Appeal help needed pls Admission/PRH/somebody....

[ghenghismaam]

Have just received documents from LEA with their case 'against DS being admitted to reception of X school' (don't like the language at all)
This is a reception place appeal, the school has 4 classes mixed. They are saying they cannot admit as although this will not take the class size over 30 this year, 2011 & 2012 come 2013 it wil take the junior class size over 31, which will predjudice those offered a place (makes it sound like my DS is diseased...) anyway can they a) contest a class size that isn't reception b) use a predictor when the population is changing all the time - I know of 6 children of the 108 that have left in the past 5 months alone. Also some of the children come from a nearby RAF base which is going to be closing in 2012.
I am feeling very emotional about this anyway, have just had a miscarriage too which is making it all ten times worse, but I want to go to the appeal calm, rational and armed with everything I can.

All thoughts welcome
Thanks

[BetsyBoop]

Don't panic - and please don't take it personally (difficult in your current state of mind I'm sure, so sorry for your loss)

They don't have to "prove" infant class size prejudice" to you (or not) - it's the panel they need to convince - and they will ask the difficult questions!

Are they saying it will be an ICS appeal? (it doesn't sound like it is from what you have said so far, did they say anything else?) If it is ICS do you think a mistake has been made in the application process?

Future years are taken into account (and they can't assume children will leave, even if that usually happens) BUT only the impact on future years with in KS1 - it doesn't matter about any impact from KS2 from this aspect. However they can argue that the KS2 classrooms are too small to accommodate more than 30 pupils, but this isn't an ICS issue, so the panel can take the view that one extra child is doable in the classroom space available (particularly if it has been done in past years)

If you give us a bit more info I'm sure we can help build your appeal case - what reasons are you giving for wanting the school?

[prh47bridge]

Don't take offence at the language they have used. You may not like it but it is pretty standard in appeals and is based on the rules - the LA have make a case to refuse admission to your son and to do so they have to show that admitting him will cause prejudice to the school.

Infant class size prejudice only applies to infants, i.e. Reception, Y1 and Y2. An argument that classes will be over 30 in Juniors (Y3-Y6) carries much less weight and means, if I understand you correctly, that this will be an ordinary appeal, not an infant class size appeal. They are allowed to raise issues about class sizes in Juniors and argue that this will cause problems for the school. There is no restriction on class sizes in Juniors. However, the panel won't want Junior classes to get too big. If it isn't an infant class size case you don't have to prove that the LA has made a mistake in order to win the appeal

The panel is not supposed to admit a child on the basis that other children will move away in future, thereby solving problems with numbers. It is therefore quite normal for the LA to present its case on the assumption that no children will leave, any vacancies in later years will be filled and Reception will be full every year.

Based on what you have posted there is nothing fundamentally wrong with the LA's case. They are entitled to make these arguments. However, if they are genuinely saying that admitting your son won't cause a problem this year, next year or the year after but will cause a problem when he gets to Juniors, that is quite a weak case.

At the appeal I would ask the LA's representative about the number of children that have left in the past year. It will help the panel to see that there is a fair amount of mobility at this school. I would also ask about the RAF base closing and the effect that this is expected to have on the school.

A few questions to help me understand the situation fully:

• What is the admission number? Is it 108?
• When you say "4 classes mixed", do you mean that they mix the years together? If so, which years are mixed?
• How many classes do they have in Juniors?
• Have they told you how many other people are appealing for a place at this school?

The LA should have provided details of the current class arrangement as part of their case for the appeal. That provides answers to most of these questions. Knowing exactly what this says will help as it would give a clear picture of the LA's case and might suggest some lines of attack.

[ghenghismaam]

Thanks both for responding so promptly.
I have calmed down a bit, and do understand they have to use the language they do, so am trying not to take it personally!
OK some facts:
The total school net capacity is 112. They have given me a breakdown of the classes
( structured as the 3 infant year groups recep, yr 1 yr2 are taught in 2 classes, four junior years yrs 3,4 ,5 6 are taught in the other 2 classes) as they see them provisionally for 2010 - 2011: class 1 24, class 2 24 class 3 31 class 4 28 - making a total of 107.
They state that to admit another child would not exceed the max limit, but there would be future predjudice to the efficient use of the schools resources as the junior classes in 2013 would then have 32 pupils in each. (looking at that again not sure how admitting 1 extra child now, can then result in overcrowding by 4 in 3 years time?)
They also state that whilst the school is prepared to countenance large class sizes, the LA consider it would prejudice those children offered a place.
Refused applicants including ourselves is 5, appeals 1 so I have to assume we are the only ones. I know that DS is 4th on the waiting list.
Finally, the general feel from their case is that they are 'reluctant' to admit over the PAN for the year - is this because they do not want to set precedent maybe?
What value is there in fact finding for myself ie pupil turnover in the past 3 years?
Also instances of where there have been >30 in a junior class - the standards cannot have been affected that much as they are the top performing school in the County....
Much appreciated

[prh47bridge]

To start with your question, it isn't a question of setting a precedent. The LA isn't allowed to admit over the PAN other than in limited circumstances. That's what appeals are for.

A net capacity of 112 would normally lead to a PAN of 16. I presume from the other information you've given that this is the PAN for this school. With 2 infant classes that would give 24 in each class, matching their provisional class arrangement. If they were admitting up to PAN every year there would be 32 in each Junior class (164 = 64 children in Juniors, therefore 32 in each class) and the school would be full to capacity.

The case they should be trying to make is that admitting your son would lead to the school being over capacity if the current years 3, 4, 5 and 6 fill up - there would then be 16 in each year plus your son (so 167 + 1 = 113). That isn't a problem whilst he is in Infants but if the school is still over capacity by the time he reaches Y3 they would need to have at least one class of 33 in Juniors.

They are not objecting to having over 30 in a Junior class. As the school's class arrangement and PAN assume Junior classes of 32, such a case would be unsustainable. They are objecting to a Junior class of 33 - at least, that's what they should be doing although it sounds like they may not have expressed themselves very well.

It is interesting that the LA say that the school is prepared to countenance large class sizes. That says to me that the school and the LA don't agree on this appeal. The school isn't allowed to support your appeal but it might be worth asking the Head Teacher for their views before the appeal. If the Head says that they would be quite happy with a class size of 33, I would ask the LA's representative at the appeal to elaborate on their statement that the school is prepared to countenance large class sizes. The idea is to make sure the panel know that the school think they can cope with classes of 33.

This is stronger case than I thought initially as the panel may not be keen on the possibility of a Junior class with 33 pupils. However, it is still winnable.

The LA will answer any reasonable questions you ask before the appeal, as will the school. You already know that 6 children have left in the last 5 months. I would ask the LA how many children have left the school in the current academic year and in 2008/09. I would then ask them the same questions in the appeal to show the panel that there is a reasonable amount of movement at the school. The question of the RAF base closing is also worth bringing up.

If you can convince the panel that admitting your son to the school won't cause any problems, they should admit him regardless of your case. However, you should still have a good case to present stating why this is the right school for him. I'm sure you already know this from other threads but concentrate on the needs he has which can be met by this school and how his education will suffer if he goes elsewhere. Do NOT compare this school's league table position with that of the allocated school, bring up Ofsted reports or similar. If you say anything about the allocated school, concentrate on factors that make it wrong specifically for your son. Factors that affect most or all of the pupils there won't help you.

I hope the above is reasonably clear. If not, let me know and I'll try to explain.

[ghenghismaam]

Thanks PRH - will digest info and report back later. Much appreciated again

[BetsyBoop]

I think PRH has it all covered already

just a question for PRH, if you don't mind - when you say "the panel may not be keen on the possibility of a Junior class with 33 pupils" - is there any "formal" basis for them refusing over a certain number? Reason I ask is one of our local schools has a PAN of 70, which ends up as 2 junior classes (ie 35) - last year 2 were admitted on appeal at the normal round (they weren't "mistakes" in the process either I don't think) & 4 more at mid-year appeals from people moving into the area, meaning reception now has 76 (there are 3 YR classes, so not an ICS issue - but that is heading to 38 in a class in juniors ) - the school didn't want to admit, not only is the year over full, but the school as a whole is over it's total number by 12 now I think - but the appeals panel admitted them all anyway... (There are spaces in every year at a not-so-popular school less than 1/4mile away, so it's not a lack of local places issue either) Thanks

[admission]

This is a case about if buts and maybes and is a remarkably weak case.

Under the current school class management the year 3/4 class will have 32 in it if each of the year groups are at 16 PAN, as will the corresponding year 5/6 class. That is a statement of fact, the school has to expect that many in full junior classes.

Although you don't say so the fact that the LA is saying that the classes will not be over 32 in 2010,2011 and 2012 says to me that none of those year groups is currently full.

If we are talking about the problem occuring in 2013 we are talking about the point where your child will enter year 3. This implies that the current reception, year 1 in september is also full, giving the 32 in the class. It assumes that the year groups do not change, which in 3 years and with your knowledge of pupils leaving and the closure of the RAF camp looks remarkably unlikely. There is also the reality that we are talking three years on and in that time anything could have happened.

The only question I would have if I was sitting on this panel would be what is the size of the two classrooms for the junior classes. As long as they were a reasonable size (over 50 sq metres) then I would have no hesitation in admitting one over PAN, two over PAN maybe, three I would by then be thinking 35 in a junior class is to much no matter how big the room. This is actually one of those cases where being an only appealant is in your favour.

Is it possible to establish the size of the classrooms? Is this on the LA's case? If they are large classrooms then it is in your interest to raise it saying that the room can easily accomodate one extra child and the school have said so. If the rooms are on the small size then stay away from mentioning this. Just attack the LA case on the fact that it is all about what might happen in the distant future and that the panel should be looking at the reality, a class of 24 which can easily take 30 pupils.

[admission]

Bettsyboop,
The panels, in my opinion, have only considered admitting on the infant numbers rather than looking at the potential number in the junior classes. As I have said to ghenghismam I would be happy to have 32, 33 or possibly 34 in a class but 35 and above is becoming too much.
I could maybe understand the 2 at the reception "block" appeals but the 4 "casual" appeals no way does that sound a sensible case to me, especially if there is another school with places 1/4 mile away.
A PAN of 70 is a horrible number to have to deal with anyway and it will always end up with largish junior classes assuming that you have something like 16 classrooms in total.7 of those will have to be infant classes as an absolute minimum, though if there are 3 reception classes there must be at least 8 infant classes at present.

[prh47bridge]

BetsyBoop - There is no formal basis for the panel to refuse over a certain number in Juniors. It is really up to the panel what they feel comfortable with. I know some panel members start to get uncomfortable when talking about 33 or more in a Junior class. Others are happy to go a bit further. It really depends on the panel you get.

I'm with Admission regarding your local school. I don't know all the evidence but the 4 mid-year successful appeals sounds like a mistake. The panel may have assumed that children will leave between now and Y3, of course, but my personal view is that they shouldn't really have admitted that many children on this basis.

[BetsyBoop]

ghenghi - sorry, I hijacked your thread a bit

Admission/PRH - thank you - you have confirmed that what I've been trying to say to a friend who is in the process of appealing for a place at this school is correct. She seems sure her DC will get a place because it's "not ICS" - there are 26 appellants and as there are only 23/24 in Sept 10 YR classes, she thinks the other 7/6 places in each class are up for grabs... I keep trying to tell her it could be ICS in Y1/Y2 as there are five classes & with 76 in current YR that means an absolute max of 4 successful appeals (unless more than 4 mistakes of course) for when current YR & sept 10 YR are Y1/Y2 respectively and in any case what happens at juniors, you shouldn't have classes approaching or over 40... Me thinks she is going to be disappointed...(I agree the successful appeals for current YR made no sense to me either)

[admission]

It is quite usual for reception classes to run with less than 30 in the classes but for there then to be 30 in year 1/2 classes, which is what is called future prejudice.

I would not want to second guess what is happening in your case betsyboop with a PAN of 70, but the classic situation is 3 reception classes of 20 which then become 2 clases of 30 for year 1. That is very definitely an infant class size case.