Infant School Appeal

[beth13]

Hi all,
I know there are several threads on this subject already, which I have read with interest.
Just a quick question or two and I wonder i anyone can help, please ?
My daughter has not been offered any of our three choices and has been offered a place at our catchment school, which is not great. However, I need to ascertain whether we actually have any grounds for appeal. Our second choice school has put 'n/a' under the 'infant class size refusal' part of the form, so I am guessing that she wasn't rejected because the class was full ? Does anyone know what this might mean ? Also, I want to find out where she is on waiting lists for the schools we applied for - do I ring the school or the LEA ?
Thank you for reading !
Beth x

[MerlinsBeard]

If you are not in catchment then class size doesn't matter.

Places are offered to all those in catchment first.

[Danthe4th]

She won't be on any waiting list unless you ask to be put on them and you do this through the lea after all the places have been allocated and accepted.

[prh47bridge]

I've no idea what Mumofmonsters means in her first sentence. Class size matters whether you are in catchment or not.

I've not come across a form saying "infant class size refusal" before but your daughter has definitely been rejected because the class is full, in other words they have admitted up to the admission number. By law the school must accept a child if there are still places. It probably has something to do with whether or not the appeal will be an infant class size case, but I've no idea what "n/a" means in that context. If the school has 30 in each infant class (Reception, Y1 and Y2) - or would have if all 3 years were full - then your appeal will be under ICS rules, which means you should only succeed if you can show that the LA has made a mistake. You can still appeal and you may get lucky, but you should be realistic about your chances of success.

You should try the LA if you want to find out where you are on the waiting list. They may refer you to the school if it is a faith school. Also remmember that a position on the waiting list is not fixed. If a child applies later who is ranked higher on the school's admission criteria, that child will go ahead of yours on the waiting list.

[beth13]

'If you have been offered a place at a school other than your first preference, your child will remain on the waiting list for any higher preference Essex school(s) until the end of the Autumn term 2010.'

but its through the LEA ?

[beth13]

Sorry Prh47bridge, I didn't see your post ! Thanks, that is very helpul. I don't know what the 'n/a' means. the other two schools have put 'yes' under the 'Infant class size refusal' column. we can see from that that she was rejected by these two for class size reasons, but the other school says n/a so its possible that there are still places ? or were when her application was viewed ? we are slightly out of catchment but if there is no hope in getting into schools other than catchment, what is the point in applying at all ?

[prh47bridge]

There won't be places as such. As I said, they HAVE to admit your child if there are places.

Let me try and explain with an example.

If a primary school has a capacity of, say, 175 that means that they can take 25 pupils in each year. They would therefore set an admission number of 25. If you are refused entry to this school, it is because the class is full - they have already admitted 25 children. However, the class is below the infant class size limit of 30 so any appeal would be an ordinary appeal.

On the other hand, if the capacity was 210 and the admission number was 30, the class would be up to the infant class size limit if you are refused entry. Any appeal would therefore be an infant class size appeal. In this case an appeal should only succeed if the admissions authority has made a mistake.

In both cases there are no places at the school. However, your chances of success at appeal are much better in the first case. The fact that there are no places doesn't stop your appeal from succeeding - far from it. Every successful appeal admits a child to a school that doesn't have any places. That's the way the system works.

On the catchment question, LAs have to allow you to apply to any school by law. There is always a chance of getting into a school when you are out of catchment - it depends how many in catchment children apply to that school.

[MerlinsBeard]

what i meant was that the OP may have been dismissed on the grounds of being out of catchment rather than the class being full

[admission]

Beth,
I am sure that PRH is correct, the one that put N/A believes it is not an infant class size case, the other two believe they are. However it is the LA as the admission authority which will decide whether it is an infant class case at the appeal. Even though the school has an admission number less than 30 it could still be an infant class size case if the school is combining year groups.

I would not rely on Essex LA putting you on the waiting list for the schools, I would formally ask to be put on all three waiting lists so that you are sure. Then make sure that you appeal.

As a holding position and a back stop I would accept your catchment school, because you must accept that there is a real possibility that you will not win any of the appeals, especially if they are infant class size cases.

[TrowelAndError]

Mumofmonsters - The OP's child would only have been turned down for being out of catchment if all places had already been filled by children in catchment (or out of catchment but living closer to the school). That is why children out of catchment do sometimes get a place. What couldn't/shouldn't happen is a child being turned away for any reason while there are still places available.

[Clary]

beth I agree with what you said in a way - what is the point of applying out of catchment at all? in that there is of course no guarantee of getting a place out of catchment.

All the talk of parental choice is confusing for parents IMO.

However, there certainly are schools that take children from out of catchment.

All the schools near me, some rated good/outstanding by Ofsted and most having good results and all beign full of middle-class families (if these things matter to you!) have, in at least some of the last 6-7 years, taken children from out of their catchment area to fill places.

All 3 of my DC for example have out of area children in their classes (I know because we brand them on the forehead on arrival ). Similarly at the neighbouring schools, AFAIK.

I realise this is no help for your current cituation, but just to make the picture a bit clearer.

[beth13]

OK, so having been on to the LA today, I am told that the 'n/a' means that she was rejected on criteria 'other than class size', so I asked 'such as being out of catchment', reply 'yes'. So it appears to me that they looked at her application, regarded it as 'out of catchment' and then rejected, whilst there were still places. surely this cannot be right ?
Working on the basis of what I have been told by the LA, she was rejected on the grounds of criteria other than class size. I was led to believe that she could only be rejected on the grounds of class size. If there were places when she was rejected, do I have rgounds or appeal ?

[BetsyBoop]

I pretty sure it will be as per the example prh47 said below

ie the PAN (published admissions number) will not be 30 (or multiples of) therefore it won't be an infant class size refusal, but that the class is full (to their PAN) and being out of catchment you were too far away to get a place.

I very much doubt that they would have admitted less than their PAN & then not admitted you as you are out of catchment, as they MUST admit any children that apply up to their PAN - even if you lived a 100 miles away they would have to admit you (athough the school run would be interesting )

The good news is that if their PAN is not 30 (or multiples of) then it's an "ordinary predjudice" appeal (you have to show predjuidice to your DD not being admitted is greater than predjudice to school in admitting her) rather than an "infant class size" appeal (where basically you would only stand a chance if a mistake had been made in applying the criteria, or the admissions authority had acted "unreasonably") So you stand a better chance of being successful at an appeal (no guarantees of course)

[mrz]

I'm sure it isn't the case but could the N/A be because the school doesn't have an infant department?

[prh47bridge]

No, they wouldn't have rejected your application while there were still places. That is against the law. But you are still confusing the admission number with class size. They are not the same thing. Infant class size is NOT the only grounds for refusing admission to a child. The admission number being met is always grounds for refusing admission.

As I tried to explain in my earlier message, "Infant class size" has a special meaning. It applies when the school has 30 children in each infant class as that is the maximum allowed by law (although there are some limited exceptions).

If the admission number is, say, 25 and there are 30 children applying for places, 5 of them will not get in. They will not have been rejected on class size grounds (as there are fewer than 30 children in each class) but there are no places - there were only 25 places and they have all been filled.

They will not automatically reject any applications because they are out of catchment. That is against the law.

What will have happened is that they looked at your application, found you were out of catchment and placed you in the appropriate category according to the admission criteria. They then found there were enough children who were higher priority than your child (according to the admission criteria) to fill the admission number. Your child was therefore not admitted.

However, as the school has fewer than 30 children in each infant class, your chances of success at appeal are much better.

[beth13]

lol mrz ! I may be from Essex but I am not that daft !!
BetsyBoop (and everyone else) this whole subject is rather confusing and everyone's comments have been very helpful, thanks.
The PAN is 58.
When we were rejected, I was pretty much sure that we had no grounds for appeal, although my partner was insistent that we must appeal. So I really wanted to check whether we do have grounds as I am afraid I will find it very hard to argue a point I do not believe myself (of course, he is very good at that, but that's another story !! lol). In a funny sort of way, my conversation with the LA this morning has clouded things further !! They don't make it easy do they ??!!

[mrz]

Beth we actually had it happen the parent had copied some information wrongly on the application and complained we hadn't offered a place when checked they'd applied for a school with a similar name but no infant dept. - red face

[beth13]

omg !!! double checks phew ! you had me worried or a minute then mrz (can't imagine having to try and explain that one to her father !!)

[mrz]

We had the reverse too where the person juggling the paperwork had two children with the same names (including a rather unusual middle name) allocated a place - assumed that it was duplicate application and ignored the second form...

[beth13]

oh no ! but I am assuming an easy appeal for whoever, as there was obviously an error.....

[BetsyBoop]

if the PAN is 58, then in theory (depending on what happens in future years in KS1, if there are any mixed year classes etc)they could admit two further pupils over their PAN before you his "infant class size" (and successful appeals are much more unlikely)

Of course the school will argue things like they only have class room space for 58 (presumably in 2 classes?) - but you can ask how many are in the current reception year, if this is >58 then it strengthens your case as the school can obviously squeeze another one (or two) in...

[BetsyBoop]

his hit

[beth13]

This has all really helped me for which I am very grateful. OH was all for going in feet first and appealing but hadn't really thought out how. I need to know exactly where I stand before I can appeal, as I say I am reluctant to get into an appeal situation if I don't really believe we have a case and it is just a case that we don't like what we have been allocated. this makes me feel much more confident. Thank you

[beth13]

MintHumbug, I know. OH wanted to go marching in saying 'SHE IS NOT GOING TO BLAH BLAH SCHOOL' and I have been diplomatically trying to persuade him that the LA will not be bullied into making an exception for us. But I can't dress it up if I am not convinced. I'm not a lawyer !
Thanks tho x

[prh47bridge]

If OH goes to the panel and says that you will lose the appeal!

With a PAN of 58 it will not be an infant class size appeal unless there have already been 2 successful appeals. The LA will argue that the school is full and cannot admit any more children. They will argue that there isn't enough space in the classrooms. You may get some stuff about crowding in the corridors and so on. As MintHumbug says, it is worth finding out if the current reception has more than 58 children (or, indeed, if Y1 or Y2 are in this situation). If they do, ask that question at the appeal as it will tell the panel that the school can cope with additional children. It is also worth finding out the capacity of the school and the total number of pupils it will have in September. If the school is below capacity, that will strengthen your argument. Make sure you know the answers to these questions before the appeal - I'm a great believer in only asking a question if you know the answer!

You have to show why this school is the right school for your child. You must not compare the quality of education at this school with the allocated school. Don't mention league tables, Ofsted reports or anything like that. Concentrate on facilities your preferred school has which the allocated school doesn't. Are there any after school clubs, for example. You need to show that the prejudice to your daughter from not going to this school is greater than the prejudice to the school from admitting her. If there are a lot of appeals, you also need to show why it should be your daughter that is admitted rather than one of the other children.

Good luck.