school is failing my son and boys

(82 Posts)
Loopylewanderin2 Sun 25-Mar-12 13:24:03

Hi I am new to this, but after doing a search thought mumsnet may be helpful - I have a bit of an ongoing issue with my sons primary school (he is yr 4)..
I moved him to this school last Feb following 4 years of bullying at his old school, this led to low self esteem, aggressiveness and my son was under cahms and thenwhen school was changed he was discharged as the problems went away.
Behaviour changed again in autumn last year to something very similar but also he began making comments about hating hislife, wanting to die and went so far as to attempt to burn his hair off (he is strawberry blonde but gets called for it) schhol initially would not listen and placed him on school action plan and his IEP said he had to refrain from shouting out answers in the class, lying about his peers. I (single mam) and my mother (ex social worker) met with the head and she finally began to listen and investigate, it was found he was not nbeing bullied as such but that inhis year group there was a group of boys (of which he was part) who all wanted o be the leader of the gang so to speak and therefore play and such was very rough (they were alowed to play dodge ball in the yard etc) she would keep an eye on it!
Things seemed to settle down and he became established within the group of boys, made a best friend and behaviour at home setled down again and he actually wanted to go to school. I recevived numerous positive reports about him, he even won pupil of the week, is top table maths and science and second top for literacy/comprehension. In his parents review his teacher kept referring to him as a 3 point child and all was very positive.
Then I witnessed an incident in the yard one mornoing where these boys (inc son) were getting very rough with one another, one child had my sons arms behind his back another child had hold of another child by the ears and this child was on the floor - one parent shouted at their child to stop i just went over and removed my son from the situation and took him to the teaching assistant who was on morning yard duty. I explained what had hapened and was confronted with "have you told your mother what you did yesterday" znd from that thigs escalated. my son became very upset and annoyed and was taken into school. When i called later i was advised by the acting head (who is also my sons class teacher mon - wed) that my son had been removed from the class because of his actions that morning in the yard - I asked what she meant and she informed me he had (in front of me) dragged another child across the yard and had injured the childs back! I advised her i witnessed the events and that had in no way occurred also other parents had witnessed it and wouold support me - she said I was his mother therefore would defend him. THings escalated again and i did lose my temper and threatended to remove him there and then from school she threatened me with the EWO and social services! so i contacted the EWO and schhol nurse myself, they set up a meeting with the acting head, me, son and themselves for the following week - the meeting was very positive but the acting hea took no notes at all, the ewo and nurse didand the conclusion was that the school was not cping with this group of boys very well and instead of looking at the bigger picture were singling out my son as he was owning up to any of the fighting etc that was happening, however whn he would then deny having involvement in other incidents they said he was ying and as it had been him before it was hi now! The EWO remedy was to involve an outside behaviour person who would work with the group of boys! I since found out that the acting head wil only allow her to work with my son as he is the instigator apparently!
On friday i received a call from her at 3.25 asking me to come straight to school and collect my son as she was not allowing him to atend the after school cricket club - i asked why and she said beacause she was unable to supervise it and she felt after an incident at lunch time my son was a danger to the children at the club. I got very defensive and demanded reason as to why and she said he had kneed another child in the privates at kunch time, and then in afternoon break another child had ran at my son and to stop him my son had raised his knee again and had caught the child in the thiogh but it was obviously meant for the privates, and great injury had happened. She said she woild be discussin exclusion with the head on monday.
My immediate reaction was to collect hima nd shout at her!
When i had collected him i asked what had happened and he said theother child had kicked him in the shin (showed me huge bruise) so he kneed him back, he said the later incident was not intentioanl but the boy was running at him so he raised his leg to brace himself for the impact!
I fell like the school ( inparticular the acting head) is using my son as a scape goat - I am at a loss as to what to do - the princiapal head is a very scary lady and is retiring hence she is only working mon - wed. I amvery concerned about what to do with my son tomorrow - send himin or keep him at home!
Also where do i stand with this - as my son has an IEP still (he was taken off but then placed onit gain wheni contacted the EWO) surely they cannot exclude him as although he has not got a statement isn't an IEP an indication he has special needs? or are IEP's a way to get an outstanding ofsted report ( school recently got this awarded after only being a god school before but teaching side was still only satisfactory) the ofsted report also points outh they are not catering for boys's needs. I am really at a loss!!!
Sorry for the waffle but am new to this and will gte used to the abbreviations I should be using!!!
thanks to anyone who can help in advance!!

SchoolsNightmare Sun 25-Mar-12 13:45:32

That's quite a long post. Basically there is a very rowdy group of boys all fighting to be top-dog and your DS sometimes behaves badly but other times acts to defend himself yet the school only seem to be blaming him for all the incidents and think that the only intervention needed is for your son not for the group as a whole?

What is his IEP for? What additional help or support does he get?

If you have exhausted all options with the Head Teacher and other agencies, have you written formally to the Governors to complain and to investigate this. They will have to take into account the EWO and Nurse's evidence too if that is in writing.

You cannot leave things like this but little seems to be changing which is why you probably need a more formal approach and to get the Governors involved. In the meantime record EVERYTHING. Keep a written journal of every incident, communicate with the school by email or letter so it creates a paper trail and take photographs of your son's injuries.

Loopylewanderin2 Sun 25-Mar-12 14:11:46

Hi thanks for responding - my DS (getting the abbreviations now) is no angel at all, and yeah, sometimes is the instigator and sometimes defending himself, of the group of boys he is the only one from single parent home (have DS of 3 too) prob not relevant but at this point i am feeling things personally!
The IEP was for shouting out in class and not raising his hand which they termed disruptive and for lying about his peers (accusing them of bullying him) it was later found that the lying was in fact not lying at all!! There are no other agencies actually involved which is why I am confuswed - the EWO said that the school would benefit as a whole with behavioural management for the group of boys as a whole! he related this in the meeting and arranged for soemone to contact the school to sort it as yet nothinghas been put inplace but i have been told that the school will only allow the person to work with my DS.
It is confusing also as the school has 2 heads - mrs W mon - wed (principal head but on a phased out retirement) and the Mrs S thurs and Fri - Mrs S is the class teacher mon - wed and deputy head mon to wed. SO my understanding is any complaint re the Head goes direct to the governors, or will it go the principal head first?
Also mrs S has said some very nasty things to my son such as "we need a break from you L" "you need to be watched carefully L as you are a danger to othes" irony is when out at a local park last weekend with Gran, my DS bunped into Mrs S who stood for over 30 mins discussing DS with his gran!! LEtting DS (the danger to others) entertain her own 3 year old!
I have taken pictures of the brusises but will they even look at them?
thanks again

Loopylewanderin2 Sun 25-Mar-12 14:15:18

sorry but missed out another point - on friday Mrs S had kept Ds from his lessons and made him sit outside her office, she only decided he could not attend cricket club at 3.20 and only contacted me at 3.25!! Also it was only that morning that she was positively praising him to me and advsiing me how bright he was a nd a joy to have in her class! I did raise an issue of concern with her that morning about the rough play in the yard and it feels as if every time i raise an issue she finds one to raise back! like tit for tat!

SchoolsNightmare Sun 25-Mar-12 14:34:28

It sounds that the school are not coping well with the disruptive behaviour from a group of boys and are therefore taking last minute or ill thought out action instead of getting a proper plan in place. That is why I think you need to log all of these things and go to the Governors.

The chain of command (and the order in which you should complain) goes Class Teacher, then Head Teacher and if you still get no joy it should be a written formal complaint to the Chair of Governors.
The reason for this is, the Governors are "above" the Head Teacher in this respect and any written complaint will need to be properly addresses instead of all this knee-jerk business of last minute punishments and exclusions. Whoever is right or wrong, they need to follow process and do things formally not gossip in the park about it and bombard you with phonecalls all day and threats. They need a proper strategy and that is where a complaint to the Governors will hopefully help. It is not just you saying this is needed, it is the EWO too and that should carry some weight.

The reason for logging all conversations and incidents and photographing injuries is that you feel the school is scarpgoating your son. You fear he may be excluded. You need to be in a position to appeal this if it happens. You need to prove the school had no proper policy, they ignored the EWO advice to get proper intervention and that your DS is not just the bully but often the victim as well (hence photographing his injuries and logging all letters and phonecalls to the school to prove you made them aware of this).

It sounds like the whole thing has got out of control to be honest but you need to do the right thing, follow the right procedures and keep evidence in case the school take further action.

Loopylewanderin2 Sun 25-Mar-12 14:52:16

Thanks again - I am going to get back in touch with the EWO fisrt thing tomorrow but am inclined to keep DS off school, his attendance is at 93.5% so a day shouldn't matter and they are threatening exclusion so he would lose time anyway.. I will write to the governors and see where that gets me, but will also approach the principal head as she is in mon till wed so she may be able to sort this. Things only occur on a thrusday and friday tbh when Mrs S is head so it mayb e Mrs W has no idea what is going on
thanks and I will update when i get any repsonses

jamdonut Sun 25-Mar-12 15:50:14

From a school-workers point of view the "We all need a break from you" comment sounds like everyone is at the end of their tether with the behaviour.

We have some children like this at school. They absolutely wear you down with their antics. And yet you feel guilty for feeling like that, because there are always mitigating circumstances. However, it helps if parents work with you rather than against you all the time.

What he probably has is an IBP (Individual Behaviour Plan) as opposed to an IEP (Individual Education Plan), although both are usually overseen by the SenCo.

nmason Sun 25-Mar-12 23:38:22

I do caution you about trying to keep control of your temper. Ionia it is very hard not to get angry but nothing gets sorted in the heat of the moment or shouting. It really can undermine the relationshipwith the teacher if you are doing this infront of your child, this may explain why Thursdays and Fridays are worse? I know that isn't the only reason but it really doesn't help. At the core the S
School (which it may not feel like) and you both want the best for you child. Personally I would be pointing out to ds that after being kicked in the shins he should have told someone (so they would have got in trouble) as it is extremely dangerous to knee someone between the legs. If there have been a number of violent events involving your son then an ebp should be in place and if it continues then exclusion would be considered. I would arrange to see the mon head tomorrow if possible, without ds present to put an ebp in place and discussa way forward rationally.

nmason Sun 25-Mar-12 23:39:22

Obviously I meant ibp not ebp! Yawn, I should be a sleep!

learnandsay Mon 26-Mar-12 21:15:58

The boys should all join a junior boxing club and fight it out there. School is for learning in not fighting in.

Primafacie Tue 27-Mar-12 01:24:35

You are giving your son a terrible example by shouting at the teacher/head.

Stop being defensive and stop trying to find fault in other children - your son is going feral and keeps hitting/fighting/disrupting classes. Let the school and other parents deal with other kids. You should listen to what the school is telling you: your son is unruly and needs discipline, otherwise he is becoming a danger to others. Maybe focus on that instead of shooting the messenger?

Teach him how to resolve conflicts peacefully, or at least how to walk away from it.

It is very unfortunate that you keep threatening to remove your son. What good will come of that? His behaviour needs to change. That is what I would be working to address.

jamdonut Tue 27-Mar-12 07:25:00

By the way, the school "failing boys" seems to be an Ofsted 'catch all' at the moment. Same was said of our school. So in a few years when we have refocussed on boys and all is well with them, I immagine the new thing will be "Girls are being failed" . Again. hmm

jamdonut Tue 27-Mar-12 07:25:43


SoupDragon Tue 27-Mar-12 07:38:08

What are you doing to correct your son's behaviour? He is clearly no angel (and I have one of those myself!) and needs to be taught how to play without all the fighting.

Obviously all of the boys need to have the fighting and roughness cracked down on but you can only deal with your own child.

Al0uise Tue 27-Mar-12 07:42:53

At 4 years old?

No 4 year old should be behaving like this.

Trix2323 Tue 27-Mar-12 07:43:02

Excluding your DS from cricket as a punishment seems an odd idea - it sounds as though these boys needed more sport, not less.

SchoolsNightmare has offered some sensible advice.

OP, try to keep cool when you are dealing with the head, etc. Shouting and threatening won't help.

kilmuir Tue 27-Mar-12 07:45:12

I do think you need to work on your sons behaviour and the school needs to tackle all the 'gang' behaviour. He is year 4 not reception

SoupDragon Tue 27-Mar-12 07:45:13

No Al0uise, he is in year 4.

cory Tue 27-Mar-12 07:45:54

Al0uise, the OP's son is in Year 4- so about 8 or 9.

cory Tue 27-Mar-12 07:59:10

OP, I think there are various things you should be doing.

First of all, make it clear to your son that if he misbehaves you won't be interested in whether the other boys are behaving in the same way: you expect better from him. (I have an 11yo and it is relentless work- but necessary)

Secondly, make it clear to him that he must ask for help immediately if he is bullied. Never retaliate, always get an adult.

Thirdly, try to re-establish your relationship with the school. Like it or not, you need to get them to take you seriously as an adult. Start by assuring them that you do take your ds' behaviour very seriously and are committed to making sure that he behaves. Only then start talking about the bullying and ask them for help in sorting it out.

Fourth, as Nightmare says, keep a log of all incidents.

GooseyLoosey Tue 27-Mar-12 08:15:36

My ds is in Yr 4 and there is a group of boys in his class who can be out of control. It has led to some quite awful instances of bullying aimed at my son and another child and yet he still wants to be part of this group.

The main rule for ds when there is trouble is to run and tell the head or his class teacher - not a playground supervisor. All of the teachers are on board with this. We discourage lashing out or hitting back (unless necessary to defend himself - I do not want him to be a victim). The school have also worked with this group of boys and the head has sat down with them and talked about how they all feel and why they think things end up the way they do.

It helped a little. However, I am aware that for ds's sake we also need to look at why he is always the one singled out and try and address the behaviours he has which make the others turn on him. He has to be able to survive and wants so much to fit in with this group. We have spent a long time going over what might have gone wrong in various situations and how he could have acted differently.

Finally, I have always approached the school in the spirit of cooperation "thanks for what you have done so far - how can I help - is there anything else we can do" and I generally have a good relationship with the head.

learnandsay Tue 27-Mar-12 20:30:41

I suppose it depends on what you say to him, but isn't it difficult to stop a young boy fighting by talking to him, especially if there are lots of other boys who want to fight? I think there really needs to be some sort of sanction. I'm not sure what merely talking will achieve and there's a real chance that the boy has heard it all before, anyway.

Goosey, I suspect that he's always singled out because he's most often right in the thick of it, swinging and pulling and punching. (Of course it's never his fault.)

Feenie Tue 27-Mar-12 20:46:13

Massive sweeping generalisation there, learnandsay - you can't possibly know that from what GooseyLoosey has posted.

learnandsay Tue 27-Mar-12 20:50:51

Feenie, I'm not a betting woman, but I'd have a crisp tenner out on this one.

Feenie Tue 27-Mar-12 20:53:09

Learnandsay, you are out of order. You are maligning someone else's child on a hunch? shock

learnandsay Tue 27-Mar-12 20:57:12

OK, there's a hunch involved, (evidence is hard to come by in a forum posting.)

But there is an issue involved, otherwise this thread wouldn't exist. So there's something else going on besides.

mrz Tue 27-Mar-12 21:01:14

I would hate to live in your black & white world learnandsay real life is never so full of certainty as you seem to be on everything.

learnandsay Tue 27-Mar-12 21:04:28

Too true, mrz, too true. (We shouldn't really be getting personal.) But I have heard that criticism of myself before. But I don't like these grey areas in life. They seem to spread and spread until nobody knows what's going on. I've tried grey areas a few times and it's never worked out.

mrz Tue 27-Mar-12 21:10:35

There will always be grey areas when dealing with people

Feenie Tue 27-Mar-12 21:16:13

(We shouldn't really be getting personal.)

No - especially where other posters' children are concerned when we haven't got a clue.

learnandsay Tue 27-Mar-12 21:16:48

Well, that's true. But in my day many of them were settled by the cane and the slipper. There's only so much behaviour re-arrangement that you can organise by talking to challenging children. I think we're getting much too touchy feely these days and it's all going down hill as a result.

learnandsay Tue 27-Mar-12 21:19:22

Well, Feenie, the boy has been fighting and that's a bit of a clue. And teachers have been saying we all need a break from you. That's clue number two. So Miss Marple could be getting busy here no problem.

mrz Tue 27-Mar-12 21:20:51

learnandsay I'll repeat I'm so relieved I don't live in your world shock

Feenie Tue 27-Mar-12 21:24:59

But you weren't talking about the OP's ds, learnandsay - you addressed GooseyLoosey directly about the reasons her ds were being singled out. From just one innocuous post. His teachers hadn't said any such thing.

learnandsay Tue 27-Mar-12 21:29:13

Oh, right, Feenie. That's my mistake. I thought Goosey was using the first person to refer to the OP's child. You're quite correct. But it was a mistake on my part. I wasn't intending to make any statement about Goosey's child.

Feenie Tue 27-Mar-12 21:30:23


You'll be apologising profusely to GooseyLoosey any time soon then.....

learnandsay Tue 27-Mar-12 21:31:58

Quite right,

Goosey, sincere and abject apologies.

Feenie Tue 27-Mar-12 21:32:00

But in my day many of them were settled by the cane and the slipper. There's only so much behaviour re-arrangement that you can organise by talking to challenging children. I think we're getting much too touchy feely these days and it's all going down hill as a result.

Wrong forum - surely you meant to post this in the DM comments section?

Would you be happy for your own child to be hit with a cane or a slipper at school?

learnandsay Tue 27-Mar-12 21:35:38

Well, I'd sincerely hope that my children wouldn't do anything that would require such treatment. But if they did, I'd much rather that they had short sharp shock treatment than this depressing, disruptive, long drawn out failure that seems to be associated with all of this touchy feely inclusion behaviour on the part of schools and LEAs.

Feenie Tue 27-Mar-12 21:40:06

touchy feely inclusion


So, if your child, God forbid, had something horrendous to deal with in their life, and their behaviour went downhill for a while as a result - let's be clear here - on comments you've made here and elsewhere, you would be perfectly happy for them to be a) hit by someone in authority at school b) removed elsewhere (you still won't say where) so that they don't 'interfere' with the teaching of other people's children ?

5madthings Tue 27-Mar-12 21:41:01

it sounds like 6 of one, half a dozen of the other to me tbh, boys this age can fight, and they often start off simply playing rough and then get carried away, they still lack impulse control at this age and may not mean to hurt each other.

i think the op was wrong to lose her temper with the ht? and i think she needs to set very clear boundaries with her ds, that he must WALK AWAY when its gets rough, tell a teacher if he needs to. but at this age it is hard for them in the heat of the moment to remember to do this, but it still must be insisted on and i woudl have consequences for this kind of behaviour if i was told by a teacher it was happening (and i have been through it with my ds2) in our house it was no xbox, or not football club (the worst punishment in the world to my ds2)

i think its interesting the EWO thinks all the boys need help managing their friendships and behaviour and its wrong for the school to single the one child out when it does sound like they are all involved.

did the op mentino exclusion? which would be an over reaction to this situation,t he school need to look at other options, have they tried lunch time detentions, a reward chart style behaviour chart? this worked well with my own ds2, he had a report card type thing he had to give to the breaktime and lunchtime moniters and he would get red or green depending on his behaviour, it really helped him to focus and think about his behaviour and he is good now at walking away when he starts to feel wound up etc. In my sons case other childrne were deliberately provoking him as they knew he would react, the school were great at talkign to these children and making it clear that was NOT ok.

all these children need to learn boundaries and they need help to do so.

also if they are happening predominantly at lunch time/break time it may help if the school organise some more structured play ie football or other games where the boys can run around and burn off some energy (which they need to do) and be competitive in a more controlled way. this is also a technique used at my sons school.

i dont think the op needs to go in all guns blazing, i think she needs to say, ok there is an issue with my sons behaviour and i want to work with the school to resolve this, so how can we back each other up and work together. smile

5madthings Tue 27-Mar-12 21:43:56

oh and op if you are friends with the other parents of the boys involved, it may be worht approaching them and saying you are aware there is rough behaviour with the boys and you are dealing with it etc, and see if they are talking to their boys, maybe even get the boys together out of school so they can play together and work out how to play wihtout being rough.

learnandsay Tue 27-Mar-12 21:48:04

Perfectly happy is probably the opposite of what I'd be feeling. But that doesn't make it wrong. School is not (in my view) the place for dealing with broken children. It's (in my view) the place for teaching them. So, suppose that my girls had some awful trauma to deal with, and this is not impossible, then I would not expect their school to be in any way qualified, experienced or responsible for dealing with it. If my family couldn't deal with it, or worse, was responsible for creating it in the first place, then eventually the children would have to be taken away from us by Social Services. What (in my view) should the school do? Tell my girls to behave or face sanctions.

Feenie Tue 27-Mar-12 21:51:07

If my family couldn't deal with it.....then eventually the children would have to be taken away from us by Social Services.

Oh, so now disruptive children, who may have already have had terrible trauma in their lives have the security of their school life AND their home life taken away from them?


5madthings Tue 27-Mar-12 21:53:00

this isnt 'broken child' its a boy who has a history of being bullied who is struggling to fit in and find his place in a group of children at his new school! so yes the school should be dealing with it, in conjunction with his parents to help him!

and you do know that 'broken children' who are looked after by ss DO go to normal schools as well? my dp works with these 'broken children'as you deem them and they deserve an education just as much as any other child and that means going to school with the support of the school and any other services deemed necessary!

learnandsay Tue 27-Mar-12 21:53:22

Well, some of them already do. I didn't invent Social Services.

learnandsay Tue 27-Mar-12 21:55:14

5mad, not all of these comments any more necessarily relate to the OP.

Feenie Tue 27-Mar-12 21:55:20

There are many, many unhappy children, learnandsay, and some of them do misbehave because of their horrible homelives. School is sometimes the only little bit of security they have.

5madthings Tue 27-Mar-12 21:55:34

so you are saying they shouldnt go to school?!

removing a child from their home is quite rightly a last resort and ss will do all possible to help a family so they can stay together and to help the child and the parents work together to resolve problems and part of doing that means they go to school, they need an education, simply stopping them from going to school will simply make a bad situation worse.

5madthings Tue 27-Mar-12 21:56:29

ALL children deserve and are entitled to an education.

learnandsay Tue 27-Mar-12 21:59:21

Feenie, I'm sure that's true. But it shouldn't be true. If broken children do require additional social or psychological support then it shouldn't happen in schools because schools aren't staffed by psychologists and social workers they're staffed by teachers. If you're going to put social workers and psychologists on the school staff, then fine.

5madthings Tue 27-Mar-12 22:02:08

sometimes it happens in school, sometimes it doesnt but they still need to go to school and additional support IS provided if necessary, my dp has gone in to be a one to one with children that need that extra support. ultimately going to school is part of the process that these children need to succeed and get on with their lives. Yes many need psychologists, counsellors and all kinds of other help, they still need to go to school as well and this extra help can be provided in schools (and it is sometimes) and out of school hours, but education is hugely important and it would be very wrong to deny them that.

mrz Tue 27-Mar-12 22:04:08

Fortunately there aren't many people who think that way.

Feenie Tue 27-Mar-12 22:04:29

If you're going to put social workers and psychologists on the school staff, then fine.

Schools regularly work with social workers and psychologists, learnandsay.

mrz Tue 27-Mar-12 22:05:38

Sorry that was to learnandsay not 5madthings
My job is to teach ALL children !!

learnandsay Tue 27-Mar-12 22:05:49

5mad, I agree that broken children should have a good education. I just don't think that they should get it in a conventional school.

mrz Tue 27-Mar-12 22:06:59

It's a huge part of my role to work with outside agencies

Feenie Tue 27-Mar-12 22:10:08

So again - when you rip these poor kids (finding 'broken' children very offensive, btw) out of what may be their only place of security in their lives at that time, where do you want to chuck them, learnandsay?

5madthings Tue 27-Mar-12 22:10:47

oh yes just put them all in some 'special schools' learnandsay isolate them further from a normal life? what a stupid idea, they NEED normalcy,they need to go to a regular school (some of them, some DO need a different more tailored education) there is as there should be collaboration between schools, ss and other agencies to help these children to have as normal a life as possible if we want to have any hope of breaking the cycle of abuse and neglect then these children need more than anything to attend school and get a good education and a good start to life and part of that means going to a normal school and making friends and doing all the things that other children do.

the kids my dp works with even go on 'playdates' to the houses of their friends from school and arrange to meet them out of school etc, jsut because they are living in the care system does not mean that they should be segregated even more!

learnandsay Tue 27-Mar-12 22:11:43

Feenie and mrz, I admire your dedication and maybe I can be persuaded that you're right. But common sense suggests to me that if teachers concentrated on teaching and didn't spend time on social inclusion administration then children would be better educated.

5madthings Tue 27-Mar-12 22:11:51

feenie i dont think she cares as long as its not in a conventional school with her children, its a case of not in my back yard...

learnandsay Tue 27-Mar-12 22:14:17

5mad, maybe you're right. But I think that I've thought about it a little more than that. If a teacher has a truly broken child to deal with then there is a certain amount of time with which she can't be teaching.

Feenie Tue 27-Mar-12 22:14:59

Indeed - not near her PFB angry

Learnandsay, you are astoundingly ignorant. Unfortunately, I find I have to liaise with outside agencies all the time for some very unhappy children in my class. I somehow still manage to concentrate on my teaching and educate them to an extremely high standard, thanks.

learnandsay Tue 27-Mar-12 22:19:44

OK, Feenie. Maybe none of your children are the ones where parents are asking why can't my Y2 son read? Maybe none of your children have parents asking why have my children not progressed in their current year? But there are parents in this forum asking those questions.

5madthings Tue 27-Mar-12 22:21:54

'a truly broken child' [agnry] they arent broken, they have some extra needs, would you call a SN child 'broken' you DID notice that when i used that term after you i put it in brackets to highlight the fact that it is not ok. they are just children, perfectly normal children who happen to have unfortunately suffered from bad parenting or abuse or neglect, they are not 'broken' they are a child that needs love and care and support and part of that is helping them to attend school and get an education and it can be done in mainstream schools with support in place. what support is needed will vary from child to child and with each individual school, they do NOT need isolating further.

feenie thankgoodness for people like you who do try and make it work for these children, because they need it so so much x

Feenie Tue 27-Mar-12 22:22:45

They certainly are not - and not in my school, either. But it is a huge - and fairly offensive - leap to assume that those children are not progressing because of their time spent dealing with outside agencies to help what you term so insultingly as broken children.

Feenie Tue 27-Mar-12 22:24:46

Thankfully, 5madthings, I agree with mrz in that I think views like learnandsay's are rare smile

learnandsay Tue 27-Mar-12 22:27:43

Well, Feenie, maybe it is and maybe it isn't. But logically, if teachers spent all their time teaching then children would be better taught. Anything that distracts teachers from teaching fails to benefit the main class. It might hugely benefit an individual child. (And that's what this row is about.) But I disagree with the principle of benefiting an individual child at the expense of the group.

Feenie Tue 27-Mar-12 22:34:53

But logically, if teachers spent all their time teaching

All my time? So....planning and preparation time, post 3.30p.m., lunchtimes, playtimes, assembly times...... We can't spend every minute of our working week actually teaching a class, learnandsay. And a phone call to a social worker or a meeting with an ed psych doesn't 'distract' me - far from it. And none of that is at anyone's 'expense' - not even your PFB's.

learnandsay Tue 27-Mar-12 22:39:02

I surmise that the exam results of failing inner-city schools don't bear out that interpretations of the facts, Feenie.

5madthings Tue 27-Mar-12 22:41:14

oh and you know all about the catchement areas of these schools and all the children that attend...

Feenie Tue 27-Mar-12 22:41:27

And again, you have no idea whether the reasons for all those failing schools are entirely down to meetings with outside agencies regarding children who need them, learnandsay. You seem to be given to sweeping generalisations.

learnandsay Tue 27-Mar-12 22:52:58

Generalisations, yes. But I'd find it hard to believe that if all of the available children in a class were well behaved and eager to learn that the school would have problems teaching them. I understand that some schools in the Third World teach children without school buildings, because the children really want to be there. They believe that education is a privilege.

mrz Wed 28-Mar-12 06:48:13

I think an important lesson to teach is tolerance and compassion for others perhaps you were off that day learnandsay. For the record all my Y2 class will leave me able to read and write

SoupDragon Wed 28-Mar-12 07:06:17

"But logically, if teachers spent all their time teaching then children would be better taught."

It is far more important that children spend their time learning. Which is not the same as a teacher spending all their time teaching them.

5madthings Wed 28-Mar-12 08:52:07

and education can be seen as a privelidge, i see it a right that all children deserve, regardless of their circumstances.

and i agreew with soup dragon school is about learning and so is life, i dont leave it all up to the school, we work together and i back up what they help my children learn and with regards to compassion etc my ds2 was slightly miffed the other day that with work my dp went to see a premier league football match, he took one of the children he cares for (they get tickets occasionally, given complimentary by the local premiership club as its an opportunity they children wouldnt get otherwise) my ds2 saw it as them getting an amazing treat which he would love, he is right it is an amazing treat, but we then pointed out to him that yes this child got to see a premiership football match, but he doesnt have a family to live with, he doesnt have a normal parent/child relationship etc and he quickly realised that tho he may not get expensive treats like the football match, he is very lucky to have the life he does have and he wouldnt swop it.

Tomsolomon Sun 03-Feb-13 12:53:51

As a single parent with a son in a similar situation I can empathise with the OP. Things have gone much further in our case though. We moved to a new school last year to get away from his mum and he settled in very well to start with, although things changed after a while. I noticed four other boys surrounding him in the playground before school punching and kicking him. Of course I immediately removed him from the situation and reported it to his teacher. I was told that what happens before school was none of their concern and I should deal with it. but surely if this sort of behaviour was going on before school, it was going on during school.
This began to happen on a daily basis and all the while DS's behaviour and school work began to suffer with him being singled out as a trouble maker, I found out later from the head that they knew about the problem and the children had been spoken too, what she didn't know is that my son had been outnumbered four to one. He never fought before he attended this school, he came home one night and he knew how to punch. I never taught him that.
Anyway as things stand, my son has had to attend a short stay rehabilitation school for his behaviour. This school has some of the most badly behaved children in the county, Guess what, they leave him alone, he doesn't get picked on and he is currently top of the class. He still attends his normal school on occasional afternoons which he cannot stand to be at. They have colour charts for behaviour and he always ends up in red, which is followed on to the short stay school the following day and he always manages to get back into green by break time.
Now the head, the liaison officer between the schools and a few others seem to think the problem lies either at home, or DS is having separation problems or the trip to school is stressing him out. If this was the case then his behaviour would be the same at the short stay school surely. I have been lumbered with a parenting class where I am teaching the group more than the lecturers.
I feel like the school has let him down at a time where he needs as much support as he can get, they are talking about exclusion if his behaviour doesn't improve. I feel like they are not taking his feelings into consideration. This is most apparent when it took one of his teachers an hour and a half to talk him out from under a table. It's almost as if they want to give up on him. The same teacher expected me to punish my son after he had already been punished for this.

I know this is an old thread, but I could really do with some advice on this. before things get too out of hand.

ipadquietly Sun 03-Feb-13 16:55:31

mrz: 'It's a huge part of my role to work with outside agencies'
So is it mine, if there were outside agencies willing to work with me. I have a child on full statement, who gets not-a-second of outside agency support. sad But that's another story....

OP, just one thing. I think you should be a bit careful about going into school all guns blazing.
Some of the situations you've quoted happened in the school day, when you weren't around, so you have no evidence of the course of events (apart from your ds's story). I'm not saying your ds has been lying - it's just that sometimes children have a very warped different impression to an adult of what has gone on!

socharlotte Sun 03-Feb-13 18:30:44

Maybe I am very old fashioned but I think schools should have some vigorous physical sports activity for boys to challenge their boisterousness into.A cool male teacher to run martial arts, rugby,trampolining classes etc.

Op I think you need to go through situations with your DS which are likely to end up in trouble, and give him ways to cope with these situations before they escalate.
You and the school need to be looking forward at preventative measures trying to find out 'who did what to whom first' would defeat of Scotland Yard's finest.

socharlotte Sun 03-Feb-13 18:31:18

channel their boisterousness

ipadquietly Sun 03-Feb-13 18:56:23

Sorry socharlotte - so you don't think girls should be offered these cool activities with cool male teachers, then?

socharlotte Mon 04-Feb-13 09:40:27

Yes not exclusively boys, but as this thread is about boys that is why I said 'boys' instead of children.

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