Help, sexual bullying in Y1

(174 Posts)
Lost4anything Sat 19-Jan-13 12:40:32

My DD, age 5, told me that boys from Y2 (age 6) surrounded her and one boy told her "You are my girlfriend, baby", pulled her tights down and put his finger in her bottom "to feel inside".

Boys' parents know about this culture (before this incident) but find it cute and innocent. I spoken with the teacher and her first response was that boys deny everything.

I am having trouble moderating my reaction between taking her out of school to calling social services.

How to get the school to deal with this? In case anyone wonders, this an outstanding oversubscribed school in very leafy rural area.

What to say to DD?

Cacks81 Sat 19-Jan-13 13:04:17

I find this appalling! Admittedly, I doubt the boys really know what they are doing, but the fact that parents find it funny and cute, this I find disturbing. Has this happened to any other girls?

I would talk to the school, in fact the head teacher, to say that you feel sonethibg else needs to be done. Perhaps some sort of lesson on behaviour and boundaries.

I also question how a yr2 would even think of that? Where did he get the idea from? Whilst the school couldn't tell you if they were, they should be investigating the boy's background as that behaviour is very unnerving and raises potential child protection issues on his part.

As for talking to you DD, I would want her to know that this is wrong and to feel she can tell you anything that makes her feel uncomfortable. Clearly you have a very good relationship as she told you.

I hope you receive more support and assurance from your outstanding school.

Good luck.

learnandsay Sat 19-Jan-13 13:04:57

Tell the headmistress that you want her to speak to the classes affected about playing nicely together. Is your daughter distressed by the incident? What does she think happened? If she isn't still overly distressed by it I wouldn't bring it up again. But I would tell her to go and tell a teacher if she doesn't like the way that the boys are playing. If it's innocent then why are the boys denying it? Presumably the school is dealing with it if it has secured denials from the boys, but it is clearly not dealing with it to your satisfaction.

What is the "culture" that you speak of?

To sort the matter out in your head I would write down a list of my demands and then divide a piece of paper into pros and cons. I doubt there's much Social Services can do. But I'm sure they'd be willing to talk to you about what is and what is not acceptable in playground behaviour. But my feeling is that it is the head who is responsible for playground policy. (If the children are unsafe that's a different matter.)

hpsaucy Sat 19-Jan-13 13:06:25

Where did this happen? where was the teachers/MDA's ?

donnie Sat 19-Jan-13 13:09:05

IMO this needs to be flagged up as a potentially VERY serious incident. The fact that the parents see it as 'cute and innocent' would set the alarm off for me.

I would inform ss, the LEA - everyone. Seriously, your poor dd. If it were me I would make an absolutely almighty fuss about this until it was dealt with.

You nned to explain to your dd that what they did was wrong and nobody is allowed to do anything like that to her, ever.

Adversecamber Sat 19-Jan-13 13:13:32

That is incredibly disturbing behaviour and not just a look at the girls knickers kind of thing that I remember from school doing handstands kind of stuff.

That boy may very well have been or is being abused and I actually think you should speak to someone like the NSPCC about overtly sexualised behaviour in this boy.

hpsaucy Sat 19-Jan-13 13:15:57

How do you know that the boys parents think it is cute?

I cant understanding why the school hasn't involved SS straight away, this is so serious.

Feenie Sat 19-Jan-13 13:16:57

The teacher's reaction is very difficult to believe, and this needs taking further. Any other school would take this extremely seriously and would follow Child Protection procedures. Report to Head and Social Care.

LatteLady Sat 19-Jan-13 13:25:10

This is most definitely a Child Protection Issue. The behaviour of the boys needs to be flagged and investigated further as this would most certainly not be considered to be normal behaviour... you need to be seeing the HT on Monday morning or their cover if they are not available and ask them what action they will be taking. If you do not get any response from them, ask for a copy of the School Complaints Procedure, the Bullying and Harrassment Policy and the Child Protection Policy. Next call after that is to Social Services.

The reaction of the class teacher is inappropriate, but unfortunately not uncommon, because they do not think about what might be happening at home to produce this sort of behaviour as they do not think such things happen in "naice" families.

cloudpuff Sat 19-Jan-13 13:26:57

I would in no way be letting this go. Its alarming that the parents think its cute. You mentioned that the Parents are aware of this culture, it doesn't matter what culture they are from this behaviour needs stopping.
Has it happened before that you are aware of.

Lost4anything Sat 19-Jan-13 13:28:25

There were incidents before. Last year boys pulled my DD pants down to see her bottom. I reported to the teacher. She assured my they dealt with this and it was mere "silliness". I gathered from other parents that there are 21 boys for 8 girls in that class. In Y1 they were showing their willies to girls. Now they developed this "boyfriend" culture - that every boy has a "girlfriend". The school tried to deal with this but their still minimize it to just "silliness". The parents think the "boyfriend" culture is innocent. One mother told me that Y2 are innocent in her opinion but Y3 might be not. I do find the complacency and denial disturbing.

DD thinks those are silly jokes from silly boys. I told her it is wrong and that she should speak to a teacher if it happens again. Probably I shouldn't cause her more alert, or she will feel guilty and distressed.

I want the school to have some lessons/programme to deal with friendships, relationships, respect of others, and boundaries. Basically to re frame this boyfriend culture away from sex.
But I also want my daughter, all children protected from sexual touching and bullying.

crazygracieuk Sat 19-Jan-13 13:34:03

It's not normal or cute. I'd be fucking furious.

My dd has always been in a class with similar ratio. Some children talk about boyfriend/girlfriend but those who go out just sit next to each other in assembly. The y6 might hold hands or kiss in private but certainly no sexual touching. This is a school in a deprived area of London suburbs.

mrz Sat 19-Jan-13 13:34:42

It needs to be reported to Social Services

FamiliesShareGerms Sat 19-Jan-13 13:35:38

These aren't silly jokes, these are incidents of highly inappropriate behaviour. If the school has failed to deal with concerns in the past, I would have my DD out of there as soon as possible, and I would be writing to the governors and LEA to tell them why.

Hope your DD is OK

learnandsay Sat 19-Jan-13 13:35:45

Why don't phone Social Services on Monday and ask for an opinion?

hpsaucy Sat 19-Jan-13 13:39:00

these are 5 and 6 years olds!!! there should be any sexual culture!!!

You said he put his finger in her bottom!! This should have been reported straight away!

hpsaucy Sat 19-Jan-13 13:40:41

where did this happen?

Rosa Sat 19-Jan-13 13:41:12

Boyfriend and girlfriend culture can be cute at age 5&6 but pulling tights down and 'having a feel' is way out if order and not within the 'culture'. I would be bloody furious and would have probably been in the heads office within 24 hrs of it happening and creating hell until it was sorted. The parents of the boys concerned need to be investigated as well as to why and how a 6 yr old has the knowledge for such actions.

learnandsay Sat 19-Jan-13 13:43:42

The words boyfriend and girlfriend don't imply that there is a sexual culture. I think the word culture was introduced to describe the children's regime that all children must have a boyfriend or a girlfriend.

I don't quite know what the OP means in her later post when she says that it is currently based on sex. (Sex in what way?)

elfycat Sat 19-Jan-13 13:46:53

Some serious safeguarding issues! The school doesn't see sexual assault as serious? Yes they are kids but this is beyond the 'you show me yours'.

Social services - yes. Ofsted included in a written complaint - yes. Meeting with the head where they have to spell out exactly how they plan to keep boys hands out of your daughters knickers - yes!

BluelightsAndSirens Sat 19-Jan-13 13:47:01

From your first post I would contact the police.

End of.

Lost4anything Sat 19-Jan-13 13:48:20

I first heard this on Tuesday. I spoke with the school on Wednesday. On Thursday the school gave me the initial reply that boys deny this, but they will investigate further. On Friday the school was closed because of snow.
The conversation with the teacher was informal and the emphasis on "silliness" made me uncomfortable, given it is a second time. I do think that on Monday I should put it in writing to the school, so they couldn't dismiss it as "silliness".

learnandsay Sat 19-Jan-13 13:51:55

The police can't do anything. These children are way below the age of criminal responsibility, (unless Blue, you're suggesting that they arrest the staff.)

Viviennemary Sat 19-Jan-13 13:54:47

I agree this is quite disturbing behaviour for children of that age. And it needs to be stopped. I think I would ask SS to investigate and inform the local authority. The teacher should not be brushing it off in this way. It is a serious matter and the school is not dealing with it in a way that is satisfactory for you. It wouldn't be satisfactory to me either.

hpsaucy Sat 19-Jan-13 13:56:35

I would like to know where the staff were when *"boys from Y2 (age 6) surrounded her and one boy told her "You are my girlfriend, baby", pulled her tights down and put his finger in her bottom "to feel inside".

if this was my DD involved headteacher and SS straight away

PaleHousewifeOfCumbriaCounty Sat 19-Jan-13 13:58:04

Had something a little similar myself. A boy cornered my wee lass when she was in yr 1 in the playhouse and pulled her pants down. Staff had a go at my lass, saying she didnt want to be 'one of those girls'. She obviously didnt have a clue what that meant and broke her heart when she got home. I went through the teacher, asking how dare she suggest my daughter had invited the unwanted attention.... Lets just say the feminist in me had a field day. Teacher retired that year... My advice is to pursue it through school. Your daughter has a right to a safe place of learning.

learnandsay Sat 19-Jan-13 13:58:16

The OP has to live in the area after she has implied that the parents of a large group of Y2 boys are fiddling with their kids. Doesn't this need some thinking about?

Early over-sexualised behaviour can be a sign of abuse, this needs to be taken seriously, I'd be fecking furious too.

Go to the head with your concerns.

BluelightsAndSirens Sat 19-Jan-13 13:59:15

The police can't do anything?

That is a serious accusation of sexual assault that is not being dealt with by the school, it raise questions in regards to the safety of all children involved.

SS would be the best first point of contact but the school should be dealing with their involvement.

Where was the child when it happened?

Smudging Sat 19-Jan-13 13:59:46

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Selks Sat 19-Jan-13 14:01:27

Your daughter was sexually assaulted and the school needs to understand that this is a serious safeguarding issue.

It is not ok for a class of mostly boys and a minority of girls to have any kind of a culture where boys feel it is ok to harrass and abuse the girls like this. What kind of message does it give the girls - and the boys - that this behaviour is tolerated? This may stem from playground messing around but it has crossed the line into inappropriate and abusive behaviour. What a horrible environment and atmosphere for the girls. And that you describe it as a culture within that school shows that the school is not acknowledging or addressing the issue adequately at all.

I would be unhappy with the school for not addressing the issues and if they don't do so properly I'd consider moving my child to a different school.

Smudging Sat 19-Jan-13 14:01:52

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Selks Sat 19-Jan-13 14:03:37

The school will have - or should have - a designated safeguarding lead professional. I'd see if I can find out who that is and speak to them. let them know that if the school doesn't deal with this properly that you will take it further. You could consider making a complaint to the local education authority and to ofsted. That will get them moving.

TidyDancer Sat 19-Jan-13 14:05:12

I agree completely with Smudging.

This is not something you can let go. It just isn't.

EvenIfYouSeeAPoppy Sat 19-Jan-13 14:05:33

The boyfriend/girlfriend thing could be mildly inappropriate if it were a non-coercive jokey thing, but it sounds oppressive and threatening. I would wonder if some of these boys were getting things from inadequately supervised older siblings. The assault, however, takes things to a whole new level. That is extremely disturbing and goes far beyond 'silliness' or even 'bullying' - no 6yo hits on ideas like that by themselves. I would be very worried indeed about the boy in question.

My 7yo is in a class which is about 75% boys and there has never, ever been anything like this.

Head, SS, governors.

learnandsay Sat 19-Jan-13 14:06:24

No it's not sexual assault. Sexual assault is a crime and these children are below the age of criminal responsibility. This is a case of children inappropriately touching a young girl. The reasons why that happened need to be fathomed. (It may be innocent but wrong and school rules should be enforced if that is indeed the case.) It may cause by some defect in the boy. That may have to be investigated.

But there are clearly at least two aspects to this which need to be treated differently (a) the actions of the boy (b) the action/inaction of the school.

chimchar Sat 19-Jan-13 14:07:04

It is ringing alarm bells with me too. I work in a specialist school with an usually high (I would hope) number of child protection issues.

School have not dealt with this in an appropriate way. I would ask to meet with the head on Monday and tell that you are very concerned about 1. The incident and 2. The way that school have dealt with it.

I hope you and your little girl are ok.

hpsaucy Sat 19-Jan-13 14:08:53

pulled her tights down and put his finger in her bottom "to feel inside".

That's is sexual assault in my eyes!!!

elfycat Sat 19-Jan-13 14:12:38

The word assault doesn't belong to the legal system, so you can be assaulted (me by DD2 pulling my hair if you like) without the need to call the police,

So the term sexual assault is valid here.

And as for safeguarding, well that's a legal obligation and it's failed.. is that criminal enough for this situation?

learnandsay Sat 19-Jan-13 14:13:29

It's a similar looking behaviour as sexual assault but it's not the same classification because of the perpetrator's age.

twentyten Sat 19-Jan-13 14:14:53

This is serious.Write it down in an Email.Go and see Head.Ask for written reply.Take it further with governors if neccesary.
Good luck.

learnandsay Sat 19-Jan-13 14:17:53

Now might be a good time for the head to look at behaviour across the school. Who knows what else is lurking?

Write to the school informing them that their inaction has caused you to doubt their ability to deal with it and inform them that you have contacted SS.

contact SS immediately. There is a chance this boy is being abused. There is a chance that it is innocent curiosity.

Either way, the school is not treating it as a concern so go to someone who will.

teacherwith2kids Sat 19-Jan-13 14:28:23

As a parent, the most direct way to deal with this is to report it to Social Services, as it rules out the 'lost amongst the middle men' issue that may happen if you choose to address it only via school. Also, within SS you would hope that EVERYONE has the appropriate level of Safeguarding training and thus will know exactly how to respond to such a report.

In parallel, you need to put it in writing, and ask to speak to the 'Designated Person' for safeguarding in school (may be the head, may not be - I believe that mrz is the one for her school, for example. If it is the head and they say they are too busy, ask for the deputy Designated Person, as there must be one). Meet with them, and go through what you have written down, and why it rings alarm bells for you. Say something like 'I feel that this needs to be dealt with not only as a disciplinary issue within school, but also as a safeguarding issue wrt the perpetrator [and maybe the surrounding 'gang'], and therefore I have also reported it to SS'.

It may be precisely the 'green leafiness' that has made the school complacent on this issue. Having worked in both types of school, the 'green leafy' type CAN be a little 'well, we only have nice children and families, so we don't need to think about Safeguarding here' - a presumption of innocence that may well be misplaced. In schools with more 'obviously challenging' intakes, there is perhaps more 'vigilance' about such issues, and a culture [as there should be] of 'report and record everything - it may be that it is nothing, but it is better to over-react than under-react'.

The OP has to live in the area after she has implied that the parents of a large group of Y2 boys are fiddling with their kids. Doesn't this need some thinking about?

Yes, just let your DD be sexually assaulted in school for fear of upsetting the neighbours. Jesus.

OP, calling SS is not an overreaction in this case. Im so horrified for your poor DD. If it was me Im not sure I could have sent her back to that school, but I realise how she could translate that as being punished.

Lost4anything Sat 19-Jan-13 14:37:53

Thank you all for your words of support. I am obviously furious and am going to see this through. After initial reaction however I had a thought TBH that the parents would turn it around and say DD asked for it.

BonzoDooDah Sat 19-Jan-13 14:39:35

I (parent of a 5 yo in y1) am quite shocked that a 6 year old thinks this is appropriate "Boyfriend" behaviour. Where on earth have they learned this? (worrying) I'm with you on getting this in writing to the school and also speaking to social services, if only for advice.
I am really quite shocked as you obviously are!
I would demand that these boys are kept away from my daughter or the police will be informed. They have a duty to protect your child, especially as this is a second assault.

mrz Sat 19-Jan-13 14:44:19

For those who believe this is a behavioural problem news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6410909.stm It must be reported to Social Services and if the school hasn't already done so I suggest the OP does so immediately

mrz Sat 19-Jan-13 14:52:14

Lost4anything you say you are furious yet you seem more worried about what others think than the fact that your child has been the victim of a serious sexual assault! Do you believe your daughter? If so you must take action.

LadyCurd Sat 19-Jan-13 14:52:21

Friend of mine works in this area and told me about the brook sexual behaviours traffic light tool www.brook.org.uk/index.php?option=com_brookprint&view=printready&task=display&id=3&format=brookprint case you have described would be amber or red. School needs to intervene. DM me for more info/support from my pal. He isn't a mumsnetter!

baffledmum Sat 19-Jan-13 14:55:40

OP - I can only offer moral support here. I'd've been banging on the HT's door the morning after. My kids are clear if anyone touches you in the area of your underwear, even if they tell you it is a secret, you tell me. Your poor DD. If you need to speak with someone yourself I'd suggest the NSPCC or, if your employer has one, the Employee Assistance Programme. I am furious on your behalf - innocent curiosity or not, whether the boy is being abused or not - this needs dealing with. Good luck.

PeppermintCreams Sat 19-Jan-13 15:08:57

Your local council might have a duty social worker working over the weekend. Give them a call now for advice.

Lost4anything Sat 19-Jan-13 15:14:17

I am not at all worried about what others think. But I do want to know what others think, what they expect from a school and what other parents' experiences are, because I believe it would help me to do what I have to do most effectively.
I do want to know the temperature outside, that's all. I don't need to apologize to anyone.

Cacks81 Sat 19-Jan-13 15:18:21

You certainly do not need to apologise. I think that the lack of action and support from the school has made you question your judgement, which hopefully you can see from the support on here was bang on.

I would have asked exactly the same questions had I received the same response you did.

Do what you feel is best for your DD and you. It might be tough, or you might find many parents thank you.

Good luck. X

mrz Sat 19-Jan-13 15:19:03

As the Designated Person in my school I have been involved in similar cases (with children of the same age) and it has always been taken seriously by the school and reported immediately to social services.

HellesBelles396 Sat 19-Jan-13 15:20:14

The Child Protection Officer (required by the school) should not say they are too busy to discuss a child protection issue.

Since this is a sexual assault - and occurred in a place that you are required to send dd to - ds should be informed asap. Now in fact. For all of the reasons stated by others:

to reduce the chance of this happening again
to investigate the school dealt with your complaint
to check the safety of the perpetrator

allowing the sexualization of children is as much a crime as doing making sexual contact with a child. The teacher who dismissed your concerns must be investigated.

crazygracieuk Sat 19-Jan-13 15:21:05

Worried about what the neighbours think? Omg!
I dread to think how many other children at this school might have suffered a similar assault or what these children might go on and do of this is left unchecked. Culture of sexual assault makes me shudder and think of the rape culture in India.[shudder]
I'm surprised that you have sent your daughter back to school after her assault especially when the school have downplayed this.
One of my children were physically assaulted at school and the school were all over the issue and I had the head, deputy head and class teacher explain how it was being dealt with and to come straight to them if it happened again. It didn't happen again but the school considered it v serious which is what I'd expect.

teacherwith2kids Sat 19-Jan-13 15:42:08

OP, I don't understand why you think that the other parents would know
a) that it was your daughter involved
b) that it had been reported through Child Protection channels

If everyone involved (school / SS) does their work properly and professionally, then it should not become 'public knowledge' in the way that you suggest. It might become known to the parents of the specific child perpetrator, but tbh i would suggest that they might not be inclined to chat in the playground about any enquiries from SS about the incident....

(If you are worried that the school WOULD behave unprofessionally and make this - including names of the perpetrator and victim - know widely, then just report through SS and don't involve the school at all BUT remove your child from the school, letting them know why by letter after the event, including the fact that if you trusted them to treat the matter with appropriate confidentiality as well as appropriate seriousness, you would not have had to take that step. Also report what you have done to SS, as they might find the fact that the school is sweeping concerns under the carpet / making private information public something that they might wish to investigate further.)

AbbyR1973 Sat 19-Jan-13 17:30:22

I have child protection responsibilities in

LatteLady Sat 19-Jan-13 17:34:15

The police can't do anything. These children are way below the age of criminal responsibility, (unless Blue, you're suggesting that they arrest the staff.)

Actually this is not true, although the children may be under the age of criminal responsbility, the behaviour needs to be investigated... how do we know that one of the boys is not being assaulted and therefore thinks this behaviour is normal?

On reflection, I might go so far as to ask you to call the Child Protection and Online Protection (CEOP) and talk to them on 0800 389 6176.

AbbyR1973 Sat 19-Jan-13 17:38:54

I have child protection responsibilities in my profession. This is VERY serious. The boys involved can't be more than7 year old sand what you describe goes beyond normal explorative behaviour. It implies a level of sexual knowledge that would not be expected in this age group and raises the very real possibility that they are being sexually abused themselves, or being allowed to watch pornography which is also sexual abuse. This is not in anyway 'cute' and the fact the parents apparently find it so is even more disturbing. These boys are effectively just as much victims as your daughter.
The school should have picked up on this immediately through their safeguarding procedures. The other posters are right this needs to be reported via children's services.
Everybody in society has a duty to protect children.

Lost4anything Sat 19-Jan-13 17:50:16

How do they actually investigate this? I mean the school. Do they simply ask 6 boys what happened? If the boys stick together and deny it all, surely there should be a more robust process to get to the facts?

tethersend Sat 19-Jan-13 18:38:46

You are correct, there needs to be a more robust investigation into this than the school simply asking the boys what happened.

This is exactly why you need to call SS.

SpottyBagOfTumble Sat 19-Jan-13 18:40:52

I have no advice like othe knowledgable mn ers but just wanted to wish you luck. How horrible for you and your daughter.

tethersend Sat 19-Jan-13 18:41:50

If the school challenge you about involving SS, you can express your surprise at the fact that they have not already involved them, as per their legal obligation.

LineRunner Sat 19-Jan-13 18:46:21

I would have reported this to the police. That's a lot of weird shit to be going on.

You will be able to be with your DD while a specialist officer talks to her, gently, and makes a plan of what needs to happen next.

diabolo Sat 19-Jan-13 18:50:21

Please report this, either directly to Social Services or to your schools Designated Safeguarding Professional (my role).

piggywigwig Sat 19-Jan-13 18:55:06

OP
Don't delay for a minute longer in getting in touch with SS!

A very similar thing happened to DD1 in Yr2, except the boy said he was going to tickle her front parts - and did so. We spoke to my sister-in-law ( police detective) and she said it was a serious matter and spoke to her colleague in Child Protection. On the basis of this, we got in touch with the headmaster by letter and in a meeting. We asked if the boy had done anything like that before and he categorically stated verbally, that the boy had never done anything like that before. He stated that he wasn't prepared to do anything about it, as he felt that the boy had to be protected and may be scarred forever if an investigation was carried out. Basically, it trogged on and we said that if the head didn't do something, we'd be forced to take it to SS. Well, he didn't, and we did lol!. The boy was investigated by SS. Some 18 months later, we discovered that the boy had allegedly done similar stuff at the school before and it had been brought to the head's attention, even though the head vehemently denied it to us. angry

Please rest assured people will take you seriously as it is a serious matter. Wish we'd have put more pressure on the headmaster and got him a "stiff talking-to". There's sadly some schools out there who won't or don't take it seriously - in our case, we wonder what else he had to hide? Our big regret, is that we let it carry on too long, trusting that the head might do the appropriate thing.

You owe it to your DD to make sure this matrer is investigated.

bealos Sat 19-Jan-13 19:01:35

Report and escalate in this order: class teacher, head teacher, governors, local education authority, police. Or do all and show you mean business.

This kind of behaviour is disturbing and sexual abuse for any age of child Y1, Y6 or Y11.

tethersend Sat 19-Jan-13 19:02:59

It's shocking that a head, supposedly trained in safeguarding, could put children at risk (both the perpetrator and the victim) by not involving SS.

As others have said, young children displaying inappropriate sexualised behaviour is a marker for potential abuse- by doing nothing, the school could be placing the perpetrator at further risk, as well as the other children around them.

mrz Sat 19-Jan-13 19:09:37

Would you delay if the perpetrators had been older teenage boys or adults?

chewingguminmyhair Sat 19-Jan-13 19:09:59

Haven't read the whole thread but the police and social services need to be involved. This is serious assault. Your daughter needs to see that this is completely unacceptable and ILLEGAL.

Good luck OP.

chewingguminmyhair Sat 19-Jan-13 19:10:53

And children can be prosecuted. 10 yr olds have been found guilty of rape

BetsyVanBell Sat 19-Jan-13 19:15:48

This is a child protection issue. The teacher has not acted appropriately and now you should go to the Head. The teacher should have reported this upwards to the designated senior member of staff and you need to pursue it. This is definitely not "silliness" and it is highly appropriate behaviour that needs to be taken extremely seriously. If the school does nothing go the local authority and social services.

admission Sat 19-Jan-13 19:18:22

This would appear to be a very serious situation and you do need to take this much further. However you are potentially not aware of everything that is going on. Firstly I would say in relation to your daughter. It is not the first time from your posts that something that is sexual in nature has happened to her, so when you take it further it is almost for sure you are going to have to accept that there will be some kind of come back to you, your daughter and your family.
From your posts I am not sure whether you are aware of other incidents with other girls in the class / school or not. If there are then I urge you to make sure that those parents also take action over this.
The way you were fobbed off by the school was wrong. I hope that the teacher has simply been not good at responding to your concerns and has actually done what they should have done. That would have been to report it to the child protection officer in the school, which will probably be the head teacher. They should then have passed such a serious allegation straight to the Local Authority Designated Officer (LADO), who would have I am sure seen this as a potentially very serious incident. That may well have happened and you actually would not have been immediately involved in any investigation but you should have been told that something is happening - again very poor communication by the school at the very least.
I believe on Monday morning you should go into school with a letter of complaint and demand to see the head teacher over a very serious child protection issue at the school. If they do not come running to see you, then leave the letter a the school for the head's attention, go home and phone social services.
If the head does respond then demand that they report it to the LADO and see what happens.

piggywigwig Sat 19-Jan-13 19:18:46

Op

We worried along the same lines as you ie "What if people say she asked for it, or she wanted it to happen?" We worried that no-one would believe us, or more importantly, her. Please don't worry about this anymore - take it from someone who knows exactly what you're going through...please, please, please contact SS as a matter of urgency!

piprabbit Sat 19-Jan-13 19:43:05

It worries me that there is at least one boy who is overly sexually aware (possible because he has been abused too) and he is involving the rest of the boys in the class in abusing the girls.
If the school does nothing then there is a cohort of girls who have been sexually abused and a cohort of boys who mistakenly think this is an appropriate way to interact with their female peers.
This seems to terribly damaging to the whole community. Please be brave and speak to either the NSPCC or SS this weekend, so that you know best how to deal with the school on Monday.
Personally I don't think I could let my DD return to that environment.

Lavenderhoney Sun 20-Jan-13 09:14:46

How awful for you and your dd. you must take iftar further and I would not leave it to the head or teacher. Let them do what they should in terms of telling the right people and you also tell the right people and ss.
It doesn't matter what people think. You have a duty to protect your dd. anyone who says she in yr1 is asking for it should be ignored or noted by you to be reported as enabling. Who would think that anyway? I should think most people would be horrified on your behalf - but why discuss with neighbours etc? It's not a subject to be gossiped about surely? And make your dd feel awkward with you telling people as a item of interest to fill a coffee morning.

I am furious for you- it seems a bizarre way for the school to act. You need to ensure break time is covered and how on earth did it happened during supervised play anyway? You don't need to talk to the boys parents, just direct them at the head.

Don't be fobbed off. What if it gets worse? Can you change schools?

sunnyday123 Sun 20-Jan-13 09:34:31

Surely a culture like this will not change overnight either? - I'm afraid I'd move her ASAP - no way would I send her back, even if they did agree to deal with it properly. That's so serious I can't even imagine that happening to my dd and feel so sorry for you sad

I am surprised anyone would consider keeping their child at such a school- the reaction of the teachers and more importantly the parents would have me remove her straight away.

I'd report to SS and the head but even so there's no way I'd keep her there.

HellesBelles396 Sun 20-Jan-13 09:34:39

If there are less than a certain number of pupils (50 something, I think) supervision of breaktimes is not legally required.

Lost4anything Sun 20-Jan-13 11:09:48

I asked DD and she tells me that many girls in her class had the same experience (she gave 7 names). They told their mummies and mummies told them to stay away from that boy...

Am I hallucinating?

musicalfamily Sun 20-Jan-13 11:16:43

It makes even more of a compelling case for an agency to investigate.

I would go ahead if I were you and call SS today/tomorrow morning first thing.

HellesBelles396 Sun 20-Jan-13 11:19:05

Definitely, and, if you feel able to, you could speak to the parents of the other girls and let them know what you're doing.

FairPhyllis Sun 20-Jan-13 11:24:26

Holy shit OP. Looks like this school has an endemic culture of sexual abuse.

I would phone police/social services today. I know the kids are under the age of criminal responsibility, but I think calling the police would still be appropriate and will guarantee SS involvement.

teacherwith2kids Sun 20-Jan-13 11:37:33

Admission
"Firstly I would say in relation to your daughter. It is not the first time from your posts that something that is sexual in nature has happened to her, so when you take it further it is almost for sure you are going to have to accept that there will be some kind of come back to you, your daughter and your family."

Would it be possible to summarise the earlier issues, OP? It might help to put your worries, e.g. about how it might come back onto your daughter / you, into context?

Fucking hell. Something needs to be done about that child and that school.

Phone SS immediately and don't let it drop! This is very, very disturbing!

sunnyday123 Sun 20-Jan-13 11:39:56

I'm actually more shocked that 7(!!!!!) parents think its ok to put a 5 yr old back in that environment! I wouldn't care what those other parents say - it seems there is some sort of acceptance of this being normal childhood behaviour which is pretty disgusting! There's no way I'd return my 5 year old child to a school like this, no way in a million years!

musicalfamily Sun 20-Jan-13 11:42:20

It could also be that the 7 girls in question didn't tell the parents the whole story..............

mrz Sun 20-Jan-13 11:55:10

or that parents worried what the neighbours might think

sunnyday123 Sun 20-Jan-13 12:15:57

I still can't understand why any of the initial parents reaction was not to phone the police or social services straight away! Ok in reality the police may not charge or anything but I'd imagine they'd take it seriously and initiate some sort of process? I wonder because its gone on for a while and played down by the school, that its become less shocking over time? I remember as a child one of the girls in my year had her knickers pulled down at age 8 and the whole town knew about it!

My initial reaction would not have been to liase with school but to go the police - common sense about who actually deals with it would have come later but initial anger and the thought of that happening to my dd would have me on the phone straight away.

Op please do something now and not be swayed by school or other parents- this is your dd and your responsibility to keep her safe. Already it's progressed from showing her bum to touching. This should have been dealt with by all the parents last year when it started.

Lost4anything Sun 20-Jan-13 13:13:36

Well, last year , when DD was in Reception, I heard from a friend who has a son then in Y1 that boys in Y1 were showing their parts to girls and that there was this "show me yours" culture. A week later DD told me that a group of boys and girls from Y1 pulled her knickers down to see her bottom. I took this incident in context of this "show me yours". I reported it to the reception teacher stressing that I find this unacceptable. She looked taking it very seriously. She investigated and told that there was inappropriate "sillinesss" going on in Y1 and the school dealt with it. Indeed they had some discussions with parents and lessons in Y1 to put this "silliness" under control, although I don't exactly know what. That was last year. I kept asking DD about anyone looking at her bottom and she didn't report anything until last week.

This year, I personally observed almost every day after school how Y2 girls and boy tease each-other that "boyfriends" should kiss "girlfriends" and I even heard words like "make love" , or was it "have sex"? I rejected this as a hallucination, I suppose. I was uncomfortable with this discourse of some children, in this years Y2 for a while. I don't know how Y1-Y2 children get to know those things.

Before I heard about the finger incident, I spoke with a number of mums from Y2 at a social gathering. They were aware apparently of the obsession with kissing, looking at bottoms and of the language used. They dismissed it as children didn't understand any of it in their opinion. They told me there was "boyfriend" culture, where boys were competing to have "girlfriends", some more than one, and if a boy kissed a girl's hand it meant they were "engaged". One mother told me my DD had a boyfriend and her body language as she was saying that made me uncomfortable. Other parents speculated how innocent older year groups were. The general mood was that it was all innocent and cute.

In my view this early sexualisation would make them explore things they don't need to and can't put in proper context at their age. There is also peer pressure to participate in this.

This was before the finger incident, which puts it all in a different light.

My DD told me the detail about the incident in several installments as it were. So I agree that maybe other girls didn't tell their parents all the detail. Or maybe the parents just are in denial, like I was, and minimize this as mere cute silliness.

I certainly view this as a culture of sexual assault and group bullying, an inappropriate sexualisation that clearly gone beyond anything innocent. One wonders how a 5-7 years old get to know about fingers.

lunar1 Sun 20-Jan-13 13:30:40

I would ring ss and the police, without hesitation. Good luck op I hope it is taken seriously

hermioneweasley Sun 20-Jan-13 13:40:38

Lost4, agree with the others who say raise hell about this. The behaviour needs to stop before your daughter gets left with issues, but I am more concerned about the boy who must be exposed (as a minimum) to adult content materials for that behaviour and vocab.

greenfolder Sun 20-Jan-13 15:27:28

Honestly I would remove my child from this school immediately, I really would. This is not normal.

Highlander Sun 20-Jan-13 18:02:58

Your daughter is spending most of her day in a place where sexual assualt is accepted.

If you fail to protect her now, there is a cery real probability that she'll grow up accepting that this is how males treat females.

Police, SS ASAP. GP for counselling for her.

LineRunner Sun 20-Jan-13 19:33:19

I don't think your 5 year old DD can really know what other mothers told their DDs. That's for the police and SS to worry about and investigate.

Please just do report this to the police in the way that you have explained it to us.

snowybrrr Mon 21-Jan-13 08:58:22

I would be absolutely horrified that this could happen in the school playground without any staff seeing.These are all very young children who need to be properly supervised.Six boys pulling a girls tights down should have been noticed.
Have you spoken to the other parents? If you have corroboration by another parent that this has happened to their daughter, the school can't turn round and say your DD is making it up.
Please keep us posted -this is horrifying!

LemonBreeland Mon 21-Jan-13 09:20:12

OP I would be horrified and furious in equal measure. What is wrong with these parents that they are so unconcerned about it. I would not be sending my child back there until it was sorted. Please call SS and call the HT and tell them you want it fully investigated.

Lavenderhoney Mon 21-Jan-13 09:27:47

I would stop using the expression " culture" and use the term " inappropriate behaviour which is rife in the school"

Culture could mean somewhere it's considered the norm and it should not be used as it can be misinterpreted and acceptance of a way of doing things.
Am also amazed no other parents seem to have done anything. Even the boys parents should know and be given an opportunity to stop their sons.

How did you get on today op?

Lost4anything Mon 21-Jan-13 09:57:31

School is closed for snow.

piprabbit Mon 21-Jan-13 10:20:08

Maybe call the NSPCC for advice then?

GW297 Mon 21-Jan-13 10:22:30

It is a safeguarding issue. The school has a duty of care towards both the boys and your daughter.

wheresthebeach Mon 21-Jan-13 10:24:59

Agree with the others - call SS today. This is appaulling and will only get worse if it's not stopped.

drjohnsonscat Mon 21-Jan-13 10:45:14

Of course this is sexual assault. Your daughter has been sexually assaulted. It doesn't matter to her that it is by another child or that the law doesn't class the perpetrators as sex offenders because they are children. She has still been seriously sexually assaulted.

If it were me, I would not send my daughter back to school and would contact SS immediately until the school take action. I would be surprised if the police had no role here - at least in ensuring that action was taken.

Also I would be talking to my GP about whether there is any counselling available for DD.

This is really awful and I am horrified at the inaction by the responsible authorities.

piprabbit Mon 21-Jan-13 10:57:47

I think that the school being closed today gives you the breathing space to talk to other agencies today and make a plan of action for what you need to do tomorrow and longer term.

You can still write to the school today as you planned to, you can email the head (I'd be surprised if he wasn't in the office, even if the school is closed). However, having read back through your posts, you seem to only see this as a school problem while most posters have said they think the school seems to be ill-equipped to handle the issue effectively and you need independent support. Maybe today you can find some RL independent support?

BuiltForComfort Mon 21-Jan-13 11:25:30

You should also contact the Governors - Chair and whichever governor has designated safeguarding responsibilities. Hopefully the details should be on the school's website.

iseenodust Mon 21-Jan-13 11:46:03

I would send an email to the school today outlining all your concerns. I would be clear in it that my child was not returning to school until measures to address these behaviours are in place (investigation, named responsible adults, programme with dates of PHSE sessions for classes). You are also at liberty to report the school to OFSTED because it is bullying as well as sexual.

AndiMac Mon 21-Jan-13 11:56:58

I don't have any more advice to offer, but will offer support that I also would be livid if this happened to my Y1 daughter and would also follow it up every available path. Don't let them brush you off with a comment that it's just silliness.

snowybrrr Mon 21-Jan-13 12:25:36

Yes and please talk to the other parents.If there have been reports to the school before of this type of thing, the agencies need to know.

FairPhyllis Mon 21-Jan-13 12:37:56

I second the posts about not sending your daughter back to that school btw. She may not understand what has happened, but you have to protect her from being sexually assaulted again.

I would also take advice about specialist counselling.

steppemum Mon 21-Jan-13 12:39:27

Op
just to add my voice ot those saying it os totally out of order.
Any child touching anothers sexual parts is considered to be an incident.The context you give makes it worse (in that it was deliberate)

I would be livid. As a teacher I once had a child in my class who was excluded when he did this repeatedly to the gilrs. The school felt it could not safeguard the girls properly when he couldn't stop. (he had other issues, but that was the crunch point) That is how serious it is.

The boyfriend thing while annoying and innapropriate is a distraction. The boys pulling down girls knickers and sticking fingers in is a big problem.

Please get some support (NSPCC?)
Ask to talk to teacher. If not happy, tell he you would like to refer to head, when make an appointment with head, ask if the member of staff responsible for safeguarding can be present. Ask for their policy on safeguarding.

Your daughter has been sexually assaulted. Other girls are at risk. Please don't let them shrug you off

learnandsay Mon 21-Jan-13 14:01:43

SS should have had a chance to give their opinion on this by now.

sunnyday123 Mon 21-Jan-13 14:07:36

Have SS been contacted yet op?

MsMoppet Mon 21-Jan-13 14:40:35

I would like to add my voice to those cautioning about escalation from this behaviour as the children get older. At my primary school, aged 5-6yrs I would sit at the top of the climbing frame at break times to avoid the boys. I saw them in packs chasing a girl onto the sports field and pulling their knickers down. This happened regularly and I don't know details as I was never caught. I left at 6yrs old. A friend who continued there said that kids were "having sex" in the toilets by age 10-11yrs. I can't say whether that was true but it scared the shit out of me. This is obviously highly anecdotal but I just think proves the point that whatever you might think/hope couldn't possibly be happening at the school, could be.

Lost4anything Mon 21-Jan-13 16:41:21

Of course this behaviour will escalate into sex in the toilets. It came to this because last year they didn't do enough about boys pulling down knickers.

SS will kick the ball back to the school. The boy's parents will blame everyone else, will promise everything and SS will blame them mildly and ask to not do it again.

The broader picture here is a general sexualisation of children. Yes, some children might be abused, but most likely it happens through older siblings and internet. How do I know they are not having sex in the toilets in Y1 in the next posh school or in the next failing school?

The only local school with places (and closest to us) is a failing school in special measures for 3 years where 25% of pupils are travelers bused to school from 40 miles arround. Another 10% are children from families known to SS from local council estates. I know because a friend of mine worked with this vulnerable children and knows the environment in that school. Nobody knows where DD will be safer.

What infuriates me most, is that my daughter is a victim and she is the one to be punished. I want this boy kicked out of the school, not my daughter being taken out. The question is can the school come hard on this rife behavior and stamp it out. Or is it an irreversible descent in hell?

piprabbit Mon 21-Jan-13 16:50:53

It sounds like you are looking for a discussion on the early sexualisation of children, instead of taking action to to protect your DD and the other children in the school.

There are over 100 messages on this thread, all advising that you take quick, positive action. I can't see that you have done, or are planning to do anything.

Branleuse Mon 21-Jan-13 17:00:09

id be thinking that the boys had been exposed to porn or had been sexually abused themselves tbh.

Theres no way a 6 year old would think to feel inside another childs bottom otherwise, and I think this should be immediately flagged up, and in most cases would.

Whilst you are waiting for the school to reopen it may be an idea to give the NSPCC a ring for some guidance and just someone to give you a sounding board. You don't need to give any specific information like names or addresses but they will listen to all of your concerns and offer support. I found them very helpful and impartial whilst keeping it all grounded for me. I had cause to ring them after my youngest DD was sexually abused by a child in our family who was 11 at the time. Many others wanted to say things like 'its normal, kids learn like that, its all part of growing up, etc" Well it's not. Because one person says its normal for their life doesn't make it normal for somebody else's life. You may feel like a lonely voice trying to be heard, people may shout you down or try to make you out to be some kind of vindictive drama queen but you are NOT and you must get yourself heard. Our family has been torn apart by what others perceived as 'normal childhood behaviour'. But having been a victim of sexual abuse myself as a child and never been able to tell I refused to keep silent after it happened to my daughter. We have lost contact with a lot of our family and most of our friends that we had known for years as they felt we were over-reacting.

Regardless of the age of criminality what has happened to your daughter is assault and it is your daughter's safety and welfare that should be safeguarded now (as well as other children).

It is not a rite of passage that girls have to endure some kind of kiss chase game, have their knickers pulled down or constantly have bra straps pulled by inquisitive boys. Yet some parents seem to think it is. Children have to be taught to respect each other's personal space, thereby learning respect for their peers.

I hope you and your daughter get the support you need.

Wotnow Mon 21-Jan-13 17:03:38

If you look up the world health org definition of rape, your daughter has been raped by this boy if be put his finger into her anus of vagjna/ vulva

I think you need to take some action

Cantbelieveitsnotbutter Mon 21-Jan-13 17:17:43

Oh my gosh your poor daughter.
Did you get a chance today to speak to anyone today?

Gotta say if she was mine she wouldn't be going back until they can safe guard her (and the others) the schools failed to protect your daughter. I shudder to think of the next step that will inevitably follow.

Passthesherry Mon 21-Jan-13 17:40:07

Adding my voice that in no way should behaviour like that be passed off as 'silliness' and not taken seriously. The boy took your dd's tights down and put his finger in her bottom! That's sexual assault. Alarm bells would certainly ring about the perpetrator's exposure to sex acts at such a young age too. Very disturbing.

FWIW I too have a 5yo dd in Yr1 - and there is no way on earth something like that would be passed off as 'cute' or just a bit of 'silliness'. Not all school cultures are the same, as in dd's school the atmosphere is very much on chase games, tag, and the boys/ girls play very well, in an innocent and non-sexualised manner. Last year in Reception there was a bit of "I'm going to marry so-and-so!" along with hand-holding, and sitting together etc. - but that seems to have passed into more sporty/teamworky games now. I do believe this is partly due to the school's way of emphasising respect and co-operation. It's an outstanding, inner city state school.

Anyway, I find your dd's school's lack of response - tbh, it's a complete negation and denial of your claims (as if just because the alleged perpetrators denied it, it needs no further investigation?!) to be pretty awful and unsupportive, more about covering their own backs. What messages are being quietly passed on to pupils here? It's a huge betrayal of trust, and it would not give me confidence in continuing to send my child there.

I would keep her off school until this is sorted and contact NSPCC for advice/support, SS, police even, if you get no joy from the school. Tell your daughter she has not done anything wrong, but the school needs to make sure it doesn't happen again.

I would be sending a letter detailing times, dates and details of what happened, and your concerns to the Head Teacher, board of Governors, copied to the Inspectors, and asking what course of action was being taken to prevent these incidents being repeated yet again (given something had already happened before). Yes - I would be causing a right stink!

Cantbelieveitsnotbutter Mon 21-Jan-13 17:54:32

If it was my son I'd be mortified he'd done it, petrified why he knew to do it and lastly thankful we knew before it got worse so we could nip it in the bud before his behaviour escalated.

sunnyday123 Mon 21-Jan-13 19:18:42

I agree totally piprabbit - if I kne the school I'd be on the phone myself!

teacherwith2kids Mon 21-Jan-13 19:26:55

PasstheSherry,

I am not absolutely sure that the school has 'done nothing' about this incident - there is no evidence that the OP has spoken to the school or anyone else about it at all as yet....which I find very odd indeed, if this is a real event concerning a real child which happened exactly as described....

HellesBelles396 Mon 21-Jan-13 19:27:26

tbh, I was wondering whether to email mnhq and suggest they refer this to ss as I am concerned - extremely concerned - that OP does not seem to have done so.

learnandsay Mon 21-Jan-13 19:30:21

Presumably she has her reasons for taking the time that she's taking.

teacherwith2kids Mon 21-Jan-13 19:33:36

I suppose as time goes by - I can understand that she might not have wanted to contact SS over the weekend, though they do of course have emergency numbers for just such events, but not to speak to someone today is beginning to seem rather odd - I am beginning to wonder what those reasons might be? Especially as she has been back to this thread to try to broaden the debate, but not to indicate that she has addressed the core issue of her child's safety. There is also a post from admission which refers to other posts from the same poster, though I cannot find them under the same username in search.

mrz Mon 21-Jan-13 19:34:39

Is there any good reason why a mother would hesitate to report a sexual assault on her child?

teacherwith2kids Mon 21-Jan-13 19:35:18

Exactly, mrz.

traintracks Mon 21-Jan-13 19:44:43

I know from previous experience at work that the police and social services will be interested, not least as to whether the instigator has been sexually abused

jomidmum Mon 21-Jan-13 19:46:07

I think you should contact the police safeguarding team directly yourself. My DD was subjected to ongoing sexual harassment by a boy in her class in year 3 and although the school investigated (and the police were contacted) nothing positive resulted and we withdrew her from the school. If anything physical of the nature you describe had happened, I would have gone to the police myself. It can take a lot of courage to go direct yourself, but looking back at what happened with DD, I wouldn't hesitate if anything of that nature happened again.

LineRunner Mon 21-Jan-13 19:51:53

I don't know if MNHQ will intervene but somebody needs to.

LineRunner Mon 21-Jan-13 19:52:20

I don't know if MNHQ will intervene but somebody needs to.

learnandsay Mon 21-Jan-13 19:54:25

What do you suggest we do?

mrz Mon 21-Jan-13 20:02:39
learnandsay Mon 21-Jan-13 20:08:14

We don't know who the victim is.

LineRunner Mon 21-Jan-13 20:09:42

I was musing on HellesBelles's post, a few up ^^ .

ThePathanKhansWitch Mon 21-Jan-13 20:12:22

Something deeply uncomfortable and disturbing about this thread.

A child has been assaulted in a place where they should be safe.

OP has been advised brilliantly and urged to take action.

Many posters have given highly personal and upsetting details, concerning either themselves, their children/family members.

It seems OP is yet to act...

learnandsay Mon 21-Jan-13 20:18:13

Well, we don't know what she's doing. It might have been nice if she'd said a bit more this morning rather than the school is closed because of the snow.

FamiliesShareGerms Mon 21-Jan-13 20:21:01

OP, if you are still there...

The first duty of a parent is to keep their child safe. There are lots of other basic needs to meet too, of course, but the most fundamental one is ensuring that they are safe.

Your daughter has told you that she has been sexually assaulted. What she has described is not playground jinx or an incident to be brushed off as "cute", it is serious.

By worrying about what others might say, or delaying talking to the head because of the snow, or worrying that a school with a large traveller community might be the only other option (and that would be worse than the current school) you are delaying taking action to protect your daughter. You are failing your daughter through your inactivity.

Is this clear?

I don't often get cross with MN threads, but this inertia on your part, OP, has riled me.

I'm leaving the thread now.

I have to admit that when we first discovered what had happened to DD who was 3 at the time our reaction kept veering from shock to disbelief....it kept changing by the hour...the processing of information takes time when you consider all the issues. At the beginning you do wonder if it's an over reaction on your part because it seems SO unbelieveable....this kind of thing happens to other people.....not you.

Perhaps the OP is struggling to get her head around what has happened...?

Passthesherry Mon 21-Jan-13 20:22:48

teacherwith2kids - Oh I see. The way I read it was that even though OP hasn't directly mentioned a discussion with the school, but she referred to incidents last year, which resulted in a few talks and some measures being taken.

Presumably the HT will have been involved with that - though may not be aware of this particular incident, true enough.

Perhaps OP is in a bit of denial herself - she posted to check out her response, and the overwhelming feedback without exception has said it should be taken VERY seriously, but the advice may be even more drastic than she anticipated. She may be waiting to see the Head Teacher when school re-opens, to try and salvage some sort of future that includes her dd staying in the same school.

tricot39 Mon 21-Jan-13 21:21:02

teacherwith2kids it seems that the posts you cannot find would answer your questions. Op is waiting for school to "investigate further" but school shut for snow for 2 days. Hence delay.

Op i would also wait for school to reply but unless they report to ss and investigate fully. If not then i would call ss myself. I would keep dd off until ss investigate to your satisfaction. If there are other allegations then you will probably discover that other parents have been fobbed off.

I am sorry that you feel that you have no school choices but you should visit the other school to see it. You may find it is a safer environment for your dd even if not your ideal educational preference. If not happy still then presumably moving or home ed are the only alternatives. i dont think i could keep my child there - i am feeling a bit ill about it all on your behalf!

Good luck

teacherwith2kids Mon 21-Jan-13 21:27:01

Ah, sorry, I was referring to admission's earlier post:

"It is not the first time from your posts that something that is sexual in nature has happened to her, so when you take it further it is almost for sure you are going to have to accept that there will be some kind of come back to you, your daughter and your family."

I had assumed - possibly incorrectly - that this referred back to earlier threads by the same poster, though I appreciate that I may have misunderstood this and that admission may purely have been referring back to similar but milder incidents in a previous school year, which the OP had mentioned earlier in the thread.

I would second the idea of looking at the other school. Sometimes schools which have more challenging intakes are actually safer places because of increased vigilance and experience of staff, while those who see themselves as 'having no problem in a school like ours' are less likely to respond in the robust fashion needed when a propblem occurs. Travellers are, in my experience as a teacher of many, very, very protective of the safety of their children when outside the family unit so any school with high trust in the traveller population is likely to be a very 'overtly safe' place.

teacherwith2kids Mon 21-Jan-13 21:28:40

[Potential ambiguity - I mean 'a school which is held in high trust by the traveller population', ie a school which traveller familes trust and will send their children to in the belief that it will be safe.]

steppemum Mon 21-Jan-13 22:30:03

I agree teacher, I often think tough inner city schools are much better at hadnling these sort of things as they have to be really on the ball

snowybrrr Tue 22-Jan-13 09:24:08

' this inertia on your part, OP, has riled me.'

but the OP has raised the matter with the school.The boys all denied it and so they are investigating further (Since then the school has been closed)
.She has not done nothing!! Under safeguarding guidelines where there is an allegation of abuse the school have to report it to the appropriate agencies, they have no discretion in the matter.

sunnyday123 Tue 22-Jan-13 11:14:37

To be honest I'm starting to wonder if this is a real event.... I just can't believe the op hasn't done anything significant. Trying to engage in discussions about child sexualisation etc should not really be her priority right now. And as for discussions with the school, I don't know one parent who wouldn't have been straight on the phone to the police in this kind of incident!

I don't believe it's true that 7 sets of parents of daughters didnt think this was serious enough to contact police or social services... especially in this "leafy school environment". If it is real, it's very worrying indeed and gives insight into how abuse goes on and one for ages before anything is done about it.

can mumsnet not do some sort of trace as the thought of this happening and seemingly getting brushed aside is disgraceful.

snowybrrr Tue 22-Jan-13 11:53:45

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

It makes me feel ill to think that someone would lie about this kind of thing, especially when I see the damage it has done to mine and other families.

I share experiences on this board in the hope that it will help others in some little way but sometimes I wonder what the point is when people start doubting the validity of someone's post.

Phoebe47 Tue 22-Jan-13 13:45:54

We had an issue in the school I used to teach in when a boy sexually assaulted another boy. They were both six years old. It was immediately reported to Social Services who took it seriously and investigated the family of the perpetrator. It turned out that the child was allowed to stay up until the parents went to bed and that the parents spent the evening watching films many of which were pornographic. The child had seen the films too and had been acting out what he had seen. The parents also took drugs and the child saw this too but did not share in it. SS took it very seriously and the family were monitored over a long period of time with the threat of having the child removed if the behaviour continued. However, he did have to be closely monitored in the playground (as he did try to molest a child there) and was accompanied when he went to the toilet (by an adult waiting for him outside the door) and used the disabled toilet as then the adult could be sure he was the only one in there. This boy was as much a victim as the child he abused and both needed a lot of support after the incident. The school should be taking the incidents at your DD's s school seriously and I feel there must be some serious issues in this school if they do not do so.

Phoebe47 Tue 22-Jan-13 13:57:02

And as regards traveller children the ones that attended the school I worked in were lovely and the parents were too. A couple of the boys could be a bit challenging but so were some of the non traveller children. Certainly would rather my children shared a school with them than going to a school that does not keep children safe - where were the staff when the child was assaulted?

Lavenderhoney Tue 22-Jan-13 14:04:43

It's irrelevant the school is shut. Phones still work and so does email. Op, You can call all the agencies and contacts advised by more experienced posters. And email the school what you have done. Plus move her to another school. Any school is better than the one she is at. It's hardly a " naice" environment is it?

Personally I wouldnt leave it up to the school to manage it. It's too serious to be swept under the carpet.

If the op does nothing then she too IMO is enabling assault on her dd. by do nothing I mean moan at the head then sit and wait for someone else to protect her dd.

snowybrrr Tue 22-Jan-13 14:55:35

Of course it's not irrelevant.
They will have to interview the boys involved and any witnesses to find out what actually happened.

piggywigwig Tue 22-Jan-13 16:05:38

SparkleSoiree
I have to admit that when we first discovered what had happened to DD who was 3 at the time our reaction kept veering from shock to disbelief....it kept changing by the hour...the processing of information takes time when you consider all the issues. At the beginning you do wonder if it's an over reaction on your part because it seems SO unbelieveable....this kind of thing happens to other people.....not you.

Perhaps the OP is struggling to get her head around what has happened...?

Having gone through something similar as I've already posted ^ I know what you mean. It's very easy to think you know what you'd do, if it ever happened to you...but when it actually does happen to you, you get thrown completely off balance...for ages, believe me. Unless it's happened to you, you can't ever know how it's going to effect you or your child, or the course of action you choose to take in whatever time-frame

boredSAHMof4 Tue 22-Jan-13 16:50:53

I am inclined to wonder whether the little girl has perhaps been 'led' with her questioning.I cannot believe for 1 minute that 7 girls have been anally penetrated in the playground and :-
(1) no adult has seen it
(2) no child in the playground has seen and reported it to an adult (they are athe peak 'telling tales ' age)
(3) no victim has reported it to adult at school despite having told their friends (ie OPs daughter) about it
(4) OPs dd hasn't mentionedi it to her parents before now
and most of all
(5) that all these girls mummies know about it and have done nothing.

Finally and this might be TMI but I have recently had to administer a suppository to an unco operative toddler .It is not that easy I am not sure it would have been possible with child stood up straight and 'hobbled' by a pair of tights

I am not doubting that something has happened but I would be asking round the parents of MY child's friends first to see what they know.

mrz Tue 22-Jan-13 16:52:54

They will have to interview the boys involved and any witnesses to find out what actually happened.
They can do that in the home if school is closed.

BoredSAHMof4 The whole culture of inappropriate sexual behaviour is steeped in secrecy and the prevention of information getting out. I only found out what happened to my child by accident and I didn't tell my parents until I was an adult about how I was sexually abused.

It really isn't too difficult to imagine how these events can be kept secret for years after they happen. If it was easy to spot then we could save a lot of children from sexual abuse by adults and other children.

boredSAHMof4 Tue 22-Jan-13 17:26:00

Ok well, it is all the more important these 7 girls are interviewed then. If this can happen so many times in the short time the Ops child has been at school, the bloody place needs closing down .they clearly are failing abysmally in their duty of care towards the children

Absolutely agree with you.

Moominsarehippos Tue 22-Jan-13 17:47:30

I would go bloody mad. A child should not be touched.

I would speak to the child and also to some other parents (to see if others are worried about behaviour and see how far it goes). Children do exaggerate though - my friend ran a nursery and one child twanged another's elasticated trouser waistband with the handle of his plastic spade. Next thing the mum was at the school about her child having a spade handle shoved up his bum.

I would ask for a meeting with the teacher and the Head. I would copy the board of governors in with the request (with a basic outline of the agenda) and your local community police officer. They will know that you mean business. Don't name names but make it clear what the accusations are about and that you will tale this as far as you can.

What is your 'ideal' outcome?

boredSAHMof4 Wed 23-Jan-13 22:22:52

no update?

learnandsay Wed 23-Jan-13 22:44:04

I think the rest of the world has been kept out of the loop in this particular case.

BluelightsAndSirens Wed 23-Jan-13 23:03:06

I reported this thread the day it started so HQ are aware.

Very good point raised about the reaction to the action.

Also can't understand the under reaction from the op and the school and stand by my first post of contacting the police for advice and reporting to SS.

I don't understand why the school being closed impacts on the op taking action, if this was my DD - I have a 4 yr old DD I would be all over this with every agency I could find like a rash after falling into stinging nettles head first.

BluelightsAndSirens Wed 23-Jan-13 23:03:53

*advice

learnandsay Wed 23-Jan-13 23:11:39

Well, yes. But maybe the OP doesn't think that typing stuff into mumsnet at this point is the best use of her time.

mrz Thu 24-Jan-13 07:18:05

She certainly didn't think that way when she started this thread

TheFallenNinja Thu 24-Jan-13 07:35:41

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

GrannyRatOnAScooter Thu 24-Jan-13 10:50:15

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

GrannyRatOnAScooter Thu 24-Jan-13 10:52:10

Sorry Bluelights just seen that you reported last night. Did MNHQ come back to you?

RebeccaMumsnet (MNHQ) Thu 24-Jan-13 11:25:11

Hi all,

Many thanks to everyone who has reported this thread to us and for the wonderful advice support and links that you have shared to help the OP in this awful situation.

As far as we can see the OP is above board, can we please ask you to contact us with your concerns in the future rather troll hunting on the main Talk boards.

If the poster is a troll, you are giving them the attention they so desperately require and if they aren't, you could cause untold hurt to someone in a vulnerable position.

Many thanks

MNHQ

GrannyRatOnAScooter Thu 24-Jan-13 11:51:00

Thanks Rebecca we'll have to wait and see if the OP comes back.

Op, if you're still reading, I would urge you to heed the sound advice given by the many posters for the sake of protecting your child and the safety of others in the class.

AndiMac Thu 31-Jan-13 20:50:10

Any updates Lost4?

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