Specific question about the appeals process

(32 Posts)
ShowOfHands Thu 02-Jun-16 17:39:34

If 2 families are appealing and they prove that the school can admit 2 further children above PAN, do those places get allocated according to admissions criteria? So according to the waiting list? I presume so. Does that hypothetically mean you could appeal, prove the school can exceed PAN and gain a place for another child whose family didn't appeal and still be without a place for your own child?

IrisPrima Thu 02-Jun-16 17:45:23

No, if you appeal and win a place for your child then it will go to your child.

ShowOfHands Thu 02-Jun-16 18:00:27

Even if the appeal doesn't go as far as your specific appeal? In a group appeal where the school/governing body doesn't prove prejudice? It automatically goes to the appealing families and not the waiting list?

titchy Thu 02-Jun-16 19:30:36

Yes.

PatriciaHolm Thu 02-Jun-16 20:05:57

Yes. Appeals and the waiting list are entirely seperate.

PatriciaHolm Thu 02-Jun-16 20:06:21

Yes. Appeals and the waiting list are entirely seperate.

ShowOfHands Thu 02-Jun-16 21:18:57

Oh that's interesting. I assumed admissions criteria took precedent. Thank you for confirming. Sorry for the delay, was at choir 🎶

NynaevesSister Thu 02-Jun-16 22:16:35

Well it depends. They might not be the only two appealing. If so then the places are allocated according to the admissions criteria.

One of the experts on appeals will be along soon to give you a proper answer smile

titchy Thu 02-Jun-16 22:19:27

No nyvae - if they decide they can admit two more, and there are three appealing, then stage 2 will determine which of the three gets the two places.

PatriciaHolm Thu 02-Jun-16 22:37:28

No, the appeal process and the admissions criteria are entirely separate, as I said (I sit on appeals panels)

If the panel decide a school can take 2 more, and more than that are appealing, the panel will decide which 2 have the strongest cases.

If they decide the school can take 3 by only 2 are appealing, then both get in immediately, but the other "spare" place is not given to anyone. There is no impact on the waiting list other than if the 2 given places are on it, in which case of course they come off it.

IAmAPaleontologist Thu 02-Jun-16 22:37:45

People from the waiting list would be given places if people offered a place declined. With the appeals if you get a place on appeal then it is for you, based on your evidence. Ours is a VA school so doesn't follow ectothermic the same procedures as the other lea schools but at appeal the independent panel ask the head if there is any reason why they cannot admit the child. If head says no then you are in. If head says yes then they give their reason, you then give your reasons for wanting a place and then the panel will go away and consider it. If there are a fair few appeals then it can take a few days to get an answer as all appeals will be considered and if they can only go to a certain number then they will prioritise based on the evidence given. In dd's year there were lots of appeals and they had to turn some down. We don't have the class size issue though.

PatriciaHolm Thu 02-Jun-16 22:43:46

By admissions criteria I meant waiting list! Sorry.

PatriciaHolm Thu 02-Jun-16 22:44:10

By admissions criteria I meant waiting list! Sorry.

ShowOfHands Thu 02-Jun-16 23:23:26

Ours is VA too. They do the same. The head and governors are asked first with the opportunity for questions from the panel and parents. The appeal can be upheld at this point. If not or if there are more families than places, you move to individual cases.

PatriciaHolm Thu 02-Jun-16 23:24:57

That's the way all appeals work, VA or not.

PatriciaHolm Fri 03-Jun-16 07:21:02

To be clear - in all appeals, the admissions authority presents their case not to admit first. In the case of VA schools, the school is the admissions authority; in the case of normal maintained schools, it's the LA. If prejudice is proven, then the individual appeals go on.

prh47bridge Fri 03-Jun-16 08:24:54

To expand a little on PatriciaHolm's posts...

At the first stage the appeal panel decide if the school can admit additional pupils without prejudice. If they decide that the school can handle, say, five additional pupils and there are only four appeals all the appeals will be successful. Even though the panel think the school can still handle one more pupil no-one will be admitted from the waiting list.

Sticking to my scenario, if there are more than five appeals the panel move on to the next stage. They must admit at least five pupils. They must not use the admissions criteria to determine who to admit. That is specifically prohibited by the Appeals Code. Instead they must compare the cases and admit the five with the strongest case. They must then look at the sixth strongest case and decide if that is strong enough to overcome the prejudice to the school. If it is that child will also be admitted and they will need to look at the seventh strongest case.

ShowOfHands Fri 03-Jun-16 08:51:11

Thanks all smile

Thinking about the appeal has become my full-time job. Dreaming about it. Panicking about it. grin

ShowOfHands Fri 03-Jun-16 08:52:36

You've all been so helpful. Clear, concise and honest.

I've seen it year after year. You're tireless and excellent.

IAmAPaleontologist Fri 03-Jun-16 08:55:22

I'll be thinking lots of positive thoughts for you. Been there 3 times, it is so hard. Really hope you get the outcome you want.

ShowOfHands Fri 03-Jun-16 09:00:28

Three times?! You're a giant amongst women. Are DD and the DSs at school together?

ShowOfHands Fri 03-Jun-16 09:01:21

Appeal isn't till July. His allocated school's settling in sessions are this month.

RafaIsTheKingOfClay Fri 03-Jun-16 10:34:46

So if you get a rejection from a school where the appeal won't be an ics one, then you'd be better off appealing whether you think you have a case or not. Just sitting on the waiting list would disadvantage you if someone else managed to prove no prejudice to the school.

RafaIsTheKingOfClay Fri 03-Jun-16 10:36:35

Really should preview before posting. That was supposed to be a question rather than a statement of fact.

ShowOfHands Fri 03-Jun-16 11:06:23

I think so yes.

I'm not sure what happens with natural movement after successful ICS appeals. Presumably, the child is an excepted child so if the class is 31 in number and one moves away, they revert back to 30 without admitting from the waiting list? The extra space is only for the excepted child and doesn't filter down should children leave the class?

The head was very clear from day one of offers being sent out that appealing is always the best course of action. I wasn't going to because it felt insurmountable but the head and admissions both said that even if the odds are against you, there is nothing to lose and as far as I could tell, not appealing might have resulted in the class going above PAN and us still being on a waiting list with an even smaller chance of a place cropping up over time.

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