School Appeal - Lawyer Recommendation - Hounslow W4 area

[Taguntumi]

Hello

Can anyone recommend a road tested, preferably local, lawyer who can help with our primary school appeal. Locale is Chiswick (W4) and local authority are Hounslow.

Thanks

[DastardlyandSmugly]

You might get some good help on here if you want some advice on framing your appeal. There are some people around with fantastic advice.

[prh47bridge]

I posted a reply on your other thread in Education. Briefly, my recommendation would be not to get a lawyer. They rarely help and can actually reduce your chances of winning your appeal. Unless you really don't feel up to it I would strongly recommend representing yourself. That's what most parents do. If you tell us about your case, we will give you good advice. A number of us have a lot of knowledge about admissions appeals.

[panelmember]

Agreed - unless you go to an education specialist (who may well not be local) you might end up paying a lot for some not very good advice. Lawyers often antagonise the panel by being too confrontational and by not actually putting the client's case very well.

What is your situation?

[sunnydelight]

I think a lawyer for a "straightforward" primary school appeal is a sledgehammer to a nut personally and I agree with panelmember that it's more likely to antagonise the panel than anything else. They will possibly think that if you can afford a lawyer you can afford private school fees!

[Taguntumi]

Hi

Thanks for all the replies. The lawyer was my other halfs idea, and we do want to do the best we can for our daughter - the normal dilema.

The situation is as follows.

We didn't get allocated any of our three choices but were instead given a place in an overflow class in a not well regarded school in the same town but some way away from our home. Inconvenient for us and more importantly away from our daughters friends.

As has been discussed on here, and in the book I bought primary appeals are difficult due to the class size so our only realistic basis for appeal appears to be distance.

We live on a (modest) private estate with one road entrance and one footpath.

Admission criteria suggest that they only use adopted highways and do not use footpaths with two exceptions for specific footpaths (more later).

Our line, I think will be that they are being unreasonable not using footpaths and inconsistent on stating they only use adopted roads and then using our private road.

We believe they should either start the measuring at the start of our estate (similar to a flat) or they should use the footpath at the back of the estate which is nearer our house and the one we are more likely to use.

In support of our suggestion that they use the footpath we were going to quote their walk to school policy at them because all the routes they have calculated favour roads.

The admissions staff have said they have done nothing wrong that they are allowed to use private roads but not footpaths. This is not consistent as they do allow a couple of specific footpaths in the admissions criteria and must use a footway across the railway at one school or it would exclude children who live a stones throw away (we have a footway on one of our routes).

Things have developed overnight as through Google we have found the minutes of an internal council admissions meeting from 2007 where they state:

• Footpaths are the most vexed single items for admissions.
• Rule was to use footpaths on the highways register. Appeared simple but was opaque and incomprehensible outside highways.
• Contstruction of a definition of what was included proved very difficult.
• No reason for excluding a specific path (which I won't mention) and would make specific allowance for that path (see above).
• It was difficult to identify all valid routes, so the authority would consider each on a case by case basis if brought to their attention.

Despite this comment in 2007, the admissions staff have suggested they have no reason to include our path and haven't considered it.

Getting the distance recalculated using footpaths would put us closer to each school, and likely get us into one (not our first choice) as we believe children living further away have been admitted.

Thoughts? Does it appear a valid basis for appeal?

[prh47bridge]

In simple terms your argument is that the LA has acted unreasonably in not using the footpath at the back of your estate when measuring the distance from your house to the school and that, had they done so, the distance would have been short enough to mean your daughter would have been admitted.

I don't think you will get anywhere with arguing that they should start measuring from the edge of your estate.

I think I've identified the council involved from the information you've posted. If I'm right, their admission criteria say that distances are measured using public roads and footpaths adopted and recorded by the council highways team. Further on in the same paragraph, after going on about various related subjects such as the treatment of blocks of flats, they say that routes using common land, open spaces, public parks, subways or footpaths not adopted by the highways team are not used, but exceptions are made for a specific footpath across common land and another pedestrian footpath.

If I understand you correctly, the road in your estate is a private road, not a public road. That means their measurement does not comply with their own admission criteria. Indeed, since neither the road nor the footpath meet with their criteria, there is actually no valid route from your house to the school under the admission criteria.

If that is correct, I would argue that the admission criteria are unreasonable since houses on your estate do not have a valid route to any school. I would also argue that, when faced with a choice of invalid routes, it is unreasonable for the council to choose the longer route.

The comment from the admission staff that they are allowed to use private roads is contrary to the admission criteria. The admission criteria say public roads and adopted footpaths so that is what they must use. They can't just make it up as they go along.

I'm not sure how an appeal panel would view this but it is certainly worth a try.

[Taguntumi]

prh47bridge

The council is Hounslow. And yes that is our argument.

I agree suggesting that they start from the edge of the estate would be a long shot but my thinking was that it would cut the distance and if it didn't work I also had the fallback of suggesting they use the path.

We have today received a letter from the council acknowledging our appeal but scheduling it for when we are on holiday. On ringing to ask for another date I noticed the appeal was registered against one school despite us appealing against the whole assessment and all schools. Is this normal?

When I pointed this out to the clerk to the panel she indicated there would be an separate appeal for each school but then appeared to backtrack when I said I couldn't be expected to attend each one. Is this normal?

Thanks for the help, I really appreciate it.

[Taguntumi]

prh47bridge

Sorry, whilst I remember, apologies about the other thread. I said there was one reply but I couldn't see it and then it was pointed out to me I would be better posting under the primary topic.

So I think I hid the other thread.

[admission]

I am afraid that the council are perfectly within their rights to schedule the appeal hearing for date of their convenience, as long as it complies with the requirement for it to be within 40 school days of the appeal being lodged. You can certainly ask for another date and the LA would normally do this unless the appeal is a grouped appeal and there are more than you appealing, which I suspect is the case.

Each appeal is for a separate school because the panel has to judge the relative cases of the school against the appealants case. It would not be possible to do that if it was all schools being considered. I would certainly check in writing with the Council that you are on the waiting list and as an appealant for all three schools as there does seem to be a bit of potential for confusion on this.

Hounslow's admission criteria obviously has a flaw in it by referring to only using public roads and as such no appeal panel should accept that they have applied the admission criteria correctly, as they clearly cannot measure private roads by their criteria. Having said that the Council do have to apply some logic to what is an impossible situation for them, they have to measure from the house to the school, so it simply becomes a question of which route to apply for the panel.

I don't believe that any panel is going to accept using a footpath if the council's usual rules do not use them, nor will they accept only measuring from the public road starting. It is not unreasonable to have an admission criteria that only works on the basis of nearest distance by road. So to me the logical thing to do would be to use the private road as the means of measuring the distance, which is what the council have done.

my reading of the situation would then be that the admission arrangements have not been probably implemented (using the private road) but that as the distance measured is actually the correct one you would not have got a place anyway and you will therefore not win the appeal.

You do however have an interesting set of minutes from 2007 and I wonder whether you can argue that the council are being unreasonable that they have seemingly failed to act upon the issues identified then. The problem is that you still come back to the basic problem that measuring the distance by the shortest road distance is not going to get you a place in the schools.

Sorry that I am being negative about your ideas but that is what I would do sitting on this panel.

[prh47bridge]

I was going to say that I think a lot hinges on the panel you get but I see Admission has got there first. It isn't a clear win by any means. It all depends what the panel makes of the flawed criteria. Like I say, it is worth a try. Even if the panel don't go for your argument, there is always the possibility that the hearing will turn up something else.

[Panelmember]

I think Admission has pinpointed the real issue here. Yes, the LEA's criteria are badly drafted because they overlook the fact that there are some private roads in the locality which (obviously and logically) must be taken into account when measuring routes. But even if you were to succeed in having the criteria instantly struck out and rewritten to refer to private roads, the effect would be that they would measure your route to school along your private road - which is what they have done already. It's not therefore very plausible to say that you have been disadvantaged by the criteria as they stand. Every route measurement starts at the child's home - front door or datum point, usually - and I'm afraid your argument that they should start the measurement at the edge of your estate would be dismissed immediately.

If you want to quote the minutes of the discussion in 2007, then I imagine that the LEA will argue that they have done exactly what they said there; ie because it is difficult to identify all valid routes, they have considered yours on an individual basis. Prh47bridge says, rightly, that the LEA can't make it up as they go along but, equally, where they come across situations which aren't catered for in the criteria they can (I think) adopt a pragmatic approach.

If you really want to lobby for the footpath from your estate to be used as a measurable route, you would have to demonstrate that it is equivalent (in terms of paving, lighting, accessibility or whatever) to the paths that are used. Even then, the panel will almost certainly take the view that they have to apply and interpret the criteria as they exist now and at the time the applications were considered. If the criteria are going to be rewritten that's a longer term issue for the LEA and the panel will almost certainly say that it can't decide what the new criteria should be or apply them to you when other criteria have been applied to every other applicant.

The difficulty of dealing with estates, where people have to walk long distances before they even get to the road, was one of the reasons some LEAs moved to measuring distance to school by a straight line.

[rohana]

can anu one help me for my son school appeal actually thae situation is that m son got place in outstanding primary school but because of family presseure i just change my son school dut before i didn't know that that school where my son was in nursery is outstanding school i didn't know about OFSTED report after see ofsted report now i am really depresssed i dont know what to do?my son is upset as well that all situation make me more deppresed i dont know what to do?

[Panelmember]

Rohana - take a deep breath and tell us more clearly what your situation is.

I think what you're saying is that you got a place in an outstanding school, but you changed your mind and accepted a place in another school. Now that you've seen the Ofsted reports you want to go back to the original school. Is that right?

Are you on the waiting list for your preferred school? If not, get on it straight away. Waiting lists are held in the same order as the admissions criteria, so if you were high enough up the admissions criteria to get a place in the initial allocation that should mean that you are somewhere near the top of the waiting list.

You can appeal as well, but the problem here will be that, if this is an infant class size appeal, you will only get a place if you can show that there has been a mistake and the admissions criteria weren't properly applied. It will be very hard to convince a panel that that is what happened here, because under the admissions criteria you did get a place but you rejected it.

Apart from the Ofsted report (which is not really relevant for appeal purposes, as wanting to go to an outstanding school is not a reason to make or win an appeal) is there are particular reason why your son needs to go to your preferred school?

[admission]

Rohana,
I would not be totally convinced by the OFSTED report as the only way of judgeing a school. Firstly when was the outstanding grade given? The way that OFSTED carries out inspections changed in September 2009. There is a general belief that these changes have made it more difficult to get an outstanding grade since Septemebr 2009. So if the inspection was before September 2009 I would say this has less credence as an indicator of a really good school.

Secondly why did you chose the other school? If it was for the right reasons - you thought it would be the better school, after visiting the schools, then I would say that your reasons are still valid.

Thirdly schools can go from outstanding to special measures very quickly if they lose staff - especially the head - and poor appointments are made. So what is outstanding now may not be outstanding in 12 months time.

[rohana]

thankyou for ur advice my son is second on the waiting list actually other problem is that the other school where my son got place is church of england school i am muslim i am just worried that may be my son is confused about 2 differend religion.i change my son school because of family presssaure now i feel guilty because of this guilt i cant sleep at night sometime i feel that i become dappression patient.

[Taguntumi]

Thank you all for your replies. A lot to think about.

[rohana]

can u help me more if i put more points in my appeal that i dont want to send my son in faith school actually i come from pakistan i didnt know the difference between faith and community school before but now my friend told me the differnce i read school aim points then i realise how big mistake i did.i am really upset at the momment i consult with my doctor he gave me some tabelts to take when i feel anxious and depressed.please can anyone reply me

[BetsyBoop]

Rohana

Can you tell us how many pupils are admitted each year in the school you are appealing for? (This is called the "Published Admissions Number" or PAN) If it is 30,60,90 or multiples of (depending how they arrange classes) then it will be what is called an "infant class size" appeal - by law Reception, Y1 & Y2 classes can have no more than 30 pupils.

As Panelmember pointed out, if this is an infant class size appeal, you will only get a place if you can show that there has been a mistake and the admissions criteria weren't properly applied. It will be very hard to convince a panel that that is what happened here, because under the admissions criteria you did get a place but you rejected it.

It's always still worth appealling, you might get a sympathetic panel, but I wouldn't bank on it

Do you also realise that all community schools will also have "collective worship which is broadly Christian in nature" ? (You do have the right to withdraw your child from collective worship, but that can cause its own problems by singling them out as "different")

Your other options are

1. See if there are any other community schools locally with places still available
2. Stick with the CofE school
3. Home education

FWIW some non-Christian but religious families choose to send their children to a CofE school in perference to a Community school, as they can support the general faith-based ethos of the school & counter the "differences" in religious belief at home. My suggestion would be to speak to the head of the CofE school & express your concerns, I would bet they have probably had children from Muslim families at the school before & found a way to work together.

[asade]

My son has not been accepted for his school of choose. He is four. I have recently started to work and the recommended school by the authority is going to affect my work. Do you think I have any chance in appeal? Or what should I point out in the appeal. I will be as his mum for responsible to take him to the school. My circumstances changed after I have made the application for schools. Any comments will be helpful.

[prh47bridge]

I'm afraid an appeal on the basis that the allocated school will affect your work is unlikely to succeed. If it is an infant class size appeal you won't succeed on these grounds. You have to show that the LA has made a mistake.

Can you tell us some more about the school and why you want your son to go there?

[Panelmember]

Asade - How many children are being admitted to your preferred school? If it is 30, 60 or 90 that will mean that it is an infant class size appeal (mentioned earlier) and your chances of getting a place are small. You will need to show that an error was made, which prevented your son from getting a place.

If you appeal, you can also mention any other matters which you feel the LEA should have taken into account. How did your circumstances change? Did you, for example, move house as (depending on your LEA's admissions criteria and what they say about change of address) this might be relevant. Even so, LEAs have to allocate school places according to the needs of the child, not the parent. They cannot allocate a particular school because (say) it is close to the parent's workplace, unless the application meets the admissions criteria.

If you will have huge problems getting your child to the allocated school, the appeal panel may be generous in your favour, but you cannot take that for granted. You need to plan how you will get your son to his school, find another school which has a place for him (which will almost certainly be farther away) or join other waiting lists.

[asade]

Class size is 30, both schools are almost the same distance, but the one we want is most popular in the area. The one that recommended by LEA is least popular.

And I don't think that the school recommended will help my child education and his needs.

I also rejected the recommended school. Which leaves me in situation that if I go ahead with appeal and they not allowed the appeal my child will not have any school place for September. If this happens to be the case what should I do?

[prh47bridge]

You need to plan for that as it is the most likely outcome. Unless you can show the LA has made a mistake you are very unlikely to win your appeal.

The LA has fulfilled its responsibility by offering you a place which you have rejected. They are under no obligation to offer you an alternative place. The fact that you've turned down the offered place will not improve your chances at appeal.

You need to start looking around for schools with places available and putting your child on the waiting list for any schools you would consider acceptable. If you cannot find a school with a place your only options will be to home educate or go private.

[asade]

Hello, In the admission authority statement they did not mention that how many teachers being employed, and they did not mentioned that admission of the child require further accommodation or employing another teacher.

They just say that there will be a disadvantage to cause the majority of pupils who already attends that school.

Do I have any point to rise in the appeal panel regarding of whether the prejudice has been established or not.

[admission]

Asade,
If the school admission appeal is not an Infant Class Size Regs case then they do not need to say that admission of a further pupil would require either furtehr accomodation or employ another teacher. If it is an ordinary appeal the admission authority have to explain and give good reasons how having reached the admission number they cannot admit any more pupils.

I would not consider the statement that it will be a disadvantage to the majority of pupils an appropriate reason for not admitting, it has to have more detail than that.

I would also expect in any case to have information on the number of staff (teaching and non-teaching) who are involved in the classrooms.

You should therefore should say that you do not believe that they have proved prejudice because there is no facts about this other than vague statements.