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Class arrangements in primary school possibly precipitating move - how would you handle this?

18 replies

mysteryfairy · 20/06/2010 20:17

My DD attends a lovely but vastly oversubscribed village primary school. She is in Y4 and in a class of 29.

The school has two mixed yr 5/6 classes - one has the older half of year 6 plus the older half of year 5, the other the younger half of each respective class. This gives respective numbers for those classes of 34 and 33. Not surprisingly, in my view, many yr 5/6 parents were unhappy when this arrangement was announced last summer.

We have had a letter from the school stating that appeals for the school are not being heard until the second week in July and class arrangements for next year cannot be finalised until after the outcome of the appeals is known. In previous years there have been successful appeals (I think there were 7 or 8 when DD entered reception) as the appeals are not ICS appeals - bizarrely the PAN is 34.

I would be concerned if my DD ended up in a mixed age class with 34 or even more children in it. She is exactly half way down the register so I don't know if she would end up in the older or younger cohort and am not even sure which would be preferable - she would also be vulnerable to changing cohorts and thus all her peer group if they continue with this arrangement over the next 2 years.

My DS1 attends an independent school which is part of a foundation with junior and senior boys and girls schools. One solution would be to remove DD from the school and send her to the girls junior school if they could possibly take her at such short notice. DS1 is a bit of an academic star and so I suspect the foundation schools would consequently look favourably on our family (although in reality DD is less talented). We haven't applied for a place for DD previously as she loves her current school so much - but do hope she will go to the senior school.

DS1 finishes for the summer before the class arrangements will be announced. The letter home about class arrangements was quite defensive and referred to bullying behaviour of parents last year. This leaves me feeling totally unsure how or whether I can approach this with the school. DD isn't keen to move at this stage and tbh we would prefer not to pay fees for junior school if we can avoid it but if we wait and find we are totally dismayed by the class arrangements we are going to be trying to negotiate with the possible alternative after they have shut for the summer.

So I guess the questions are how dire would you say the potential class arrangement is and would you approach this with the school and how?

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lou031205 · 20/06/2010 20:21

What would be your alternative suggestion that the school use?

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mysteryfairy · 20/06/2010 20:29

I don't enough about the numbers in every year to be able to make an alternative suggestion of how to accommodate all children whilst keeping infant class sizes at 30 or below.

I guess the school must have some possible plans based on best case scenario (only admitting 34 into reception) and worst case scenario (all appeals are successful).

In terms of approaching the school I would like to know what the worst case scenario would be, not to complain or try and present any other options, but so that I could make alternative arrangements if I felt it would be an arrangement I didn't personally want for my DD.

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PixieOnaLeaf · 20/06/2010 20:29

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admission · 20/06/2010 20:41

This is a head teacher who does not want to get involved! Bullying behaviour of parents, makes it sound like they are real wimp! It is very simple head makes decision and then says thats it, not interested in any discussion I have made my decision. I think that is called leadership and management.

The appeals for reception only affect reception and the infants. A PAN of 34 is a bizarre figure as it simply means that you either have a large class with two teachers to meet the ICS Regs or as is happening the school has to have mixed age classes. A PAN of 34 gives 96 pupils across R/1/2 and as such this has to be a minimum of 4 classes and therefore there will, as a popular school, potentially have 24 extra pupils across the 3 years groups to give 4 classes of 30. This is the minimum number of classes there can be. The appeals should be held on the basis of classes being set up to take a maximum of 30 and the school can say what they intend to do for the split. This would then minimise the number that can be admitted by ensuring the 3 years groups only add up to a maximum of 120. Appeal panels are specifically told they cannot admit on the basis of wanting to change the class structure, they have to accept the class structure as proposed by the school.

The junior years they already know the numbers and can sort out now. I have to say last years split of 5/6 was bizarre also. Why did they not just have a class of yr6 and a class of yr5?

Having said all that a class of 34 is not by any stretch of the imagination unknown in many schools and a good teacher will still get the best out of pupils.

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mysteryfairy · 20/06/2010 20:43

The reason for the split classes is that year five is larger than year six, but if they split by age chronologically there would be about four y5 children in the yr 6 class and that was apparently considered undesirable.

However DD's year is about 40-42 (the youngest handful are in a mixed class with the year below) and the now y5 class must be about the same. I really can't work out how they will do it next year (and I am sure the head and governors must be having a nightmare trying to work it out), but a parent governor did suggest to me it was likely to involve a similar split arrangement.

It is so difficult. If the arrangements are acceptable I would like to support DD who would really like to remain at the current school. It would make life much easier in terms of childcare etc and she still seems very little to do the 20 mile trip by school coach that the move would entail. I don't want to annoy the girls school by unnecessarily asking for a place I turn out not to need right at the end of term as I do want DD to go there in the future. I don't want to upset the current head or be labelled a bullying parent. I am just at a loss how to handle this!

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mysteryfairy · 20/06/2010 20:52

I have heard (from the same parent governor) that the school wanted the PAN set at 30 but was forced by the LEA to set it to 34.

I should probably come clean it is a first chool and only goes up to yr5. DD is actually in yr3 and the mixed classes I described are in yr 4/5. I was trying to be a bit anonymous but realise this confuses the numbers.

Although the ICS appeals only apply to KS1 the numbers admitted have a knock on effect on the other years as the school is limited by the number of classrooms to how many classes they can actually have. The PAN is 34 but the school has typically admitted a number of children on appeal each year. When DD was admitted the school supported the appeals by saying they could accommodate more children in KS1 as some cohorts in KS2 were very small. The school no longer wants to admit more children but because of the existing numbers situation appeals are not ICS and are still succeeding.

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belledechocolatefluffybunny · 20/06/2010 20:58

I think the head is out of order labelling parents as 'bulling', you have every right to be concerned and ask questions about your child's education.
If you move her now then she'll be able to make friends who she will move to the secondary school with.

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PixieOnaLeaf · 20/06/2010 20:59

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mysteryfairy · 20/06/2010 21:08

You are telling me what my instincts are also saying here.

DD has had four wonderful years at the school and they have been in marked contrast to the DSs experiences in another local school which resulted in them moving to a Prep during KS2 (after I had vowed my children would be educated in the state system).

However DD, whilst on the gifted and talented register, is not super bright and I don't think I can risk two years of second rate education blunting her enthusiasm for learning or hurting her chances of getting into a competitive entry school later.

I think class of 34 might be just about ok but class of 34 which spans September of one year to August of the following school year is likely to be too big a spread.

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PixieOnaLeaf · 20/06/2010 21:10

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belledechocolatefluffybunny · 20/06/2010 21:10

That's such a large class. Are there teaching assistants aswell?

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mysteryfairy · 20/06/2010 21:16

There are teaching assistants for a few hours a week.

I know DD would be fine in terms of friendship groups at the new school even if she was initially upset about the move. Both DSs moved out of normal admissions i.e. at 8+ and 9+ rather then 7+. Ironically DS2 then elected to go to a state grammar school at 11+ so currently have them across three schools. DS1 is in yr9 and not giving the impression that he would be particularly caring to DD on the school coach.

We luckily can afford the fees but not in a not noticing they're gone kind of way - might have to rethink a couple of things if we start paying this September!

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belledechocolatefluffybunny · 20/06/2010 21:25

If you are planning on sending her there anyway in year 7 and can afford it (with some jiggling) now then I'd move her in September. The head of the current school doesn't give off the impression that a head should (scary for both children and parents!) It's your call though/, she'd benefit from what they can offer and will make friends now that she will move up with rather then having to move away from friends she is very close to, 2 years can make strong bonds.

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SE13Mummy · 20/06/2010 22:41

Is this also worrying your DD? Is there a school council?

I think you, and possibly other parents who are concerned, need to arrange to speak to the Head and seek reassurance as to how the class split will be dealt with - will it involve asking the children to nominate three friends and an undertaking to put each child with at least one of their nominated friends or will it simply be done on age?

From my experience as a teacher who has been involved in mixing classes a great deal of care is taken to ensure that the resulting classes are balanced socially, academically and in terms of gender. We've also tried to ensure children speaking the same home language (if not fluent in English) are together.

Schools rarely mix classes just to annoy parents and upset children! Approach the Head and ask about the process - if s/he won't engage then write to the Governors and request that a more transparent approach is taken. Meanwhile you can enquire about the possibility of a place at your DS's school for your DD - be open with them about the situation, I'm sure it will be something they've encountered before!

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SE13Mummy · 20/06/2010 22:42

My question about school council was because it's an issue that they could discuss and also come up with some fair ways for mixing classes...

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admission · 20/06/2010 23:51

To be honest having seen your posts I have little sympathy for the school. They got themselves into the situation by taking extra pupils without thinking through the consequences in future years. Everything I said before still applies, I still believe that they must know what they have to do in years 3/4/5. They simply don't want to announce it.

I think it is inevitable that your daughter will be in a mixed age class given the circumstances and that it will be quite a big class. My instinct is that you have already made your mind up and that you should move your daughter.

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mysteryfairy · 21/06/2010 17:28

Thanks for your comments last night.

The school policy is to split purely on age and no other factors are considered.

I mentioned to DD the possibility of moving if her new class ended up being very big and she said with complete assurance that she knew I would never do that.

We have been down the road of looking round the independent school with her for 7+ entry and she was so adamant then that she didn't want to move that we were persuaded to leave her where she was.

I am fed up with the circumstances as in many ways it is an excellent school.

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SE13Mummy · 21/06/2010 20:32

School policies can be challenged....

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