does size of school matter?

[ladymuckingitup]

My dd is 3, and I am starting to think about which of our 2 local primary schools to choose for her. One has an amazing reputation but is in the process of expanding from 2-form to 3-form entry. The other seems fine but less brilliant, and has 3-form entry. DD has never been especially keen on large boisterous groups of children, but I don't know whether it is the class size that is more important than size of intake? I think both schools would have the same class size. I would definitely have chosen the expanding school prior to its expansion, but should I change perspective now? If anyone has any thoughts on this or experience of good schools which have expanded, I'd be very grateful to hear. I don't really know what impact the overall size of the school would have on a child.

[NKF]

So either way you will have a three form school? Is that right?

[ladymuckingitup]

Oops no.... sorry... I meant to say, the expanding school is changing from 2-form to 4-form entry. Duh.

[cazzybabs]

small class sizes - everyones knows your dd, lots of time for attention, doesn't get lost in a big crowd.

large school - good budget, lots of resources - may have more staff

[tiredAli]

Small class size better. Big and little schools both have their advantages and disadvantages - go with which one feels right for you.

[myermay]

Message withdrawn

[roisin]

DSs go to a 2-form entry primary school. It's oversubscribed so 30 in every class. The school is fantastic, superb, amazing, and wonderful in every way; as is the Head. There are lots of advantages in having a 'big' school (480 children including nursery), as long as it is managed well and still remains a cohesive community.

But I work in a 1000-student secondary, and personally I would prefer my children not to go to a school that large at any stage in their education career.

[ladymuckingitup]

Hm. Both schools are oversubscribed, so I guess they would both have 30 to a class. So both are big. I wonder whether any of the good things about the expanding school are likely to change as it expands?

[roisin]

I would visit the schools and see which Head Teacher impresses you the most, because that is most important.

At my boys' school the budget is very tightly managed, and they benefit from the economies of scale of a larger school. An e.g. of the facilities they have:

Full time non-teaching SENCO and Head Teacher
Deputy Heads with additional management time per week
Specialist 0.5 music teacher - teaches every class music in KS2
Specialist French teacher
Specialist IT teachers
Lots and lots of TAs - in KS1 classes and doing booster sessions with KS2 children
Separate assembly/PE hall/not dual purpose
Two 'auditoriums' to seat up to 60 kids for a 'talk' or watch a video/DVD
IT suite with 36 networked PCs
Smartboards in every class
Many 'whole school' events, which are 'big' given the size of the school; but not draining on staff energy/enthusiasm because they don't need to be all involved with all of them.

• as well as 3 productions per year they also have visiting theatre companies, dance workshops, drama classes. Also visiting poet does workshops with all the students, etc. etc.
  
• these sorts of events provide far better 'value for money' in a large school because the 'per head' cost is lower
  
  That's all I can think of for now!
  
  HTH

[ladymuckingitup]

Thanks roisin, that's interesting. The expanding school is already very energetic and imaginative, so I presume they would make the economies of scale work in a similar way. I hadn't thought about it that way.

[nlondondad]

The school you are talking about is unmistakably Coleridge School in Haringey. Easy to identify as it is the only school in the country expanding like this.You need to know that its expansion was and is enormously controversial in the school and local community. At this stage the easiest way of informing yourself about the arguments would be to plough through back issues of the Ham and High Broadway Edition. Articles and letters.

To summarise a huge argument in an unrepresentative few sentences:-

The expansion seems to have been driven by the enthusiasm of the current Head. The two main reasons given for it on the school web site are:-

1. Setting up a separate school on the new site, as originally proposed by the council and supported by local residents, so you would have two schools facing each other across the road would have "divided the community between two schools"

1. Economies of scale.

The main argument against it was that turning a successful two form entry school into a four form entry school on a split site divided by a main road was not a good idea. (Anyway apart from the limitations of the site, four form entry Primary schools are most unusual, three form is usually seen as the largest one should go. Many think two form entry ideal, and one form entry too small.)

So there you are.

I can only say, have an open mind, and look around all the local schools. In the case of Coleridge see if you are satisfied that economies of scale will be achieved and will benefit your child.

[Maenad]

Thanks nlondondad, you are of course right, I'm talking about Coleridge. Versus Rokesly. I have read a little of the back story, but haven't managed to really fully understand the issues I think. I have read the argument that it was not a good idea to turn a successful two form entry school into a four form entry one, but I don't know why that might be the case. Are you able to enlighten me? What do you think the actual impact might be on the children? (and by the way, if you have any knowledge of Rokesly too, I'd be very grateful!)

[Maenad]

Should probably point out that I was formerly ladymuckingitup. Obviously now I have stopped mucking things up and am a follower of Dionysus.

[goingfor3]

The school is changing completeley by doubling in size, they may not be able to cope. I would go to the one which isn't expanding.

[hippipotami]

Also, there would be the building work, and the disruption. And then if they want two schools, each a two form, on each side of the road, how are they going to organise this with the exisiting pupils. Will they get split between the two schools?

My dc go to a 3 form entry school. Yes it is big, but because all 3 forms mix for PE, playtime, music, events etc etc, many of the children know each other. We are forever bumping into the dc's friends in the village, the supermarket, the park etc etc.
The school has large resources, many special events (visting authors, musicians etc) and an active PTA. Despite it's size it has a real community feel. So don't rule out the 3 form school.

[Maenad]

Well, the building work should be finished by the time dd starts school in 2009. The plan is not to create two separate shcools on each side of the road, but to have the nursery and infants on one side of the road, and juniors on the other. I'm not sure how much the two halves would be integrated.

[hippipotami]

Ah, that makes more sense

I think either school is going to be on the bigger side, so I would visit both and just go with the one you feel happiest with.

[frogs]

I'd identified the school as well, nlondondad!

There was a coleridge vs rokesly thread a good few months ago, which included some mildly amusing characterisations of the typical Coleridge parents vs. the Rokesley parents. Might be worth trying to dig it up.

FWIW, my kids have moved from a one-form entry to two different two-form entry primary schools also in N. London but not quite as far north as you and you don't really notice the difference. If anything it's a bonus having extra kids in the peer group.

[Maenad]

I'm relieved to hear that a 3-form entry school can still feel like a proper community.

I was beginning to feel slightly despondent as I hadn't actually realised initially that 3-form was particularly large. Is there an emoticon for ignorance??

[Maenad]

Ooh, thank you frogs. I had no idea. Will have a trawl now.

[frogs]

Here is the thread.

[Maenad]

Thank you! I had just been trying and failed to find it. Very entertained by descriptions of parents...

[frogs]

3-form is quite large for london, maenaed. Islington (our borough) has no schools larger than 2-form intake, and I suspect others are similar.

But I don't think the absolute school size matters as much as the way it's all handled by the school. I was expecting a 2-form entry school to feel v. different to a 1-form one, but I can report that it doesn't really.

I would ask:

Do they mix the classes up as they go up the school, and if so on what basis?

Are the classes done on ability or age-streaming?

What arrangements do they have for children to mix within the year group? Four form is too big for them to do eg. joint PE lessons, so would be interested to know how it is handled.

What arrangements do they have for children to mix across year groups? it strikes me that in a school with year groups of 120 the opportunity to mix with kids from different year groups (valuable imo) might be limited, so would want to see what the school's response is to this.

How do they deal with year-based/curriculum based activities, eg school trips? If all Y4 classes are doing the same topic, do they take all of them to eg. the British Museum at the same time? Whatever the answer, the question is how do they get the balance between sharing activities across the year group and preventing the groups getting too big?

Also think about what kind of parent you are. Are you academically pushy, or do middle-class boden-wearing pushy parents get right up your nose? What are the main secondary school destinations for the Y6 kids, and how does that fit with what you envisage for your children?

[Maenad]

Thank you frogs, this is really helpful. I feel completely clueless about schools.

Re. your question about whether they mix up the classes as they go up the school - would it be a good thing if they did? It sounds a bit disruptive? I've never heard of age-streaming... is it a Good Thing?

[frogs]

I don't think it matters per se, it's just interesting to hear what they have to say about it.

Most 2-form+ entry schools will mix kids up at some point the transition from Infants to Juniors (Y2-Y3) is a popular point. The idea is that it's good for them to meet other kids and to mix up the dynamics of the class a bit. I'm inclined to think it's a good thing overall dd1 spent her entire primary career in a one-form entry school and by Y6 the kids had spent 8 years in a classrom with the same people and were all heartily sick of each other. I think a judicious shake-up at Y3 could have made a huge difference, had there been a parallel class to mix with.

At dd2's current (2-form entry) school, the classes are done on an age basis, so the September entry form one Reception class and the January entry (summer born) another Reception class, and they keep them like that right the way up the school. I did ask whether they didn't feel it would be good to have the chance to change the dynamics a bit, but they seemed to feel not. It's a v. successful school, so can't really argue, but i think normal practice is to have a bit more of a mixed economy.

It's worth knowing these things before you start in case it matters to you, and also it gives you some ideas of things to ask.

Four form is BIG, it would be worth making sure they have a very clear idea of how it's going to work in practice.

[roisin]

I agree with much that frogs says. My boys' (two-form) entry school (described earlier in the thread) is the biggest primary school in the County - so not usual in this area.

But there are many advantages. Our school mixes at yr2-3, for the reasons frogs explains. The result is that children across a year group know each other very well, and have good friends in other classes. Also the school is big enough to have a 'house system', which encourages a community feel.

I would want to ask about Assemblies. Physically getting large numbers of children into and out of a hall takes strict discipline and a routine, and quite a bit of time. Our primary has daily assemblies, three are whole school, two are infant/junior separate. One is led by children from a class, and another is praise assembly. These give students a good chance to start to get to know children from other years.

If a school does not have a hall big enough for 'whole school' assemblies, I would expect there not to be such a community feel around the place.

I work in a secondary and students even 3-4 years older than my ds1 from his primary know/remember him because the primary develops a real ethos of 'everybody knowing everybody'.