Girls only allowed to do handstands and cartwheels on the field IF they wear shorts under their dress

(179 Posts)
CrackerOfNuts Mon 12-May-08 10:13:16

Is it me, or is that just barmy.

Both dd's have come home moaning as they like to try and do cartwheels and handstands on the field at lunch time. The dinnerladies have now said that unless they take in shorts to wear under their dresses, then they aren't allowed to do it because the boys will see their knickers.

From what Dd1 said, the majority of the boys are not even on the field, they are in the playground playing footie, so can't even see the girls letalone their knickers.

Cappuccino Mon 12-May-08 10:14:17

no not barmy I don't think

dd1 wears shorts under her skirt for her physio sessions

she is seven and it was her idea

Threadwworm Mon 12-May-08 10:15:13

That is ridiculous. Did the dinnerladies make that rule up themselves or is it offical policy?

At DS2's school the list of things they can't do for fear of sustaining minor injuries is depressingly long but I've not heard of any modesty-protecting garbage like that.

hatwoman Mon 12-May-08 10:15:42

shock totally ridiculous. I would question this with the teachers.

(when I was at primary school I used to show the boys my knickers....blush)

wordgirl Mon 12-May-08 10:15:43

I think it's barmy too. Fair enough if they want to wear shorts but to say they have to is ridiculous

Enid Mon 12-May-08 10:16:31

I would be furious

there is nothing wrong with knickers

they have bottoms and fanjos in them - wow big whup

what happens if the boys should see their knickers? do they start to foam at the mouth?

CrackerOfNuts Mon 12-May-08 10:17:20

Apparently the order came from the head.

I am not against anyone wearing shorts under their dress if they want to, but why should they have to ?

Dd1 and 2 are not up in the air long enough for anyone to see their knickers anyway really LOL.

hatwoman Mon 12-May-08 10:17:34

totally agree Enid - it's adults imposing sexualisation on perfectly normal children's behaviour

Cappuccino Mon 12-May-08 10:17:49

they are just trying to be careful that's all

it is a bit ott but their hearts are in the right place

Fennel Mon 12-May-08 10:18:02

sounds ridiculous to me. They shouldn't have a uniform of dresses if they don't consider it suitable for girls to play actively in.

Though my 4yo dd3 does tend to wear shorts under dresses anyway, her choice, and my 8yo dd1 would happily do handstands naked in the school field, she's not very inhibited.

CrackerOfNuts Mon 12-May-08 10:18:15

I think if some of the girls were that bothered about the boys seeing their knickers, then they'd not be flashing them in the first place would they.

Dd1 and 2 obviously have no self respect wink

Cappuccino Mon 12-May-08 10:18:17

oh if it came from the head then it is barking

I thought it was the dinnerladies' friendly middle-aged concern

Threadwworm Mon 12-May-08 10:18:58

As mum of two DDs aged 9 and 12 I can confirm that they would be way more interested in the quality of the handstand/cartwheel than in the knickers. Though things might soon change for the 12yo I suppose.

Enid Mon 12-May-08 10:19:07



to teach girls that how they dress is ersponsible for boys behaviour is totally wrong and setting a very bad precednet

I would be fuming

Threadwworm Mon 12-May-08 10:19:14

DSs that should be, of course.

brimfull Mon 12-May-08 10:19:17

completely ridiculous

It' making the girls think they have to be embarrassed now.

Fennel Mon 12-May-08 10:19:27

It's not "just being careful", it's teaching little girls that they have to be restrained and covered up angry

Twiglett Mon 12-May-08 10:19:29

no, no no it isn't

it is sexualising, unsexual behaviour

it is putting the onus on the girls and saying that it is their fault boys / men see them as sexual beings

it is so wrong I'd be stomping in to see the head and asking him what the hell he thinks he's playing at


CrackerOfNuts Mon 12-May-08 10:19:30

No no, the head is a bit barking tbh, but she retires soon, so maybe things will change.

I have told both dd's to carry on as they were, and if they get into trouble for it then I will go in and speak to the head.

Threadwworm Mon 12-May-08 10:19:38

Exaxtle, enid.

Twiglett Mon 12-May-08 10:19:47

next step burkhas

how dare they angry

Threadwworm Mon 12-May-08 10:20:25

'exactly', that should be. Can't type todayblush

misdee Mon 12-May-08 10:22:52

dd2 is always flashing her knickers blush she has no shame at all lol.

dd1 is just as bad. she wa flashing hers on the bridge in the playground. they both love their bums though.

Cappuccino Mon 12-May-08 10:23:25

I have already retracted careful

the source makes all the difference

please all stop shouting at me

Twiglett Mon 12-May-08 10:24:54

cracker .. even if she's retiring right-thinking parents need to address this

I think it's a HUGE issue, wrapped up in a itty-bitty issue .. and if the dinner ladies buy into it being normal what other kind of messages are the girls receiving?

I'd be dealing with it .. honestly I would

snowleopard Mon 12-May-08 10:25:33

I would point out to the head that the reason we have knickers is to cover up private parts, so why is an extra layer needed? - and where will it stop?

Agree with twig and enid... this is deeply dodgy in that it implies girls are responsible for not "triggering" boys off or somehow unsettling them - taleban/victorian england style.

CrackerOfNuts Mon 12-May-08 10:25:36

It seems to be ok for them to flash up until they get into juniors, as they get changed for pe with the boys up until that point.

All of mine have gone through a knicker flashing phase at some point. It is currently Ds's turn, as I got him some Ben 10 pants, so now he drops his trousers for all of his friends everytime we get to school grin

Enid Mon 12-May-08 10:26:29

I'd encourage mine to wear no bloody knickers

FluffyMummy123 Mon 12-May-08 10:26:45

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CrackerOfNuts Mon 12-May-08 10:26:59

I will check with Dd1 exactly what has been said to them about it and then speak to her teacher first of all i think.

CrackerOfNuts Mon 12-May-08 10:27:26

Sutton Coldfield Cod, you know, that being where I live and all LOL.

Fennel Mon 12-May-08 10:28:48

It's not exactly "flashing your knickers" to be doing a handstand or climbing a tree which means your knickers occasionally get viewed. That is just playing.

i agree with Twiglett I would be complaining. I might also send my dds to school in shorts but not dresses if they wanted to wear them, but certainly not shorts and dresses. (except for dd3 who insists, but that's not to do with modesty)

Hallgerda Mon 12-May-08 10:29:22

I broadly agree with Fennel, Twiglett and Enid, but is the Head responding to girls wearing thongs rather than sensible knickers? If so, I'd have a bit more sympathy for her position. Might attract the wrong sort of adult onlooker, but of course she can hardly say that to parents for fear of causing panic. Asking the girls to wear shorts is OTT though.

hatwoman Mon 12-May-08 10:30:17

dds' (5 and 7) both stripped off completely in my mum's garden the other day. they were having a wail of a time - they were falling over with laughter as they ran beside the garden wall where passers by (there was actually only one) could see. they looked like streakers - totally nekkid except for their shoes, and waving their hands in the air.

FluffyMummy123 Mon 12-May-08 10:31:40

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chunkychips Mon 12-May-08 10:32:13

agree, snowleopard, that's what knickers are for. How old are the girls? It's pathetic, putting adult thoughts into children's heads.

totalmisfit Mon 12-May-08 10:32:21

why is the emphasis on what the girls have to do to prevent boys looking at their knickers? if it's really a problem, can't the dinner ladies jsut tell the boys to behave themselves?

CrackerOfNuts Mon 12-May-08 10:32:31

Ohhh , will go look Cod.

CrackerOfNuts Mon 12-May-08 10:33:10


Enid Mon 12-May-08 10:33:35

yes agree what is wrong with just knickers?

is there a default number of layers to cover a fanjo at which point it becomes acceptable

why not let girls where shorts or trousers to school if this is really an issue?

That's quite bizarre. In dd's school the boys and girls currently do PE in their vests and knickers, they can wear shorts if they want to. She's only in Reception though. In Y1 they wear PE kit.

Personally I don't think it's a problem for children until they perceive it as a problem. This is clearly an adult's perspective putting issues onto children which really aren't there.

CrackerOfNuts Mon 12-May-08 10:35:14

They can wear trousers Enid, but obviously in this weather they have been wearing dresses.

I seem to vaguley remember that they were told the same thing last summer, but I think I said something along the lines of 'how ridiculous' and they carried on as normal.

I know some girls have actually started taking shorts in though.

FluffyMummy123 Mon 12-May-08 10:35:31

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FluffyMummy123 Mon 12-May-08 10:36:16

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SaintGeorge Mon 12-May-08 10:37:03

Someone suggested this recently at our school, with the reasoning that people might be watching through the fence.

We stomped on the idea quickly, pointing out that if anyone was standing and staring they should be dealt with, not the kids.

misdee Mon 12-May-08 10:37:43

pmsl @ cods blog.

regarding flashing knickers, dd2 does flash hers. she lifts her skirt up anf goes 'whooo' blush

CrackerOfNuts Mon 12-May-08 10:39:57

The primary school does back onto a secondary school(huge field seperates the two mind), but even then, I still don't agree with it, and from what I have seen the majority of the scondary school students, spend more time down at the sandwich shop than in the playground eyeing up primary age girls.

DefinitelyNotMARINAWheeler Mon 12-May-08 10:43:58

I agree with Hallgerda - wonder if the Thong Thing is indeed behind the Head's seeming bizarre and unacceptable decree.
Not all girls are sent to school in age appropriate undies unfortunately, so the "inappropriate sexualising" has possibly already happened.
Maybe it is easier for the Head to tell all the girls to wear shorts, than to tackle the small number whose knickers are too revealing hmm
Challenge it Cracker and report back
Does she send them to school swimming lessons in Victorian bathing dresses? hmm

Enid Mon 12-May-08 10:44:25

sorry cod I didnt realise it was your birthday last week blush

hope you had a lovely day.

DefinitelyNotMARINAWheeler Mon 12-May-08 10:44:34

Oh God misdee that all sounds pretty familiar hmm "see my bottom, woo-hoo"

Enid Mon 12-May-08 10:45:22

too revealing?

of what?

9 year old bottom cheeks?

tell teh boys to get a grip ffs

peanutbear Mon 12-May-08 10:45:41

Chrikey mine go to school in sutton I dread to think what DD will be like then, she is proud of her pants any one can look!!!

I think that shorts under uniform could be pretty un comfortable and having boys myself I dont think they would care a jot at looking at girls nickers they are to busy making mud and putting mown grass down each others backs DS1 is 10 !!!

morningpaper Mon 12-May-08 10:45:56


Threadwworm Mon 12-May-08 10:46:42

It isn't the boys that need to 'get a grip' -- they AREN'T INTERESTED.

largeginandtonic Mon 12-May-08 10:46:49

That is ridiculous!

LOL at Cod's blog, hope it highlights the stupidity of the situation.

largeginandtonic Mon 12-May-08 10:48:16

It was your birthday? A belated Happy Birthday from me, you should have said i would have baked you a cake.

DefinitelyNotMARINAWheeler Mon 12-May-08 10:49:36

You can get thongs for children though - just trying to imagine a rationale for why the Head feels this strongly on an issue that most of us feel is overreacting.

misdee Mon 12-May-08 10:50:42

'hehe lauren wearing red stripey pants today' grin she seems to like to match them, up with school colours. even her teacher commented on how often she shows her knickers off blush dd2 does like to roll about on the floor and really doesnt mind who sees them. i did tell her off for lifting her dress up at the lollipop lady though.

CrackerOfNuts Mon 12-May-08 10:51:47

The head is a bit old fashioned I think. Just trying to think of some other silly rules she has made up, but mind has gone blank.

I realise that some girls might be wearing innapropriate knickers, but that isn't my problem, or my dd's so I don't think they should have to cover up because of it.

The swimming thing raises a good point, as a costume generally covers the same amount of flesh on the bottom half as knickers does, but they all go swimming together. Wonder if the head will request that girls wear shorts over their costumes too.

misdee Mon 12-May-08 10:52:06

thongs for children? dear lord!

GooseyLoosey Mon 12-May-08 10:54:25

Much more sensible IMO to get the boys to wear blindfolds at playtime as it appears to be their conduct that the head has problems with. Of course that would make playing football hazardous so that would have to be banned as well.

morningpaper Mon 12-May-08 10:55:17

lol gooseyloosey

DefinitelyNotMARINAWheeler Mon 12-May-08 10:56:40

misdee, after about 2 billion conversations on why not everyone is as fascinated by Dora/stripy (bloody Charlie and Lola knicks) pants as she is, we have now got dd sort of under control at school re random pants flashing.
Apparently they all go into the toilets to compare knicker design rather than do it in the playground wink
Home is another matter entirely
Cracker, do write to the Head. But don't suggest that she ought to turn her attention to "immodest" swimming attire whatever you do! Where will it end...

I don't think this is any different than arguments about uniform. Uniform is chosen so they can look roughly they same. If there really is some idiot parents out there sending their primary school children in to school in thongs then yes, the head should try to standardise if they are a uniform wearing school.

I don't read this as having anything to do with boys at all but just trying to standardise.

Fine if you're against standardisation and you don't send your children to a uniform wearing school.

misdee Mon 12-May-08 10:59:32

lol notmarinawheeler, i'm asure dd2 goes itno the loo and compares knicker patterns with her friends as well.

i have never met another child so knicker obsessed. mind you dd3 is very proud of her big girl knickers and likes to flash them as well. she spent all of saturday atthe river in just her knickers, and got very irate with one of dd1 friends who said she was too young to wear knickers and she should be wearinf nappies. she went and yelled at him that she was a big girl and didnt wear nappies at all shockgrin

KerryMum Mon 12-May-08 10:59:50

sounds reasonable to me.

windygalestoday Mon 12-May-08 11:00:45

i know a politically incorrect joke about this ......

CrackerOfNuts Mon 12-May-08 11:02:17

It is nothing to do with them all wearing the same Laurie. It is so that the boys don't see their knickers.

I mean fgs I used to walk around my front lawn on my hands wearing a skirt at the same age as dd1, so I was flashing to the whole street.

It is OTT.

If either of my dd's were bothered about a boy seeing their knickers then they'd not be doing the handstands in the first place would they.

HuwEdwards Mon 12-May-08 11:02:31

You can get thongs for children shock What the flying fuck is all that about?

Piffle Mon 12-May-08 11:03:30

dds teacher mentioned that her knickers were quite loose
( dd micro skinny) so we need to find boxer shorts for dd. Where anyone?

CrackerOfNuts Mon 12-May-08 11:05:00

Woolies had some short type knickers in, but not sure what age they started from.

misdee Mon 12-May-08 11:06:52

think tesco do them piffle, but not sure they do them for your dd's size (she is very wee isnt she?).

mind you asda ones in age 2-3 are a bit tight on dd3 who is just in age 2-3 clothes.

CrackerOfNuts Mon 12-May-08 11:07:41

Next also have some short type pants, but they start at 5/6.

Piffle Mon 12-May-08 11:08:42

dd is 5.5 wears age 2-3 knickers and they're baggy round the leg area.
hmm think unless boxers go to her knees I best keep her in shorts not dresses or skirts, which is sad as she is a feminine girl who wants to wear dresses like her mates, who for the record cartwheel with gay abandon and pick dried grass from their nethers in full view of the footballing boys... Who never notice. Girls are creatures which play over there.
end of

DefinitelyNotMARINAWheeler Mon 12-May-08 11:09:17

piff, French catalogues do girl boxer short type knickers and always come up slim-fitting.
Dd is usually in French undies for the same reason. Bad enough that most of her trousers and skirts fall down all the time...
The thing about uniform is that it's nice for kids who have views on this matter to exercise their individuality somehow in what they wear day to day.
Even quite strict uniform codes do not specify underpant colours for either sex. So mine have quite loud and jolly pants by preference.

FluffyMummy123 Mon 12-May-08 11:11:17

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FluffyMummy123 Mon 12-May-08 11:12:33

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misdee Mon 12-May-08 11:13:03

tbh the boys in dd1 class arent interested in the girls knickers at all. they are too busy chasing each other and shoving things down each others t-shirts from what i've seen.

misdee Mon 12-May-08 11:13:52

piff, the asda kncikers are tight round the leg cuffs. they come up very small.

DefinitelyNotMARINAWheeler Mon 12-May-08 11:36:53

I think we are all agreed it is the Head who is bothered by the breeks not the boys. Go get her Cracker

ChicaLovesHerLocalGreengrocer Mon 12-May-08 11:40:45

Just remembered that when I started primary school, we did have uniform knickers - big thick navy blue 'merids' as they were called. Horrid!

cory Mon 12-May-08 11:42:10

She sounds like the batty head of the school next to dh's office. School looks like a bloody fortress, all hidden behind walls and fences, the only thing you can see are enormous Stranger Danger placards as you approach. Apparently, the head tried to stop the council from putting up flats in the neighbourhood as some of them might be able to overlook the playground and (shock! horror!) see the children.

Needless to say, parents go to great lengths not to have to send their children to this school. Hardly a healthy environment.

VanillaPumpkin Mon 12-May-08 11:43:38

OMG! I would be livid! How bloody ridiculous. Self image and paranoia starts young enough as it is without making little girls feel self conscious like this angry.

TheDevilWearsPrimark Mon 12-May-08 11:45:43

We used to do p.e in our knickers and vests, it certainly caused no harm to me.

TheDevilWearsPrimark Mon 12-May-08 11:47:26

''yes it slike the old retort to domestic violence vicitms

"if oyu dont liek it leave"

well why doenst he STOP?!!''

Interesting cod after your comments on my threads. (sorry for hijack) If you feel like replying do it on my email thread.

MrsCarrot Mon 12-May-08 11:47:49

DD does PE in her vest and knickers all the time, your head sounds like a weirdo.

TheDevilWearsPrimark Mon 12-May-08 11:49:35

I think this is very damaging. It's important to see and learn about each others bodies when you are young and it is innocent. If this is held back then everyone who reaches puberty will become insanely curious and in a less innocent way.

Blu Mon 12-May-08 11:50:11

Even if it is playboy logo thongs that are causing this, could not a note in the Newsletter say 'could parents please be sure to send children in underwear which is suitable for all activities including PE and playtime cartwheels and appropriate to thier childhood status - i.e no pole-dancing outfits' rather thandecree that all wear shorts?

'Our' head has asked that parents do NOT send children in spaghetti straps / shoulderless tops in the heat - she hasn't decreed that because of the foolish behaviour of a few parents that all children should wear anoraks all summer!

RubyRioja Mon 12-May-08 11:53:18

As someone with 3 dds, all I would say is lots of 'short style' pants are very low cut and loose.

My dds have received soem lovely(!) sequinned versions as gifts with little camisole tops. I am not keen but they love them - so my weekend only ban is often floughted. Plus it is getting harder to find proper 'briefs' and lots of bikini pants are in stores.

If a junior school, maybe there are a few girls in unsuitable pants?

On a related issue - when do juniors stop changing all together in the same room?

Enid Mon 12-May-08 11:54:15

french superamrktes do good 'boxer' shrots for girls

they are strectchy and tiny for skinny girls - even if they do say things like 'crazy panda!!' on them hmm

FluffyMummy123 Mon 12-May-08 11:55:49

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FluffyMummy123 Mon 12-May-08 11:56:34

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RubyRioja Mon 12-May-08 11:56:37

I dress mine in granny pants that virtually reach their (non existent) nipples. Then my sister buys them Bratz undies for the mini-hooker look.

CrackerOfNuts Mon 12-May-08 11:56:41

I never have any trouble finding suitable knickers for either dd, age 10&8.

Actually mine wear Primark knickers, so I suppose dd1 will soon choose not to show them off anyway, as they won't be cool enough LOL.

CrackerOfNuts Mon 12-May-08 11:57:14

Ok Cod hang on. Do you not have my email addy anymore ?

FluffyMummy123 Mon 12-May-08 11:58:17

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CrackerOfNuts Mon 12-May-08 11:58:19


FluffyMummy123 Mon 12-May-08 11:58:34

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CrackerOfNuts Mon 12-May-08 11:58:36


CrackerOfNuts Mon 12-May-08 11:58:55


Did you not know I was nutty ?

FluffyMummy123 Mon 12-May-08 12:04:23

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CrackerOfNuts Mon 12-May-08 12:06:10

LOL, I namechanged ages ago.

DefinitelyNotMARINAWheeler Mon 12-May-08 12:30:25

LOL at "crazy panda" Enid, but they are still great pants aren't they
Trust me, the boys' "messages" are even more odd wink

branflake81 Mon 12-May-08 14:34:30


When I was at primary school, our "pe kit" was our knickers and vest.

And none of the boys gave a shit. As you would expect.

Perhaps I'm very old-fashioned or just a prude...but my dd wears shorts under her dresses all the time. She chooses to wear them, because we have taught her to be modest. What on earth is wrong with modesty? dd plays very hard at school and she doesn't want everyone seeing her pants.

Now, if I was told she HAD to wear shorts, I wouldn't be happy about it. I don't like being told what to do grin I don't understand all the "who cares? it's just knickers fgs" comments, but I suppose modesty is a personal choice.

MrsBadger Mon 12-May-08 15:20:32

how far does it go though?

she wears knickers so you can't see her bottom
and shorts so you can't see the knickers
and a skirt so (most of the time) you can't see the shorts

what next?

Why does there have to be a next? Who puts a skirt on to cover shorts? I have worn shorts under a skirt as a child when I was going to play hard, and I have not progressed to a perhaps being modest with your knickers doesn't have to progress to hysterical proportions.

mrsruffallo Mon 12-May-08 15:29:11

Banana Pudding- It sounds as if you consider girls who don't wear shorts immodest.
I would have no intention of asking my daughter to wear shorts.

edam Mon 12-May-08 15:32:02

You might consider it to be modesty, I'd suggest it's teaching your daughter that there's something shameful about her body.

FluffyMummy123 Mon 12-May-08 15:40:44

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Whatever happened to tucking your skirt/dres into your knickers so the dress/skirt didn't fall over your head when doing a handstand... were we the only girls that used to do this?? smile

To the OP yes the head is barmy.

TheFallenMadonna Mon 12-May-08 15:47:51

Sorry, but "modest with your knickers"? Eh?

There's nothing more to see with knickers (assuming these primary age children aren't in thongs, which is a whole other thread) than in a swimming costume surely?

hatrick Mon 12-May-08 15:48:11

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edam Mon 12-May-08 15:48:21

well said, Cod!

FluffyMummy123 Mon 12-May-08 15:48:41

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TheDevilWearsPrimark Mon 12-May-08 15:50:46

icod, you are funny at times but that was below the belt no?

TheDevilWearsPrimark Mon 12-May-08 15:51:21

op is over the top but no need for that..

VanillaPumpkin Mon 12-May-08 15:52:10

I would feel incredibly sad if my 5 year old came home and asked to wear shorts under he dress. I would wonder where I had gone wrong tbh.
They are children. Their carefree innocence is being eroded earlier and earlier.
There is nothing 'modest' about wearing shorts imo. I would just think what a shame sad.

TheDevilWearsPrimark Mon 12-May-08 16:56:13

Should my toddler have not strolled around the park in a short dress and pants? When does it end/start?

FluffyMummy123 Mon 12-May-08 16:57:35

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FluffyMummy123 Mon 12-May-08 16:57:48

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cadelaide Mon 12-May-08 16:59:03


stark raving bonkers.

the world's gone mad.

now i'll read the thread.

I think part of my perception on this is colored by the fact that in the US (I have no idea about UK) there have been major problems with perverts taking photos of young children in public and trying to get pictures up their dresses and then posting on the internet.

Obviously I know that knickers are just clothing the same as, say, socks. I also know that the problem lies with the twisted adults who might target a little girl this way, and that they are the ones who should be dealt with, not the children. Sadly though, at least here, it is rarely some icky person standing at the school fence hoping for a glance but more likely someone further away with a telephoto lens. So I choose to put shorts under a dress to protect her from that sort of thing. And before I get slated for teaching her to fear all strangers or cameras, I have never stated my parental reasons for shorts under dresses to her. Just that knickers are UNDERclothes.

I honestly don't believe I am teaching my daughter that her body is something to be ashamed of. We are not prudish within our family, she runs around the house in knickers or naked all the time.

I don't know if perhaps knickers being a private thing is a cultural difference?

Thanks for apologising Cod, I appreciate it.

cory Mon 12-May-08 19:48:41

Does that mean you would never allow your child on the beach in a swimsuit? Or do you believe a perv couldn't equally get a kick from that? And if so, why would the child be more damaged if he is slavering over a picture of her doing handstands than over her in her bikini?

I would expect a school to be more vigilant about who hangs around outside the playground than you could ever be on the beach.

Besides, if these photos are taken on the sly- how would the child suffer from it? They are not actually being abused, are they?

In our school, there was talk of banning all photography of nativity plays as pervs might get hold of the pictures. Yet the school photograph was published in the local press every year. And noone was ever able to explain to me what harm would come to my child from a perv seeing a photo of him posing as a shepherd with a teatowel on his head.

Plenty of adverts, and photos in medical books, parenting books etc show semi-naked photos of young children. Naturally, a perv could use those pictures for purposes they were not intended for. But the original subject would not be likely to come to any harm from that.

seeker Mon 12-May-08 20:01:50

Another case of our children's freedom being curtailed by perceived dangers - this makes me so cross!
Even if some moron took a photo of my child paying in the playground I would rather that happened than she absorbed the message that it is her responsibility to mediate male behaviour by the ways she dresses. And anyway I am pretty sure that a paedophile could find much more "satisfying" pictures much easier than using a telephoto lens on a school playground.

aintnomountainhighenough Mon 12-May-08 20:02:14

This is ridiculous. I assume then that the girls have to get changed separately for PE?

hatrick Mon 12-May-08 20:09:19

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WiiMii Mon 12-May-08 20:10:03

To OP - What a load of shoite.

cupsoftea Mon 12-May-08 20:12:21

ridculous to wear shorts under a skirt.

edam Mon 12-May-08 20:12:26

Is the US really full of paedophiles with long-range lenses pointed at school playgrounds? And even if it was, how would your dd be harmed if someone a long way away took a photo of her fully clothed without her knowledge? Nasty, but not a direct threat to her.

WiiMii Mon 12-May-08 20:12:42

Modesty? They don't do handstands knickerless (presumably).

Their fanny isn't on show so what difference does shorts make?

Flame Mon 12-May-08 20:14:48

This is horrible

One of DD's friends always wears shorts with a skirt, always has. I find it odd and sad tbh.

Children are children - mine are normally naked at weekends and frequently show knickers at school (care bear knickers were a dubious idea... her poor teacher blush)

seeker Mon 12-May-08 20:16:33

I don't think you should campaign for shorts, but campaign for the banning of thongs.

Flame Mon 12-May-08 20:17:53

Who buys thongs for yr 5 n 6 kids for school??

The only time I can see them being acceptable is for dancing (Psycho's girls didn't want no knickers under leotards for the shows, thongs were the only things that worked)

hatrick Mon 12-May-08 20:20:46

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BellaDonna79 Mon 12-May-08 20:22:37

Simple, do as my prep school did and enforce regulation knickers. Delightful royal blue things they were. Worn over knickers from home they were that funny gymnastics leotard material...
At prize givings/concerts etc we had to lift our skirts/dresses up round our waists to ensure we were wearing the regulation panties!
But for PE we wore them with a tiny cropped top/sports bra thingy, pe included doing cross country around a local park which in retrospect would probably be a lot more exciting for any predatory wierdys lurking than 2 seconds of pink panties at a 1/4 mile distance.
Hatrick, where on God's earth do you get a thong to fit a 9 or 10 year old?!?! and more's the point what sort of parent lets their DD wear one at that age?

hatrick Mon 12-May-08 20:25:57

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LittleBella Mon 12-May-08 20:27:44

I would be horrified if my DD felt the need to be modest with her knickers.

I can only suppose it's about thongs. Otherwise the head too stupid to be explicable.

emkana Mon 12-May-08 20:30:59

Funnily enough dd1, who is 7, has expressed this last week a wish to wear knee-length leggings under her school summer dress, because when the wind makes her dress fly up the boys in her class will tease her by shouting "we can see your knickers"

emkana Mon 12-May-08 20:31:28

Just to add, I went out and got her the desired leggings, and she's wearing them every day.

sprogger Mon 12-May-08 20:34:41

Bizarre. I didn't grow up in a country where uniforms are the norm, so I find the whole idea of little girls being forced to wear skirts so they habitually flash their knickers whilst playing pretty weird in itself. What's wrong with trousers? Will they forget they're girls if they don't get skirts?

emkana Mon 12-May-08 20:36:20

Nobody forces my dd's to wear dresses, but that's all they want to wear.

Hulababy Mon 12-May-08 20:55:29

I'd rather DD was forced to wear a school dress any day that have to put her into those vile articles that call themselves school troushers <shudder> Not that DD is forced into dresses at all - even if not uniform it'd be what she chose to wear anyday over trousers or shorts!

Anchovy Mon 12-May-08 23:15:09

LOL - we used to tuck our skirts into our knickers for better cartwheel action.

serin Mon 12-May-08 23:44:17

Easter assembly,
Whole school gathered together,
There's DD1 age 10, sat at the front, facing the audience ready to do her reading, and myself and DH proud as anything watching.

....then she crosses her legs and spends the next 20 mins with her blue spotty knickers on show.

I'm crossing and uncrossing my legs like Sharon Stone and pointing to my fanjo and the headteacher is giving me really strange looks.

DD looked embarrassed by my behaviour but remained blissfully unaware of her own, and I swear that I honestly don't think another person in the whole room noticed, not even her dad.

Wearing shorts under dresses is not progress.

Zazette Tue 13-May-08 00:43:52

'major problems with perverts taking photos of young children in public and trying to get pictures up their dresses and then posting on the internet'. Evidence please.

twinsetandpearls Tue 13-May-08 00:50:58

Are you sure the teachers are insisting. My dd is wearing shorts under her dress for cartwheels and handstands at her request. I can remember doing the same.

seeker Tue 13-May-08 09:27:05

I haven't heard of a state primary in this country that doesn't allow trousers, but a lot of younget girls in particular like wearing dresses, particularly in the heat.

I object very strongly to the idea that girls should be expected to dress in particular ways because of the effect their clothes may have on boys behaviour, or because of a hypothetical paedophile with a telephoto lens (really? I would need to be convinced)If girls internalize this message, it's only a short step from there to "she was wearing a short skirt - she was asking for it" - and we all know how pervasive that attitude was - and sadly is.

Enid Tue 13-May-08 09:39:19

ours doesnt (state primary, no trousers for girls)

Anna8888 Tue 13-May-08 09:45:18

Shorts under dresses.

Thongs for five year olds.

Crikey sad.

My daughter wears Petit Bateau cotton pants with excellent bottom coverage. No worries about anything.

MaloryTowers Tue 13-May-08 09:48:09

ours pnly allows trousers from oct-feb

and i think this shorts thing is FARKIN CRAZY

<<<<shakes head again at this mad world>>>>>

seeker Tue 13-May-08 10:20:23

OK - I think all you mothers of no-trouser schools should write to the head and the chair of governors immediately. Outrageous!

Fennel Tue 13-May-08 10:26:27

I think that no state primary can actually enforce uniform anyway, they can only encourage. So you don't have to adhere to the rules if you don't like them.

My dd1 sometimes wears navy shorts and school polo shirt instead of her dress, like the boys, it's not official uniform for the girls (though trousers are) but noone complains.

seeker Tue 13-May-08 10:40:43

If it's very hot at our primary school everybody changes into their PE kit. It started becaue we have a couple of old fashioned hut classrooms which get very hot in the summer, so the children in there were allowed to change. It was such a good idea that everyone does now when it's hot. They have to change back to go home - someting about corporate image, I suppose!

CrackerOfNuts Tue 13-May-08 10:51:28

Quick update : have today sent dd1 undercover lol, to make sure of the actual rule. She is to do as many cartwheels and handstands as posible, with knickers flashing to get the dinner ladies attention.

Have then told her to ask dinner lady why they have to wear shorts and if it has come from the head.

BrassicaNapusNapobrassica Tue 13-May-08 11:01:37

We used to do gym in our vests and knickers and boys in their vests and pants.

I confirm what Threadwworm says about boys is absolutely true. Boys are completely not interested in girls of their knickers. When my son was 8 there was a girl in his class who kept chasing him for a kiss, and repeatedly telling him she loved him. His class teacher told me she overheard the girl saying 'I love you' and my son replying 'That's very nice but if you come near me again I'll kill you' grin If she'd been able to do keepie ups he would probably be engaged by now.

Astrophe Tue 13-May-08 11:05:11

I know its very MN to say so, but I think these skorts are the ideal summer uniform for girls, if indeede they need to wear skirts at all.

Flame Tue 13-May-08 11:48:11

I prefer dresses in the summer - no waist bands or anything.

I am oddly anti-school girl trousers anyway blush Much to DD's disgust.

flossy999 Tue 13-May-08 13:35:27

My friend is a dinner lady or lunchtime supervisor as they are now called and you should hear the list of what they aren't supposed to do.
No handstands or cartwheels
No rolling or skidding on grass
No throwing grass I can understand this

She thinks it is a health and safety issue.

God i have a 8 & 5 daughters 5 son they have all gone through flashing maybe in a song or just for the sake of it now my 8 year old would not purposely flash her pants at anybody but would happily do handstands etc all day I would be disgusted if my girls were told to put on shorts so boys couldn't see thier knickers boys untill at least 11 are not even intrested and alot of girls by 11 and 12 aren't doing handstands anymore.
Politically correct brigade will have our girls dressed in Burka's soon just so we dont offend our multi racial society

MaloryTowers Tue 13-May-08 20:44:35

im GLAD dds school only allows trousers for 4 months ayr

if it was up to me i would ban them for girls

<<<horrible items of clothing>>>>

clam Tue 13-May-08 21:07:43

Re: handstands. Whilst I get as cross as the next person when I hear of conkers etc... being banned in schools, I would point out that one pf my pupils landed awkwardly from a handstand onto her friend, breaking her leg so badly she was off school in traction for a couple of months! So, I'm afriad we now ban them. Shame, but....

LittleBella Tue 13-May-08 21:16:12

LOL crackerofnuts, I trust you didn't attach a merkin to her pants?

seeker Tue 13-May-08 21:40:02

clam - a little boy at ds's school fell down the staid and got concussion. Should we have banned stairs?

clam Tue 13-May-08 21:48:41

Of course not, seeker. But have you watched the handstand brigade at breaks. They merrily fling themselves upside down (as you do, although I've not attempted it myself recently) without looking who's nearby. The number of kicks in the face there are, and near misses, is a worry to lots of Heads who, frankly, are going to be in the firing line with any litigious parent. Unfortunately, that's the workd we live in nowadays. I suppose one concession is to train the children in "handstand awareness" wink but it even that wouldn't stand up in court. And, if it was your child off school for several months, you might be asking some questions of the Head too.

Fennel Wed 14-May-08 09:44:54

Best if children aren't allowed to move or go out to play at all, I think. That way there would be less risk of damaging themselves. hmm Though they could all die in middle age of sedentary and obesity-related diseases instead.

I was watching my dds and their friends yesterday, 6 utterly naked girls, the oldest was nine, capering around the garden (not particularly private, all the neighbours can see). And I am really glad my dds and their friends aren't yet bothered by "modesty".

morningpaper Wed 14-May-08 09:46:29


seeker Wed 14-May-08 10:54:05

Words failed me!

i broke my leg doing handstands as a kid.

Fennel Wed 14-May-08 11:01:38

Thinking of health over a lifetime though a broken limb in childhood is actually less dangerous than a sedentary lifestyle. The current generation of children is predicted to have a huge problem with inactivity and obesity, life expectancy for them is predicted to be lower than for our generation. If you're health and safety conscious, then discouraging children from strenuous physical activity is not the way to go.

PestoMonster Wed 14-May-08 11:02:45

How ridiculous! My dd2 was chatting on the way to school today and told me that she and her friend were judging the other girls doing handstands on the field at playtime. The only thing was, they weren't judging the quality of the handstands themselves, they were choosing the knickers they thought were the best shock grin

seeker Wed 14-May-08 11:03:58

My friend dislocated her baby's shoulder putting a babygro on her. A and E said it was quite common....Not sure what to ban - babygros, mothers, non-professional baby dressers, clothes in general...

i dislocated my sons elbow putting armnads on so i now put on armbands in a different way and far more cautious.

WideWebWitch Wed 14-May-08 11:58:01

Oh god, this is mad, agree with enid et al.

katebee Wed 14-May-08 13:24:57

I think the blue shorts thing is ridiculous. We have the same rule at our primary school..apparently due to there being one male member of staff - the caretaker.

cory Wed 14-May-08 16:48:51

Dd's friend broke her leg when her little sister sat on it. Dd is firmly of the opinion that younger siblings ought to be banned in the interests of health and safety. She might well have a point.

clam Wed 14-May-08 19:25:35

There are always going to be unavoidable accidents in life - babygros, vicious flights of stairs, whatever. BUT, if your child suffered a serious injury at school (or anywhere else) wouldn't you want to know that the school was taking steps to prevent it happening again? So, while I agree that handstands ought to be a rite of passage for small children out on the grass in the sunshine, if the practice is leading to accidents because there are too many kids milling about for it to be done safely, then it is surely the Head's duty to avoid them. They can always do them at home in the garden, or in the park with fewer people about and you in charge.

cory Thu 15-May-08 10:32:27

That would really have to depend on whether I felt the school was in any way at fault.

If I had been the Mum of the little boy who feel down the stairs, I would not have demanded that the school dismantle its stairs. Nor do I see how the school could guarantee that noone was ever to fall down them again.

My friend's ds got concussion from a collision when playing football- she did not rush into the school to demand that the school should ban team sports.

Another child at dd's school slipped and broke her foot right under the teacher's eye during a (supervised) PE lesson. If I were her parent, I would want to know that the teacher had been present and not doing anything wrong (i.e. encouraged them to use equipment wrongly). I would not expect them to promise that a freak accident could never happen.

clam Thu 15-May-08 12:29:27

Yes, that all makes sense. I suppose, though, it's whether someone could argue that it wasn't such a freak accident if children were continuing to (as they do) fling themselves about in a confined space after someone had suffered an accident in that way. Isn't that asking for trouble? And however much you tell them to be careful, at the end of the day they're kids, and therefore impulsive. And also, with the slip-on shoes that the girls are wearing these days, many fly off their feet, randomly, and are at regular risk of landing in someone's face at speed. So then you're back in the realms of dressing up for handstands (whether it's shorts under their skirts or cahnging into trainers) which many would say is too precious. I don't know what the answer is, except that too many Heads are reluctant to lay themselves open to charges of neglect and so err on the side of caution.

primaryteacher Thu 15-May-08 15:19:37

OK, here's how it works at our school (I'm a teacher and parent at the same school). A few years ago we had seveal older girls who were quite well developed IYSWIM. They were however, typical 9,10,11 year olds in every other way and wanted to do cartwheels, handstands and sit in 'un-ladylike' positions during class assemblies! As several of them had started their periods, our lovely head had a chat with the older girls and said if they wanted to wear plain black shorts under their summer dresses this would be a good idea (for the rest of the year they wear skirts and tights or trousers, so not a problem). This was fine, but it spread through the rest of the school like wild fire and we now have reception girls in shorts under their dresses. I think it is preferable to have reception girls in summer dresses with shorts than older girls flashing pubic hair and sanitary towels, but maybe thats just me!! I have to say that when my DD starts school, she will be wearing a summer dress with no shorts underneath and when she is older and if it becomes an issue, she will wear smart shorts and a checked summer top. Call me old fashioned but I think its the parents responsibilty to dress children as appropriate to their age and decency, not the school's to have to make suggestions re. modesty. In this case though, it was clear that parents were not going to do anything about it, so school needed to. Changed nick name for this BTW, don't make a habit of talking about other people's periods on talk boards!!

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