how to choose a primary school! are ofsted reports a good basis or not?

[CatIsSleepy]

First of all, dd1 is at the nursery of a great school. However, I am just not sure she's going to get a school place there (it's very popular of course, and there are 50 kids in the nursery but only 30 reception places) so am having to consider very carefully which school I put in second place on the form.

We live in an area that's classified as deprived with a high proprtion of kids with various difficulties so I guess all the schools are starting from a low base. None of the local schools are terrible though- seems like they all do a reasonable job and the kids are fairly happy there. Lots of the schools seem to get graded a 3 overall by ofsted.

Trouble is I don't really know anyone with kids at the other local schools so am not sure what to base my decision on. One of the schools is graded a 2 (same as the one she's at) but just looks a bit off-putting...a bit tatty, outdoor space a bit rubbish, and in the middle of a council estate.Ok maybe am sounding precious -it sounds good on paper but looks a bit off-putting. The other school am thinking of is graded 3 but looks nicer!
Am I being ridiculous to even worry what a school looks like???
Would looking around inside make any difference (can you even do that?)

sorry for rambling!

[throckenholt]

make appointments to visit them all and go by your gut feeling once you have visited.

Make sure you get to meet the head as well.

[EldonAve]

you need to go look round them in person
most will do tours

[theyoungvisiter]

absolutely looking round makes a difference - I wouldn't worry at all what the school looks like (except if there are obvious H&S concerns!) but I do think that there are other important factors that ofsted can't take into account, like how well the school fits with your particular ethos, and if your child will be a good fit.

Agree 100% with throckenholt - go for a visit, talk to the teachers and the head teacher, have a look at the pupils, do they seem happy and confident adn thriving?

[CatIsSleepy]

right! have booked a visit with the grottier looking school
(and have discovered they do Jamie Oliver school meals ). will meet the head and have a good look around.

thanks for that kick up the bum!

[juliemacc]

take your child with you and ask her later which one she liked the best

[thegrammerpolicesic]

Juliemacc surely she's a bit young though - I mean most three year olds will be more concerned with whether there's a climbing frame in the playground or not. Arguably a tiny factor to take into account as you want them to be happy and excited to go to school but there are bigger issues than the climbing frame/ sand pit whatever catches their eye.

[theyoungvisiter]

I agree with thegrammerpolice.

If the school you prefer is NOT the one that she chooses because you've seen something that caused you real concern but she failed to notice, what kind of message does that send out if you override her choice?

[idly wonders if I should add "sic" to my name to pre-empt the helpful pedants?]

[AtheneNoctua]

I believe strongly in the league tables not so much because they tell me about the school in itself but because they tell me something about my childrens peers at that school. The best teacher in the world will struggle to teach your child if she has to step back to accommodate other children who need more help than yours might.

[theyoungvisiter]

slight athene, what if your child needs help? It's quite hard to tell at 3 whether your child is going to be a maths whizz or a total dud.

I'm not sure it's so great for them to be the thickest child in a school with rubbish teachers, than the cleverest child in a school with great teachers.

More important to look at the school as a whole, I'd say.

[AtheneNoctua]

My point was not that my children are the smartest around. It was that the child's peers will have a big impact on the quality of education. So, it isn't just about what the school itself offers. And league tables give a good indication of this.

One of the best markers of a school is probably to choose one whose pupils largely come from well educated families (if "well educated" is important to you).

[theyoungvisiter]

I agree that I wouldn't want my child in a class where there are a lot of struggling, disruptive children.

But I disagree that a primary school with a lot of naturally very able pupils will automatically provide a better education.

The schools may be concentrating on pushing the cleverest children and ignoring the struggling ones, which is fine if your child is clever, but not so fine if they happen to be one of the strugglers.

I went to a very academic secondary school. I was fine - but my best friend was totally left to flounder in maths. The school could not have been less interested and basically wrote her off, along with a lot of other students. I don't think they were providing a quality education for a significant number of kids, but they looked ok on paper.

[CatIsSleepy]

ah well she won't be going with me anyway-she'll be at nursery during the visit...so she'll have no say in the matter!

athene- well as I said in the OP the local schools are all much of a muchness in terms of their intake ie relatively high proportion of kids from deprived backgrounds etc and they seem to do well in that they bring them up to a decent level by the time they leave which I think is a pretty good achievement. The school she's at the nursery of probably has the higher proportion of posher/middle class parents but still has higher than average on free school meals etc.

Hard to know whether dd1 will be particularly bright or academic (well of course I consider her bright ). I will be asking about extra help available for more or less able pupils though...

[CatIsSleepy]

tbh i think round here it is the ones that are struggling that get more attention.
which is fine, as long as the more able ones are not neglected as a result...

[AtheneNoctua]

"But I disagree that a primary school with a lot of naturally very able pupils will automatically provide a better education. "

I don't think I said that.

And I didn't mean that league tables were the only thing I would look at when choosing a primary school. But, I would use them -- not to guage the quality of the school but rather to assess who is likely to be in the class with my child.

Of course there are lots of things to look at. For me, it was important to have a CoE Faith school.

There is actually one thing I did not look at but wish I had, and that is how many of the other children have two full time working parents (or one if it is a single parent family). But, as I say, I din't think of it... too late now.

[theyoungvisiter]

There's always teh "value-added" element of the league tables, which looks at how well the school did with their particular set of pupils.

"There is actually one thing I did not look at but wish I had, and that is how many of the other children have two full time working parents (or one if it is a single parent family)."

Curious to know - how would you know this? This isn't information the school gathers is it? Would you canvas at the school gate?!

[AtheneNoctua]

erm... good point. I don't know how I would do that bit of research. I guess I would have asked around at church (most of the church children go to the school).

But, all in all, I like the school. So I don't really have any regrets.

[CatIsSleepy]

why would you want to know if the children had two working parents?

[IdrisTheDragon]

How would you know or need to know people's working patterns? I work less then I used to but actually earn about the same or more due to reduced childcare costs. I really don't see how that impacts on a decision you might make.

[scarletlilybug]

Look at the actual Ofsted commenst, rather than the grades. Then you will get a better idea as to where its strengths and weaknesses lie.

Look around the school and ask questions about the things that are important to you - e.g. homework, destination of leavers, pupil turnover (a good indicator of how happy parents arctaully are with the school), extra-curricular activities, whatever concerns you most.

Look at the wall displays - I think these are a pointer to the educational ethos of the school. personally, I am very put off when I see pupils work displayed with obvious spelling mistakes and so on, because (to me) that says that standards and expectations are low. But other people don't like seeing work that is too "perfect", arguing that this may be a hindrance to creativity. You probably know where you stand on this kind of thing - see which schools seem to fit in best with your preferences.

[Botbot]

I'm in SE London too - also in an area classed as 'deprived' - and am going through the same process (whereabouts are you by the way, if you want to say? We could pool information!)

I see Ofsted reports as a backup to my own instincts on viewing the school. I've seen about 7 so far and of the four I'll be putting on my form, two have grade 2 Ofsteds and two have grade 3. But I felt comfortable in all of them. Funnily enough, the one I'm putting as backup (ie it's well within catchment area) has a grade 2, whereas my first choice has grade 3 (but, reading between the lines of the Ofsted, is improving fast).

[CatIsSleepy]

botbot-I live in Plumstead

[Botbot]

Oh, wrong borough. I'm in Lewisham. Boo.

[AtheneNoctua]

The reason I would check to see how many working parents there are is because it effects the medium of communication at the school. As a full time working parent and I am by far in the minority. The teachers have e-mail accounts but some of them refuse to use them. I send in letters... no reply. I am at my wits end with one of the teachers who, apart for her complete negligence to communication with me -- I actually think is a fantastic teacher. The problem (for me and sometimes I think only for me) is that the school expects anyone who has anything to say to show up in person at the school gate. This is an uphill battle for me and I am never going to win it. If there were more working parents with similar issue I am sure the school would consider an approach to communication that suited more working parents. But, since chatter at the gate works for the vast majority of the parents, I'm pretty much left out in the cold.

It's a pity. I really like this particular teach but I am bloody hacked off with her refusal to write me back on matters which are really quite important to DD's health and well being and attitude towards her work.

So, I guess the relevance here is that I suggest you consider the schools preferred medium of communication adn if will work for you.

[Botbot]

Athene, that's a very good point and something I hadn't considered.

And it's reminded me that one of my choices asked us to come and view the school at 2.00pm, and wouldn't give me an alternative time, so I had to take a whole day off work (I work FT too). Hmm, warning bells sounding - they probably assume all mothers are at home don't they?

[AtheneNoctua]

Send them an e-mail and see if you get one back.

When DD was in nursery the consultation times were put for everyone to choose a slot. I just happened to do the pick-up that day. I wrote my phone number in the slot and asked her to call me. She was not happy but I persuaded her. She called late. I missed the call. I tried to call her back immediately (within 2 minutes) and got no answer. So I missed the consultation and she sent home a written report and told my nanny we owed her 5p for the cost of the copy. I think she made herself unailable for my return call to make a point. However, it is the only time the school has refused to give me a consultation at a reasonable hour (say after 4:30pm). I was really pissed off and I do not like this teacher to this day. I remember when I asked her to call me, and she didn't want to she said something like "These are the appointment slots that all of the parents have to choose from and they have them problem" Knowing that I was one of two mums with a full time job, I laughed and said "No they don't"