Learning to read in Y1 & Y2

(312 Posts)
learnandsay Sat 24-Nov-12 19:38:33

How unusual is it for a primary school to focus its attention in YR on teaching the letter sounds, maybe some digraphs, perhaps one or two trigraphs (or maybe not even) and learning (whatever that means) lists of HFW, but not to any great extent turn attention to reading actual books (of any kind)?

And the school thereby, presumably, places the emphasis of learning to read books (of whatever kind) onto Y1 and beyond? And, if one's school has such a system how does one approach it if one's child already reads books quite well and has done throughout Reception? Getting the Reception teacher up to speed with the child's reading has taken a while, but it's getting there. Does one expect to have to introduce every teacher at every early years level to the child's ability to read?

Tgger Sat 24-Nov-12 19:47:58

No. They do talk to each other you know smile. Although, having said that DS's Y1 teacher gave him a very easy book as his first book. The second book was the same as the level he left YR at and now he is bringing home a selection of books, some a bit easier than the ones he reads at home, some about the same. He enjoys the easier ones and we take longer over the harder ones, interspersing them with our own stuff. As he is reading fluently it's more a decision on subject matter/diffiiculty of comprehension/different styles etc now. I made an appointment to have a chat with his teacher about his reading, and this helped us both get on the same page so to speak. That worked for me smile.

learnandsay Sat 24-Nov-12 20:00:31

OK, thanks, Tgger. I'm kind of worried that it's not so much that they don't talk to each other, more that they have a system of some kind and it expects to deal with "this kind of child." So far it seems to have come as something of a surprise to them to see a child that could read. I've heard it said that it's unusual for children to arrive in Reception already reading. But I wouldn't have expected it to be a shock. And I would have expected the response to have been to give the child books to read. But that's only just started happening, (well, depending on what one calls books, hasn't quite happened yet.) But, yes, I think I might try and have a chat as we enter Y1, just in case it's necessary.

simpson Sat 24-Nov-12 20:02:11

Most of DD's reception class are learning their sounds (although the nursery attached to the school did a lot of the basic ones last year - but there will be kids who did not attend the school nursery iyswim).

All of the kids have now got reading books but vary from ORT stage 2 down to sound books. Each child also gets a jolly phonics book with words with a certain sound to practice.

DD has a yellow jolly phonics book to read which is fine (a bit too easy tbh but not alarmingly so) but these books seem to be a series of pictures with several sentences underneath to read but don't link to each other so no story if that makes sense.

The school seem to have a pretty good idea of what DD can do (she is encouraged to take in books from home to read once a week). It seems quite rare in my DC school to have a child starting school able to read well (not on MN though wink). There are 2 kids out of 90 who are good readers (DD is one of them) and the school are very good at differentiating for them, I could not be happier tbh...

simpson Sat 24-Nov-12 20:04:24

Forgot to say I also do a work placement in another school in reception and there are 120 kids in 4 classes and none of them can read yet....

ilikenoodles Sat 24-Nov-12 20:09:12

I've been told there is two out of 90 reception kids who can read in my Ds's year, my son is one, I believe they have one or two per year who can ready very well usually

learnandsay Sat 24-Nov-12 20:10:31

Hello, simpson. I fished an old thread out of G&T about children that can already read in Reception for you below in this group. It's got lots of lovely info about series books.

I envy you a little in that your daughter was already in a nursery attached to the school and also has the same teacher as she had in nursery. So it's understandable that her teacher knows what she can do. It's also sensible that they have a system for progressing reading children from nursery, (if they teach them to read there,) even if it involves some overlap. Presumably not all their children come from their nursery. So it makes sense that their system caters for everybody. But the point is that your school seems to have a system for Reception children who can read, whereas mine doesn't appear to. And I'm just wondering what that means if they don't have a system for Y1 children who can read pretty much anything either....

ilikenoodles Sat 24-Nov-12 20:17:00

hmm i wonder that too...

Tgger Sat 24-Nov-12 20:18:08

In DS's Y1 class he and another boy can read fluently. Then the next group is reading about ORT 6 I think.... (but will probably catch up DS and the other boy by Christmas).

So, you can see that the teacher gears the reading/phonics to the main body of the class. But... at the same time they will differentiate for children who need levels higher/lower. In my experience they are open to chatting to parents and getting it right per child if you can work with them.. and be sensitive to demands on their time etc smile.

Just fyi in YR I was also concerned that DS would get the right attention for his level of reading etc when the class were learning quite simple phonics. It did take a few conversations with the teacher to get him on the right level and I decided myself to plug the gaps in his phonics myself rather than waiting for the class as they were going very slowly (mrz has posted how she teaches the phonics as the children need them, but in DS's class it was slower geared to the whole class so not so good for DS). Perhaps if I had been more chilled out I could have left it to the teacher and DS would be with the rest of the class in his reading but as he was keen and raring to go, trying to figure out the code for himself I decided to do it myself. grin.

The other child in his class reading fluently has a Mum who is Secondary school English teacher......

mrz Sat 24-Nov-12 20:24:59

Most secondary school English teachers admit they know nothing about teaching very young children to read (or any children for that matter)Tgger even some KS2 find it a mystery wink

Tgger Sat 24-Nov-12 20:26:33

Yeah, but perhaps they love books and manage to teach their child like I did..it's not rocket science...grin. I did learn the phonics alongside DS though.. and I do teach young children music so I know a bit about how their brains work...

TwoHats Sat 24-Nov-12 20:28:24

DS1 started reception able to read (I've not asked if there are others in his year so I don't know), his teacher has been really good at giving him fun books, which haven't been based on the reading scheme levels. DS1 has a lot of work to do to get his writing up to a similar standard to his reading, so he participates in the basic sounds phonic group sessions, but is given a task relating to writing the letters while other groups spend more time practising reading the sounds. The aims in his reading diary have been a mix of comprehension of the story, writing and drawing.

I'm really happy with the approach DS's school are taking, it is a class of 30 but there still seems to be time to deal with the individual needs of each child.

simpson Sat 24-Nov-12 20:30:22

LandS - is the thread in G&T??

I think DD and this other little boy are "challenging" the school tbh grin

Deputy Head spoke to me at parents eve and he said he had gone back through the school records and they had not had a child on the level that DD is at (or the other boy before).

She is starting yr1 work after Xmas in all subjects and I am very lucky in that because she is in such a big class (90 in one large room with 3 teachers and 3 TAs) they have allocated one TA just for DD and the other child. She is doing yr1 phonics now. And my concern is that this will not continue through to yr1 (I mentioned this concern at parents eve) as the school have a policy of not letting kids go into higher years for lessons and whilst most subjects can be differentiated in the classroom, phonics can't. So I will wait and see what happens I guess...

TwoHats Sat 24-Nov-12 20:31:00

DS1 started reception able to read (I've not asked if there are others in his year so I don't know), his teacher has been really good at giving him fun books, which haven't been based on the reading scheme levels. DS1 has a lot of work to do to get his writing up to a similar standard to his reading, so he participates in the basic sounds phonic group sessions, but is given a task relating to writing the letters while other groups spend more time practising reading the sounds. The aims in his reading diary have been a mix of comprehension of the story, writing and drawing.

I'm really happy with the approach DS's school are taking, it is a class of 30 but there still seems to be time to deal with the individual needs of each child.

TwoHats Sat 24-Nov-12 20:31:32

Apologies for double post, computer having a funny moment!

learnandsay Sat 24-Nov-12 20:32:40

I don't know. This "they all catch each other up" idea worries me. I don't understand it. If it means "by the end of Y2 they've all learned to decode to a similar level," fine. But if it means they're all at the same reading level then it can't be true because by that time some children have read the whole Angels series, the whole Famous Five series, maybe an Encyclopaedia or two (if they're that way inclined.) Some have read all the staff manuals from NATO. Clearly these children and the ones who are reading about Chip and Biff aren't at the same level even if they can now all decode the word phosphorus.

Tgger Sat 24-Nov-12 20:36:59

Well DS never got put up for phonics or got any special attention. I think he just does the Y1 phonics like anyone else as he did the YR ones, but it's fine as it's great revision for his writing which has improved a lot in Y1. THat's the main difference I've noticed between YR and Y1 actually, more focus on writing, and DS's writing has improved a lot. Still got a way to go, but he's using his phonics much more and able to write a lot more.

DS's teacher told me she hadn't known a child read as well as he does in Y1... she is lovely but quite young so I guess she hasn't seen that many children and I don't think he's that unusual (from MN posts etc.. there is a percentage of children his age that can read as wel as him etc etc). wink.

learnandsay Sat 24-Nov-12 20:37:11
Tgger Sat 24-Nov-12 20:40:49

"they all catch each other up"... well not all, just some..... and sometimes it's a question of maturity as well as how long you've been able to decode. Clearly some children will be ahead, but some who's decoding has only just got up to speed will then be ready to jump straight to chapter books and will have the maturity and inclination (important) to do this independently, and then the world is their oyster grin.

simpson Sat 24-Nov-12 20:44:08

Thanks, I just found it.

I do have some of the books actually. DD loves My Naughty Little Sister but is not too keen on Milly Molly Mandy as she is too good and does not get up to anything naughty (her words hmm).

TBH I am not convinced by the idea that they all catch up as I don't think they do. DD loves to read and has been doing it for longer so surely she will be better at it than a child who is just not that into books ?

That is not to say that a child who does not learn to read until after her (age wise) and loves to do it cannot catch up iyswim.

Likewise DD has zero interest in playing football so is not likely to be that good at it!!

Tgger Sat 24-Nov-12 20:50:10

It's not "they all catch up", but certainly some do, not only "catch up" but overtake and zoom off grin. I've found this with my music teaching too. At 4/5/6 a lot is down to parents. At 7/8/9 the child becomes more independent and those who have the ablility/motivation to will be the readers. These may or not be the children reading fluently at 4/5/6. Earlier is not always better.

Of course I am playing devil's advocate a bit... as I listened to DS read to me tonight I thought how wonderful it was he was enjoying the books he is at age 6 now, whereas his cousin who is 6 months older can't read at all, hence can't read and enjoy.... however... she is very bright, enjoys listening to stories and I won't judge her (she is abroad and hasn't been taught to read).... I would not be surprised if in a couple of years both she and DS are enjoying the same books, and the jury is out on who will be more bookish in the long run...

learnandsay Sat 24-Nov-12 20:50:29

I think it depends on what the child reads.

A child who doesn't read until nine years old and then reads the entire extended set of Encyclopaedia Britannia will know more and be better read than one who learns to read at the age of two but only reads OK Magazine.

mrz Sat 24-Nov-12 20:50:40

In my last reception class I had one boy who could read when school started in September out of a class of 30, some children who knew a few letters but most recognised their own name and that was it. By the end of reception he had been overtaken by 3 or 4 of the children who were complete non readers in September. Not because his reading hadn't improved but because once they grasped the basics everything fell in place.

learnandsay Sat 24-Nov-12 20:55:46

Right, mrz. But are you comparing the newly emboldened readers in your class with yourself at four who was reading an encyclopaedia?

simpson Sat 24-Nov-12 20:56:55

I think the fact that DD taught herself to read stands her in good stead (not bothered if other kids overtake her) because she has obviously shown an early interest in wanting to do it iyswim.

The only thing is she is not interested in non fiction at all and only likes books with a story to it (however vague) which is why she hates her school books.

DS could not read until May time of reception and went through 5 book levels between then and the end of the school year and while he is a good reader he would not actively pick up a fiction book (but would read a football magazine all day!!)

mrz Sat 24-Nov-12 21:01:32

At least one of the children who was a complete non reader in September was quite capable of reading and understanding the Arthur Mees children's encyclopaedias by the end of reception

mrz Sat 24-Nov-12 21:02:42

I should add she was a much better speller than I was

simpson Sat 24-Nov-12 21:02:47

Next year (yr1) I will be pushing for the school to teach her phase 6 (taught in yr2 - don't know how that will go down!!)

I think it will make it easier when in yr2 she has been "officially" taught all the phases she can read to herself or go over everything in the phonics lessons and I can extend her at home rather than her having a yr of repeating what she has learnt before she learns more. It does not make any sense to me for her to have that year gap in her learning iyswim (only talking phonics lessons - I know she will be learning loads of other things).

Tgger Sat 24-Nov-12 21:08:20

errrr..... ok I have clearly taken my eye of the ball as far as all these phonics phases. Quite happy to have though.........as DS can read fluently..... does he know all these phonics phases? No idea, presume so at some level, although his writing is still improving (above average for age though). I guess I am coming to the hands off approach a bit late in the day.. happy to be more hands off for writing somehow (whilst I can see him improving and not having problems etc..)...

learnandsay Sat 24-Nov-12 21:10:18

I'm not quite sure what the "overtake" description involves. But let's suppose (for my sake) that it involves some children being more able to decode than others...

then I'm supposing that the overtaken child couldn't read an encyclopaedia on her own.

But if, (for the sake of argument) the child didn't appear to have (or simply did not have) any difficulties with decoding, and had read Encyclopaedia Britannica and Gibbon's Decline & Fall could, or would, that child be overtaken? And if so, how?

Lougle Sat 24-Nov-12 21:13:23

I am so glad I don't hear this talk in my DD's playground. As long as the children are progressing in the mechanics of reading, the love of learning, and the joy of knowledge, does it matter if they are 1 day, 1 month or 1 year ahead of where they 'should' be??

Tgger Sat 24-Nov-12 21:15:04

No, I don't think it's about decoding after a certain level learnandsay. It becomes about the higher level skills. Comprehension, understanding, inference, interpretation. Ability to read/access any texts that you want to/need to, engage with them, enjoy, understand, interpret.

Tgger Sat 24-Nov-12 21:15:57

There's nothing wrong with talk Lougle. And there's nothing wrong with being good at something. And there's nothing wrong with discussion/debate grin.

learnandsay Sat 24-Nov-12 21:18:46

OK, Tgger. I'm happy as long as people define what they mean. I've seen people happily throwing about terms like "catch up" and "overtake" without ever defining what they meant. It's hard to agree or disagree if you don't know what the other person means.

Tgger Sat 24-Nov-12 21:21:48

fairplay smile

simpson Sat 24-Nov-12 21:23:28

I know there are 6 phases but don't ask me what are in them!!!

And I know phase 6 is taught in yr2 because that is when DS learnt it.

I don't care whether DD is ahead or not but I want her to carry on and progress and I don't think there is anything wrong in wanting that for my child.

BooksandaCuppa Sat 24-Nov-12 21:28:14

I worry that you might be overthinking this, OP. There is nothing to say that just because one child is 'ahead' of her peers at two months into her schooling that she will remain so and will therefore not be challenged.
I say this because in ds's reception year, no children entered able to read but by the end of that year, four of the ten (small school) were what I would call fluent readers. So that's just nine months of teaching (pre synthetic phonics, mind). There's no reason that some of the children in your daughter's class won't catch her up or indeed overtake her or any reason to think (from your other posts/threads) that she's so far ahead that any school wouldn't be able to cater for her reading - or writing - needs in year one. Try not to worry!

learnandsay Sat 24-Nov-12 21:32:57

Yes, simpson. I think this is where the reading debate falls into the big pit that Blueschool, in her post about refusing to re-assess her daughter, is floundering in.

Comprehension, unless there is an objective test of reading learner's comprehension, which can be sat without cost by anyone anywhere, "comprehension" is a how long is a piece of string exercise. I can say she comprehends and another can say no she doesn't, and round and round it goes.

simpson Sat 24-Nov-12 21:38:57

I was in a similar situation that she is now in with DS in yr2.

TBH I just extended at home and kept doing my own thing and nodded to the school sweetly when they raved about how much progress he made at the end of the year!!!

Although I will be at bit more pushy with DD tbh (only for her to learn phonics once she has been taught them at school - I am happy to provide interesting books for her to read etc)...

learnandsay Sat 24-Nov-12 21:48:57

I don't think I'm susceptible to the hole that Blueschool is in (because I think I'd just ignore school books if I met a teacher that stubborn.) But that isn't really why we're here. Is it? We're here because we all want our children to do well. I'd like to think that booksandcuppa was right when she said that there's no reason to think that the school can't cater for my girl. But if it can't cater now (when she's four) why should it be able to cater when she's five or six? She won't be at the same stage then as she is now. She'll have moved on. If she never moved on then of course the school could catch up. But she won't sit still and wait!

Tgger Sat 24-Nov-12 21:52:46

It depends on what you mean by "cater". What do you expect exactly?

learnandsay Sat 24-Nov-12 22:00:40

I think non decodable books (which we're just starting to get now) would be a good start. But there seems to be a promise of going back onto the floppy phonics scheme later on. If that means a lot later on that's fine. But it didn't sound like that. It sounded like back from where we left off. Because the teacher wrote "she has to progress through the scheme in order."

I'll be honest. I could write stories on sheets of A4 paper and illustrate them with matchstick pictures which would do my daughter more good than the phonics readers that she's got so far.

Tgger Sat 24-Nov-12 22:07:46

Ok, so you are still frustrated with the school as there is a mis match between how you think she is reading and what they are giving her. From your posts it sounds like you are getting there re finding a better match though. It's tricky for the school though if they've spotted gaps in her phonics (which are not surprising at her age). It is their job to cover the gaps so she can read fluently, so I am guessing this is the reason for the comments "she has to progress through the scheme in order."
As a comparison I have a very able cellist pupil at one school at the moment. It's tempting to miss out the easy pages with her, but she needs to cover them in order to build up a strong technique and solid note reading skills. Experience shows me I would be doing her no favours if I missed them out, so I am covering them and giving her some interesting little pieces to cover at the same time to keep her stimulated.

onesandwichshort Sat 24-Nov-12 22:17:03

OP from that other thread here.

waves to simpson

I could say a lot but I'm typing on an ipad and its ridiculously laborious. But two things are important enough to persevere with. One is that it matters -all of this about reading levels etc- because they spend so much time on it at this stage. And, for a whole host of reasons, Id like my child to be at school to be educated as much as the other children are.

The second is that yes some children will 'catch up' others, in reading ability. But that won't always be so. DD is in year1 with a reading age 4 to 5 years ahead. If other children 'overtake' that means she will have stagnated for several years. Which we will try and avoid.

And yes, it's just as hard to get their needs met in year 1 as it is in Reception. Schools just don't have the resources to provide properly for outliers (and not all of them like children who don't fit the mould either).

learnandsay Sat 24-Nov-12 22:18:21

Tgger, I don't know. I really don't know. It depends on what they're doing with her. The teacher told me that she "is reading harder books than the ones being sent home." Let's assume she means listening to rather than reading. But OK. And let's suppose she's heard my daughter make mistakes. OK.

Then let's assume (because we don't know,) that the teacher sends home books that she knows my daughter can read easily. (She's trying to boost my daughter's confidence.)

The difference between the books that are being sent home and the books that my daughter reads with me is so large that it's nonsensical. It has become less stupid in the last week now that my daughter has received Ginn readers. They're non decodable and are (in some library estimates) equivalent to the Heinemann story readers that she can also read. The Ginn readers are a lot shorter. But they're supposed to be as "difficult."

So that's a start, anyway.

simpson Sat 24-Nov-12 22:18:54

DD is getting phonetic books and I expect her to for a while tbh.

I would be concerned though if they were not differentiating her work in any way at all and I know I am very lucky (I think due to the new deputy head that has started) in that DD does not do phonics with the rest of the class.

Tgger - I totally get your point re the cellist but you are extending her by giving her extra pieces, LandS's daughter is not getting any extra work/books...

Can you naturally extend her with what homework she gets?? For example DD got some homework this week (not done it yet) in which she has to colour shapes in colour sequences of 2 (ie red, white, red, white etc) but I am going to get DD to do sequences of 4 (still easy but will extend her -well it won't as she knows it but you know what I mean!!)

Can you take any books she reads at home or work she writes to show the teacher??

Tgger Sat 24-Nov-12 22:30:07

Ok, so this is where I differ from you guys. I have a bright child who can read, but apart from wanting school to be aware that he can read and give him appropriate books I am happy to let him be and let the school do what they do.

I differ from onesandwichshort- thanks for joining in by the way!- in that I don't worry about DS stagnating. He is engaged, he is reading, how can he stagnate..... he is probably reading at reading age 7/8. Is there any benefit for him to be reading that much further ahead at this stage when he is still immature in other ways and doesn't have the life experience to deal with more complex literature? Probably not. You follow the child though... onesandwichshort's DD was reading fluently on starting YR. DS reached this stage later in the Summer YR.

And I don't really go for homework and extending children at this age- or at least not via official school ways. This is done more by DH at the tea table grin.

learnandsay Sat 24-Nov-12 22:31:51

Yes, simpson. I think the teacher and I are doing some kind of weird dance that I don't understand (which I think might have something to do with resources, which I don't understand.) But she did say something to me at parents evening about writing stories with my daughter. I didn't quite get it at the time. But since I've read some NCT targets do make more sense. My daughter can write in print, (not in the cursive script the school sent home.) So my daughter and I are now going to write stories and send them to school as requested, just not in cursive script! (The teacher knows that I write things with and for my daughter. She has read them.)

simpson Sat 24-Nov-12 22:36:41

TBH in my DD's case because she has had extension work within the classroom in reception I would be pretty peed off if it is taken away in yr1.

But also if DD was getting for example red level ORT books I would be a bit hmm too.

DD just wants to read and I just let her get on with it ( she reads to me too but is now happy to read to the cats - she has to read to " someone" even if it's a teddy grin)

But as I am not a teacher, I want her to progress obviously and cannot "teach" her the next phonics sounds ( as I don't know how to) and I would rather she learnt to read phonetically as I believe it will help her with spelling etc.

simpson Sat 24-Nov-12 22:37:13

<<waves back at onesandwich>>

learnandsay Sat 24-Nov-12 22:47:22

I'm not 100% sure how my daughter is doing it. But some sounds she clearly spots in similar words, some she works out herself, but above all I think she is a stickler for linguistic order. She's really strict about which members of the family are allowed to use which words. A good example is: we call the supermarket Morrisons moreesonnes. I don't know why we do that; it's to appease the Spanish speakers in our family. But, anyway, my daughter gets upset to the point of crying because "there's no such word as moreesonnes." The child speaks two languages already. But everybody else in the family has to live in a linguistic straightjacket because she says so. (Maybe it will pass!)

Tgger Sat 24-Nov-12 22:47:28

Fairplay simpson smile. Maybe I felt more confident teaching DS the phonics he needed myself due to being a music teacher... vaguely transferable skills...... I just got those rather dull RWI leaflets and went through them.......

I am not entirely sure what DS gets up to in the classroom in Y1 but he seems happy and engaged and I had a very positive parents evening..... also if he knows all the phonics now (which your DD may do by Y1?) then actually it's quite nice for him to stay in his class with his peers for the short time they do it and go over it...well he doesn't seem to mind..........

simpson Sat 24-Nov-12 22:55:50

DD taught herself the basics and I taught her oo,ou/ow,igh etc etc.

But don't think I know enough about alternative spellings in phonics to be able to teach her the next stage iyswim.

So would rather someone who knows what they are doing does it blush

Tgger Sat 24-Nov-12 23:04:00

Fair enough- probably wise. As I said you can just follow those RWI books, or maybe you've covered a lot already? Trying to remember..... ai, oi, oo (as in wood), maybe you've done those? ir (as in "shirt"), ar....

these are the ones I am talking about www.amazon.co.uk/Read-Write-Inc-Phonics-Storybooks/dp/019846259X/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_y

mrz doesn't like them much and there are lots of other phonics stuff around but it did the job for DS.

simpson Sat 24-Nov-12 23:10:32

Yep done all the 2 letter sounds and most if not all of the 3 letter ones...

I bought a set of usborne early reader books for DD when she was 3 which came with a breakdown of all the phonics sounds so used that,it was worth it's weight in gold!!!

TBH a lot of the phonics DD seemed to pick up herself which helped!!

I feel confident in helping her with her comprehension of what she is reading, just not the next stage of phonics for some reason...

simpson Sat 24-Nov-12 23:11:38

DD is ORT 6 so would those books be ok for her?? Or too easy??

Bunnyjo Sat 24-Nov-12 23:11:52

At the risk of sounding controversial - I think there is far too much focus, by parents, on what reading level their child is. Is this because it is the only thing that parents can compare and ascertain where, in the class, their own child is? And, being perfectly honest, I think I was guilty of worrying that DD was on an appropriate book level in Yr R.

My DD is August born and started Yr R able to read basic cvc words, and that's about it. Maths abilty wise, she was able to add 2 and 3 digit numbers together - numbers were really her thing. When it came to reading and writing though, there were definitely children above her at the start. Reading wise, she started on Pink Level, like everyone else.

Now, she's in Yr 1 and on Gold Level books; her targets for the year are level 2 in both literacy and numeracy (I don't know which sublevel, I was just shock when DD's teacher told me that). She has been streamed into the class above so she, and a couple of other Yr 1s, are now in the Yr 2/3 class.

Do I think this means she is going to be a surgeon or nuclear physicist? No! I think it means that she is being supported and challenged, both at school and home, and that she has 'got to grips' with literacy and numeracy before some/all of her peers. These things have a habit of levelling themselves out and I know that there will be children at her level, and even beyond, come Yr 6. let alone Yr 13

learnandsay Sat 24-Nov-12 23:20:52

Bunnyjo, I don't think you're being particularly controversial. It's just that my daughter can read:

Biff got wet. Floppy got wet. Dad got wet. Mum got wet. Chip got wet.

She can also read:

The Romans loved garum sauce and poured it on everything.

She understands both sentences. I don't have any trouble deciding which type of sentence she spends her time reading.

Bunnyjo Sat 24-Nov-12 23:27:49

DD could read and comprehend both statements by this stage in Yr R. I know you already do, but my best suggestion is to take her to the library and fuel her love of books there. DD adores the Gaskitt series by Allan Ahlberg and is starting to show a love for Roald Dahl.

There is so much more to reading than the books they bring home in their book bag. DD reads every piece of text she comes into contact with - most embarrassing when, whilst I was changing DS's nappy, she picked up a cervical smear leaflet in the GP surgery on Thursday...

Tgger Sat 24-Nov-12 23:32:07

simpson, sounds like your DD prob knows as much as my DS did (re my amateur phonics teaching grin. I did those leaflets up to level 5 ones and then put him on ORT 5. He then went from there through all the magic key (groan but he loved wink) which is err ORT 9 ish I think. At which point we just did the library stuff- lots of blue bananas and whatever seemed suitable. I got school on board who put him on similar level and I guess at some point he became what you would call a fluent reader.

So, perhaps I don't know any more than you phonics wise. Probably your DD (like my DS) will work out any gaps just through reading from now on, not sure there is that much more to do actually from the phonics readers themselves. There was certainly a sort of in between period from DS going through the phonics to becoming a fluent reader but this was just through time and experience reading (as I said mostly magic key and then expanding from there).

Sounds like she's got great support at home and school so you are probably sorted grin.

learnandsay Sat 24-Nov-12 23:35:30

To be honest with you, my ambition isn't that my daughter becomes a brain surgeon or a nuclear physicist at all. It's just that she's so fluent and natural with any of her home-spoken-languages that she can answer the questions that she's asked in a proper fashion. If she couldn't do that I'd have failed her. And without a doubt I'd turn the entire universe blue before I'd do that.

simpson Sat 24-Nov-12 23:53:03

Tgger - we are working our way through magic key books now with the reading chest (amongst others). She does love the blue bananas books too and I am lucky in that I have managed to pick a few up from charity shops etc...

Bunnyjo - I totally agree with you actually in that reading levels from the school can sometimes be the only way in which you know how your child is doing at school ( apart from parents eve etc) but I think the concern here is not necessarily reading levels but that there is a child who can read already pretty well in a school that don't seem to recognise it.

learnandsay Sun 25-Nov-12 00:01:33

Or maybe they're beginning to recognise it but (maybe worse still) don't then know what to do about it.

simpson Sun 25-Nov-12 00:07:27

I cannot believe it is that hard to differentiate for a child that can already read in reception. Although I can understand that it might boil down to a lack of books.

I had a bit of a nightmare with DS in yr2 as the school has a policy of no child free reading until ks2 (yr3) so he stagnated on lime level (the highest my DC school goes up to) for most of the year.... I dread this with DD if she is reading stage 6 totally fluently,understanding it and reading it with expression at 4.

learnandsay Sun 25-Nov-12 00:16:03

I don't want to talk directly about resources because it might identify the school. But in a roundabout way it could be relevant.

There seems to be an element of dogma involved in who reads what, from the "she has to read the books in scheme order" comment. But in practice we're not getting the books in that order at the moment.

Ultimately I don't really know what's going on. But until I understand the situation I'll turn to the library for new books.

onesandwichshort Sun 25-Nov-12 07:27:08

Tygger - it's great that your DS loves school but unfortunately that doesn't work that way for all children. DD has found it hard. At the start, it was feeling left out from seeing other children being praised for things she could do easily (like recognise their names) while her own skills didn't get mentioned. Now she is frustrated without some challenge - I can tell the weeks when she doesn't get any extension work because she is rude and badly behaved at home.

Learnandsay - your post about garum pinpoints the other problem with being able to read fluently, quite apart from all of the sitting through phonics. While this is something that other children will catch up with in time, at this stage the readers, particularly if they are book ominivores, just know more stuff. So DD is asking questions at home about the date of the Big Bang; at school she is spending two days learning the days of the week. hmm

It was very interesting seeing the old thread revived though. Reading it again, what struck me was how tentative we were with school, in a way that we just wouldn't be now. DD now has (some) extension work because we have asked and asked, and gone back when it hasn't materialised and gone up to the Deputy Head (who is head of g&t) and generally been difficult.

And so to answer the original question, yes we had to introduce every teacher to it (firstly Reception Teacher, then new jobshare, then the Deputy Head). IN each case they went 'oh, workbooks' and then, two months later, when they realised that she really could read, took the workbooks away again. It is slightly better in year one, but not enormously.

But I did sympathise with the teachers in the end. I think that the structure of reception does make it hard to differentiate on a regular basis, and finding suitable books (i.e to meet emotional age as well as reading age) is hard work.

learnandsay Sun 25-Nov-12 08:33:41

Thanks, onesandwich. I'm emotionally preparing myself for the repetition in Y1/Y2. If it never materialises I'll be relieved. But I'm expecting it. I do have a solution though. It involves me, a marker pen and several sheets of A4 paper. I'm asking the other half for a set of six new marker pens for Christmas. I might as well stock up on them if I can safely predict that I'll be needing them for the next six years.

yellowsubmarine53 Sun 25-Nov-12 09:37:25

If that's how you're feeling the first term of reception, have you thought about home schooling? (serious question)

I'd hate to feel that I have to micro-manage my children's educational experience and feel in constant battle with their school.

learnandsay Sun 25-Nov-12 10:10:13

I'm against home schooling. I don't think schools (any school, even the most expensive) can compete academically with clever well-educated parents who are geared up for home schooling. (I've not heard of Eton sending thirteen year olds to Cambridge. That doesn't mean it hasn't sent any, but lecturers who tutor their own children in maths do seem to do that on occasions.) But I don't think clever well-educated parents can compete with schools for bringing up children to fit in to society. And in the end I think fitting in to society is what it's all about. A great education is a plus. But it's optional.

I don't know about micro-managing my child's educational experience. But I do know what books I'm expected to read with my child at home. I think if the school didn't send home any books or a reading diary I'd be fine. I don't have a problem with the songs they sing or the dances that they do because I don't know what songs they sing or dances they do. If they sent home dances for us to practice at home and a dance sheet for me to fill in then there is a possibility that I might not like it. But they don't.

Tgger Sun 25-Nov-12 10:19:08

Yes, this is my point yellow. Perhaps I am lucky with DS and school but I am also aware that there is a lot more to being 6. Never mind the reading, phonic which is a small part of what goes on in DS's classroom, he is fully engaged with all sorts of topics. Yes he can access them via reading more than a lot of his class but do not prejudge the non reading 6the year old who may be equally engaged.

Tgger Sun 25-Nov-12 10:21:27

Cam you not compatmentalise lands? Just do your best on the school reading issue then forget about it. You are providing books at home, your DD is happy. Is there really a problem??

learnandsay Sun 25-Nov-12 10:22:08

It also seems clear to me that a school which asks a parent to contribute towards a child's development at home, and sends a diary home in order for the parent to do this, should also have some method of responding to a parent's concerns.

If the school was rehearsing Joseph and his Technicolour Dream Coat and had sent home a sheet of lines for my child to learn, along with a photograph of the coat. And I realised that my child was colour blind to an extent that I hadn't noticed before, and informed the school, I wouldn't expect the school to re-issue my child with the same lines and the same photo the next day.

yellowsubmarine53 Sun 25-Nov-12 10:22:59

Why not treat the books sent home and the reading diary as a mere irritant, whip through them asap and get on with more interesting stuff?

It sounds like you're giving them much more of your head space and attention than they either need or deserve.

yellowsubmarine53 Sun 25-Nov-12 10:24:21

But you said the school have responded. You say that the teacher has given your dd more suitable books somewhere up thread.

Tgger Sun 25-Nov-12 10:24:53

Sorry on phone .....typos...

learnandsay Sun 25-Nov-12 10:25:48

Yes, tgger, I can and both I and my daughter can compartmentalise as you suggest. I don't know how serious the problem is. It may not be a real problem at all. But what I wanted to know was: Does it get easier in later years? And onesandwhich's response makes me think that the answer to that question is: Maybe it does and maybe it doesn't! OK. I'm a grown up. I can live with that.

mrz Sun 25-Nov-12 10:31:33

"I'm not quite sure what the "overtake" description involves. But let's suppose (for my sake) that it involves some children being more able to decode than others..."

It means these children could fluently read anything put in front of them (we read The Lady of Shallott in the summer term) and not only could they understand what they read, they were continually scanning and skimming, referring back to what they had previously read when researching independently and as I said they were excellent spellers who while still in reception did the KS1 SAT spelling test (for fun) and achieved high marks.

BooksandaCuppa Sun 25-Nov-12 10:37:33

As I said upthread the reason I wouldn't worry about one other person's anecdote at this point is that there are too many variables.

You cannot yet know how good the school is at differentiating.

You cannot know whether she's got a slightly truculent, difficult teacher now (or one just more focussed on play etc) and will have a fantastic one in year 1 and 2.

You actually cannot know how far ahead of the other children she is now, let alone whether any of them will catch her up: undoubtedly some will - you have been teaching your daughter to read for two years and they possibly have had only 9 weeks' reading tuition - they could all come on in leaps and bounds by the end of reception. Et cetera.

A good school will cater well for all. Some of these anecdotes we hear where they don't/won't/can't are either talking of really poor schools or genius children. Hopefully (with the utmost respect) you don't either one of those on your hands!

mrz Sun 25-Nov-12 10:38:47

and yes the overtaken child probably could have read the children's encyclopaedia if they had wanted but he lacked many of the mature higher order skills the others had developed.

learnandsay Sun 25-Nov-12 10:42:21

Yes, yellow. The school is trying to respond. The teacher has sent home some non decodable books which are an improvement. But she also said that she wants my daughter to return to the stinky scheme and hasn't suggested that it will be a lot further up the scheme, (quite the opposite.)

Can I ignore the school scheme books? Yes I can, and by and large we do ignore them. Can I teach my daughter other things? Yes and I do and I will.

Why is this a worry for me? Well, maybe it shouldn't be. But if my daughter is happily reading

Then Boudica marshalled her army and marched on Camelodunum

at home, and she's reading

Biff got mum's handbag and lost it on the train

at school, then I might be tempted to ask can my daughter not just read about Camelodunum at school? After all she's supposed to be learning at school. That's what she's there for. And if she can read about Camelodunum and learn about it then why not? There's not much to be learned about Biff's mum's handbag.

yellowsubmarine53 Sun 25-Nov-12 10:42:47

learnsay, in answer to your question 'does it get better in later years?'...with all due respect, your attitude and relationship with the school and your children's teachers will play a very, very large part in how 'difficult' or 'easy' things are....

Might I suggest that setting yourself up for a battle in term 1 of reception is not a particularly constructive start inmho.

yellowsubmarine53 Sun 25-Nov-12 10:44:44

From what you've said on other threads, your own grasp of phonics is pretty haphazard. I would expect the school to be teaching her these properly - this will help her spelling as well as reading as many posters have pointed out before.

learnandsay Sun 25-Nov-12 10:56:08

I'm not someone who confuses phonics with reading. From what I've seen of my daughter's reading she uses a mixture of phonics, context, recognition/familiarity and doubtless more besides. My own view of phonics is that to a limited extent it's its own self regarding cottage industry. Of course it's helpful. Of course it makes perfect sense at a basic level. But does it explain everything there is to explain about the English language as it claims to? No, of course it doesn't. Is learning phonics a substitute for learning to read real books? No, of course it isn't. Can I read without knowing formal phonics? Well, obviously I can because I'm doing it. Can my daughters learn to read without knowing formal phonics? Well, obviously yes. Do I care any more than that about the self regarding cottage industry? No.

yellowsubmarine53 Sun 25-Nov-12 10:59:22

There was a long discussion involving several primary school teachers about the relationships between phonics and reading on another thread that you started.

If you send your child to a state primary, it will involve them teaching her phonics. That's what you've signed up for.

learnandsay Sun 25-Nov-12 11:04:21

I'm not against her being taught phonics; I'm against me being taught phonics!!!

Il probably come across quite stupid here, but I don't get many of the ORT books as in how are they supposed to be decoded. My daughters school puts to much emphasis on them learning their sounds - her maisie mountain mountain chants drive me to distraction, then they send home books that's cant be decoded! For example this week we have naughty children....(the book not the household grin ) and there are very few decidable words, so wevend up telling the words, which I don't think helps!!

Please help!

yellowsubmarine53 Sun 25-Nov-12 11:13:08

In that case, let the school get on with their job, then. Honestly, you're making problems where there are not.

madame - I agree with your that it's not helpful sending home books that children can't read because they haven't been taught how to. This happens quite a lot, judging my the posts on here.

Could you ask the teacher for decodable books? And/or invest in Songbird Phonics which aren't that expensive (or go to the library for phonic books?

When my DS1 started school in 2000 he was taught to read straight away. There was none of this playing throughout reception. Consequently he could read by the the end of the first term (he couldn't read before he started school).
DS2 was the same but shortly after that the whole teaching philosophy changed and they were not taught to read much before Y1.
The rewards are now being reaped with a whole cohort of children reaching secondary school at ever lower levels of literacy.

BooksandaCuppa Sun 25-Nov-12 11:18:10

Are they?

I haven't seen songbird phonics yellow I'm going to look them up now, maybe a Christmas present!!
D
I've tried approaching the teacher and just got a whole loads of acronyms and long words thrown at me as to why He's right and im wrong. I'm aware that she's quite far behind in her reading compared to some other little geniuses in her class, but she's at the same level as a large group (about six others) she's finds it difficult and frustrating and I don't want to force her. But the school don't seem overly intent on helping out the issue! Dd2 is starting to learn phonics in nursery and picking them up quite fast, I'm assuming that's it's not a school problem but An individual one.

Unfortunately (as someone Said above) we didn't choose the state school....it was our only option!

mrz Sun 25-Nov-12 11:27:33

SecretSquirrels the Foundation Stage curriculum was introduced in 2000 so not sure how your son missed it.

yellowsubmarine53 Sun 25-Nov-12 11:31:44

Madame I'm sure that someone else more knowledgeable than me can give you more examples of completely decodable books for new readers. My dd's school was quite good at using decodable books, and I remember Songbirds, Floppy's phonics though can't remember the rest.

He missed it because he went to a tiny village school where the head, ahem, resisted the introduction for at least 2 years. My second DS was also taught traditionally but then a new head took over and in swept the dreaded ORT.

mrz Sun 25-Nov-12 11:48:45

Where the head broke the law for a couple of year hmm ...ORT is definitely nothing to do with EYFS

maverick Sun 25-Nov-12 11:54:38

For the main publishers of decodable books do look here:

www.dyslexics.org.uk/decodable_books.htm

HTH

mrz Sun 25-Nov-12 11:57:11

We use Songbirds, Phonics Bugs, Project X phonics Big Cat Phonics Rigby Star phonics, Rapid Phonics, Rag Tag Rhymes, (Floppy's Phonics and Alphablocks) and I have Dandelion and Sounds-Write books on my next book order.

Oh wow what a brill site! Thanks maverick, the dandelion ones look reasonable (and reasonably priced! Phew!) she's six now so holding her interest is getting a bit harder. It's interesting to see that there's a set of read write inc books on there....I'm sure this is the scheme they follow at school, so surely it would make sense for these to be the books they send home???? The mind boggles?!?

I (im 26) don't ever remember being taught to read this way, nor does dh (34) ..is this phonics storm a new thing or have we just blocked in out of our memories lol.

mrz Sun 25-Nov-12 12:09:20

Phonics is the traditional way reading was taught in England for centuries then we imported Look & Say/Whole Words/Whole Language methods from the US and more recently schools have used mixed methods as prescribed in the literacy strategy.

Cat98 Sun 25-Nov-12 12:09:26

I know the thread has moved on a little from the op, but my experience has been different - ds started reception able to read a little (red band level perhaps?) and school identified it very quickly. They almost immediately started sending home books that challenged him, said that e had been helping other children learn sounds, differentiate work for him in class etc etc. he has already progressed really quickly (with support at home too of course) and is now bringing home books from green band I think though it's quite a mixture.
Maybe I'm too pushy but I don't think I'd be too happy if they didn't seem to be supporting individual children though like learnandsay says I'd probably just carry on doing my own thing at home.

learnandsay Sun 25-Nov-12 12:38:28

Talk amongst yourselves. I got my answer from onesandwich upthread. She's been there.

learnandsay Sun 25-Nov-12 12:41:12

Cat, I don't know if it's a mixture of don't support individuals, won't support, can't support, something else entirely, or what, to be honest. But as people have said, the best solution is to stop worrying about it and just do reading at home.

mrz Sun 25-Nov-12 12:45:38

and because one poster on MN has "been there" that means the situation is going to be found in every single primary school class in England hmm

numbum Sun 25-Nov-12 12:51:35

I was there too when DS started school. He's now nearly 8 and, reading your posts has made me realise how annoying I must have been nagging the teachers to give him appropriate books for his level (or the level I thought he was on).

DD is now in y1 but also started school reading. I left them to it and they handled her brilliantly. A parent nagging them constantly is going to get their backs up.

My advice is to leave them to do their job and do what you want at home. Maybe you could work on her cursive script at home if she isn't doing that. Reading and writing go hand in hand. If she's reading already then work on her writing

learnandsay Sun 25-Nov-12 13:22:34

Er, well, numbub, that's just the point. I haven't been nagging them. I had been writing in the diary that my daughter had been reading "decided," "precisely", "glossary," and "tomorrow," when her reading books said

Dan the man can ban a van and a fan

and I was hoping that they would read the diary and work out that if she could read the words above, (and I described how she was reading them too,) then I figured that the teachers would work out for themselves that Dan the man and his fan weren't helping her to learn to read. But my plan didn't work because the teacher just asked me to stop writing stuff in the diary!

So next I found blurb which you're instructed in the readers (at the front) to read with your child. And we read it and I wrote about that, thinking it might do the trick instead. It didn't. Then I went to parents evening and was told that my daughter can read. I already knew that. I was also told that she has to read the phonics readers in order.

So I figured let her read them in order but read one easy one and one difficult one both at the same time since the easy ones are a waste of time and effort and she's not learning anything from them. I figured that way the teacher is happy and the mum is happy. But the teacher figured something else out, (I don't know what.) And for a while she's sending us non decodable books. It looked for a while as though the new books were a gift from God. But I think I was just lucky with the first one. But no matter. They're still better than the floppy phonics ones. The only real problem is that the teacher promised to put us back on floppy phonics and not much further along the scheme. I'm honestly dreading that.

So don't assume what my behaviour (or nagging has been,) if you don't actually know.

yellowsubmarine53 Sun 25-Nov-12 13:37:38

If you're 'dreading' Floppy's phonics, might I suggest that you're giving these books a leetle bit more weight than they deserve.

My dd went to school being able to read her name and the odd CVC word and she's now a very fluent reader in Y1. Sometimes the school books didn't quite keep up with her and we just extended at home but I'm pleased (for myself, her and her teachers) that I didn't spend her reception year in a stage of angst about something completely unnecessary.

learnandsay Sun 25-Nov-12 13:45:45

Yes, yellow. Thanks. I heard you before upthread when you made that suggestion. I also think you're right.

And I also think the teacher offered me a solution at parents evening which I didn't figure out until last night (when I was reading the writing targets handouts posted on mumsnet.) The teacher asked me to write stories with my daughter and I now realise that they don't have to be done in cursive script. So she can use the words decided, tomorrow, probably and any other word that she knows in those. And then everybody is happy.

numbum Sun 25-Nov-12 14:42:15

But the point is she IS reading harder books. She's reading them at home with you. I don't know why you can't just work through the school book (i imagine your DD doesnt take more than a few minutes to read them) and then get on with whatever else you want to do with her.

You're going to make the next few years of primary hell for yourself if you can't relax over this

allchildrenreading Sun 25-Nov-12 18:06:20

One of mine was very dispirited when she had a teacher who didn't challenge the children - most did. She was a voracious reader by 6 (mainly due to spending post-op times at home in plaster and wanting 1-4 books a day to read...).
It's terribly important to try to finish decodable readers by the end of Year 1/middle of Year 2, where possible (around 5%-10% of children may need more) imo. There are some excellent decodable readers but unless children are doing sustained reading and using higher cognitive skills by around 6 1/2, some will never acquire all the skills they need for secondary education. Some decodable books for 6-7 year olds only have around 200-300 words in them. A free reader will be reading books with 5,000, 10,000, 15,000. Also when children are stuck too long on decodable or levelled readers below their intellectal reach, they are missing out on some fantastic writers if they don't acquire the habit of 'real reading'.
Some children desperately need to see that their teacher isn't insisting on dumbed down materials for them. Most of my energies have gone on helping struggling children - and now, provided that there is good instruction - with good decoding skills in place - very few need further help. But naturally keen readers need skill, empathy and teacher awareness in order not to become depressed and bored.

learnandsay Sun 25-Nov-12 18:42:38

empathy and teacher awareness in order not to become depressed and bored....

Unless they're figured out a way to adapt what they've been taught to enable themselves to read more widely.

Bonsoir Sun 25-Nov-12 18:45:47

"but unless children are doing sustained reading and using higher cognitive skills by around 6 1/2, some will never acquire all the skills they need for secondary education"

I agree very much with this. Reading early and well is important to ensure children get enough reading mileage in before secondary.

simpson Sun 25-Nov-12 19:05:59

Also agree with allchildren.

mrz Sun 25-Nov-12 19:19:59

I agree but I don't think reading an appropriate reading scheme book as a teaching/learning tool excludes reading reading longer books.

yellowsubmarine53 Sun 25-Nov-12 19:28:49

Quite, and 6.5 years is different from 4.

Tgger Sun 25-Nov-12 20:24:47

I'm not sure I agree Bonsoir. What is this theory based on- the one about reading and using higher cognitive skills by 6.5? Ok so English is harder to learn than some languages but there will be children who learn to read English (or other languages..) at age 7 or 8, but then learn very quickly and become very engaged with reading. Have they really missed out by not reading age 4/5/6?

It is a balancing act. In some ways I think it can be dangerous starting so young in YR, especially for the younger end of the class- seeing as Summer birthdays are starting in September now- and then going so slowly with low expectations as it sets a slow pace that then doesn't pick up quickly enough when they are ready for it to- hence the many posts by frustrated Y1/Y2 parents. Just a theory...

Bonsoir Sun 25-Nov-12 20:27:42

There is plenty of research to support the idea that massive amounts of reading in the primary years is one of the strongest predictors of academic performance in secondary. And, therefore, the sooner you are learning to read, the more time you have to do all that reading. Add English into the mix (the hardest European language to learn to read) and there is good reason to start teaching reading in YR in order for children to be reading fluently by mid/end Y2.

Tgger Sun 25-Nov-12 20:30:13

Not if they get put off because they are not mature enough grin.

simpson Sun 25-Nov-12 20:42:44

This is why I think it is so important to make sure your child if they are reading at a young age is reading the right books (and I don't mean school level wise) I mean books that they can understand.

For example DS could decode pretty much anything by the end of yr1 but his comprehension was not at the same level so it would have been easy to give him a book to read but he would not have had a clue what it was about.

DD's comprehension (I have been told) is higher than her reading level but she is still only 4 so I want her to read books aimed for young children if that makes sense so it can be quite tough to find a book that is going to stretch her (not that I want every book she reads to stretch her, I want her to simply enjoy it) but that is going to appeal to her as she is still young.

numbum Sun 25-Nov-12 20:46:55

My DD enjoyed the Winnie the Witch books at 4 simpson. Also the Mr Men and Little Miss books, Flat Stanley, Tiara Club (a bit like the dreaded Rainbow fairies but easier shorter sentences). I do know what you mean about giving her books to stretch her but appeal. She's still very young and there's no point giving her books way above their comprehension just so you can say 'Oh DD? Yes she's reading Harry Potter/War and Peace/The Bible' grin (I know you're not doing that but you know what I mean)

simpson Sun 25-Nov-12 20:53:05

Numbum - ( great name!!) that is exactly what I mean!! DS could have decoded Harry Potter fine at the end of yr1 but would not "get" it so he is reading it now for the first time at 7.

I had forgotten about Flat Stanley (I have a box set that was DS's which I don't think she could manage yet,but a couple of months ago I got another FS book out of the library which was easier so maybe I should try that again).

Tiara Club sounds good!!!

allchildrenreading Mon 26-Nov-12 16:41:25

'I agree but I don't think reading an appropriate reading scheme book as a teaching/learning tool excludes reading reading longer books.'

This is true,Msz. but it takes a skilled and confident SP teacher to know whether an appropriate reading scheme book will encourage or discourage a love of reading. It seems to me that teachers who aren't secure in their knowledge (and as you've observed, many are badly taught re beginning reading instruction) can stultify childrens' progress and put them off reading. As you say, there are so many other distractions at home.

Tgger - yes, I agree. 4 is too young. When teachers and TAs know how to teach a complex alphabetic code, then 5 is a much more appropriate time to begin imo.

mrz Mon 26-Nov-12 17:06:39

Do you honestly think spending 15 mins with a school text book (reading scheme book) will discourage a love of reading?

learnandsay Mon 26-Nov-12 17:09:36

If it goes on for too long and is boring yes it could do.

Bonsoir Mon 26-Nov-12 17:22:10

"Do you honestly think spending 15 mins with a school text book (reading scheme book) will discourage a love of reading?"

Yes, it does. My DD got really turned off reading at the beginning of last year because of the frightful reading scheme books she was being asked to read. I made a fuss at school and she got better books and the situation was quickly turned around, but making a fuss was very unpleasant and most parents don't bother at our school because the teachers would prefer the children ploughed through a lot of reading scheme books.

mrz Mon 26-Nov-12 17:42:23

Well our children right up to Y6 must love our reading scheme books enough to borrow them permanently learnandsay... our new reading scheme books have just arrived - The Iron Man , The Wolves of Willoughby Chase, The Wolf Cupboard, Belladonna, Gorgle, Astrosaurs, How to train your dragon, Young Merlin, Spy Pups, Jack Stalwart, Super Soccer Boy ... sorry boring they most certainly are not.

mrz Mon 26-Nov-12 17:43:34

Would you say the same about a maths text book or a geography text book or a science text book or ...

yellowsubmarine53 Mon 26-Nov-12 17:54:43

Surely, the point is that some reading scheme books are dire and enough to put some children off reading. Some are great and will help nurture a love of reading.

Same as maths, geography or science text books.

Surely it's a matter of finding the ones that suit the child, rather than dissing them all.

My dd loves the ORT Magic Key books, although fortunately she's now more than capable of reading them without any help from me. They have definitely played a part in her reading ability and enthusiasm, as much as Roald Dahl, Julia Donaldson, Allan Ahlberg etc.

mrz Mon 26-Nov-12 18:07:28

They are teaching tools and serve a purpose ... nothing more.

learnandsay Mon 26-Nov-12 19:53:30

Right, but those are the books your school has, not mine. Our teacher said we're going back on the scheme soon. So, no doubt you'll be hearing what we're getting.

I suppose I could start praying or write to Santa. Do either God or Santa mind hypocrites, does anyone know?

mrz Mon 26-Nov-12 19:56:57

So should we judge all schools by your child's school or by my school or should we just accept that schools vary greatly

simpson Mon 26-Nov-12 20:13:16

Well DD has come home with a new book today. no more jolly phonics books!!!

She has come with a book called "The Lion and the Mouse" which is a story worlds book which is a massive improvement on the previous books....

learnandsay Mon 26-Nov-12 20:27:13

simpson, story worlds as in Heinemann? If so, you lucky personage, you! I've spent a week trying to track Heinenmann books down. They are good, good, good.

simpson Mon 26-Nov-12 20:32:55

Yes it is!!

She read it tonight and loved it,the only word she did not get was "gnawed"

They are fab with loads of scope to talk about what is happening/what might happen next etc...

It is at blue level.

There are 3 more in this series: The Big Pancake, The Little Red Hen and The Enormous Turnip.

Would an ISBN number help???

learnandsay Mon 26-Nov-12 20:36:26

You're a dear. I think it's the absence of the books that's the difficulty. Unfortunately I can identify all the ones I can't find. They're quite old and our library system doesn't stock them. But they're genius.

learnandsay Mon 26-Nov-12 20:55:07

Simpson, I've just found a list of all the storyworlds books www.pearsonschoolsandfecolleges.co.uk/Primary/Literacy/GuidedReading/Storyworlds/Resources/NLSmatchingmaterials/SW_BBC.pdf

I found The Little Girl and the Bear in a second hand bookshop and my daughter had no trouble with it. It's right at the end of this series. If you have unfettered access to these books I'd test your daughter out on them. (I suspect your daughter is a little bit ahead of mine.) So she should manage fine with them all, unless there is something easier about the lg&tb story than the other ones in its group.

simpson Mon 26-Nov-12 20:56:41

They were printed in 1996.

I did not realise until I read the parent bit at the front that they were originally intended for the parent to read the main part of the text and the child reads the speech bubbles but I assume that as its a blue level she is meant to read the whole thing.

The one I have is by Diana Bentley and ISBN no. is 0435090410.

Hope you find them, as DD loved it!! (hoping we will get the other ones!!)

simpson Mon 26-Nov-12 20:59:20

The one that DD has is not listed there,I suspect it might be too old.

Also I thought blue was stage 4 confused

learnandsay Mon 26-Nov-12 20:59:38

Try the ones at the end.

learnandsay Mon 26-Nov-12 21:01:28

Yes, that's the problem with these! You get hooked and then you can't find them. grin

simpson Mon 26-Nov-12 21:02:51

grin

That is how I feel about Frog and Toad I am so gutted that DD has read them all (there are only 4).

learnandsay Mon 26-Nov-12 21:13:14

I've found them on Amazon, (thanks to you.) I'm getting them as an xmas present.

simpson Mon 26-Nov-12 21:15:38

You have got me looking at them too!! Also on Amazon but I begrudge paying £8 for delivery when they are all coming from the same person <tightwad>

mrz Mon 26-Nov-12 21:17:10

Storyworlds are still available from Pearsons and Amazon
www.pearsonschoolsandfecolleges.co.uk/AssetsLibrary/SECTORS/Primary/PDFs/StructureCharts/Storyworlds08.pdf

We have all the Storyworld books - previously used them for guided reading but they haven't been widely used for the last 7 or 8 years.

learnandsay Mon 26-Nov-12 21:19:47

Can you investigate whether the Turnip, Hen and (whatever the other book was) are supposed to be ahead or behind The Little Girl & the Bear, before you go to Amazon? Don't buy the one(s) we read if the one(s) you have access to are ahead.

Tgger Mon 26-Nov-12 21:26:44

I remember looking at them for DS when I was looking for books for him last year. I bought one in the end "The Shark who has no teeth" (Stage 8 I think). He liked it but I didn't think it was that special or different from some of the other schemes.

Glad you guys are excited- why not- but seems like your idea of difficulty may be a little strange- haven't read it myself learnandsay but the Little Girl and Bear one seems to be at the end as you say which is meant for fluent or nearly fluent readers. Could your DD really manage it independently by herself? And It looks like the ones you are talking about simpson are level 1, so quite easy, easier than the stuff your DD normally does? Not that these levels are that solid.

learnandsay Mon 26-Nov-12 21:27:29

I've found The Little Red Hen & Co on mrz's chart. They're right at the top (pink) And I've found Little Girl & the Bear. They're fairly near the bottom. I think they one we read is at the end of the scheme. I'm pretty sure your daughter is capable of that and more.

learnandsay Mon 26-Nov-12 21:34:50

Tgger, I don't tend to let my daughter read without me. The most I've done that is on lists of random words. Can she read it unaided? Well, now she can! She's read it twice. Could she read one of the other three in its group totally unaided? I don't know. I'd have to have access to one to find out. I'll let you know. My suspicion is maybe, (maybe not.)

simpson Mon 26-Nov-12 21:37:21

I think the thing with these books (certainly the one DD has) is it has text for the parent to read and then one line for the child to read.

So DD is expected to read the whole thing so probably not as easy as its stated.

The school have it levelled at blue and she read it fine (apart from one word).

It is definately easier than what she reads with me,but I am not that bothered as she loved it (the first school book she has loved!!)

The other books she loves (from the library) are the start reading series.

Currently she has: Mum's Robot (which is stage 6)
Sink or Swim (stage 5)
Nature Detectives (stage 5)
Spider in the Bath (stage 4)

She has other books that are not stages obviously,but she truly loves these books and asks for more!!

simpson Mon 26-Nov-12 21:39:56

Sorry blush just looked at mrz chart and agree with what I put before.

It is on that level in the chart because the child is supposed to read one line on each page which says "I can help you" over and over again.

DD is expected to read the main body of the text which is pretty wordy as well which is why her school have levelled it higher.

simpson Mon 26-Nov-12 21:44:11

The first page of DD's books says:

"The lion opened one eye and saw the little mouse. He caught the little mouse in his paw. "Please do not hurt me, Mr Lion," the little mouse said. "One day I may be able to help you." The lion laughed and laughed but he let the mouse go. "You are so little ," he said "You cannot help me." But the mouse squeaked....

Then it goes to the bit the child is supposed to read in a think bubble "I can help you."

But DD has to read it all iyswim.

learnandsay Mon 26-Nov-12 21:45:03

simpson, did your daughter read the whole book? (I think you're saying that she did.) If you have access to the books at the end of the scheme compare them to the one you've read (speech bubbles and all,) and if they're below, (which I suspect they might be, then only buy the ones you're familiar with from Amazon, or buy none of them at all.)

Tgger Mon 26-Nov-12 21:47:29

Ah, ok, that explains it then shock. Sorry!!!!!!!!!!! And nothing wrong with reading easy books anyway.

learnandsay- that's great...... I just have an inkling from your posts that you are so involved with your DD's reading that it becomes a joint enterprise. This is lovely, but perhaps blurs your knowledge of what she can actually do herself without you. Not without you being there, but without your input to sound out the words.

Does this matter? Not really, at some point she will know enough phonics and be mature enough to tackle books on her own. Just in the meantime your view of your DD's ability and the school's view will be on different pages.

Runs away and hides....

learnandsay Mon 26-Nov-12 21:48:32

My daughter has read a lion and the mouse story which has very similar text. But I think the publisher was Hopscotch and not Heinemann. The Hopscotch book has very similar text but no speech bubbles. The dialogue is included in the story. Because it's an Aesop's fable everybody has access to the same text.

simpson Mon 26-Nov-12 21:52:14

I have just bought DD 2 stage 9 books (which she probably won't be able to read yet - although will assess when they arrive).

Will probably hold them back for her birthday which is end of Jan.

Cannot look at other books in this scheme (unless a child I read with in KS1 just so happens to have one).

Yes she read the whole thing,tbh it's not that long, 12 pages.

learnandsay Mon 26-Nov-12 21:52:49

Tgger, yes. My daughter and I are a double act, as you suggest, to some extent. But the parent helpers seem to be suggesting in her diary that she's doing good reading (and they're not me.) And the teacher says that my daughter can read. Which I already know. So there are divisions in the double act. You're quite right. I may not be able to see where those divisions are. But life has a way of making you stand on your own two feet. And at times my daughter clearly has to read on hers...

simpson Mon 26-Nov-12 21:57:57

DD is getting pretty good at reading by herself or to her teddies (or the cat!!) But it is a very recent thing.

She has had the same teacher in nursery so is confident to read with her and quite frankly does not seem to care who she reads with (read with HT and Deputy Head last week - as they seem to be showing a special interest in her).

But she still refuses to go in the HT's office as she thinks this is where the naughty children go!!

Tgger Mon 26-Nov-12 22:03:57

I'm sure she is learnandsay. Just some of your posts seem so righteous. Can't think of a better word. You clearly have your own approach with your DD with reading. Chances are it won't fit in with school until she can read fluently if you are happy in your double act. At this point they can give her any books suitable for her age. Hopefully that won't be too long but wonder if you can chill out about the poor school books and scheme stuff until this happens smile.

learnandsay Mon 26-Nov-12 22:11:18

I've studied some philosophy, so there's a chance that what you describe as righteous in my posts is rhetoric. (I've found sometimes in fora/forums that one has to put a point across in stark terms to "win" the argument. Sometimes it's not exactly, (or even) what one believes. It's simply that that logical possibility triumphs all others. (Fora/forums, as the Ancient Greeks discovered, give rise to the art of public speaking.)

All of that has nothing to do with my daughter's reading. The school (or to be more realistic, the teacher,) is doing some sort of assessment of my daughter as we speak. So I guess time will tell.

Tgger Mon 26-Nov-12 22:13:33

Jolly good. Hope you find some common ground smile. And I like a good argument too.

simpson Mon 26-Nov-12 22:19:18

Fingers x with the assessment.

Although be prepared to be told that she has not read a book (by your daughter ,not the teacher!!) as DD had an assessment a few weeks ago but told me she did not read a book (it was a reading assessment) but then told me 12 hours later that she did read from a bit of paper about a pirate!! grin

Agree nothing wrong with a good argument debate grin

mrz Mon 26-Nov-12 22:20:11

I think you might find the reception teacher is looking for what your daughter can do totally independently learnandsay

BooksandaCuppa Mon 26-Nov-12 22:23:56

And on the first read through,too.

Nothing stranger than seeing a parent write in a reading diary; 'X has learned her book'!!??? (Well, obviously, there are stranger things but, you know, rhetoric and all that!)

learnandsay Mon 26-Nov-12 22:26:24

OK, (even though when a child is reading with an adult they're not independent,) but even so, as the various parent workers reports in the diary have said, my daughter's reading of the non decodable Ginn readers is pretty good. ( I don't want to blow horns, so pretty good will do.) That on its own is a sizeable step up from the ORT readers we had before. And, I'm afraid, there's a way to go yet in assessing what the double act has done.

simpson Mon 26-Nov-12 22:27:53

Out of interest what would you expect a parent to write in a reading diary for the first time of reading a book??

In DD's book earlier I wrote something like "She read this book fluently (did not sound out anything) with great expression (which she has) and answered questions on what might happen next etc. But did need help with XX word....

I don't see the point in writing something in the diary that she hasn't done as I would hate her to get books that are too hard for her (although no teacher is just going to go on the words of the parent in a reading diary only)...

learnandsay Mon 26-Nov-12 22:28:51

booksandcuppa, if you want a rhetorical scrap, just come out with your premises....

Tgger Mon 26-Nov-12 22:29:35

The idea is the parent/teacher just listens. smile. That's independent.

mrz Mon 26-Nov-12 22:30:34

I don't know BooksandaCuppa it's pretty strange when you hear your reception and Y1 teachers ask "have you learnt your book?" [rolls eyes] drove me mad last year

learnandsay Mon 26-Nov-12 22:33:32

I think diary comments depend on the teacher and school. But I'm guessing that a fair trade between parents and parent helpers/TAs/teachers is: if the child couldn't work out how to pronounce the name Aesop in Aesop's fables, then write that down.

simpson Mon 26-Nov-12 22:35:13

I would love to listen to reception read ( as its the year group I want to work with) but am not allowed as DD is in there (fair enough) but I do read with yr1 and yr2.

Although no parents are actually allowed to read with reception as lots of them can't read yet...

I do just listen to them (yr1&2) but ask questions about what they think might happen next, how a character feels etc and at the end if they liked a book and why.

DD said to me today she is being encouraged to look at blurb and talk to the person next to her (in guided reading I guess) about what she thinks the book might be about. And then they have to do the same thing when they have read the book (retell it in their own words)...

BooksandaCuppa Mon 26-Nov-12 22:36:49

Sounds perfect. It's detailed without writing an essay and covers most of the bases of reading at this stage.

I'm not a teacher but have many years experience as a (trained) parent helper (and experienced secondary professional - not teacher) which is why I know that there can often be a gulf between what a parent and a teacher 'think' of a child's reading. Some parents think reading is only decoding. Some know to acknowledge expression but think that means speech only. Some help their child out a lot and don't record that. Some think that how the child reads the book on the fifth time of asking is them 'reading' it, when it's pure memory. And so on.

And obviously sometimes teachers get it wrong, too, though I'm sure it's less likely!

Sounds like you know exactly how your dd is doing, simpson.

simpson Mon 26-Nov-12 22:37:08

I am told not to write anything negative hmm so if they have tried hard I write that,if they have used the pictures to tell the story I write that (although I don't agree with doing that tbh) or any phonics sounds they were strong with etc etc...

This is in other kids reading diaries obv. not my own child's!!!

learnandsay Mon 26-Nov-12 22:37:24

Literally, if the child was on its own reading that would be independent.

BooksandaCuppa Mon 26-Nov-12 22:38:54

yup, mrz, that's even stranger :-)

Tgger Mon 26-Nov-12 22:40:21

Just wanted to clarify as you said "reading with". THought it important to you being part of a double act and all smile.

learnandsay Mon 26-Nov-12 22:43:40

Tgger, to be honest I'm not sure what the beef is here. But I've been reading with my daughter since she was two. I cannot hope to judge objectively what she can read. (But then I'm not trying to.) But I can easily judge when something is too easy. That's simply a matter of experience.

Rudolphstolemycarrots Mon 26-Nov-12 22:45:59

In your shoes, I'd just continue plodding at home and use the library. Also directly ask them to test her reading age as the books are too easy.

My eldest DS's class had 4 readers out of 30 when they started R - one in particular was seriously gifted in every area -think genius! My DH could read quite well too but wasn't an all rounder. In that specific able class, almost all of the kids became free readers over Y1/Y2.

Rudolphstolemycarrots Mon 26-Nov-12 22:46:27

DS not DH !!

Tgger Mon 26-Nov-12 22:49:55

"I can easily judge when something is too easy". That is the point or "the beef" as you put it. Chances are you can't as you are part of the double act and have been for years and don't listen to her read independently.

It sounds like you don't want to change and that's fine, I just wanted to point out to you that this is why partly you are at odds with the school.

BooksandaCuppa Mon 26-Nov-12 22:51:30

I don't think you can get a reliable 'reading age' test until 6.5 years? (And even then they can vary massively depending on the test).

learnandsay Mon 26-Nov-12 22:52:40

Rudolph, we are doing that. And I just got a return phone call from our library children's literacy coordinator. I think the school is genuinely trying to do the right thing. Our teacher is lovely. Whether or not it/she can do the right thing remains to be seen. But even if she can't I don't think it will have a major impact on my daughter's reading. It will simply be a wasted opportunity and a frustration for me as I'll constantly be having to comment on hone reading books that are rubbish. No big deal in the grand scheme of things, but could have been so much better...

Tgger Mon 26-Nov-12 22:53:39

I also know how frustrating it is when your child is sent home with too easy books and I hope you find a middle way with your DD, but I stand by my point that perhaps you don't really know where she is at, and perhaps you do not really want to know (re not wanting to do scheme books and phonics stuff).

BooksandaCuppa Mon 26-Nov-12 22:54:21

Do you let dd read a new school book to you completely on her own, unprompted/unaided, lands?

Only because I'm sure if you've been her teacher for two and a half years it must be really hard to sit back and let her just 'read' (and the teacher 'teach')?

A genuine question - no side/edge/sarcasm intended (impossible to prove on the internet I know!).

Tgger Mon 26-Nov-12 22:55:51

I wonder what you would like your DD to have sent home that isn't "rubbish". Hmmmmmmmm...........real books, oh yes, you don't really get those until your decoding is up to speed. Oh dear.... oh well......... just don't comment on the "rubbish" then smile.

Sips wine, realises you can lead a horse to water.... and goes off MN..

learnandsay Mon 26-Nov-12 22:55:53

Yes, tgger. But you don't know that, and neither do I. Neither of us can judge just what my daughter can do or can't do with or without me. Of course I'm aware of the possibilities. But possibilities on their own don't explain what the situation actually is.

Tgger Mon 26-Nov-12 22:58:01

You could if you were prepared to change and let her read more independently.

Tgger Mon 26-Nov-12 22:58:26

(still a drop of wine left..)

Tgger Mon 26-Nov-12 22:59:32

Maybe she is a fluent reader? But not if you are helping.....and we go round in circles...

BooksandaCuppa Mon 26-Nov-12 22:59:47

If I weren't teetotal, tgger, I'd ask to share...

learnandsay Mon 26-Nov-12 23:00:12

Well, if she was reading with me the situation would always be the same because I would always be there. But in fact she does read without me at school!!!

And the results are encouraging.

BooksandaCuppa Mon 26-Nov-12 23:01:10

I know you're there, but are you helping her sound out/blend/remember etc?

Tgger Mon 26-Nov-12 23:02:54

Jolly good. Happy to share BooksandaCuppa, in spirit anyway smile.

learnandsay hope you get it sorted soon, it does sound encouraging.

Tgger Mon 26-Nov-12 23:03:51

yes, BooksandaCuppa that's wot I meant too grin.

yellowsubmarine53 Mon 26-Nov-12 23:04:24

A genuinely curious question learnsay.... why don't you let you dd read independently?

Tgger's probably right that the disparity between your view of your dd's reading and that of her teacher (which doesn't seem to be a particularly large difference from what you've said) is the the EYFS assesses in terms of independence and your focus seems to be elsewhere.

BooksandaCuppa Mon 26-Nov-12 23:04:27

Thanks. I'm taking a 'cuppa' to bed to read my 'book' (and making sure ds - 12 - is not doing 'secret reading' on my way up).

Night all.

learnandsay Mon 26-Nov-12 23:05:27

Of course I am!

The books that she gets at school are easier. Those are so easy it's a joke. I don't have to help her with those.

She can't read the King James Bible on her own yet. But what are we after? The child is 4.

Tgger Mon 26-Nov-12 23:06:00

Night......thanks for the chat all.........it's been fun grin.

yellowsubmarine53 Mon 26-Nov-12 23:08:35

Tgger, I don't tend to let my daughter read without me.

Oh, so why did you say this then?

<confused and also off to read in bed>

simpson Mon 26-Nov-12 23:08:48

I did have to push ask my DD to start reading to herself by lying blush and saying how proud her teacher would be if she read to herself without me to help etc etc....

But I have noticed that if she picks a book to read to herself she will go for a much easier book (which is fine by me).

Also I had been getting phonics books out of the library for DD by doing what LandS does (flicking through it and thinking it was too easy -so a no, or it would be ok for her iyswim).

And DD told me very firmly to stop doing this (last week) as she just wants chapter books (because she wants to be like her brother) so I am led by her and let her decide what she wants to read (as muxh as I can as she is not there when I go to the library as I go when she is at school).

The same with Oxford owl, sometimes she will choose a book that is too easy/ hard but I let her choose as I want her to have control over her reading if that makes sense.

<<still has wine here and is not sharing!!>>. <<selfish - have had a bad day!!>>

BooksandaCuppa Mon 26-Nov-12 23:11:30

Not sure yellow if that was of course I am letting her read independently or of course I am helping her. As I said must be difficult to sit back and not help when you've been so involved for two and a half years.

Good luck learnandsay.

BooksandaCuppa Mon 26-Nov-12 23:14:37

<really am off to bed now - long day tomorrow and here's hoping no more flooded roads!>

learnandsay Mon 26-Nov-12 23:21:04

Hug my dear.

My day wasn't too awful. The bigger girl has been sick overnight. So I sat with her all day. Hope your troubles are over.

I'm not sure that there exists a worldwide problem with this reading assessment malarky. The obvious thing to do is to do what our teacher seems to be doing which is to give the girl non decodable readers until she encounters a problem. Rocket science it isn't.

Of course tgger and Books are right. Mum has no chance of assessing her child in order to objectively test what she can read.

But do exam boards let parents tests their own children? And if not why not?!!
Because if they did they'd all pass!!!

But that doesn't mean that all self taught children can't read and can't read well.

mrz Tue 27-Nov-12 06:39:09

I think what people are trying to say learnandsay is that as a teacher I would be looking for a child able to pick up a book they had not previously seen/read and to be able to read it completely unaided with no prompting from anyone.

BooksandaCuppa there are reading tests that go down to age four. The test we use starts at age 4.5years and tests fluency and comprehension both literal and inferred but we don't generally test reception children.

yellowsubmarine53 Tue 27-Nov-12 07:22:41

mrz, that's exactly what I understand to be 'reading'.

These last few posts have made me realise that learnsay and I seem to have very different understandings of what 'reading' means.

mrz Tue 27-Nov-12 07:30:32

In my experience the vast majority of reception children can "read" more difficult texts when supported by an adult and lots can "learn" their school reading books if they read it over and over but I wouldn't call either of those groups "readers"

simpson Tue 27-Nov-12 08:15:11

DD has the confidence to try quite tough books (not saying she will get them right!!)

She definately does not "learn" her school book as she refuses to read it more than maybe twice (3 if lucky) as she then knows the story and wants to read something else.

We read her school book last night and will read it again tomorrow night and the teacher will listen to her on thurs and change it.

But there are kids I read with who "learn" their books and turn over 2 pages by accident and recite the page before from memory....

Tgger Tue 27-Nov-12 09:14:41

Hence the need for the middle ground. Books she can do without help or perhaps help with a few words, say max 4 or 5. Help of any sort. You open your mouth you are helping. :-). Start with the easiest books, keep going until you find the level where you have to open your mouth. Probably what school will do, possibly a bit more sophisticated :-).

Tgger Tue 27-Nov-12 09:15:30

That was for las by the way..

learnandsay Tue 27-Nov-12 09:22:31

hmmm, I think you girls have a concern that I don't share. I'm not an examiner. I'm a parent. I'm interested in teaching my daughter to read, (not to do phonics, not to pass tests, not to read independently..not..not..not) There may be an indefinite number of skills associated with reading which numerous people are greatly concerned with. But I'm not.

I just want my daughter to read and to love doing it, which seems to be going well so far.

If Mr Gove wants to test her on phonics at some point, fine. If a parent helper, a TA a teacher or some other person (who isn't me) wants to give her a comprehension test at some point then fine. If somebody for no apparent reason wants to know if she can decode the word strawberry, then fine.

Let them do it.

yellowsubmarine53 Tue 27-Nov-12 09:54:57

I would say that reading independently is 'reading'. Reading with help is reading with help. School will be looking to teach and assess the former. You are doing the latter and calling it reading.

This seem to be the font of the disproportionate angst you experience about Floppy's Phonics.

learnandsay Tue 27-Nov-12 09:57:34

We don't know that, do we? Floppy phonics was all she was getting. Now she's reading Ginn with parent helpers and doing fine by their comment in the diary.

What you're saying is a bit like feeding a rabbit exclusively on onions and then saying, that's curious. This rabbit likes eating onions!!!

yellowsubmarine53 Tue 27-Nov-12 10:09:19

Yes, we do know that EYFS assesses independent learning...

learnandsay Tue 27-Nov-12 10:10:54

Yes, but the EYFS doesn't specify which scheme books a school uses.

yellowsubmarine53 Tue 27-Nov-12 10:16:30

How is that relevant?

The EYFS assesses in terms of independent learning. Some 4 year olds are independent readers without having been near a reading scheme book. Most use them as stepping stones to independent reading.

We're talking about independent reading, are we not, not the benefits/demerits of particular reading schemes?

learnandsay Tue 27-Nov-12 10:28:50

It's relevant because you brought it up!

Neither you nor I know what my daughter can or can't read independently, (although it seems to be a great issue for you.) You don't know because you've never read with her. And I don't know because when she's with me she's not independent.

There will be other people out there who are reading with my daughter who have a chance of finding this out. But they've got to use a range of materials in order to calculate what she can read, or they'll be misled into thinking that she can only read what they've given her. They won't know whether or not she can read other things because they won't have tried them.

It seems that the teacher has recently worked this out because that's precisely what she has been doing for the past week, (not the nine previous weeks.) It doesn't seem as though the teacher has got the right combination yet. But she will get there eventually, (hopefully.)

yellowsubmarine53 Tue 27-Nov-12 10:34:21

I didn't bring up reading schemes - I brought up the difference between independent reading and helping a child to read and pointed out that schools teach and assess the former.

learnandsay Tue 27-Nov-12 10:39:18

Yes you did. You were talking about my view of the ORT ones. Re-read your recent posts.

yellowsubmarine53 Tue 27-Nov-12 10:58:24

In the context of the disparity between your view of reading and that of the EYFS...

And I hold my view that ORT books need to be treated as a mere stepping stone to skip across rather than a source of angst in their own right, if a child is 'reading' a range of material at school and home...

learnandsay Tue 27-Nov-12 11:29:35

You don't know my view of reading. This "argument" is stupid.

numbum Tue 27-Nov-12 13:04:55

Ok so what IS your view of reading LandS? You've posted so many times on this subject that I think even you have probably confused yourself. So maybe you should simplify exactly what it IS you want and what your view on it all is

You seem to think you have all the answers anyway and ignore/argue with what I view as helpful posts

learnandsay Tue 27-Nov-12 13:17:58

I'd head for the nearest dictionary if I was you, numbum.

yellowsubmarine53 Tue 27-Nov-12 14:09:37

I agree. When learnsay asked a set of questions. Posters respond in a variety of helpful and varied ways. learnsay twists herself up in knots, ignores anything she disagrees with and repeats herself.

I'm not having an argument with you learnsay. I'm just pointing out that your dd's teacher will be teaching and assessing independent reading, whilst you are doing something very different with your dd. This difference seems to be the source of your frustrations with the school.

learnandsay Tue 27-Nov-12 14:13:57

You don't know what the teacher is doing. You're assuming.

In fact everything you've typed is an assumption.

learnandsay Tue 27-Nov-12 14:21:17

If you have a point to make please make the point. But please don't make personal comments about me in my thread.

If you have an argument to make make it. I'd rather we didn't recover old ground. I found previous comments unhelpful. If you have new or different suggestions do put them.

Feenie Tue 27-Nov-12 14:40:59

It isn't 'your' thread, learnandsay - that's ridiculous. You can't control the way a discussion goes, unless you think they have broken MN guidelines, in which case you report posts to MNHQ. It's a forum - the discussion flows.

learnandsay Tue 27-Nov-12 14:44:24

Making personal comments about the OP suggests logical weakness. Someone with a good argument simply makes it.

Tgger Tue 27-Nov-12 14:50:58

Well, I think there will a very small number (1?) who will not assume that the teacher will want to assess and teach your daughter to read independently.

When children are in the beginning stages of reading they require more help with sounding out, but once they have got the basics they normally follow levelled books so that they can gain confidence and skill as an independent reader. At home they may tackle harder books where an adult helps them and this will be up to the parent/child to decide on. I guess this may happen at school too, but generally not, perhaps only when the teacher is seeing how the child copes with the next level and whether they are ready for it- ie can manage 95% independently.

I think this is the way it works and most people buy into. If you don't then fair enough but please stop posting quite critical comments about school reading level and going round in circles as it is a little maddening shock.

learnandsay Tue 27-Nov-12 14:56:58

The school informed us that no assessment of our children's reading would take place until after the first half term. The teacher also told me at parents' evening that she was aware that the books that she was giving my daughter were too easy.

Some contributors are posting assessments in the thread without being in possession of the facts and then are getting upset when those assessments aren't being accepted.

Tgger Tue 27-Nov-12 14:59:47

Will you be happy once they find her some suitable levelled books? Whatever they might be? Will you get her to read them independently to you and not immediately judge them too easy or "rubbish"? Only time will tell I suppose. smile.

yellowsubmarine53 Tue 27-Nov-12 15:02:23

I made descriptive comments about your posts learnsay, rather than personal. You on the other hand were very rude numbum, suggesting an inability or disinclination to respond to her very valid questions.

learnandsay Tue 27-Nov-12 15:11:26

I'm not interested in your descriptions of my posts. If you don't have a useful contribution to make please stop contributing.

Lougle Tue 27-Nov-12 15:18:14

I don't understand what the issue is. I read stuff that is below my ability frequently. It doesn't harm me. In fact, I revisit some books and over again, getting something new from it each time.

Unless your DD has a perfect grasp of the grammar, punctuation, intonation, pace, etc., then most readers should be able to be explored in many ways.

mrz Tue 27-Nov-12 16:27:28

"I think you girls have a concern that I don't share. I'm not an examiner. I'm a parent."

No learnandsay we are trying to explain why the school may be sending home books that you find very easy ... they expect your child to be able to read said books unaided and yes I'm afraid your child will be assessed this year on what she can do independently without adult support and the results of those assessments will be reported to you and the government.

mrz Tue 27-Nov-12 16:29:02

and reading scheme books (of any type) aren't part of the EYFS profile

simpson Tue 27-Nov-12 16:33:41

What is part of the EYFS profile (for reading) then??

<<genuine question>>

Since all schools seem to have just reading scheme books to use iyswim??

mrz Tue 27-Nov-12 16:46:42

Children are expected to demonstrate reading in their daily independent activities not in teacher structured lessons so reading books from the book corner or information texts from displays.

I don't know any school that has just reading scheme books simpson ...does your child not have story time or a book corner?

simpson Tue 27-Nov-12 16:51:47

They have a story time (don't know about a book corner as I have never been into the classroom but it does look filled with "stuff" so maybe...)

My main bug bear with my DC school is that it does not have a library....

learnandsay Tue 27-Nov-12 17:04:19

The assessment started last week. Before that the school informed us there would be none.

I'd rather people wouldn't explain my school's procedures to me if they don't know what those procedures are.

numbum Tue 27-Nov-12 17:06:53

Why would I need to head for a dictionary?

mrz Tue 27-Nov-12 17:07:50

We have a library but it is very KS2 focused which is why I've set up an area in KS1 where children can pick a book to read at break times or take home. We also get books from the county library service which children can borrow as they would if they visited the library.

numbum Tue 27-Nov-12 17:14:51

'You on the other hand were very rude numbum, suggesting an inability or disinclination to respond to her very valid questions.'

I HAVE responded plenty of times. I'm not the only poster now confused by what OP is saying. I was asking for clarification because I'd lost track and the OP seemed to have done the same.

I don't see how I was being rude

learnandsay Tue 27-Nov-12 17:19:15

Comments on the topic of books are welcome.

Rehashes of who said what to whom are pointless. You're welcome to open up another thread for that without me if you wish.

mrz Tue 27-Nov-12 17:24:53

I think yellowsubmarine meant to say "You on the other hand were very rude to numbum," not that you were rude

Farewelltoarms Tue 27-Nov-12 18:12:16

You know how you sometimes read those lists of world's worst jobs? Elephant sperm collector, naked sewer cleaner, dictator's personal chef etc. I might add 'teacher of learnandsay's child... ye gods, you are so going to have to chill if you're going to survive the next 14 years. You evidently believe you know so much more than these fool teachers, in which case maybe you should home educate for real.

yellowsubmarine53 Tue 27-Nov-12 19:27:02

Sorry, yes numbum, mrz is absolutely right - I meant to say that learnsay was rude to you, not that you were rude! Sorry, numbum.

grin farewell "You couldn't make this up" is the phrase that keeps going through my mind...

Anyone else feel like doing a virtual whip round for learnsay's dd's teacher....?

numbum Tue 27-Nov-12 19:33:01

blush I am glad I didn't post the first reply I typed to you then yellowsubmarine!!

BooksandaCuppa Tue 27-Nov-12 19:34:42

Do let us know what the school have to say, learnandsay.

Haberdashery Tue 27-Nov-12 20:35:34

>> I'd rather people wouldn't explain my school's procedures to me if they don't know what those procedures are.

But the thing is, nobody is saying anything at all about your school, learnandsay. They are just trying to help you see what the procedures and methods are in the vast majority of schools in this country, in case this gives you a bit of insight into yours (and thus, hopefully, helps you to work with the school instead of against it).

As for no assessment until this half term, you are looking at it in a very black and white way. There was no reading assessment until this half term, I understand that. But from what I understand about EYFS and have observed myself, the teachers and other teaching staff will have been getting to know your daughter and assessing her in a number of different ways, most of which are wholly unconnected to reading at this stage. One half term is six weeks of five days each. This is thirty days. There are probably thirty children in the class if it is a state school. There are probably more than thirty things they may have liked to observe each child doing or attempting before they have a clear picture of how each child functions at school (and I don't only mean academically). Does that make any of it clearer?

Also, I do understand how you want your child to do well and enjoy reading etc, but she's only been at school for, what, eight or nine weeks? I think you need to calm down a bit. You sound quite cross.

mrz Tue 27-Nov-12 20:39:39

and since the "procedures" are set out in a statutory document which all schools must follow then it's pretty easy to explain what schools must do by law!

Can I just say, having revisited this thread afte earlier joining in to ask questions,op I don't ow hat answer your actually looking for, you have, from what I can inf, QUALIFIED TEACHERS advising you on the issue you initially asked about and you're still arguing with them, if yo weren't willing to hear the answers then why ask I'm the first place. I tend not to question my child's teacher on most things, even if I don't necessarily agree, because I believe that they, as a professional, with experience, and guidance know what they are doing.

Also the way you have spoken to people on here who were offering assistance to you is just wrong, and very reminiscent of when my daughter, age three doesn't get the answer she wants from one parent, so goes to another...when she gets a less than satisfactory response from both...she usually resorts to calling us a poo poo head.

Good luck with fixing your problems, can I suggest you take them up with the school, ifnits bothering you so much.

Brycie Tue 27-Nov-12 21:00:27

This is my experience - fifteen to ten years ago most children in my children's schools were reading on scheme books by the end of Reception, about ORT 4 at least. Other books too but that's the easiest way I can describe the level. Most of the children had learned their letters at nursery (middle class area). But in some schools there was very little provision for children who had arrived at school with early reading / phonic "achievement". Everything started at the beginning for everyone - even then in some situations you weren't allowed to read XYZ because what would you then read in Year Two? Some children did get bored and there was little progress in the first months or even year. However it's certainly not beyond them to be reading jolly decently at the end of Reception. Some are nearly six by then.

Tgger Tue 27-Nov-12 21:13:01

Indeed Brycie, like my son (6 in October, now Y1). There is a bit of this attitude hanging on I think re not being particularly ambitious for the good readers- well there was in our school, but the teacher was also willing to work with me and DS as differentiation is also the order of the day nowadays. When I first mentioned that he had read and really enjoyed some of the Magic Key books that we had inherited her first response was "oh, that's what they normally read in Y1" but she was happy to provide some school ones.

simpson Tue 27-Nov-12 21:35:31

This is exactly what I have gone through with my DS to a certain extent which probably does cloud my thinking for DD (now in reception). Although I do trust her teacher actually (who asked parents if they had a copy of Cops and Robbers to share with the class and I took one in today but had been beaten to it by another parent and she told DD that she thought she could read it by herself).

DS is in yr3 now but finished reception on stage 5 (which was very good for his school) and stagnated in yr2 as the school has a policy of not having free readers in KS1 (so languished on lime level for pretty much the whole year - the highest the school goes to, although I do think they have some higher ORT books used for guided reading in KS2).

I guess this is what LandS is worried about....

Brycie - my DD is loving the magic key books too (unlike me,if I hear "and the magic key began to glow"one more time,I will not be responsible for my actions blush - disclaimer, I go into my DC school and hear yr1&2 read).

mrz Tue 27-Nov-12 21:37:27

simpson we don't have free readers in the whole school but that doesn't mean children are stagnating

BooksandaCuppa Tue 27-Nov-12 21:41:56

I loved The Magic Key books (more than the earlier ones which I didn't hate, but didn't love either...)

If you can get hold of The Magic Key episodes DVD, it's fantastic for teaching punctuation almost by osmosis.

simpson Tue 27-Nov-12 21:44:15

No mrz -I do know what you mean,but to have a child on one level all year (when he was blatantly finding it too easy meant he was stagnating IMO at school anyway - although he wasn't because I do the usual (went to the library, 2nd hand shops,bought him books etc - that weren't school reading scheme ones as by then he was totally turned off them)

And then smiled sweetly when he made "exceptional progress"

I have no problem with a child reading books that are too easy for them (unless alarmingly so as it can boost up their fluency,comprehension, writing skills even if they write alternative endings etc, but he was getting so turned off them it was unreal).....

Tgger Tue 27-Nov-12 21:44:54

I guess you hope that by lime level your child has a passion for reading, can get books from other sources, home/library etc so there will not be a worry of "languishing" on lime as the school books are just a small part of what is on offer. The problem comes though I imagine if the child is quite a good reader but not particularly passionate and so needs the passion and stimulation to come from the school to light their flame so to speak.

We are lucky we now have a KS1 library. Am very pleased with this. DS's class seem to have been given pretty free reign on it too. We almost had a problem that DS was bringing too many school library books home (some really interesting good stuff he'd chosen) as well as reading books and then we had our own library books and home books too. We were almost drowning in books. It seems to have all evened out now, and the school reading books we hang onto longer generally and he reads them in his own time (to us) alongside lots of other stuff.

simpson Tue 27-Nov-12 21:45:04

Oh did not realise there was a magic key DVD <<mind boggles - DD would love it>>

numbum Tue 27-Nov-12 21:45:26

I wish my DS hadn't become a free reader in year 1. He was NOT ready. I wish my DS was listened to at school now he's in KS2 but he isn't. I try and listen to him but he's just not keen on reading and his comprehension is pretty shocking and he gets as frustrated as I do when I ask him a simple question about what he's just read and he has no idea how to answer.

There's a parent who has pushed and pushed and got her year 1 child on free readers by pressuring the teacher this year, that parents WILL regret it as much as I do. Their DD isn't ready to be free reading!

Tgger Tue 27-Nov-12 21:45:49

Also wanted to say Mrz you always sound passionate about reading and I think this is so important!

Tgger Tue 27-Nov-12 21:47:00

sorry cross posted simpson smile

numbum Tue 27-Nov-12 21:49:53

We have a Hitler school librarian who wont let DD (who is a much better reader than DS was at that age) have certain books. She tried to take a god awful Rainbow Fairy book out of the school library last week and was told she wasn't ready to read them, even though she's read most of them at home already! She brought home a Percy Parker though and enjoyed that too

simpson Tue 27-Nov-12 21:50:42

Tgger - that is exactly the situation we were in, DS does not have a love of reading (he could take lessons from his sister!!)

I think I am a pretty good judge of what my kids can handle in terms of books I hope!! (was told my DS's yr2 teacher she thought he could handle HP - I had my doubts but gave it a go and got one chapter in and he hated it,did not have a clue what was going on, so binned it and we are re-starting it now a year later).

I would hate to put my kids off reading by going too fast (it's not a race -and as I have said several times,on this thread and others that whilst my DD is a very good reader for her age,it's her love (almost obsession) of wanting to do it that I find amazing tbh).

mrz Tue 27-Nov-12 21:51:11

My daughter was white/lime level by the end of reception (despite being a non reader when she started and having a bad mummy who never heard her read except weekends) but she didn't read for pleasure until she was in her teens

BooksandaCuppa Tue 27-Nov-12 21:52:27

Oops, probably shouldn't have mentioned the DVD...it's very good...and now costs £45 on the big A as it's 'out of print'!!! (Wish I still had our copy to sell!! - Passed onto nephew). I paid £2.99 in Wilko's 7 years ago. I do recommend it though.

Tgger Tue 27-Nov-12 21:53:17

Will not process that magic key DVD info........some things are not necessary grin. Luckily DS is passed that stage and DD hasn't started reading yet and hopefully I will have forgotten by the time she's reading those.......

BooksandaCuppa Tue 27-Nov-12 21:53:48

But you can rent it on Blockbusters and I guess elsewhere...

BooksandaCuppa Tue 27-Nov-12 21:54:46

Oh, but the song's great, tygger. Honestly, it's really good (no, not just because I'm a punctuation geek!)

simpson Tue 27-Nov-12 21:55:19

Numbum - that would drive me insane re librarian!!

DS since the age of 5 has refused bedtimes stories (saying they were babyish) and I tried everything, us reading together, a whole variety of books etc to be met with eye rolling/yawning etc etc...

DD on the other hand, loves bedtime stories and I swear her expression when reading is better than DS's (although his is not dreadful,just could be better and has been highlighted as an area to work on and am am 100% sure it's due to him not listening to me as much as DD has (even though she is younger and reading simpler books).

BooksandaCuppa Tue 27-Nov-12 21:55:31

Sorry about the errant 'y' in your nn.

simpson Tue 27-Nov-12 21:57:38

Mrz - my DC school does have low KS1 results but good KS2 results (not sure if this is due to kids being kept on low book levels in yr2 - cynical).

£45 for magic key DVD shock

Tgger Tue 27-Nov-12 21:58:45

So mrz do you think "go with the child" is the best policy? Ie if child not that passionate just go with the flow and see if they come to it in their own time? I guess some of us parents would like to think our child will be offered good quality stuff to read from school when they are ready for it in the hope of lighting the passion as well as progressing in reading. Passion and progress often go hand in hand? Hmmmmm.

Tgger Tue 27-Nov-12 22:00:13

Oh no! You've got me interested now......I'm not spending £45 though. Will file in brain somewhere and probably get hold of when DD starts reading the stories- she used to pick them as her bedtime stories before I hid them grin..

simpson Tue 27-Nov-12 22:01:55

Tgger - me too!! DD would sooooo love them,but not for £45 though!!!

BooksandaCuppa Tue 27-Nov-12 22:03:58

Looks like you can rent it from Blockbusters though. And I've just found some of them on Youtube (broken in half - there may be full length ones now too, now that you can have any length stuff on there). Anyway, they weren't as good quality as I remember the DVD.

FWIW, you also need the subtitles on to get the whole 'learn punctuation by osmosis' thing!

Glad to have been of help/annoyance!

learnandsay Tue 27-Nov-12 22:10:19
numbum Tue 27-Nov-12 22:12:08

simpson I've told her to just grab any book and I take her to the proper library the same day so she isn't too disheartened! although I may drown myself if I have to listen to her telling me what happened in her latest rainbow fairy book

simpson Tue 27-Nov-12 22:14:28

Oh God, DD is desperate to read Rainbow Fairy books but not there yet have ordered her some Tiara ones to keep her going...

LandS - yes those!!! Don't have a clue what is so good about them except DD is obsessed with the magic key books (ORT 5 onwards)....She would love a DVD!!!

mrz Tue 27-Nov-12 22:17:48

Tgger I don't think you can ensure your child is passionate about books no matter how hard you try you can only hope they find the joy great books can give.

numbum Tue 27-Nov-12 22:17:48

The Rainbow Fairy books are all the same! Rachel and Kirsty find a fairy who's lost something and they need to find it before the goblins do...I'm sure you can guess the ending grin

Thankfully DD is slowly moving away!

BooksandaCuppa Tue 27-Nov-12 22:18:36

They're short episodes featuring Biff, Chip etc and slightly different stories to the learning scheme books; they focus on punctuation. They were part of the BBC Education series a long time ago and I credit them for contributing towards ds's fantastic punctuation skills. 'Twas only me raving about them and I'm sure they're not for everybody. If I still had our copies I would happily send them to the first taker!

numbum Tue 27-Nov-12 22:18:57

I agree mrz. DS will never be passionate about anything other than the world book of records.

Thankfully DD is passionate about books!

BooksandaCuppa Tue 27-Nov-12 22:19:21

Biff, Chip et al.

Tgger Tue 27-Nov-12 22:20:12

Yes, I can see that mrz. I just wondered how you see the relationship between passion and progress and if you still keep offering in hope etc etc and how schools stand in light of pp re stagnating on lime rather than being offered rich literature or if not that rich at this stage then engaging smile..

BooksandaCuppa Tue 27-Nov-12 22:21:08

I think though at mrz's school they have fantastic books 'in' their scheme. Just that many schools don't.

Tgger Tue 27-Nov-12 22:21:15

I guess I can say DS is not passionate about sport at age 6. He is passionate about reading. I keep offering various sports stuff without being that intense about it as I want him to have the option still....

simpson Tue 27-Nov-12 22:21:21

DS is passionate about certain books, but non fiction ie football books, books about earthquakes etc etc

But not fiction....

DD is the other way round grin

Going to make it my mission to find magic key DVD (cheap) for DD!!!

Tgger Tue 27-Nov-12 22:25:06

Good luck! That's great simpson just feed that then re your DS.

mrz Tue 27-Nov-12 22:29:40

My daughter left reception on white/lime and a total lack of interest in reading ...she still isn't an avid reader.

simpson Tue 27-Nov-12 22:34:47

I wonder how kids can leave KS1 or reception on high levels but have zero interest in reading <<curious>>

Tgger - his writing skills need work and the easiest way to help him is to read (ie give him more ideas on words in his creative writing)....but we are getting there grin

Tgger Tue 27-Nov-12 22:37:59

Yes, I find it <<curious>> too. An ability to crack the code but not to engage with the books?

I also am going to challenge mrz rather like I challenged learnandsay and ask if she is the best person to judge that her DD had "a total lack of interest in reading". Clearly she had enough to read the books that got her to that level, rather than refusing/not engaging competely.

mrz Tue 27-Nov-12 22:40:25

She also lived in a house full of books, a mother who read a book a night and a grandfather who read 6 books a day so didn't lack positive role models. She preferred to do things - ballet-swimming- gymnastics -bake cakes... and yes she enjoyed bedtime stories but more for the cuddles than the books.

Tgger Tue 27-Nov-12 22:45:21

Maybe she saw reading books as belonging to her mother and grandfather- takes amateur psychologist hat off quickly.....

mrz Tue 27-Nov-12 22:45:30

I think the fact that she didn't read at all in the home despite having access to hundreds of children's books was a bit of a clue (and yes I was a bad mummy who rarely heard her read ).

simpson Tue 27-Nov-12 22:46:59

I wonder if she found it like a code to crack and once cracked did not have any further interest....

DS is getting better with fiction and now trusts me to find books he likes (he loved Charlottes's Web once he got about a third of the way in)....

Tgger Tue 27-Nov-12 22:47:16

were you too busy/not interested? Don't answer if you don't feel appropriate...just curious seeing how you are so passionate yourself...

simpson Tue 27-Nov-12 22:47:38

Lol at bad mummy who barely heard her read grin

mrz Tue 27-Nov-12 22:49:36

good idea Tgger because her brother is an avid reader, her grandmother was a reader ....she just says she didn't find reading fun (and still doesn't)

simpson Tue 27-Nov-12 22:49:46

Or is it because you are knackered from work?? <<genuine>>

I do find it harder to motivate myself to listen to my kids read when I have done 2 hours listening to kids read at DC school.

TBH the main reason I do it is because whilst DS would be happy to have a night off, DD would have such a temper tantrum about it, it's just easier to hear her read!!!

mrz Tue 27-Nov-12 22:53:09

When my daughter was in reception I was at university also nursing my mother who was dying from cancer and bringing up two young children one who had SEN, as a widowed mother

Tgger Tue 27-Nov-12 22:53:18

I enjoy listening to DS read and will carry on doing so everyday or most days for a while yet. My parents said that once we could read they let us get on with it and didn't read to us either shock. I guess kids are quite resilient and will find their own way. DH is a bookworm and whilst I love books I don't read as much as I would like (too busy on MN...)

Tgger Tue 27-Nov-12 22:54:23

Ah, now I feel humbled. Apologies. Life...... blush.

mrz Tue 27-Nov-12 22:56:55

No need to apologise smile

Tgger Tue 27-Nov-12 22:57:00

That must have been a tough time.

numbum Tue 27-Nov-12 22:58:12

'I wonder if she found it like a code to crack and once cracked did not have any further interest....'

My DS who hates reading is extremely 'mathsy'. He loves codes, he loves working things out. I think that statement is true for him! He understood how to read and that was it for him. The fact that he doesn't 'understand' reading isn't relevant to him because he thinks 'I know how to read'

mrz Tue 27-Nov-12 23:00:17

I think she saw reading as something you need to be able to do but I'll wait for the DVD thanks

simpson Tue 27-Nov-12 23:03:55

Sorry mrz - that sounds really tough sad

Tgger - I on the whole enjoy listening to my kids read (although getting DS to fill in his reading diary is a daily battle).

KS1 leader came up to me today to say she is assessing all the kids in yr2 ATM and their comprehension levels (not decoding) have rocketed since I have started reading with them (5 weeks now) which makes me smile and think that I might be actually asking the right questions to go with their books which was always my worry (and a worry with my own DC)...

simpson Tue 27-Nov-12 23:04:48

Numbum - my DS is very similar....

learnandsay Tue 27-Nov-12 23:06:07

Agree. Sounds miserable. You're still a star though.

Tgger Tue 27-Nov-12 23:06:39

Fab simpson. Well done. smile (feels a bit guilty that she doesn't ask DS much about his books......ah well...)

numbum Tue 27-Nov-12 23:07:12

I have two very stereotypical children. DS (7) is amazing at maths, science, ICT. DD (5) is amazing at reading, writing, chattering non stop about anything and everything grin

Tgger Tue 27-Nov-12 23:11:08

Ah, but maybe they will surprise you in their teenage years...or maybe not...!

I have two very imaginative, "mad", kids who so far (bit early to say 6 and 4) both love books, are highly inquisitive and are following in their parents' "slightly geeky but hopefully can fit in with the mainstream" footsteps. Their ICT skills are roughly on a par with mine....

simpson Tue 27-Nov-12 23:18:27

DS is a bit geeky (in a cute way) loves facts, sports, science,maths etc

DD is a league of her own who does not shut up and talks a lot!!

I am very lucky in that DD is hypermobile and has daily physio/ OT at school (saves me doing it at home!!) so no matter how bad things get at school for her (and they are great ATM and long may it stay that way - but looking at yr1 reading records today,they have not been read with for 2 weeks) I would be very reluctant to lose that (the physio support)

Tgger Tue 27-Nov-12 23:24:00

Awwww, they sound great.

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