Ability tables again, sorry, long post...

[houseofboys]

My yr 2 DS is very bothered by the table rankings and the fact he is on bottom. He worked it out about Christmas and since then has been desperate to move up. When I've asked his teacher why he's on that table she says its because he doesn't show what he can do which I guess is code for doesn't try that hard and struggles with some things, probably maths. But she denied there was a problem anywhere and expects him to get 2bs for most things and 3 for reading in his Sats. This was a couple of months ago - I asked her to speak to him to say what he needs to do - she did and since then has told me on a couple of occasions he was doing very well now and putting lots of efforts into work. Told me his Sats had gone particularly well. But he hasn't moved tables and now he is very demoralised and said yesterday 'there's nothing I can do to move tables, no point trying'.
Makes me wonder a)if he has done as well as she has said recently or b) whether the rest of the class are geniuses and that is why he is on the bottom when he is getting reasonable results. I don't want to go on about tables all the time in case she thinks I'm madly pushy. Only worried because it worries him.

[IndigoBell]

Are you sure he is on the bottom table? If he is getting a 3 for reading?

My DD is on the bottom table and she is getting a 1 for everything....

[houseofboys]

Yes - he is the best reader in his class apparently (finished Lime books a while ago). Thats what makes it a bit weird - though admittedly his writing isn't great and he doesn't enjoy maths, but according to teacher, he'll get 2bs in them....

[paddingtonbear1]

Id say the kids in his class must all be geniuses?! My dd (yr 2) is on the bottom table, but she's still level 1. I strongly suspect the others on the table with her are also mainly level 1's.

[IndigoBell]

He can't possibly be on the bottom table. Honestly.

[ktee1]

Is he actually on the bottom table, or does he think he is? Are the children seated by ability or in mixed groups? From his SATs results it sounds like he might be mistaken by this 'ranking'

[houseofboys]

Wonder if its because its hard to move someone down a table.. next table up is crowded according to my DS and room is pretty small and cramped. If he moved would only leave 3 on bottom table. If its the geniuses route, not sure what to tell him to reassure him!

[Feenie]

Tables are not bolted to the floor and may be moved (and I speak as someone with the smallest Y5 classroom you've ever seen!)

They are never an excuse for keeping groups static!

[houseofboys]

Seriously - I spoke to the teacher about it at last parents evening and she just made the comment about needing to show what he could do to get off that table. And another Mum who goes in to read with them has said to me quietly afterwards she can't understand why he's on that table. Always put it down to his writing not being great or his numeracy, but as I say he's meant to hit 2bs (though haven't had report yet)

[Feenie]

Sorry, other mother had no business telling you anything about what goes on in the classroom, and she is out of order.

It would certainly be unusual for a 2b child to be in the lowest group permanently, although not impossible. The rest of the class must be unusually able....

[houseofboys]

Will sats assessments be used to reset tables in class 3? Maybe she thinks its too late to change things round now. Of course, won't help if rest of class get all level 3s!

[jicky]

Is it that he can't get down to work without someone standing over him?

Maybe the bottom table has the TA to support the less able children and they also encourage him to actually start his work.

I'm a parent helper in our local school and some suprisingly able children don't do anything without a bit of nagging.

[houseofboys]

Jicky, yes thats quite possible...
Have to say I really wish they would sit on mixed ability tables, would save all this. Does it really make life a lot harder for the teacher, Feenie? I know the class would still know who the really clever ones were but they wouldn't be so aware of being ranked at age of 7.

[Cortina]

Up late and knackered so apologies if not too clear but here goes. You could be describing my DS. He is in year one but a level 2C for reading (last term) perhaps higher now and on the bottom table. Our 'groups' have been static pretty much all year (perhaps 3 movements maximum all year).

Our teacher talks about those who are average, those who are bright etc and it seems the children are living up to expectations. I heard last week that the top table now go into year 2 for various things, including reading. They thus pull further and further away from the others, the potential positive outliers of the future are being created.

Thing is DS, whilst no genius, would also be pulling much further ahead in reading etc if he had such seemingly dedicated extra attention.

I think a lot of the misunderstanding and frustration would be solved by more transparency in the classroom. It seems different teachers have different policies about 'ability groupings' and yes, some seem to thing that fairly static tables are a good idea. There's no differentiation, for us in year 1, between ability at maths or english, children are generally 'fast' or 'slow' or somewhere inbetween and we can't change that. Our teacher also comes under huge pressure from parents who don't want their children moved down from the 'top' tables. I don't blame them. This said there is the odd child that has made a huge leap forward and is moved, but this is extremely rare, and happens when the change is so enormous the teacher has to move the child.

OP - are your ability groupings always of a equal number like ours?

Many parents don't worry about it at all in our classroom but I personally believe it can be very damaging and mean that children will not believe in themselves even much later on in the school system. Teachers, does this system make things easier? Why do some primary teachers seem to favour it? In our school it seems to be left up to individual teachers to have their own 'system' in this respect.

[Galena]

This is why, as a teacher, I used to sit my Y3s on mixed ability tables. I tried to sit them next to someone of a similar ability, but there would be a range of pairs on each table. Not least because if you put all the frustrated lower attainers together you often have all the behavioural issues together, whereas if you split them up the class tends to be calmer.

[houseofboys]

Our groups aren't equal - its a small class. There are 3 on top table, five on the bottom, and around 9 on the middle table. Obviously I don't mind him being on the bottom table if he needs the extra help and I'd be glad he's getting it. Its just he's frustrated. I know the other children on the bottom table are on purple level reading so he's a long way ahead. Have asked teacher, but as I've said we just get the 'he has to prove himself' response. When I've said has he a problem with maths, she says no. Wish we had Galena's model that's all, seems far more forward thinking and equitable.

[Feenie]

Depends entirely on what I am teaching - sometimes they are in ability groups, especially when I need to work with a group, but they change almost week to week. A child who is good at division may not find the work in, for example, co-ordinates so easy.

For a group/paired task we may use mixed ability or same ability pairs/groups, it very much depends on what we are doing.

But groups should never be static for furniture reasons, it's ridiculous and irresponsible.

[smee]

My son seems to move table a lot. Also they're often paired up with a partner for certain tasks. Sometimes, I can tell he's been working with someone of the same ability so they'll push one another, other times it sounds like he's put with someone who might be a lot stronger or weaker than him at something, so they can help one another. All seems very fluid.

[rabbitstew]

Wow, your ds's school must be very unsubtle about its "rankings." I've never even thought about what my son's being in a particular group actually means, he clearly hasn't either and the groups do seem to be quite fluid, anyway (and no obviously large groups versus small ones - generally 4 or 5 children in each group). Maybe your ds's smaller class size makes everything a bit obvious. I do think your ds's teacher has a responsibility, here, given that her system is so incredibly unsubtle, to help your ds feel that putting effort in is worthwhile and that the table he is sitting on is not for stupid children!!!... Is his real problem that he prefers the children on the other tables and wants to be with his friends, or does he really feel judged to be lacking in ability to be sitting at the "bottom" table????? Frankly, if a 7-year old feels there's no point making an effort at school because he'll always be left at the bottom of the pile, then there's something wrong with the system (and the teacher for not dealing with it effectively - primary school should be a place where self esteem and enthusiasm for learning are built up, not knocked down).

[haggisaggis]

I dont really understand the ability table thing - my dd (severely dyslexic) is in a mixed ability mixed age (ages 5 - 9) class of 16 kids. They sit in mixed age groups. For some things - ie topic work, art etc - they will work in these groups. For things like maths, reading etc they will split into their ability groups - and the TA will work with whatever group or child requires it.