, of course, all other bodies such as Health and Safety etc.

Who else was it that you thought that I should answer to? Could you possibly give me ANY evidence to back up your assertions?

Btw, you perceive criticism as evidence that teachers are hiding something. It is in fact the case that you are being criticised because you have not given any facts or genuine evidence to back up your assertions.

Please could I come and observe you doing whatever it is that you do for a living? Actually, no, could I send my 10 year old, who will then report back to me and I shall grade you on the results....

ipadquietly Sun 20-Jan-13 15:37:16

Oh, they're going to do book scrutinies as well? Blimey, this could turn into a full time job.
Perhaps Ofsted should just hire a mum's army and save the country squillions of pounds.

twiggles Sun 20-Jan-13 15:38:51

Schools don't send out questionnaires each year. Those that have any form of feedback generally have strict rules that only positive, general, things can be said. So what's said is invariably innocuous.

We need teachers to be graded by parents every term, or at least in July, every single academic year. And the grading needs to be handled independently of the school to give it credibility.

cumbrialass Sun 20-Jan-13 15:39:13

I see many parents for possibly 5 minutes per day, my "interaction" with most consists of "cold today isn't it", "has Jimmy remembered his Pe kit today", many parents I don't see at all. Parents have knowledge of what their child is like at home, not at school. I have had several parents describe how dreadfull their child is at home, when they are a perfect angel in school ( and vice versa!) many children are completely different in the school environment. So what I write in a report is based on what I see for the 6 hours a day I see their child in the class, not what the parents percieve they will be like based on their experience of their child in the home environment.Parents can look through exercise books and see what is recorded there, they will not know of the hours we spend NOT working in books, working with partners, on whitebards, on ICT based activities, on discussion, role play, all the elements that lead up to the work in books, how would these be judged?

teacherwith2kids Sun 20-Jan-13 15:40:13

Ah, no, ipad, they are only going to scrutinise THEIR OWN CHILD'S books, and from that grade the teacher overall. A statistical sample to get a balanced viewpoint - which would indeed take time - forms no part of the plan.

FelicityWasCold Sun 20-Jan-13 15:40:31

The problem with some teachers is that they appear to have become arrogant and think they should not have to answer to anyone

Teachers have line managers, and are accountable to head teachers. Schools are regularly inspected by a professional inspectorate.

It is extremely arrogant to assume that you know better than the professionals concerned. Not only that, you assume that parents as a whole are better placed than professionals to understand teaching and learning.

Out of curiosity, what about teachers who are also parents would they be exempt from inspection duties?

OP your children are very lucky, you clearly care a lot about their education and are engaged in it despite being in possession of flawed logic . I'm afraid you do not represent the majority you think you do, most parents would not feel qualified to inspect teachers and thousands simply do not care enough.

cumbrialass Sun 20-Jan-13 15:40:36

Schools do send out parent questionnaires every year and have no control over what feedback is given, how could we!!

Labro Sun 20-Jan-13 15:41:29

Having been in the state system and then moving to the private system, I wouldn't say that what you allege is widespread. If it is happening to your dc, then take it up with their school and ultimately consider moving schools. As an example, my ds is considered very able, his recent report stated that he had gone down a sub level in maths. So, instead of believing that all private schools have this problem I rang his maths teacher - turns out he hadn't understood fractions and didn't tell her, so she did a couple of catch up lessons and I didn't assume that there was something going on! If there is a problem of this nature at your independent prep school then make an appointment with the head and the govenors - but childrens levels do fluctuate, those being very bright at one age may not be as the scheme of work gets harder and parents should not automatically think its the teacher who is at fault.

teacherwith2kids Sun 20-Jan-13 15:42:30

Twiggles,

YOUIR school may not send out parent questionnaires each term. The 3 schools I know as a parent, the 5 I know directly as a teacher and the dozens I know indirectly as a teacher all do.

Perhaps you could suggest that to the school that you are worried about and is at the heart of your concerns?

cumbrialass Sun 20-Jan-13 15:43:06

Out of a class of 31, approximately 10 think I'm the best thing since sliced bread, 3 don't really like me and think their child would do better somewhere else, the rest couldn't give a stuff as long as their child is out of the house from 9 o'clock until 3.15. What grading would that give me?

FelicityWasCold Sun 20-Jan-13 15:44:15

Schools don't send out questionnaires each year.
Some do, some don't. All have communication policies, and complaints procedures.

Those that have any form of feedback generally have strict rules that only positive, general, things can be said. So what's said is invariably innocuous.

Not true, and if they did, how exactly would this be enforced?

We need teachers to be graded by parents every term, or at least in July, every single academic year

Do we? Why is that?

And the grading needs to be handled independently of the school to give it credibility.

And would do this? What would it cost? Could it ever be credible if it is not objective. How would you ensure all parents marked the same standard?

enjolraslove Sun 20-Jan-13 15:45:56

To answer your insulting question, yes I do have a 2i from Cambridge and a masters in my subject and education, also from Cambridge. That isn't what has made me a good teacher, though it has helped. What has taught me has been my training, mentors and experience. All of this involved and still does vast amounts of feedback. Some of which has been from parents. At my school we regularly ask for feedback from kids and parents on all things, including teaching. However, we also recognise that this is limited by a lack of expertise and experience and consequently we also have robust monitoring by experts. Same as all those other areas you mentioned.

tethersend Sun 20-Jan-13 15:46:27

Don't be silly twiggles- teachers haven't got time to interact with youparents the way you describe; we've got thirty children whose lives won't ruin themselves, you know.

Tsk.

teacherwith2kids Sun 20-Jan-13 15:46:56

Twiggles,

The private schools that you have knowledge of may not, of course, follow the good practice of all state schools and send out regular questionnaires. But that is no reason to assert that no schools do - as ever, restricting your assertions to what you have actually experienced may make you more credible:

'My child's school does not send out questionnaires'
'I am worried that my child's school is not stating his / her level correctly and they do not appear to be making progress'
'I am concerned about my child's teacher this year'

are all credible concerns.

'All teachers are in a conspiracy to downgrade bright pupils so all schools musyt be inspected by parents'
is not credible, simply because there is so much evidence against it and you have offered no evidence to support your case.

teacherwith2kids Sun 20-Jan-13 15:48:20

(As I have stated my educational credentials, btw, please could you state yours?)

twiggles Sun 20-Jan-13 15:48:49

The key is that you're not graded by parents, whose children you teach. On the ladder of hierarchy, it's clear by your comments that you put parents at the bottom. What I'm saying is that parents must be put right at the top.

Teachers need to answer to the people, parents, who are responsible for providing the children that give the teachers their jobs. What ;the parents say could then be passed on to the other bodies, as it would speak for itself, and save everyone a lot of time.

cumbrialass Sun 20-Jan-13 15:49:08

( and I have a 2i but it's only from a Russell Group university ( and from the days when a University education actually meant something!) together with a post graduate and masters qualification in education) Most teachers actually see value in a decent education you know!

Feenie Sun 20-Jan-13 15:52:45

Teachers need to answer to the people, parents, who are responsible for providing the children that give the teachers their jobs.

Why, when you have failed to answer anything asked of you on this thread?

Feenie Sun 20-Jan-13 15:53:51

What I'm saying is that parents must be put right at the top.

Really? I put children at the top. Gosh, I must be really crap, then....confused

teacherwith2kids Sun 20-Jan-13 15:54:54

In terms of hours devoted to 'answering to people', I probably spend more hours answering to parents (in the form of face to face meetings to discuss issues or concerns) than to any other group except the children themselves.

I am observed for more hours, and get a fuller cross-section of my teaching practice, by my professional peers and by my head, but for 'hours in face to face contact / discussing concerns', parents / guardians would be ahead.

The slant is different, of course - a parent's main concern is their child, while professional colleagues will look across the whole range of my work, but in terms of 'hours spent' I would not say that I 'put parents last'.

learnandsay Sun 20-Jan-13 15:55:20

Parents can run their own schools these days. So maybe the problem will go away.

tethersend Sun 20-Jan-13 15:58:18

"Teachers need to answer to the people, parents, who are responsible for providing the children that give the teachers their jobs."

True.

In fact, I think we should send them thank you letters for keeping food on our tables. Or something.

teacherwith2kids Sun 20-Jan-13 15:58:39

Having cross-posted with Feenie, I would emphasise 'than to any other group except the children themselves'.

My primary focus, as a teacher, is for every single child to make progress. Those with 'in your face' parents, those with 'in the background' parents, those who are bright, those who have difficulties - doesn't make a difference. My job is to ensure that every single one of them makes the maximum progress they are capable of. To do that well, I don't need to be 'more answerable' to anyone. In fact I probably need to spend less time answering to people, and more time actually making a difference to every child....

twiggles Sun 20-Jan-13 15:59:24

Parents know what they experience with the teacher and what their children tell them about the teacher. Parents also know whether or not the teacher is communicative. If a teacher is not up to scratch in some ways, the parent will know and a child will usually say something that gives the parent more feedback. Parents know which teachers are the good and which teachers are not. Parents usually know the plus and negative points of teachers. Grading teachers would keep them on their toes and help to make sure teachers treat parents with respect.

Lifeissweet Sun 20-Jan-13 15:59:33

What you are talking about is really dangerous, Twiggles. If you grade your doctor, you will make comments about your experience of being treated by that doctor - how well they listened to you, how good their advice was...etc. What are you going to judge your child's teacher on? You can comment on their communication with parents - that's fair enough. You have first hand experience of that, but that is it. Everything else is second hand information. You are not the service user of a school - your child is.

You are talking here about the possibility of a good teacher being hounded out of a job by parents who due to wrong impressions, personality clashes, school gate gossip and second hand information. I am not popular with some parents because I tell them the truth about their child and they don't like to hear that sometimes - however supportive I am and however gently I approach it. Do I deserve a bad rating because that parent doesn't like what I have to say about their child's behaviour?

I answer to people who watch me teach, who look at my planning, who follow the children's tracking data and who understand what I am trying to achieve with all of the children in my class. That interests me more than what parents feel about my teaching based on...what exactly?

mrz Sun 20-Jan-13 15:59:52

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Lifeissweet Sun 20-Jan-13 16:03:10

Sorry - in rather a flap. That paragraph was supposed to read: who due to wrong impressions, personality clashes, school gate gossip and second hand information have become a victim of a bad rating.

and yes, I do have a 2:1 from a good university, and a PGCE and a Masters. Thanks.

cory Sun 20-Jan-13 16:03:37

If parents are put at the top and get to decide the teachers' destiny single-handed, how many teachers will be downgraded because they told PFB off for bullying or insisted that they complete their work?

How do you know, OP, that all the other parents would support your ideas of wanting high standards and hard work? What about the parents who were not supportive of these ideas, but who thought education was overrated and noone must make their child exert himself- should their voice be equally weighty?

We had an excellent Spanish teacher at my secondary: hardworking, highly competent, inspiring, got excellent results. A few years after I left I heard that she had been hounded out by parents because the pupils thought she made them do too much work. The school was the poorer for it.

I believe in schools listening to parents. But not exclusively to parents, nor in them treating every single parent as if they

mrz Sun 20-Jan-13 16:04:16

Some years ago I had the misfortune to work with a useless teacher (not just my opinion) but the parents loved him because he spun them lies. Probably helped that he was tall dark and reasonably good looking and flirted with them.

tethersend Sun 20-Jan-13 16:04:44

In the nicest possible way twiggles, have you thought about getting out a bit more? Maybe doing some sort of a course?

How about flower arranging? Or a PGCE?

twiggles Sun 20-Jan-13 16:05:46

Grading a teacher is no work for the teacher. It would be the parents who are doing the work! It would help encourage all teachers to make sure they maximise the progress of every children through out the academic year, not just the few whose parents might have links to the school or whom they might have another gain. It would help make sure a teacher takes greater care to be accurate and doesn't make comments that aren't factual.

ipadquietly Sun 20-Jan-13 16:06:10

twiggles It goes both ways. 30% of my KS1 class never read at home. I have communicated with the parents and have told them that reading at home would help their children's progress. I have offered children merit marks if they read at home; I continue to write weekly notes in their blank home reading diaries.

Believe it or not, some of these parents get mighty pissed off when I hassle them about doing 10 minutes reading 3-4 times a week at home.

Do you feel that the parents who don't give a toss about their children's education should be involved in your national grading exercise?

Lifeissweet Sun 20-Jan-13 16:07:26

I don't consider that parents AT ALL when assessing my children. Who would do that?!

You have an extremely strange view of what goes on in schools, Twiggles. May I suggest you send your child to school elsewhere if this is what is going on?

teacherwith2kids Sun 20-Jan-13 16:07:42

Conversation between parent and teacher (slightly adapted to remove some aggressive language from parent at the beginning):

Parent "Little Johnny says that you kept him in at break yesterday"
Teacher "Yes, did he tell you why?"
Parent "No,he said that you were unfair and hated him"
Teacher "So he didn't tell you that he had punched another child in the stomach and then swore at a lunchtime supervisor?"
Parent "No"
Teacher "There were witnesses to the attack and your child admitted what had happened"
Parent "Oh, he didn't tell me that, he just told me that you were the worst tacher he had ever had".

Sometimes children are not the most reliable reporters on a teacher's quality!

teacherwith2kids Sun 20-Jan-13 16:10:02

"It would help encourage all teachers to make sure they maximise the progress of every children through out the academic year, not just the few whose parents might have links to the school or whom they might have another gain. It would help make sure a teacher takes greater care to be accurate and doesn't make comments that aren't factual. "

But that is what I do - and what the vast majority of teachers do. I'm really sorry about your experience with your child's school, I really am, but take it up with them individually rather than smearing a whole profession incorrectly on a public forum.

Lifeissweet Sun 20-Jan-13 16:10:05

In fact, I would go so far as to say that parents don't figure much in most of what I do as a teacher. I keep them informed. I meet with them. I discuss their children with them, but when I plan, when I deliver a lesson, when I discipline, when I assess and mark...I am thinking only of the child. The parent doesn't cross my mind. Is this not how you would prefer it?

Labro Sun 20-Jan-13 16:11:18

'what their children tell them about the teacher' - thats a dangerous thing to grade a professional on! My ds hates his french teacher with a passion, why? Because she actually had the audacity to expect him to do some french in a french lesson rather than day dreaming about steam trains! On the other hand, he loves his science teacher because she is young, very pretty and allows them to blow things up! There are way too many factors which affect how a child feels about a teacher to actually use this feedback to make an objective assessment of their skills.

Feenie Sun 20-Jan-13 16:13:55

Twiggles, are you actually going to interact with anyone who us telling you why this isn't a good idea, or provide any of the evidence you have been asked for?

Do you think this lack of ability to interact with anyone or provide justifcation for anything, at all, whatsoever, makes you a reliable candidate to rate teachers?

On the up side, congrats on managing to have a thread with posts which don't get you deleted. thanks

pointythings Netherlands Sun 20-Jan-13 16:14:22

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

cumbrialass Sun 20-Jan-13 16:14:28

Teachers HAVE to maximise the progress of every child in their class, this is what we are measured on ( although I don't think there's a vunerable group entitled "Children of parents with links to school or from whom I have something to gain" so these particular children aren't measured seperately!)

Lifeissweet Sun 20-Jan-13 16:15:13

Teachers have different strengths - like all human beings. Some grab attention and put on an interesting show, some have a great rapport with parents, some can explain an idea in a way that children grab on to, some are excellent facilitators - enabling children to learn for themselves, some are superbly organised and keep perfect records and paperwork - many teachers are combinations of all of these things, but I would hate to think that an excellent teacher got a bad 'grade' because a disproportionate emphasis on how a teacher comes across to the parents. It is not a good marker on which to judge a complex profession.

mrz Sun 20-Jan-13 16:16:26

My class told their parents that I'm 128, drink blood and sacrifice the child whose name is drawn from the box of doom grin and some of that isn't true

Lifeissweet Sun 20-Jan-13 16:19:21

Ha ha Mrz.

I had a parent of a year 1 child ask for a serious word with me because his 5 year old always answered the 'what did you do today?' question at the end of the day with: 'nothing'. He seemed to think it was possible that I made the children sit still staring at a blank wall all day, or something.

I would not like that parent judging my teaching.

Labro Sun 20-Jan-13 16:19:36

And if your childs teacher writes comments about your child which you as the parent consider to be inaccurate (which I had to do with a Year 3 teacher who decided ds was 'autistic' because he chewed pencils) take it up with that particular teacher rather than wanting a nationwide assessment of all teachers - that would have been like me assuming all year 3 teachers are loony!

twiggles Sun 20-Jan-13 16:20:22

In answer to one comment, I am well qualified and have work I have always enjoyed, thank you.

The subject I've raised is an important one and one that needs to be addressed as soon as possible. That's why I've taken the time to share it with you.

teacherwith2kids Sun 20-Jan-13 16:21:41

Twiggles,

If your child has given negative feedback about their current teacher(s) - which I presume from your OP that they have - then

a) What steps have you taken to investigate the truthfulness of this feedback? Is it borne out by other evidence e.g. from books, from parents' evenings etc?
b) How many meetings or telephone calls with his / her teacher have you had to resolve issues?
c) Have you taken your concern to the head?
d) Have you referred concerns / complaints to the governors?
e) Have you investigated other schools?

Lifeissweet Sun 20-Jan-13 16:22:58

I don't really understand how this 'cheating' happens anyway. The pure amount of evidence we need to provide for every judgement means that we couldn't possibly cheat even if we wanted to. If you have found a school where the teachers are making assessments without evidence, you have found a dodgy school and I would be removing my children.

mrz Sun 20-Jan-13 16:23:02

qualified for what role?

teacherwith2kids Sun 20-Jan-13 16:24:58

"The subject I've raised is an important one and one that needs to be addressed as soon as possible. "

Please provide evidence (in your next post, please) that this issue:
a) Exists in your child's school (which i presume prompted the post)
b) Exists more widely
c) Needs addressing at all (through robust nationwide statistical evidence, please - as a scientist by training I find unsupported assertions, especially those where there is not even any anecdotal evidence, painful)

I also ask again - please can my 10 year old come to see you at work and then pass on her views so that I can grade you on your performance?

teacherwith2kids Sun 20-Jan-13 16:29:58

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Labro Sun 20-Jan-13 16:30:08

The problem here seems to be that you have had an issue with a particular group of teachers at a particular school. That means that this is an issue you need to address for your child, possibly with assistance from the many teachers on these boards who would be more than happy to point you in the direction of how to get this issue resolved and how your particular county or LEA or the independent schools council would approach this issue. It isn't however a nationwide issue that everyone suddenly needs to be made aware of

twiggles Sun 20-Jan-13 16:30:46

Teachers in schools need to be graded countrywide. The teachers on this thread don't seem to want to be and the question is what are they afraid of? If the get a high grade, they could get a pay rise. If they don't well, they'll need to improve, which would benefit everyone.

ipadquietly Sun 20-Jan-13 16:35:22

Sir Michael Wilshaw and Govey have already thought of that one, twiggles!

cumbrialass Sun 20-Jan-13 16:35:27

Teachers ARE graded countrywide (perhaps not is private schools, but certainly in state schools), just not by you!

mrz Sun 20-Jan-13 16:36:09

twiggles you are behind the times teachers are graded it's called performance management ...we also have HMI, SIPs and Ofsted as well as observations/drop ins by parent governors.

Snorbs Sun 20-Jan-13 16:36:28

twiggles, I'm a parent who is concerned by what you have written. Please can you give us at least an inkling about why you think this is happening and what evidence there is that can be pursued.

Labro Sun 20-Jan-13 16:39:39

But you are suggesting they be graded by parents. This cannot work as a parent and childs judgement of a teacher is purely subjective to that parents experience. The teachers are already subject to grading from an independent body. None of them are objecting to being graded, just to being graded by a completely subjective body and probably based on whether dc had apple or banana for his snack or whether he was allowed to go to the loo 20 times!

teacherwith2kids Sun 20-Jan-13 16:40:26

Twiggles, I am happy to be inspected and graded - I am observed and graded very regularly, and am also assessed against my annual targets. Those relate, amongst other things, to the children I teach making maximum progress from when they left the previous class (no opportunity to 'downgrade' children at the start of the year, it is from years' end to year's end, with stacks of supporting evidence which is carefully scrutinised).

The question is, who is appropriate to do that grading? A parent, with a second-hand view from their own child, or a number of professionals viewing a cross-section of my work (including, if need be, any feedback from parents - if parets are constantly beating a path to a head's door to tell them that a particular teacher is poor, then that will obviously have an impact on the ongoiung professional feedback and discussions between teachers and their line managers, in the asame way as a series of complaints (or praise) about a specific employee in any company would find its way to a line manager who would deal appropriately with the information)

teacherwith2kids Sun 20-Jan-13 16:42:30

(Oooh, I've been deleted! First time ever! I'm afraid that my 10 year old was a bit too honest in how she reported her thoughts on Twiggles)

cumbrialass Sun 20-Jan-13 16:45:14

You mean we're not allowed to say Twiggles is an idiot, when all the evidence so far suggests this is the case! Perhaps if she stopped behaving like one, we might stop thinking she is!

enjolraslove Sun 20-Jan-13 16:46:37

Teachers country wide are graded. Several times a year.
No one disagrees that this is necessary, what we disagree with is the idea that parents are best placed to do this.
The views of parents are important but not wholly reliable. Some good examples have been given on the thread here are a few more parents I wouldn't want grading teachers:
- the mother whose daughter was sexually assaulted and told me her daughter asked for it
- the father who said he didnt want 'that dark one' teaching his kid
- the mother who asked why we taught other religions
- the many parents who say 'you do what you want with them- they don't listen to me'
- the mother of the kid who says it is only at school that anyone notices when he is upset
- the parents who do not talk to their kids, feed them enough, dress them properly or take any part in their education
Now obviously this is not all parents, but I would imagine most of these would grade me pretty low because i suggest (demand) that their views are unwelcome at school and they should do better. I'm sur even you twiggles would agree that this does not make me bad at my job
My question is shall we include these parents? Or only ''nice' ones? Who gets to choose? You? Me?

pointythings Netherlands Sun 20-Jan-13 16:46:48

<Sends congratulations to teacherwith2kids>

I'm still waiting for some evidence, Twiggles... Ongoing unsubstantiated statements don't count, I'm afraid.

enjolraslove Sun 20-Jan-13 16:49:13

The parent who keeps 15 year old at home to help with baby the day score an exam ?

pointythings Netherlands Sun 20-Jan-13 16:57:11

Ooooh, I've been deleted too - my first ever. Thanks, MNHQ!

Bunnyjo Sun 20-Jan-13 17:04:13

My first ever deletion too...

cumbrialass Sun 20-Jan-13 17:04:30

I haven't been ........yetgrin

ninah Sun 20-Jan-13 17:09:38

when's this thread going to kick off then?

mrz Sun 20-Jan-13 17:13:40

bugga it's a cull I've been deleted too? and I didn't even call twiggles an idiot (can MN read minds?)

Feenie Sun 20-Jan-13 17:14:47

twiggles, I'm a parent who is concerned by what you have written. Please can you give us at least an inkling about why you think this is happening and what evidence there is that can be pursued.

She can't. Obviously.

Feenie Sun 20-Jan-13 17:16:39

Lmao off at mrz's deletion grin grin grin

pointythings Netherlands Sun 20-Jan-13 17:17:18

grin cumbrialass. And ninah too.

Anything, what I said in my original post was a simple request for evidence followed by an assertion that as a parent whose DDs have been very well served by their teachers, including differentiation because their are able, I don't recognise what the OP stated as a common problem.

The teachers on this thread aren't being defensive, they are raising genuine concerns about the concept of teachers being graded by parents based on the children's feedback - very valid ones, I might add. I've met a lot of parents in my time - some of them would provide useful and reasonable feedback, others - very much not. A blanket 'let parents be the judge' system would cause all kinds of problems.

pointythings Netherlands Sun 20-Jan-13 17:18:19

mrz join the club. I'm feeling a warm glow of inclusion here, perhaps we should start a quiche?

Feenie Sun 20-Jan-13 17:18:39

grin

mrz Sun 20-Jan-13 17:18:47

I may try for a second just for the satisfaction of telling twiggles grin

Bunnyjo Sun 20-Jan-13 17:23:48

That's what I cannot understand. It's fine to make very sweeping and derogatory generalisations about a profession, even asking what qualifications those professionals hold, implying they're less qualified than their European counterparts! But you cannot question the OP's motive, ask for proof of her claims or imply her ideas are less than half-baked without being deleted confused

FelicityWasCold Sun 20-Jan-13 17:24:15

OP all schools are assessed already (Private schools and ISI (independent schools inspectorate, State have OFSTED- Although the two regulators do also work together).

The only objection we are raising is with being assessed by non-professionals who are not in a position to judge professionals.

Will you please answer some of the questions being out to you on here. You are rather shooting your argument in the foot by not engaging with criticism of your own ideas.

41notTrendy Sun 20-Jan-13 17:25:09

Thought I'd have another look to see if OP has bothered to substantiate her opinion yet. Nope. And despite numerous others contradicting many of her points, OP still forging ahead. And sounding even more deranged.

ShipwreckedAndComatose Sun 20-Jan-13 17:27:22

Evidence??? As a parent, I would like to view and evaluate it for myself rather than just take your word for it.

Me thinks twiggles is very bored of snow.... hmm

mrz Sun 20-Jan-13 17:33:12

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

ShipwreckedAndComatose Sun 20-Jan-13 17:34:40

Ooh! You are sooo going to get deleted again!!! grin grin

Labro Sun 20-Jan-13 17:35:04

Substitute 'some' for 'one' as the evidence suggests that the OP has unfortunately had a bad experience relating to her own child and then generalised it to a national level

pointythings Netherlands Sun 20-Jan-13 17:35:46

mrz that isn't fair, you're going to score your second without making a real effort!

<pouts>

And will nobody think of poor Feenie who hasn't had a deletion gong yet?

OP, where are yoooooo? We would still like some evidence, pretty please.

<bats eyelashes seductively>

mrz Sun 20-Jan-13 17:46:05

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

ShipwreckedAndComatose Sun 20-Jan-13 17:48:26

She's certainly hit my nerve grin

pointythings Netherlands Sun 20-Jan-13 17:52:05

mrz! Stop it, or I will give you a detention!!! grin

mrz Sun 20-Jan-13 17:52:28

pointy Feenie isn't even trying grin

Feenie Sun 20-Jan-13 17:55:59

I wasn't - I went for passive-aggressive with thanks.

grin

mrz Sun 20-Jan-13 17:59:17

she'll only eat them!

ShipwreckedAndComatose Sun 20-Jan-13 18:01:14

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Feenie Sun 20-Jan-13 18:02:44

grin grin @ mrz

mrz Sun 20-Jan-13 18:05:29

No trolls eat goats!

pointythings Netherlands Sun 20-Jan-13 18:05:45

Nah, the OP is a 42 inch flat screen tv.

<gets a bit sidetracked>

pointythings Netherlands Sun 20-Jan-13 18:06:26

<gives Feenie a detention for not trying>

ShipwreckedAndComatose Sun 20-Jan-13 18:07:14

Fair point!

Trolls get outwitted by goats though (they are not very bright wink)

mrz Sun 20-Jan-13 18:17:19

what really annoys me is that I can't remember what I said in my post that was deleted [grrr]

cumbrialass Sun 20-Jan-13 18:18:43

We're going to get moaned at for not taking the problem seriously enough, we clearly don't care for the children!

Feenie Sun 20-Jan-13 18:18:48

I would like to know too!

mrz Sun 20-Jan-13 18:23:49

I care about the children ...I just don't care for the OP

Strictly1 Sun 20-Jan-13 18:27:55

Well you've made me laugh as one of those ghastly, cheating teachers that you talk about! There are so many flaws in what you suggest, and no, you haven't hit a nerve. I work incredibly hard (as do many in all sorts of professions) and I teach my class as I hope my son is taught. I am yet to teach a class that are of the same level, and how would it be possible to achieve such a thing? Do I get the able to unlearn what they know? What a load of rubbish but hey ho, we are all entitled to our opinions.

yoyo123 Sun 20-Jan-13 18:28:40

rubbish!

sausagesandwich34 Sun 20-Jan-13 18:29:00

DDs english teacher

I think she is engaging, strict but fair and consistent, assess the children well and focuses on their weaker areas whilst still challenging them to further develop their strengths, has high expectations of her class and encourages every child to reach their full potential

my friend who also has a dd in the same class and with the same attainment level as my dd, thinks she is a jumped up cow who doesn't know what she is talking about

and that is why parent assessment will never work!

yoyo123 Sun 20-Jan-13 18:29:12

to the op that is....

richmal Sun 20-Jan-13 18:35:28

Having read many of the responses on this thread, I'm glad I decided to home educate.

mrz Sun 20-Jan-13 18:39:28

perhaps you could give the OP tips

Feenie Sun 20-Jan-13 18:55:23

Me too, richmal. wink

ShipwreckedAndComatose Sun 20-Jan-13 18:59:18

I do like it when everyone is happy smile

mrz Sun 20-Jan-13 19:02:34

I'm not happy that I can't remember what I had written

exoticfruits Sun 20-Jan-13 19:14:06

What utter rubbish OP!

Jux Sun 20-Jan-13 19:14:37

Oh fgs, twiggles.

I'm not a teacher, but am studying for my 3rd degree, and am not stupid.

Precisely how do you know this?

Your paragraphs are so boring and rambling and repetitive, and make you sound bonkers.

exoticfruits Sun 20-Jan-13 19:14:50

Some people get some very strange ideas.

sunshine401 Sun 20-Jan-13 19:26:27

sad
If you truly believe this then fine. But I'm afraid to write such a statement as "Fact" you do need to provide evidence. Do you have any?? If not It might be wise to not (in future rambles) say something is happening when you actually do not have a clue.

Feenie Sun 20-Jan-13 19:29:39

Or to provide links when airily chucking round assertions like 'Oh, it's on the news, honest.'

Labro Sun 20-Jan-13 19:31:09

Agree with sausagesandwich, I have had my fair share of fallings out with different teachers and their attitudes to ds, normally when they have made a comment in a report which I consider to be generalised or making ds out to be a problem when he's missed lessons due to illness etc, BUT as I've said before, I visit the teacher, if no resolution can be found then I ask to see deputy head and then the headmaster, in the same way I would ask to see the manager of a shop if the customer service was poor, but making huge generalisations about all schools and all teachers with an unquantified 'some' when you actually mean your own childs school means the credibility of your post fails completely

Labro Sun 20-Jan-13 19:34:44

Oh and please try to remember that teachers are human therefore also subject to human failings (such as feeling ill yet still trying to teach 30 six year olds) when others would give up.

thegreylady Sun 20-Jan-13 19:42:20

I have a 2i from lancaster university and a teaching qualification and 30 years teaching experience with pupils from 5 to 16 and teacher training experience and exam board experience and I have 2 dc,3sdc and 9dgs[just setting out qualifications].
I have never ever come across the behaviour described by twiggles and the idea of parents grading teachers is a joke.
Johnny didnt get an A grade-he would have done if it hadnt been for the cheating teacher-hmm
I cant be bothered with this nonsense but wanted to stand up and be counted.

ShipwreckedAndComatose Sun 20-Jan-13 19:42:39

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

sunshine401 Sun 20-Jan-13 19:44:55

http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/preschool/1120783-Nurseries-lying-about-development-to-look-good-for-Ofsted

Just to point out this was already started before guessing the OP did not get enough arguments so decided to try AIBU instead wink

ShipwreckedAndComatose Sun 20-Jan-13 19:45:42
learnandsay Sun 20-Jan-13 19:45:59

The argument that children who can read and write may struggle socially is what? Heh? (And anyone may struggle.) Children who are left handed may struggle. Then again they may not. It's a bit of a non argument really.

sunshine401 Sun 20-Jan-13 19:47:46

Thank you Ship I can never do that blush

ShipwreckedAndComatose Sun 20-Jan-13 19:48:54

smilewine

mrz Sun 20-Jan-13 19:54:28

Actually shipwrecked I'm pretty certain I didn't call the OP any of those things which is why I think MNHQ may be reading my mind and I've taken to wearing an aluminium foil hat wink

ShipwreckedAndComatose Sun 20-Jan-13 19:56:08

Photo of that!!!

mrz Sun 20-Jan-13 19:59:56
mrz Sun 20-Jan-13 20:02:15
teacherwith2kids Sun 20-Jan-13 20:06:08

[Heads for the kitchen drawer]

pointythings Netherlands Sun 20-Jan-13 20:14:26

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

mrz Sun 20-Jan-13 20:20:19

The OP posted on this subject in Jan 2011 and again in Jan 2012 and guess what ....Jan 2013 hears music

ShipwreckedAndComatose Sun 20-Jan-13 20:38:47

I think it would be a more flattering hat at a jaunty angle...

However, if MN is getting all ESP... <eyes kitchen drawer>

ShipwreckedAndComatose Sun 20-Jan-13 20:39:37

Yes, Mrz....it's a very very very odd thing to do!

Talk about holding a grudge.

FelicityWasCold Sun 20-Jan-13 20:43:41

She does this once a year every year? Odd.

In the words of Duncan Ballantyne 'Im out'

Labro Sun 20-Jan-13 20:46:10

And it was all nurseries in one borough then and is all schools nationwide now! Think op needs deleting from MN

snowybrrr Mon 21-Jan-13 08:46:06

Grading teachers is actually quite an interesting idea.In every other sector service providers ask for customer feedback , why are teachers exempt?

maizieD Mon 21-Jan-13 09:15:11

snowybrr.

If you'd read all of this very entertaining thread I think you would have found out that most schools do invite parental feedback. This is rather different from 'grading teachers'.

It's a bit early for a wine for the teachers who've posted here but thanks for the funnies! I was utterly shockshock to see mrz deleted. Wish she could remember what she said!

cory Mon 21-Jan-13 09:47:30

snowybrr, schools do invite their own parental feedback and Ofsted also ask for parental feedback which goes straight to them

twiggles Mon 21-Jan-13 13:50:19

snowybrr, that is a good question.

I have hit a raw nerve. There are clearly lots of teachers on this thread and site , maybe trying to gage what parents think of them? They appear not to like free speech and are lashing out at the call for teachers to be graded on a regular basis in an attempt to stop cheating at schools. Rather than lash out, it may create a better impression of the teaching profession, if you were to try and put your thoughts together to try and counteract the case for grading teachers. It appears that some teachers here have been unable to do the latter, so have resorted to lashing out instead, which suggests the case for grading teachers is powerful.

Feenie Mon 21-Jan-13 13:56:00

They appear not to like free speech and are lashing out at the call for teachers to be graded on a regular basis in an attempt to stop cheating at schools.

No lashing out, twiggles - just lots of taking the piss out of those who seem unable to construct even a wisp of a coherent argument. Everyone debated quite seriously until it became apparent that you could not, or would not, engage with anyone.

maisiejoe123 Mon 21-Jan-13 14:00:16

What on earth is twiggles talking about! Complete drivel!

twiggles Mon 21-Jan-13 14:01:52

Feedback needs to be standardised, frequent and impartial. Schools do not handle feedback in an independent manner and generally make everything sound as innocuous as possible, so that they look good for inspectors. Schools are not presenting a complete picture to inspectors. Why not use the free resource of parents to provide the missing link? Not through parents' associations, as they are often too closely linked to the teachers, but to each and every parent. Twenty or thirty pairs of parents in a class is a lot of people. Many hundreds of parents, even a thousand at some schools, is a powerful gage.

maisiejoe123 Mon 21-Jan-13 14:04:37

I am wondering - if you have an issue with YOUR school and YOUR child just go and sort it out. Methinks you have asked for something - havent got it and are trying to stir up the Mumsnet crew.

learnandsay Mon 21-Jan-13 14:05:21

The Paris mob in 1789 was a powerful gauge. But what is a merely populous group a powerful gauge of exactly?

lljkk Netherlands Mon 21-Jan-13 14:17:13

Oh great, let's get published gradings of teachers by parents, better yet, let's have anonymous websites where folk can post their own opinions of their children's teachers (explicitly named). Coz that system works very well and entirely objectively on Amazon and trip advisor, doesn't it? They are such reliable sources.

(Oh wait...)

Better yet, let's introduce another layer of bureaucracy and administators, coz we all want our taxes to go up, to have teaching performance reviews published and categorised (into grades if you will). Because that will really be a great use of taxpayer money. And lead to high levels of honesty between teachers and their line managers. (ironic smiley here)

Sorry, OP, I'm failing to get excited by your ideas (am not a teacher, only a parent).

Maybe if parents had to publish their real names next to their real comments about the real teachers. And then teachers or schools would have the right to reply. Because it would be so beneficial to children to have their private problems published, and so entertaining for everyone else to get to closely observe any disputes.

cory Mon 21-Jan-13 14:22:19

twiggles, a lot of us are not school teachers

I am a university lecturer and have absolutely no axe to grind: all my teaching is judged on student feedback which is recorded and has an impact on my career; I have no problem with that whatsoever.

however, there are two factors here:

a) school teachers already are monitored closely and parents do have the right to feedback- I have used it many times myself as a parent

b) when monitoring is done in any situation, questions need to be formulated so as to bring out constructive criticism, and in this particular case due care needs to be taken to the fact that some answers may not be guided by a genuine desire to improve the learning situation

unlike customers at a bank or students at a university, school children generally do not have a choice about attending school, and some may have negative attitudes that are not to do with the actual quality of the teaching

there are pupils (and parents) who actively dislike the idea of learning and whose rating of a teacher will be in an inverse proportion to how much learning goes on in her class

in my ds' case the definition of a bad teacher is one who forces him to work- he doesn't like it and is too immature to understand why it is good for him

if I listened to his opinions of which teachers are unfair or incompetent, my black list would contain all the most efficient teachers in the school

cory Mon 21-Jan-13 14:24:11

Add message | Report | Message poster twiggles Mon 21-Jan-13 14:01:52
"Feedback needs to be standardised, frequent and impartial. Schools do not handle feedback in an independent manner and generally make everything sound as innocuous as possible, so that they look good for inspectors."

The Ofsted feedback questionnaires handed out to parents are not handled by the school at all, but by independent Ofsted inspectors.

ipadquietly Mon 21-Jan-13 15:17:00

twiggles please listen to people.
Most schools send out an anonymous yearly questionnaire (paper or online), with comment section, to gauge parents' feelings about the school.

In our school, only about 20% of parents can generally be bothered to fill these in. However, all comments and ratings are addressed and (if appropriate) actioned by the SLT.

During an inspection, Ofsted advise parents to voice their opinions on parentview (on the Ofsted website) to rate the school. This is used as part of the inspection.

There are also various evil rateyourteacher /rateyourschool sites which invite hurtful remarks to be made about individuals, mainly by disaffected teenagers.

Do you have children at school, or are you just 'avin' a larf?

Elibean Mon 21-Jan-13 15:35:13

I am not a teacher.

But, twiggles, if you are speaking from your own experience - please try and understand your experience is not the norm.

I am a governor at a school, and there is no way on earth that an able child - or any child - would be held back. Its all about the children. No one, not the SLT nor any of the teachers, care that much about OFSTED that they'd put 'ratings' in front of what they think is right for a child.

I sit on courses with many, many other school governors from across this (leafy) borough. I meet the SLTeams, I talk to teachers, and of course (as a parent) I talk to parents.

There may be one or two dreadful examples of the sort that you mention, but tarring 'most' schools or even 'many' schools, or teachers, with that kind of brush is just wrong.

Elibean Mon 21-Jan-13 15:37:42

And, incidentally, as teachers' morale is (so I'm reliably informed by senior educationalists) at an all time low, I think it is probably worse than 'wrong'.

Teachers are being 'graded' all the time. In, sometimes, quite odd ways. Enough.

mrz Mon 21-Jan-13 16:28:16

twiggles pops up every January to post the same moan ... I just wonder where she is locked up the rest of the year

CecilyP Mon 21-Jan-13 16:37:41

Maybe it's her New Year's resolution which she doesn't manage to sustain until February.

Feenie Mon 21-Jan-13 17:14:17

Hello, hello, earth to OP - OP, are you listening at all, to anyone? confused

Why not use the free resource of parents to provide the missing link?

For all the reasons everyone has already told you, but which you have totally ignored.

Maybe the OP can only see her own posts - maybe MN have her posting to herself? grin

mrz Mon 21-Jan-13 17:16:50

So the OP isn't a stupid troll just a stupid alien confused

ShipwreckedAndComatose Mon 21-Jan-13 17:36:27

Please op, don't let facts get in the way of a good conspiracy theory, eh??

You appear not to be prepared to back up any of your accusations with facts and are ignoring arguments against you as 'hitting a nerve' confused

With freedom of speech comes a responsibility about what you say.

Jux Mon 21-Jan-13 17:40:35

OP, I am not a teacher, never was, never will be. Nor am I related to any teachers, nor are any of my friends teachers.

I ask again:

What is your evidence for this?

Jux Mon 21-Jan-13 17:42:16

Perhaps if you answered people's questions, they would take you a little more seriously, and then your crusade might achieve something; instead you choose to act like a nutter once a year.

pointythings Netherlands Mon 21-Jan-13 18:00:28

I got deleted a second time for mentioning heavy duty tinfoil?

WTAF???

OP - Evidence. Links Research. Please.

mrz Mon 21-Jan-13 18:04:13

and I got away with calling her barking mad grin in the light of her brief yearly appearances I will revise that opinion to howling mad

pointythings Netherlands Mon 21-Jan-13 18:06:40

I wonder whether the OP is reporting me?

<feels honoured at getting personal attention>

And me not even a teacher!

<settles down to wait>

For links, evidence and future deletions, that is.

ShipwreckedAndComatose Mon 21-Jan-13 18:07:12

I got deleted for listing all the possible things that Mrz could have said about op in her deleted post because she couldn't remember what it was she had said!

grin

ShipwreckedAndComatose Mon 21-Jan-13 18:08:06

First ever deletion! EVER!

<polishes shiny badge>

PessimisticMissPiggy Mon 21-Jan-13 18:08:06

Er, evidence please.

ShipwreckedAndComatose Mon 21-Jan-13 18:09:16

Yes, yes!!

We want evidence!

literally, I will believe you if you provide me with decent, supported evidence.

bk1981 Mon 21-Jan-13 18:10:00

OP what you are claiming is at best innacurate. Teachers do not get 'praised' by inspectors for having all children in their class at the same level. They want to see differentiation, they want to see gifted and talented children, and they want to see provision being made for these children! Where did you get this information from?

mrz Mon 21-Jan-13 18:13:42

I still can't remember what I wrote that warranted deletion [indignant] but obviously the OP agrees with what I said later grin

pointythings Netherlands Mon 21-Jan-13 18:17:21

Shipwrecked I got two in the space of 24 hours!
<proud>
<stamps foot and demands badge>

<and some evidence>

ShipwreckedAndComatose Mon 21-Jan-13 18:19:07

Pointy, you deserve a shiny cup for two!!

(It's full of red wine, hole that's ok)

wine

ShipwreckedAndComatose Mon 21-Jan-13 18:19:24

'Hope'

ShipwreckedAndComatose Mon 21-Jan-13 18:20:22

I think we all agree with you mrz grin

Feenie Mon 21-Jan-13 18:22:58

Apart from maybe snowybrr - fgs, read the thread before you comment, woman!

pointythings Netherlands Mon 21-Jan-13 18:26:55

Thanks, Shipwrecked

<takes big slurp>
<brings out the cheese>

mrz Mon 21-Jan-13 18:39:03

It's not fair [sulks] I tried really hard and only managed ONE!

pointythings Netherlands Mon 21-Jan-13 18:43:56

If I reported you, would that be cheating, mrz? grin

mrz Mon 21-Jan-13 18:51:30

of course NOT! grin

ShipwreckedAndComatose Mon 21-Jan-13 18:52:31

Who would ever know wink

mrz Mon 21-Jan-13 18:58:02

only us ...unless someone tells!

mrz Mon 21-Jan-13 18:59:38

it wouldn't really be "cheating"

pointythings Netherlands Mon 21-Jan-13 19:18:10

But now that we've discussed it, I don't think MN Towers would fall for it... sad

mrz Mon 21-Jan-13 19:27:05

oh!

ShipwreckedAndComatose Mon 21-Jan-13 19:57:00

I for one won't report anything you type Mrz!!!!

maybe that will fool them

mrz Mon 21-Jan-13 20:30:55

wink

SavoirFaire Mon 21-Jan-13 22:45:48

I realise I'm pitching in after the conversation has rolled over here... But anyway, I was shocked on a recent opening morning for an outstanding, massively oversubscribed and sought after primary in my neck of the woods which we have no hope getting in to that the head basically said that he believes other schools do this. I.e. that they mark children down lower down the school, so that they can show large value adds higher up.

As it happens, I think this is bullsh... and is him trying to justify why his outstanding, massively oversubscribed and sought after primary, which also just happens to be smack bang in the middle of a very affluent area, has good overall KS2 results but pretty poor value add score in comparison with the other schools in the area....

ipadquietly Mon 21-Jan-13 23:00:06

It happens savoir.

Lies, damned lies and statistics.

Arisbottle Mon 21-Jan-13 23:15:43

I started my teaching career in a school that would make most Mumsnetters run for the hills - or at least the nearest naice church school. It has fantastic value added because the primary schools that fed into us were awful, so it was not particularly difficult to add value. The secondary school in question tended to keep quiet about the exact reasons for its outstanding value added score which was often splashed across every proespectus and website page

As a secondary teacher I know that teachers can be hesitant to award a high level for an assessed piece of work or in an official report if they think it will make it difficult to sustain progress either that year or the following year.

Level,ing in many subject can be quite subjective anyway.

Arisbottle Mon 21-Jan-13 23:17:25

Savior I teach in a secondary school in a relativey affluent area that is rated outstanding and our value added score can be lower than other schools because out feeder schools do such a good job. The reverse of my previous ISP really,

richmal Tue 22-Jan-13 08:24:35

I do not agree with more assessment of teachers. I think their job of teaching 30+ children in a class is hard enough. However, their judgement is subjective. If as a parent I assess my child differently from them, there should be some independent test available whereby it can be seen who is right. This should not include the sentence, "We only test them up to this level".

There could be then no consiracy theory of the more able being under assessed.

I've actually had my child start school on a lower grade than her previous school until I pointed out she had actually pssed a SATS test at the higher grade.

twiggles Tue 22-Jan-13 15:51:39

Some teachers admit they start off very low, so it looks as if they're the great and talented responsible for all of a child's progress! Such teachers don't appear to take the regime seriously and will do whatever they can to make themselves and their school shine out in inspections, even if they know that what they say has little basis in reality. The cheating needs to be stopped. If any teacher or school is caught cheating, a fine could be levied on the teacher and the school in question.

JustinMumsnot Tue 22-Jan-13 15:53:44

Twiggles sweetie. Any chance of some of that, you know, evidence stuff to back up your assertions here?

Some teachers prefer to set secure levels, rather than low levels.

What you say is happening may happen, from time to time, but it's certainly not widespread by any means.

richmal Tue 22-Jan-13 16:51:38

If a parent thought their child were being under assessed, rather than assessing the teacher why not assess the child with an independenetly marked test. Until such time as this happens, there is no evidence one way or another as to whether children are being under assessed or not.

Surely both sides would welcome this as it provides the evidence needed.

ShipwreckedAndComatose Tue 22-Jan-13 16:56:16

Twiggles, please could you not just repeat your assertions over and over again.

It would be more helpful to move the discussion along with evidence

Otherwise, what is the point of posting?

pointythings Netherlands Tue 22-Jan-13 18:18:54

Well, anecdotes aren't evidence, but my DD2 was levelled at 5c in reading and writing at the end of Yr4, and the school most certainly knows that this is setting themselves quite a task if they're to demonstrate continuing progress - but they did it anyway, because they feel that's the level she was.

So I'd really like to see some research evidence to show that this marking down conspiracy actually exists...

richmal Tue 22-Jan-13 18:43:09

So my suggestion of independent tests would be welcomed by teachers to prove what level a child is? The word of one person against another is not evidence either way.

JustinMumsnot Tue 22-Jan-13 18:47:19

You don't need independent tests to prove what level a child is. The system currently in place is sufficiently robust.

Feenie Tue 22-Jan-13 18:49:13

Because a test can only ever provide a very narrow snapshot, that's why, richmal.

You should never, ever be told, however, that 'we only test up to this level'. There is no ceiling on levels at KS1 or KS2.

mrz Tue 22-Jan-13 18:50:11

You do realise levels are already externally moderate at the end of each Key Stage (reception, Y2 & Y6) don't you richmal?

Feenie Tue 22-Jan-13 18:51:32

Anyone judging teachers' judgements (Ofsted, senior management, colleagues moderating, the LEA, etc) requires a great deal of secure evidence to 'prove' judgements - one narrow test is not evidence, and would be frowned upon.

Feenie Tue 22-Jan-13 18:52:50

Our LEA moderates EYFS judgements in Reception too.

richmal Tue 22-Jan-13 19:04:50

But while schools are judged on value added, it is also open to accusations of more able children not being marked as high as they should.

MRZ, it's four years between years 2 and 6. Also, I thought teacher assessment was part of the grades.

If a parent insists their child is at one level and the school thinks they are another, why in such cases could it not go to an independent moderator? Such a system would stop any accusations of lower level grades being given. Knowing such a test were there would also deter any parents making unrealistic claims and would add to the confidence of the system.

pointythings Netherlands Tue 22-Jan-13 19:10:32

richmal if I were a parent in disagreement with the teacher I would not want to 'prove my point' by making my child sit a test. Any moderation (and I am pretty hmm about the idea in the first place, given successive SAT marking fiascos) should only look at the child's work, not make them sit another (snapshot) test.

And many schools already carry out benchmarking, where a child's work is levelled by a teacher who does not know the child.

mrz Tue 22-Jan-13 19:13:14

National curriculum levels are only reported in Y2 and Y6 in other years groups assessment is internal and doesn't contribute to value added.

If I insisted to the doctor I had mumps and he said it was measles who is best qualified to know?

richmal Tue 22-Jan-13 19:26:59

If a child is only taught KS2 at school, what evidence would the teacher have that they can do KS3?

learnandsay Tue 22-Jan-13 19:32:01

Doctors get diagnoses wrong all the time. Luckily most of the time it's not serious. But cancer in the UK is frequently appallingly diagnosed (as was the case with my father. He was eventually diagnosed in France!)

mrz Tue 22-Jan-13 19:34:44

Levels are reported to the DfE and LEA and each child has a unique admissions number so all information about levels at the end of each KS is available. (KS3 is age 14)

mrz Tue 22-Jan-13 19:36:48

and patients often misdiagnose themselves believing they know more than the professionals who have undergone many years of training

pointythings Netherlands Tue 22-Jan-13 19:38:52

richmal the levels overlap. It's perfectly possible for a child to get L6 at the end of KS2. In fact most children of MNers do grin. L6 is broadly the expected level at the end of KS3. So clearly the KS3 curriculum is being taught to able children even though they are still in KS2 age-wise. Some children may go higher, though national tests aren't geared to measure this - but teachers are able to assess this and teach accordingly.

On the whole teachers in good schools will tell parents where their children are in terms of progress through the NC on a regular basis.

41notTrendy Tue 22-Jan-13 19:55:56

Are we still going with this?
Twiggles, any evidence yet?
Richmal, children are continually assessed, and a lot of time and training goes into making sure those assessments are accurate. Apart from the mythical teachers the batty OP seems to think exist, teachers need and value accurate assessment data in order to do their job.

theschoolbreakfastclub Tue 22-Jan-13 20:56:02

Well I'm piling in here because although perhaps the OP hasn't said this in the best way, I do believe this sort of thing goes on in my dc's school. The sort of thing richmal is talking about with children assessed only up to a certain level and especially in maths, not being given a chance to show what they really can do. Or if they are tested higher the head asks the teachers to cap levels. So in year 1 it was maybe to 2c and then 3c in year 2. Then of course magically the cap disappears in year 6 although I don't think they do level 6.

Why does this matter? Because year after year the brightest children's starting point is underestimated and then what they are taught is limited so although it looks like they make progress from say 3c to 3a, in reality they were a 3b or 3a at the start of that year!

teacherwith2kids Tue 22-Jan-13 20:59:06

Then, TSBC, take it up with your individual school. As earlier advice to the OP said - this is a weakness in her children's school, not a nationwide conspiracy. Solve the small local problem effectively, rather than creating unwieldy national conspiracy theories.

Feenie Tue 22-Jan-13 21:08:53

So in year 1 it was maybe to 2c and then 3c in year 2.

But the Y2 one would be moderated by the LEA. ANd your 3c example doesn't stack up at all - a 3 would have to convert to a 5 in Y6 to show just adequate progress, and you said your school hasn't entered any children for level 6 to date.

So said Headteacher would have shot himself in the foot by capping a 3c. It woudn't happen.

theschoolbreakfastclub Tue 22-Jan-13 21:25:22

I do agree with you teacherwith2kids. I think the OP made sweeping generalisations based on one school and it is unfair on the majority of teachers/ schools.

I did however want to show that it does seem to go on.

Feenie, what if they hadn't covered more than that in class in numeracy though? I can see the moderators would be able to see if levels had been over-cooked but what about a hypothetical child who is working at level4 (note mine wasn't but just say...) at the end of year 2 at home but their teacher never touches on that material at school so there is no evidence of it?
I can also see that scenario couldn't happen with writing being moderated.

I don't understand your L5/6 point - please can you clarify it? I imagine our school does not do L6 because it hasn't got the resources/ inclination to teach that far. It does not seem to value challenging the top few children in a class. Level 5 would be seen as enough even if some were capable of more. That last bit is based on conjecture and general experience not firm evidence/ experience of year 6 as not got that far yet.

mrz Tue 22-Jan-13 21:31:40

I can see what some schools might gain by underestimating a child's level but they have nothing to gain by restricting learning if they want to show good progress.

richmal Tue 22-Jan-13 21:37:56

Every year I've had a word with teachers ask for harder work for dd, to be told she was already being given work to her level. I knew what my dd was capable of. I'm not alone in this experience. If she were allowed to sit an independent test we would all have had a clear indication of her abilities. I can't see why tests are so unreliable. Either a 10 year old can solve simulaneuos equations or they can't. That and all the rest of KS3 cannot be a sudden fluke guess on the day of the test. If tests are so unreliable why do GCSEs involve exams? Especially on maths, tests are very reliable.

mrz Tue 22-Jan-13 21:44:24

A test doesn't show a child's capabilities it only shows what a child can do at a given time answering about sections of the curriculum. It would be impossible to include everything a child needs to know in a single test. Maths tests in particular select a number of concepts to test.

Feenie Tue 22-Jan-13 21:54:20

tsbc - schools have to ensure children make two levels progress between Y2 and Y6; this is judged as satisfactory progress.

A child achieving 3c in your example would have to reach level 5 in Y6.

To make good progress, the child would have to achieve level 6 - which doesn't happen in your school.

So what would a Head have to gain from capping at 3c?

richmal Tue 22-Jan-13 21:54:43

MRZ, tests pick out a random cross section of the curriculum. It would be highly improbalble that a child would have learnt only the concepts which happened to be selected on the test.

Feenie Tue 22-Jan-13 21:57:36

As mrz says, schools have nothing to gain by stopping a child from achieving anything - if a child really is level 4 in Y2, that would make them absolutely exceptional and most teachers and schools would be delighted.

Schools are judged by Ofsted on how well they stretch more able children.

Feenie Tue 22-Jan-13 21:59:22

That happens more than you would think - Y6 pupils who scrape a level in a test, for example, only to arrive at secondary not performing anywhere near that level.

Teacher assessment is more thorough, reliable, and requires much more evidence, and sources of evdience.

mrz Tue 22-Jan-13 21:59:39

I disagree children have strengths and weaknesses and it is quite possible that a child is very good at calculation but struggles with problem solving or are secure with geometry but have difficulty with algebra. It is more than possible for a child to pick up enough marks by focusing on their strong areas to achieve level x when the teachers knows they aren't secure in all aspects required.

theschoolbreakfastclub Wed 23-Jan-13 10:03:04

That makes sense Mrz.
I'm still convinced that a few teachers/ schools don't want to/ can't teach above a certain level and artificially keep starting points lower in ks1 so as to show more VA in ks2.

richmal Wed 23-Jan-13 11:07:24

I'm not saying tests are perfect, but if there is a disagreement in what the parents and techers assess a child's level to be, they would at least be a starting point. Every assessment could be flawed, even teacher assessment especially with over 30 children to keep track of in one class.

It could at least give an indication that further assessment is needed and provide the evidence that able children are not being overlooked.

ShipwreckedAndComatose Wed 23-Jan-13 17:39:17

My issue with tests is that it encourages some teachers to teach to the test rather than teach a clear understanding of a concept.

Tests are not perfect (see current fuss over GCSE exams)
teacher assessment allows for a more thorough assessment of a pupils understanding over a longer period of time and in different scenarios.

mrz Wed 23-Jan-13 17:39:27

How would it be a starting point? The teacher works with the child every day and knows what they are capable of doing on every aspect needed to gain a secure NC level whereas a test only includes some aspects and it is possible to pass that test by correctly answering questions on some of those aspects hmm

ShipwreckedAndComatose Wed 23-Jan-13 17:45:45

Rich mail, I think you would be surprised by just how much a primary school teacher knows about their pupils and what they can do.

I am impressed by the depth of their knowledge and it comes through what they do in the class each and every day

ShipwreckedAndComatose Wed 23-Jan-13 17:46:28

Sorry 'richmal' flipping corrective text

Feenie Wed 23-Jan-13 17:47:04

With respect, richmal, the mere fact that you think a test would sort it shows a huge lack of understanding of just how thorough teacher assessment has to be.

pointythings Netherlands Wed 23-Jan-13 18:26:19

I agree with those who doubt the value of tests. I've seen with my own eyes that my DD2's teachers know far more about what she can and can't do in certain specific areas than I do. They see her work every day, they have access to her workbooks and see her progress on a continuous basis. At parents' evenings I get an insight into what she does and I am amazed - both at what she can do (which she downplays at home) and at the depth of concrete and constructive feedback she gets in order to move her forwards.

A test can't deliver that depth of knowledge. Where there is a dispute about levels, I would far rather have the child's body of work assessed by a professional teacher who does not know the child (someone from another school, who therefore has no reason to cheat as they do not benefit from that child's levels) than put the child through a snapshot test. Of course putting a structure in place to manage this would be very costly - but then so would testing be.

Ultimately I think parents should sort these things out between themselves and the school - if necessary, by leaving and seeking another school for their child. A school which genuinely caps children's achievements and can't be bothered to support those who need it and extend those who are able is not worth its salt and will ultimately be caught out. However, despite the amount of teacher bashing negative propaganda coming out of our current government, I find it very difficult to believe that the education system is rife with these schools.

twiggles Thu 24-Jan-13 13:39:35

It's time to fine cheats and grade teachers...in regards to tests....some teachers and schools have been cheating in exams - tests...there's been plenty of talk about it in the media recently. Punishing children with more tests because teachers or schools are cheating isn't appropriate and won't solve the problem. What if they cheat? What would make a difference, is fining teachers and schools that are cheating. Teachers who say they know nothing about cheating shouldn't object to fines, because if no teachers and schools are cheating, the fine won't be used. And grading teachers from the bottom up is the only way forward. Just because some teachers might be afraid of what people might say is no reason not to do it. The bottom up approach is free. It gives access to the huge resource of parents whose children go to school. It's time to take the bull by the horns and go for it.

ilikenoodles Thu 24-Jan-13 13:47:15

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Snorbs Thu 24-Jan-13 14:29:56

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Feenie Thu 24-Jan-13 15:54:27

some teachers and schools have been cheating in exams - tests...there's been plenty of talk about it in the media recently

Where? Go on, show us this 'plenty of talk', go on. Any links? At all?

Feenie Thu 24-Jan-13 15:56:18

And grading teachers from the bottom up is the only way forward.

Which bit of 'we are already graded' do you not get?

Who are you talking to? Because you aren't addressing anyone on this thread.

Lifeisontheup Thu 24-Jan-13 16:04:15

I really couldn't be bothered with grading teachers every term or even every year, I have quite enough to do with my own job and with bringing my children up when they're not at school to waste time with this.
It would be yet another thing which would get but on the 'should do but probably won't' pile in our house.

ShipwreckedAndComatose Thu 24-Jan-13 16:37:25

It's time to fine cheats and grade teachers...in regards to tests....some teachers and schools have been cheating in exams - tests...there's been plenty of talk about it in the media recently

Is this your 'evidence'?? confused
I read a great deal in the media but that doesn't mean it's all true.

Can we have proper supporting evidence? As a scientist, I find its essential in forming conclusions

mrz Thu 24-Jan-13 17:01:48

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

pointythings Netherlands Thu 24-Jan-13 18:05:36

<howls at the moon>

Hi, twiggles.

How about some nice links? As in, er, evidence? Pretty please?

mrz are you going for your second gong then? grin

mrz Thu 24-Jan-13 18:12:38

I may as well be deleted for something I remember writing grin

CorruptWalnut Thu 24-Jan-13 19:17:54

I'm a regular reader on MN but not a poster really, but this post is inspiring me. I've already seen that Twiggles doesn't like to answer questions, but I'll try for a laugh. Here goes:-

1) Could you please quantify "some" when you say things like "some schools" and "some teachers".

2) Does this cheating occur country wide, or just your locality? (please give evidence/links with your answer for this).

3) What research are you basing your statement on that parents are better placed to educate children than teachers "because they know their child better"? Surely if this was true then all teaching jobs and mandatory schooling would have been scrapped by now.

I'm going leave it at just 3 questions so as not to cause you too much confusion.

Thanks in anticipation of your much awaited responses.

cory Thu 24-Jan-13 19:36:54

When my children were at primary school, I sometimes thought teachers graded their achievements lower than was consistent with what I knew they could do. Then I realised I was looking at what they might have done once, at home, in a 1:1 setting and no distractions, and possibly with more than a little subconscious prompting from me. The teachers were looking for skills and knowledge that were firm enough to be produced regularly and with confidence.

twiggles Fri 25-Jan-13 12:18:57

There are clearly some teachers on this thread. Some don't seem to hold parents in high esteem. Some do not seem to trust the views of children they teach. The latter suggests some teachers may hold themselves on a pedestal. School is a compulsory service that teachers provide for children. There is no excuse for any teacher to think they are above those that are providing a job for them. It sounds like some teachers would benefit from showing greater respect to both the parents and the children they teach. Teachers would more easily be kept on their toes if parents in every class grade their teacher every term. Fines for any teacher cheating could act as a useful deterrent.

cory Fri 25-Jan-13 13:56:44

A lot of us are not teachers- as we keep pointing out! I speak entirely as a parent.

As for trusting the views of the children, my slightly detached idea is based on the numerous times my dd has come home and claimed that a teacher is unfair or horrible- and the next week she is the best teacher in the world and dd hotly denies ever having said anything different.

I would also add that I hope dc's teachers do not believe everything they tell about me. wink

Of course, teachers should listen to parents- and ime they generally do. But not to every parent, all the time. Most schools sadly can show examples of parents who turn up and threaten violence if their child is told off for disrupting the class. Is it reasonable that a teacher's career should hang on the word of these parents? And if not, how do you tell them apart from the saner ones?

If there is a disagreement between my child and a teacher serious enough to require my involvement, I would go in with an open mind and listen to both sides, not rush to rubbish the teacher on a website.

Snorbs Fri 25-Jan-13 14:02:52

Yoohoo!!! Twiggles!!! Over here!!!

Quick thing - these news reports. Any links yet? No?

How utterly bizarre.

Feenie Fri 25-Jan-13 14:24:46

There are clearly some teachers on this thread. Some don't seem to hold parents in high esteem

Really? I can't see any who don't. Evidence please - come on, you don't even have to google this time. Have a try, do. wink

Some do not seem to trust the views of children they teach. The latter suggests some teachers may hold themselves on a pedestal.

Strange link you've made there. I don't think one correlates to the other.

It sounds like some teachers would benefit from showing greater respect to both the parents and the children they teach

That's a bit rich, given that you have so little respect for any poster on this thread that you refuse to answer.

Again - just who are you talking to? You won't engage with any poster's questions, so who exactly do you think your audience is? confused confused

ShipwreckedAndComatose Fri 25-Jan-13 16:02:16

Which posts suggest any of that?? confused

I see we are in a pattern of dropping in every day to say something randomly insulting about teachers... hmm

Feenie Fri 25-Jan-13 16:39:09

Which, bizarrely, is permissable because she is insulting a group.

But we can't be as rude or as ignorant back to her without getting deleted. hmm

mrz Fri 25-Jan-13 16:41:36

Actually twiggles it's only you we don't hold in high esteem (or even low esteem) as you clearly have your own axe to grind (as well as rising from the dead every January to repeat your unfounded ramblings) ...barking!

ShipwreckedAndComatose Fri 25-Jan-13 16:45:52

That's exactly the irony I spotted, Feenie!

Totally, mrz!

Jux Fri 25-Jan-13 17:11:59

OH MY GOD! Has the barking one op still not produced any evidence, or even a little link?

OP, as far as I know, I'm still not a teacher. I thought that I might have magically qualified since my post of the 20th at 19:14, but it appears not sad. On the bright side, it means that you can furnish me with evidence of your assertions with impugnity. You can guarantee that I am not a member of the descried profession and therefore have no personal axe to grind, merely reasonable concern that my daughter may be subject to the vagaries of the professionals to whom I (perhaps mistakenly) entrust her each week day.

Please help me make a rational decision about my child's future. I beg you, op, please do not be instrumental in leaving my child flailing in the wilderness.

ShipwreckedAndComatose Fri 25-Jan-13 17:30:04

grin

<hands Jux a paper bag to breathe into>

pointythings Netherlands Fri 25-Jan-13 17:35:31

<rolls on the floor laughing>

I've never seen such a funny annual zombie. This thread is making my week. Will we make it to 1000 posts - still without any links or evidence?

I especially love the 'compulsory service' bit - as if teachers go into the profession kicking and screaming, are chained to their classrooms for the duration and must be compelled to do their job at every time because they hate children and want to put them down at every turn to make themselves look good.

Whereas of course they tend to go into the profession because they want to bring out the potential of children and young people, and in the process of doing so put up with lack of resources, tricky parents, children with a range of needs, gifts and talents, paranoid scrutiny from the Idiot Gove and of course the OP herself.

Teachers deserve thanks for everything they cope with.

mrz Fri 25-Jan-13 17:42:51

The OP makes Gove sound quite rational

HecateWhoopass Fri 25-Jan-13 17:47:48

Present your evidence to the papers. They would love a story like this.

I have read all your posts and can't seem to find where you say how you know all this, what your evidence is, etc. How can you prove that what you are saying is true?

And no. I am not a teacher.

I am just interested in evidence.

pointythings Netherlands Fri 25-Jan-13 17:55:07

Good point, mrz. Which is quite scary, really.

mrz Fri 25-Jan-13 17:56:55

or perhaps the OP is Mr Gove hmm

Feenie Fri 25-Jan-13 18:00:04

Had crossed my mind, given the ignoring of anyone at all with a sensible opinion.

ShipwreckedAndComatose Fri 25-Jan-13 18:00:31

grin

Feenie Fri 25-Jan-13 18:00:35

Stark similarities there.

teacherwith2kids Fri 25-Jan-13 18:08:34

I have also wondered whether twiggles is a random sentence generator - a computer programme, triggered by date, which produces seemingly coherent sentences but which of course has no feedback loop in to respond to the posts of others....

Feenie Fri 25-Jan-13 18:11:47

By Gove, I think she's got it! grin

mrz Fri 25-Jan-13 18:13:26

Perhaps Gove too is a random sentence generator it would explain some of his daft pronouncements. hmm

Feenie Fri 25-Jan-13 18:22:50

grin

ShipwreckedAndComatose Fri 25-Jan-13 19:45:00

No, his is a random nonsense generator..

Jux Fri 25-Jan-13 20:46:16

Teacher, I was thinking that, too. What fun!

Meeknmild Sat 26-Jan-13 14:50:40

Imho teachers should be left to teach, they are the experts, not parents!! Parents need to support the teachers - of course there are bad 'uns but that goes for all walks of life! I have the utmost respect for all they do, a lot of parents haven't got the foggiest as to what goes on behind the scenes. As for parents grading teachers ... um, I don't think that would work, do you??!! I can just imagine some of the comments ...

twiggles Mon 28-Jan-13 11:56:57

It's clear that some teachers on this thread underestimate those for whom they are providing a service. Imagine if a hotel had to disregard all those it was providing a service for and seek grading from staff they work only with or from a conglomerate only. Those who know most are those who use the service regularly and they are independent of the industry. Parents are the best resource we have. The question here is why do some teachers fear what their providers of a job will say about them. Letting Parents grade teachers could help to spot the best and the worst. That kind of gauge could be like gold dust. And it's free.

learnandsay Mon 28-Jan-13 12:06:19

Because parents don't use the school; children do.

CecilyP Mon 28-Jan-13 12:09:45

How are they going to do that? Parents are not really the service user, are they; the children are. Unless you propose that up to 60 parents join their children in the classroom so that they can grade the teachers based on first hand, rather than second hand, experience. Might become a little overcrowded!

learnandsay Mon 28-Jan-13 12:18:48

Even if parents did sit in classrooms they still wouldn't be able to grade the teachers because parents know most of the stuff already and teaching is about teaching things you don't already know. So parents still wouldn't be able to judge whether the teachers were teaching effectively or not.

The only solution would be to have the teachers teach the parents things they don't already know like how to write anti virus software and how to speak Mandarin Chinese.

twiggles Mon 28-Jan-13 12:26:22

Parents interact with the teachers and parents interact with their children. Parents are independent and their knowledge could be tapped at no cost. It's a vast resource and a free resource that could change schools for the better.

cory Mon 28-Jan-13 12:35:26

twiggles Mon 28-Jan-13 11:56:57
"It's clear that some teachers on this thread underestimate those for whom they are providing a service. Imagine if a hotel had to disregard all those it was providing a service for and seek grading from staff they work only with or from a conglomerate only. Those who know most are those who use the service regularly and they are independent of the industry. Parents are the best resource we have. The question here is why do some teachers fear what their providers of a job will say about them. Letting Parents grade teachers could help to spot the best and the worst. That kind of gauge could be like gold dust. And it's free."

Read my lips: Ofsted do ask for the views of parents and incorporate those into their reports; it is part of the inspection process and totally independent of the school.

Schools commonly also have their own questionnaires.

I know this because I am- not a teacher but a parent.

How many times do we have to repeat it.

Ronaldo Mon 28-Jan-13 12:36:22

Whilst I wont say its deliberate cheating or just plain ignorance and labelling I have to admit what the OP said strikes a chord with me. I recall an " assessment" being made of my DS where we were told he was lacking. It turned out they hadquestioned himabout football as part of this assessment and he was found wanting - so they could improve him was it?

Of course he knew nothing about football , neither doI! Ask about cricket or better still ice hockey , basket ball or baseball and he was your man. My DS also turned up able to read and write but it seems the school needed to denegrate this on order to justify themselves. he couldstill read and write though.

I took my DS out of the school

ShipwreckedAndComatose Mon 28-Jan-13 17:12:29

Blimey, it's like Groundhog Day in here hmm

pointythings Netherlands Mon 28-Jan-13 18:06:49

Ronaldo what was the assessment on? I very much doubt it was about football, far more likely it was about speaking and listening - in which case the topic really doesn't matter much, it's about use of vocabulary, fluency, and yes - ability to continue a conversation even if the subject is not one you're expert on.

And I'm sorry if the school did not differentiate appropriately for your DS - but this is very much not the norm. There are plenty of posters on here who will testify to the contrary.

Oh twiggles - if you aren't a computer of some sort - can you *please provide us with evidence? Links? Anything that isn't an indigestible regurgitation of your previous posts?

Snorbs Mon 28-Jan-13 18:52:28

twiggles why don't you just stop beating around the bush.

What you want is to be able to get your PFB's teacher sacked if he/she doesn't agree with you that PFB is a genius.

That's why you're not answering questions about evidence because it's not about evidence, it's about you being outraged that no-one else can see just how special PFB is.

Lifeisontheup Mon 28-Jan-13 22:12:36

Parents are NOT independent, they are the most biased people- for their children, it's perfectly natural to be so.
A perfectly ridiculous statement, OP.

EduCated Bosnia-Herzegovina Mon 28-Jan-13 22:40:06

TEACHERS ARE INDEPENDENTLY GRADED BY OFSTED

YOU HAVE NOT GIVEN ANY EVIDENCE TO BACK THIS UP WHATSOEVER

PARENTS VIEWS FORM PART OF OFSTED REPORTS

Just on case you missed those points...

marcopront Costa Rica Tue 29-Jan-13 01:23:16

This is probably a stupid question but

What is the connection between parents grading teachers and teachers grading students wrongly?

and a follow up

If the teachers cheat who is to say the parents won't?

twiggles Tue 29-Jan-13 11:50:58

I'm aware of what's in place and what isn't. And it's put here that all teachers would benefit from being graded by parents on a termly basis in order to keep teachers on their toes and discourage them from cheating. if not graded termly, then at the end of every academic year. That would help spot good teachers, not only sift out the not so good teachers. If you're one of the teachers that fear being graded by parents and their pupils, the reason may be because you fear what they might say. That's no reason not to do it. If the bull's taken by the horns, there's some hope of taming it. Change is rarely comfortable, but without it we would get nowhere.

Snorbs Tue 29-Jan-13 11:57:56

Twiggles I bet you're an absolute blast at parties.

"Twiggles, do you want a drink?"
"Teachers cheat and we should be able to sack the bastards!"
"Twiggles that's as may be, but what would you like to drink?"
"Teachers cheat!"
"Um, ok. Let's forget the drinks for a moment. Why do you think teachers cheat?"
"Teachers cheat and we should be able to sack the bastards!"
"If you say so Twiggles. Seems a bit of a hassle for little benefit."
"The only people against this are scared teachers!"
"Twiggles I am sorry but I've just remembered that I've left the iron on. Must dash!"

marcopront Costa Rica Tue 29-Jan-13 12:34:49

Twiggles at the risk of repeating myself please can you explain to me, how will you as parent, grading me a teacher stop me from giving your child the wrong assessment. I am only a teacher and don't have the benefit of your wisdom.

Feenie Tue 29-Jan-13 13:14:14

Twiggles, may I just say you are a shining example of why your own suggestion should never, ever come to fruition, and you provide all of the reasons of why it should not.

Beautifully illustrated - well done! thanks

clam Tue 29-Jan-13 14:00:41

I've dipped in and out of this thread over the last week or two - couldn't be arsed to engage. Not worth risking chipping my manicure for. grin

How you doing, feenie teachers and mrz et al?

Mind you, is it worth me asking the OP how I'd be graded this term, seeing as how I'm one of those skiving bastards teachers who's not been even in the classroom this term, as I've bust my leg. How likely, graded on a 1-10 basis, is it I'd get an answer?

twiggles Tue 29-Jan-13 15:27:58

The type of language some teachers on this thread use, hopefully doesn't reflect the type of language they use in the classroom. The suggestion of parents grading teachers may not be your cup of tea, if you're a teacher who is fearful of what might be said about you, but some will see the logic. Change is rarely comfortable and a change like parents grading teachers takes a jump in perception. When steam railways were mooted many, many years ago, before our time, they received an overwhelming no with arguments that look laughable today in view of the fact that railways are now an integral part of our world.

Feenie Tue 29-Jan-13 15:38:23

clam - I would say -3 (not a cat's chance grin). Hope your leg gets better soon x

Twiggles, what language are you referring to?

<watches tumbleweed fall across thread>

learnandsay Tue 29-Jan-13 15:38:40

Right, that's why HS2 is getting such a great reception.

Lifeisontheup Tue 29-Jan-13 15:42:21

As a parent I would refuse to grade teachers. I would hate the idea and have better things to do with my time.
I have, over the years, trusted my children's teachers to get on with their job with my support but not interference. It seems to have worked, I haven't always liked everything they've said and I have no doubt that they haven't agreed with everything that I have said but we have existed in an atmosphere of mutual support and a lack of interference from both sides.

learnandsay Tue 29-Jan-13 15:49:44

I think perhaps parents should grade the teachers at other schools based on the way those children behave in public. Or maybe everyone should grade them regardless of their parental status.

Or maybe everybody should grade everything.

Meeknmild Tue 29-Jan-13 16:01:56

twiggles - perhaps you would like to explain just how parents should grade teachers?!

Have you ever thought about becoming a governor...

clam Tue 29-Jan-13 16:13:53

I'm fairly confident that the parents of the kids in my class would grade me favourably, so I have no axe to grind here.

However, I'll go along with parents grading teachers with, presumably, the possible end result of some being sacked, the day I'm allowed to grade parents with the possible end result of them having their dcs taken into care. Fair enough?

And feenie I suspect I'm the one guilty of using bad language. grin Mitigating circumstances.
<<points to leg and shrugs>>

Level3at6months Tue 29-Jan-13 16:18:11

Twiggles, how many times does it have to be pointed out to you that teachers are already graded by multiple layers of people and parents have plenty of opportunities to make their views known? If teachers avoided responding to their pupils as much as you're avoiding responding to the posters on here, we'd be in a very sorry state indeed.

ShipwreckedAndComatose Tue 29-Jan-13 16:29:03

Just popping in for my daily groundhog moment grin

pointythings Netherlands Tue 29-Jan-13 18:26:29

Actually if the grading goes two ways that might be a lot of fun...

Parent: 'Mrs Fillintheblank seems unable to recognise my precious darling's genius and unwilling to allow him/her to express their free spirit in class - 1/10'

Mrs F: 'PFB's parents shouldn't be allowed to have hamsters, never mind children - 1/10'

And then, under FOI, the reports could be made accessible to all on the Internet, so we could all have a really good laugh.

Meanwhile - this one's for you, Shipwrecked

And snorbs - fabulous stuff. This thread is just something to look forward to at the end of a long day.

ShipwreckedAndComatose Tue 29-Jan-13 19:46:25

Thanks pointy.. That has cheered me up!!!

This thread is fascinatingly funny!!!

marcopront Costa Rica Wed 30-Jan-13 13:23:09

I have no worries about the gradings that parents would give me, the school I work in has parents in commenting about teachers regularly (private international school) and I know how they feel about me.

But I will repeat my question.

Twiggles at the risk of repeating myself please can you explain to me, how will you as parent, grading me a teacher stop me from giving your child the wrong assessment. I am only a teacher and don't have the benefit of your wisdom.

I do however as a parent know I could not grade my daughter's teachers.

41notTrendy Wed 30-Jan-13 20:21:39

Still going?
Right, before I try a different track with Twiggles, I'm throwing this in. Twigs. Parents evenings. A form of consultation/discussion, even <whispers> a way for parents to decide on whether they think the teacher is doing a decent job. And maybe, even, perhaps, a parent may talk to the teacher about any concerns, so the teacher understands that child better. End result? Everyone feels good. And miniature versions of this happen practically every day at drop off/pick up time. So in a way, what you're suggesting actually happens all the time.
So now, here's a question. Could you give us an idea of what questions you would ask in this grading?

pointythings Netherlands Wed 30-Jan-13 20:55:38

<throws tumbleweed into the thread>

<waits>

clam Wed 30-Jan-13 21:05:02

Parents are cheating and lying!! <stamps foot>
They sign their child's reading log to say they have heard them read when they haven't! Some parents admit they're cheating and don't take the logs seriously and write them to impress teachers. This is happening all over the show and I can't understand why the authorities are allowing them to get away with it. If teachers start grading parents in the school every three months the parents won't be able to hide what's going on to the inspectors, so parents who are pretending might stop. Parents who aren't giving inspectors the facts need to be stopped...they're not giving children an honest education.

pointythings Netherlands Wed 30-Jan-13 21:06:44

clam nice try, but you lack that air of random repetitive bonkersness that the OP so effectively uses in her communications...

Still, have some thanks for the effort.

clam Wed 30-Jan-13 21:35:23

I can do repetitive bonkersness!!

Nah, can't be bothered. Thanks for the flowers though. grin

Euphemia France Wed 30-Jan-13 22:16:12

Right, I've got the answer.

When someone becomes a student teacher, they are given a Parent Mentor (PM). The PM will accompany the student to all lectures and tutorials, thereby acquiring pedagogical knowledge.

On school placements, as well as having the opportunity to see a range of different schools, the PM will offer the excellent service of grading both the class teacher and the student teacher. The PM will also complete the student's placement report.

Upon graduation, the NQT will be placed in his/her PM's child's class. This will be advantageous to all: the rapport between the NQT and the PM will already be established, and the PM's child will also benefit greatly from having the ever-present critical eye of his/parent overseeing lessons.

Assessment of the NQT will be thrice daily, with copies to the SLT, local authority, Ofsted and Michael Gove.

The school will be required to demonstrate on a twice weekly basis that it has responded to each and every point raised by the PM, showing evidence, not just a ticky-boxy proforma.

Ofsted will fine the school £500 for every point unaddressed and £1000 for every serious misdemeanor on the part of the NQT (being unable to locate a child's glove at the end of the day; deducting five minutes of a child's Golden Time because s/he refused despite three times of asking to take the bin off his/her head, etc.).

The PM will on occasion accompany the NQT home, in order to ensure that s/he is maintaining high moral standing e.g., no consumption of alcohol in public, no wearing of a onesie to Asda, no demonstrations in public of affection to partners to whom s/he is not married.

Maybe THEN teachers will stop cheating and lying about it, eh?!

pointythings Netherlands Wed 30-Jan-13 22:23:40

<rolls on floor laughing>

<picks self up>

<offers Euphemia wine for best post of the thread so far>

BRILLIANT!!!

<refuses to apologise for shouting>

Euphemia France Wed 30-Jan-13 22:27:08

But I'm serious. hmm

Euphemia France Wed 30-Jan-13 22:27:23

grin

Level3at6months Wed 30-Jan-13 22:28:52

Hahahahaha! Don't let Gove read that...!

Euphemia France Wed 30-Jan-13 22:34:07

I teach in Scotland, Gove has no power over me. grin

marcopront Costa Rica Thu 31-Jan-13 01:32:17

Are parents only going to grade primary teachers?

I'm safe then. I teach in secondary. Does that mean I can cheat?

Euphemia France Thu 31-Jan-13 06:39:55

No - someone will be along shortly with a plan for you. wink

Feenie Thu 31-Jan-13 06:57:22

Brilliant, Euphemia! Cheered me up this morning grin

ShipwreckedAndComatose Thu 31-Jan-13 17:10:50

grin

Mocking from afar!!

I'm also secondary and expect some sort of grade performance criteria to be embedded into that.
Something along the lines of the NQT having to achieve A* grades (no value added nonsense here) with ALL students in an elitist exam that everyone will sit but grades cannot show inflation because then the exam will not demonstrate rigor.....

middlesqueezed Thu 31-Jan-13 17:31:46

Is this thread really still going? Will it be a record if it makes it into February? Have I got time to make some popcorn?

pointythings Netherlands Thu 31-Jan-13 18:52:22

Shipwrecked is your spelling of rigor (as in mortis) as opposed to rigour (as in Gove) intentional, or a Freudian slip? smile.

Me, I'm going to keep coming back until
1) The OP comes up with some evidence,
2) The thread hits 1000 posts, or
3) It's time to get started on my Christmas shopping.

mrz Thu 31-Jan-13 18:59:44

I don't think twiggles will be around that long

ShipwreckedAndComatose Thu 31-Jan-13 19:54:29

Ha! Freudian all the way grin

ShipwreckedAndComatose Thu 31-Jan-13 19:55:48

Teachers are too lazy to spell properly btw.

Parents should be allowed to stand at the back of the class checking their spelling, that would sort it out.

pointythings Netherlands Thu 31-Jan-13 20:14:39

The majority of the parents I know - not so much, Shipwrecked grin. And I'd do it, being a terrible pedant, but I have this thing called a life. Unlike the OP, or the idiot Gove.

Anyway, I think your Freudian slip was pure genius and very topical. wine

twiggles Fri 08-Mar-13 11:08:00

It's a pity there are so many teachers on this thread, who appear biased towards keeping the same old system going, afraid of feedback from the majority - parents and their children. That suggests they are afraid of what will happen if the true situation comes to light. The only way to stop teachers who are cheating from doing it is to make them accountable to the parents of the children they teach. Grading each school isn't enough. Every single teacher needs to be graded by parents, every term. Teachers who are cheating might stop if they knew they couldn't get away with it.

I'm new to this thread (I know - how did I miss it?) Twiggles, can I just check, did you just say, 'Teachers need to be graded by parents'? How on earth would that work and why would you want it?

To return to your original point, my Ds is able. His teacher differentiates work for him and his similarly fabled peers. Every parents evening I am shown a graph with the expected average attainment for his age group and his actual attainment. I am encouraged to look through his books, wherein lies the evidence. Every single time, he has progressed further along those graphs. He's bright - he might get those levels on his own, but I seriously doubt it!

His teacher wants him to get level 3 in his SATS, so the support teacher takes him and a small group of similar ability children, once a week, and works on writing skills with them. His writing has come on hugely during this time.

One boy, one school - hardly a serious study - but it does seem to refute your claims. (And mine are evidence-based.)

*fabled - Ds is not the stuff of legend, but autocorrect soon might be.

Yes, it's a pity there are so many teachers on this thread, given it's a thread about, y'know, them. hmm

clam Fri 08-Mar-13 18:54:06

Forgive me, but isn't twiggles' latest post an exact replica of the bollocks what she has spouted in her OP?

Feenie Fri 08-Mar-13 18:58:04

Oh hello again, Twiggles - still barking then grin

Euphemia France Fri 08-Mar-13 19:03:48

Grading each school isn't enough. Every single teacher needs to be graded by parents, every term. Teachers who are cheating might stop if they knew they couldn't get away with it.

A parent at our school recently said we're "all bitches". smile Should the parents grade us on a scale from Honey to Trunchbull? :-

Miss Honey.
Nice.
A bit wet.
Rabbit in the headlights.
Confident.
Somewhat up herself.
A bit snippy.
Stuck-up cow.
Harridan.
Bitch.
The Trunchbull.

I'd be genuinely interested to see where I was graded.

Snorbs Fri 08-Mar-13 19:06:27

Twiggles, I'm a parent. I'm not a teacher. I'd really like to see what evidence you have of teachers cheating.

I am confident that my request will, once again, be completely ignored. Because you have no evidence do you?

clam Fri 08-Mar-13 19:08:30

Hmm, well, if I was grading myself I'd say "nice, confident, a bit snippy, harridan."

poshme Fri 08-Mar-13 19:23:15

I think that the suggestion of a random sentence generator is a good one - I though that on about page 3!
Some sort of robot, designed to irritate teachers.
How long dyou think it'll be allowed by its controller to keep going?

At the moment, I'd say 'rabbit in the headlights'.

sittinginthesun Fri 08-Mar-13 19:28:42

I thought this thread had gone to sleep. Still, it is Friday I suppose...

cumbrialass Fri 08-Mar-13 19:29:45

After two parents evenings, World Maths Day, World Book Day and Mothers DAy assembly all this week, I would need a "frazzled" category grin

indyandlara Fri 08-Mar-13 19:38:29

Blah blah blah. Same old with no evidence or anything new to say.

Happy to be graded by parents as long as I can grade them too.

Snorbs Fri 08-Mar-13 22:07:13

As well as grading teachers, could us parents also grade OPs of Mumsnet threads who make wild claims wholly unsupported by any evidence and who completely ignore any requests for clarification?

If so, Twiggles I award you a 'D' - must try harder.

exoticfruits Fri 08-Mar-13 22:17:17

I don't know why when Twiggles was told she was spouting utter rubbish that she bothered to come back for a second go!
I'm not sure I would even give her a D- I would say she needed evidence. She must be a very tedious parent.

Feenie Fri 08-Mar-13 22:44:33

I would give her Notice to Improve.

CecilyP Sat 09-Mar-13 08:23:21

Every single teacher needs to be graded by parents, every term. Teachers who are cheating might stop if they knew they couldn't get away with it.

For an typical class of 30, there would be around 50 parents so if they gave grades from A to D, it would probably average out at B- (or somewhat up herself, given Euphemia's system); it would tell you nothing.

Labro Sat 09-Mar-13 08:44:06

heres a radical thought for twiggles (and no, I'm not a teacher either) perhaps her child (as we are obviously talking about 1 child rather than the implied millions) has developed under her teachers care and attention, but mummy (aka twiggles) doesn't want to actually believe that though said child started school reading, she didn't actually read with understanding??? Then, said very pushy parent (aka Twiggles) decided that ALL teachers are actually the same (which, being human they're all different!) and couldn't wait to get her sentence generator out at the same time each year! Wonder how old her child is now?

exoticfruits Sat 09-Mar-13 10:01:54

It is easy to tell that twiggles has made no progress. After 6 or so weeks she comes back without anything new to add to the debate and obviously has no clue as to how schools track pupils.

I don't normally nit pick but I will this time.

some primary schools and nurseries are pretending children start off at the low end, so they can pretend to inspectors of private and state schools that the child has developed only because of their teaching

Name some-failing that a percentage-'some' could be 3 schools, 300 schools or 3000 schools or more.
What does twiggles think inspectors do? confused Does she not realise that they go through all the paper work and look at exercise books of the above average, average, below average and SEN?
Does she think that parents are thick? That intelligent parents in the state sector don't know what their DC can do and are not getting updates and seeing the changes for themselves. Does she think that parents in the private sector are forking out thousands of pounds in fees without keeping a close watch on whether it is worth it?

some schools in rich areas take it out on the child. They won't bother giving the child attention, because the child's advanced, so they let the child coast downwards. But they give reports in writing about the child that pretend the child has started off at a low point in development and then got much better because of the teaching at the school....when the fact is the child was able to read or write when the child started at the school and as the school is giving the child little attention, the child has coasted downwards

This is only a repeat of the first paragraph and the next bit is the same again. She seems to have a very dim view of parents. If they have an advanced child it is probably because they are reasonably intelligent themselves-they know where the child is when they start and school is a partnership. I have never tried to ignore a bright child when teaching but I would imagine it is impossible. OP seems to think that DCs are just apathetic and sit there like a bowl of porridge doing nothing unless the teacher notices them. It supposes that parents never talk to their child and never go in to say the child is bored and it supposes that the inspectors are not free to talk to any child. Above all it ignores the fact that parents can fill in a questionnaire before the inspection and be as candid as they like. They can write whole essays if they wish!
If a bright child is coasting I can't see how it is downwards-how do you unlearn what you can already do?

they want all children to be the same standard

Why? It is much easier to have different standards. Even if you start a lesson from the same place they will all be at different places by the end.

be the same standard, like a photocopier

As a supply teacher I have used many different photocopiers and they are not the same standard! Some are basic and some very advanced with everything in between.

This is happending all over the show

A repeat of the first paragraph-same question. Evidence please.

I can't understand why inspectors are allowing them to get away with it

Again a repeat-from someone who has no idea how a school inspection works.

The ending says the same again-I can't even be bothered to copy and paste.

Basically it could be a very short OP. Twiggles thinks that teachers are lazy and they can teach at the same level for a whole class by pretending that the bright are average so that they coast along and at the end of the year the teacher looks brilliant by getting them back to the place that they were at when they started and that inspectors and parents are so thick or gullible that they can't work this out!! It also doesn't explain what they do with the SEN or below average who are also supposed to make progress.

I suggest that she rewrites if she wishes to continue the debate -with evidence.
I would imagine that she either has an axe to grind with a particular school or she is a home educator who has a very poor opinion of schools in general.

twiggles Sun 10-Mar-13 01:37:44

If you don't like this thread, you're under no obligation to leave messages.
All I've heard so far is a regurgitation of the rather boring and uninspiring teachers' status quo, such as the off pat unoriginal statement that no child can be a good all rounder - which is a stale idea, suggesting those who reel it off are not all rounders themselves and can't imagine how anyone could be, because it's outside their own experience. Poor children. Stale thinking teachers can breed stale ideas that encourage children to believe they're limited. Perception is projection. If a child or adult believes they're limited they probably will be. Just because some teachers are limited themselves and feel insecure about letting children be all they can be is no reason to let teachers get away with it. If parents and their children grade teachers every term, the best teachers will benefit. I don't think many of the teachers on this thread would get an award for politeness. Hopefully, the way they are here doesn't reflect the way they are with their pupils.

Labro Sun 10-Mar-13 05:19:18

but your argument for grading teachers by parents doesn't have any particular validity apart from applying it to the teacher or teachers who have taught your own child badly. You are also regurgitating an old argument repeatedly and now suggest that the child should grade the teacher as well? So, an adults competance should be scored by a 5 year old? If you've had problems with individual teachers then it doesn't follow that there needs to be a national awareness or system, ofsted already exist!

exoticfruits Sun 10-Mar-13 07:26:09

I know lots of children who are good all rounders and I know lots of very bright children- our schools are full of them and able to cope!
I don't think that you have the least understanding of Ofsted.
Firstly parents can contact them at any time with concerns- they do not have to wait for an inspection.
Secondly when there is an inspection parents get the questionnaire and can add extra comments- they will then look out specifically for any concerns.
Thirdly the inspectors can talk to any child during the inspection and ask their opinions.( they are not stupid- they have opinions)
Fourthly differentiation is one of the key things they are looking for and the school would get a very poor result if they were not extending the brightest.
They also have all the past lesson plans which have to show differentiation.
Fifthly they see a selection of exercise books from an above average child, an average child, below average child and SEN child and the would no be expected to have exactly the same work and they would be expected to show what had been in the lesson plan. The inspectors don't have to stick to the selected books, they can see any.

Apart from inspections teachers are regularly observed in lessons by the Head, the subject leader and the school governors. They give written feedback.
In all primary schools that I have worked in, parents help out in the classroom and they can see what goes on in a lesson.

You seem to think there is a major conspiracy, all colluded by parents, governors and children who don't speak up- when they have ample opportunity to do so.
I love the way that I am told that I am not obliged to leave messages! Luckily it is a public thread and I can say what I like, within the guidelines. I suggest that you hide it if you don't like it because I shall continue to correct you.

I believe there are sites where you can grade your teacher. Personally I think they are a waste of space and wouldn't bother reading them. As an intelligent parent, with intelligent children, we can make our own mind up. If I thought that the school was failing my children then I would change the school.

What a shame that teachers have to be polite and can't grade the parents! grin

exoticfruits Sun 10-Mar-13 07:31:57

You have a peculiar last sentence

'Hopefully, the way they are here doesn't reflect the way they are with their pupils'

I thought the entire point was that you didn't like the way they were were with the pupils! You need to make up your mind- or maybe you mean that they are 'politely negligent'. If they are not doing their job properly I can't see that it matters- it would be more helpful if they were 'rudely negligent' because they would be noticed more quickly and weeded out sooner.

exoticfruits Sun 10-Mar-13 07:42:51

I suggest that you take it up with the Head of your child's school- if you are not happy with the response then contact the governors. After that, if you are still not happy, write to Ofsted.
If you don't have children in school then you don't have to worry- other parents are intelligent enough to deal with it themselves.

Gingerodgers Sun 10-Mar-13 07:54:21

Twiggles, you sound a bit bonkers.

clam Sun 10-Mar-13 09:05:56

"A bit?" hmm

mrz Sun 10-Mar-13 10:16:11
twiggles Tue 12-Mar-13 14:07:25

Teachers write reports about children.
Teachers grade children, sometimes as early as four.
Some teachers cheat, pretending they've added value.
How do parents and children of teachers who cheat feel.
Why are some teachers getting away with cheating.
Is it because they want a better report from the inspectors.
If teachers were graded by parents and their children every term, they'd find it more difficult to cheat. They'd also have a reason to be more polite to pupils and their parents.
Why don't some teachers want to be graded by the parents of and children they teach. The best teachers would benefit from grading. It would bring them out of the shadows. Top teachers would shine.

Snorbs Tue 12-Mar-13 15:55:01

Twiggle's Report Card:

Listening in class - "E"
Twiggles must pay better attention when asked questions and endeavour to answer them or, at least, explain why those questions cannot / will not be answered.

Evidence-Based Reasoning - "E"
While Twiggles is very good at making impassioned claims she needs to work on her ability to produce reasoned arguments. In particular, her ability to evaluate and produce evidence to back up her assertions needs serious work.

Entertainment Value - "C"
Although she started off promisingly her entertainment value has waned. Bit too much of a one-trick pony?

mrz Tue 12-Mar-13 17:16:42

If teachers were graded by parents and their children every term, they'd find it more difficult to cheat.

You are totally barking ....

Common sense -U

Labro Tue 12-Mar-13 17:44:16

Using that reasoning Twiggles, everybody would be entitled to grade and report on everybody else, so children would grade their parents, teachers would also grade parents as parents are grading them etc.

When my ds was 4, I was told in a family court that he didn't have the capacity to make informed decisions based on his age.

So, a 4 yr old 'grading' a teacher would read:

I think Miss X is good because she looks like goldilocks and I like her jumper.

I think Mr Y is bad because he looks like Noddy and he smells.

Yep, that would be so useful in sorting out your personal issues with how your childs teacher has taught her so far.

Euphemia France Tue 12-Mar-13 17:44:53

Yeah, because parents would be so much better at spotting cheating than the inspectorate ... hmm

learnandsay Tue 12-Mar-13 18:14:24

Each parent has to write the grade down, fold the paper over and pass it to the parent on their left. Then each has to phone an absent parent and tell him or her the grade. Each absent parent has to come to the school at the earliest opportunity and put that grade next to the name of the parent he or she thinks gave the grade to his or her parent who was present. The grades are then tallied and an average is taken.

I think it's quite a good idea.

Feenie Tue 12-Mar-13 18:21:36

Why don't some teachers want to be graded by the parents of and children they teach.

In case they are as bonkers as you.

cumbrialass Tue 12-Mar-13 18:28:40

And parents clearly know more about teaching and learning then the two Heads who observed me teach this morning! So if the Heads say I'm Outstanding and the parents say I'm cr*p, who should I believe?

clam Tue 12-Mar-13 18:34:20

^ Yeah. What feenie said.

But come on people. Why are we giving the OP any airtime at all? She's clearly barking. regrets not being allowed to tell her to f* off

Euphemia France Tue 12-Mar-13 18:36:05

But you see, Cumbrialass, the Heads and you are all in it together. You're all colluding to pull the wool over parents' and inspectors' eyes.

So obviously the parents' views would take precedence.

grin