Year 2 SATs. Is level 3 equivalent to year 3 or year 4?

[sandyballs]

I thought year 3, a friend has said today that it is year 4. I'm confused, although I am also aware that it's not hugely important at 7 years old.

[MorocconOil]

Year 4

[Feenie]

Depends what kind of level 3. 3c, about Year 3, 3b - average Year 4 child.

[IdrisTheDragon]

I think that level 3 for a Year 2 could be different from a level 3 for an older child.

[SoupDragon]

Level 3 is average for a 9 yo child

[Yurtgirl]

So what would a level 4 in Maths be then - I assumed average year 4, is that not right?

[SoupDragon]

[whatdayisit]

I didn't know they split into a/b/c etc.

Can't imagine it can be 2 years aheaad though, because the results from my DS1's school (very average school with high% of SN and high % free meals) shows almost a 3rd got 3 in most subjects.

[Feenie]

Level 4c - average Year 5 child, level 4b -average Y6 child

[TheFallenMadonna]

I think Idris is right in practice if not in theory. Certainly I spend quite a lot of year7 explaining to parents why their children appear to have regressed in Science.

[Feenie]

The difference testwise, FallenMadonna, is that in Year 4 the test would be timed, whereas in Year 2 the test is not. However, levels in Year 2 are now based mostly on teacher assessment, therefore 3c/3b in y2 = 3c/3b in Key Stage 2.

[Yurtgirl]

Good grief - ds got level 4 in maths - he is in year 1 atm

[TheFallenMadonna]

Fair enough.

Still holds true for the leap from primary to secondary though I think.

[Feenie]

That can't be right, yurtgirl!

[MorocconOil]

I didn't know SATS on year 1 children.

[Ellbell]

Was just trying to remember this from last year... I have a feeling that, at KS1 (i.e. Year 2) if they do better than a 2a then they simply get a 3 (indicating that they are working above a good Year 2 level). I'm not sure that this is the same as the Level 3 that applies in KS2. Certainly, my friend who is a secondary school teacher says that a lot of children who come into secondary school with a Level 5 assessment from their primary school for maths are not working at all at what the secondary school would call a Level 5.

[Feenie]

In our authority (Leeds) we aren't allowed to give a level 3 unless they are a clear Level 3 (3b). If they are only just a level 3, ie 3c, we have to give them a 2a. Certainly helps to avoid overinflation of levels.

If they let us just teacher assess at Year 6 this would solve the level 5 problem in secondary schools - if we just teacher assessed them as a 5b when they were securely at level 5, not just scraping in in the test, there wouldn't be a problem.

[Yurtgirl]

Feenie - how do you know - have you taught my ds?

[sandyballs]

thanks for replies, very confusing isn't it. DD got all 3's except maths, where she got a 2A. I know she's reasonably bright but didn't think she was anywhere near a 9 year old/year 4.

$Yurtgirl, is that more of a school level than a SAT level?

[Feenie]

Children are assessed from the second they arrive in Reception to when they leave Year 6. Good teaching relies on constant assessment, so we know what to teach next and when, but not constant testing. Year 2 is much better now because it depends largely on teacher assessment, which is more accurate than a test 'snapshot'.

[Feenie]

No, but has he been taught Year 5 objectives? Am pretty sure he hasn't been! If he has, I stand corrected, but it would be more than unusual, even for an incredibly gifted child.

[Yurtgirl]

Absolutely no idea - we dont do SATs here thankgoodness

She said that in all her years of teaching (35?) she has never taught a year 1 child who has excelled to such a high level in Maths

I am not meaning to boast at all btw - I am genuinely concerned that given his eccentric nature and general unwillingness to do anything he doesnt want to do at school that he will get fed up and stop bothering - he has asked everymorning since Whitsun if he can stay at home

[Ellbell]

What I find odd, Feenie, is that the teachers (at least in my dds' schools - which are in a LA not a million miles from where you are!) spout these bloody levels all the time. I can see that for the teacher (as you describe it) assessment can be a useful tool. But for the parent (unless the parent is either also a teacher, or prepared to do a lot of independent research to find this stuff out), to go to a parents' evening and be told that Babybell-the-Elder is working at a Level 4b for reading, 4c for writing and 3a for maths (or whatever it was) is utterly meaningless. And I get invited to celebration assemblies too where, instead of being told 'X gets a badge for having written a lovely story' or 'Y did an ace drawing' we are told that Z has 'gone up three sub-levels for maths'(which sounds impressive, but again is fundamentally meaningless to those of us who are not teachers).

So I have no idea if my dd who is in Year 3 and apparently working at level 4b for reading has actually been assessed against Level 4 objectives. She can read well, and loves it, so frankly she's happy and I'm happy and the actual level doesn't matter to me. But I do wish that I didn't have a nagging doubt that these levels have replaced an ability actually to describe what children are doing. (Reports to come soon, so will see whether they tell me anything specific or are just a list of numbers!)

BTW, I have no problem with how my dds are being taught. My issue is really more of a communication one.

[Feenie]

Absolutely can see your point, Ellbell. Knowing your child is a 4b in reading would help me if I was her Y4 teacher next year, but is next to useless if, as a parent, you have no idea what 4b means! (Incidentally, it means several things, like she can refer to text to support opinions and predictions, infer and deduce moods, message, feelings and attitudes.She can identify implicit and explicit points of view, etc, etc, etc, blah, blah!
She is doing very, very well if she can meet this level in Y3, and yes, the teacher would have assessed her accurately against level 4 objectives.
I think we are so used to having to justify everything we do numerically that it's easily forgotten that not absolutely everyone knows what we are on about. We have sheets we share on Parents' Evening that show where a child is compared to an average child their age, but of course even this is not appropriate at times. Our parents do say they find it helpful, though. Even more helpful to most parents, I guess, is information regarding how they relate to others in their class, which subjects they enjoy and how happy they are generally. All very hard to fit into 10 minutes!

[robinpud]

Yurtgirl- I am guessing you must be in Wales so relieved from the stress of SATs at such an early age. Feenie is right, for a year 1 child to have been assessed at performing at L4 in Yr 1 they must have been following a highly individualised programme since entering school You must be very lucky to have such great provision.