Does it sound like i should take DS out of school?

[RudeElf]

And home educate?

For background, this is most recent thread i posted about him http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/primary/2552334-6yo-spent-the-day-under-coats-in-school here

Things at home have been really good. He very rarely loses temper and i can bring him back round/calm him within seconds.

However i had parent teacher meeting yesterday and tbh i'm just gutted. Teacher says nothing has changed. He is spending lots of time in the bathroom or cloakroom. She says she initially tried to bring him back to classroom but she no longer tries as it ends up in a confrontation and battle of wills between her and DS. So she doesnt try. He is missing so much classwork because of this. He is on target for his numeracy but he is doing the year below work for literacy. He regularly refuses to co-operate with teacher/classroom assistant. He will start some set tasks and then suddenly refuse to do anymore and go off and play. (He does homework every night with me no problem) he was off sick yesterday and monday and she said the atmosphere in the classroom was so different. No-one was walking on eggshells afraid of setting him off and the children werent flinching incase he hurt them sad she did say the incidents of violence have really dropped but they are still occurring. (These are recorded in his daily book so i know they have reduced but still happening) if there is no change in april he will be referred to educational psychologist. (I dont know why this hasnt been done sooner. Issues have been going on since p1 and he is now p3) i have asked for him to be re-referred to the family support hub for the behavioural therapist sessions. These were happening weekly since july but are limited with how many sessions can be given so ended a few weeks ago. Therapist advised me to re-refer. I have also applied through GP for referral to paediatrician for assessment of ADHD.

I am worried that DS will not be allowed/able to progress to P4 in september and will have to remain back a year with this teacher who, honestly, i think hasnt a clue what to do with him. The teacher he would be going to in P4 (unless they change them around again!) taught him for p2 and she was fantastic, he made real progress with her but that all went to pot when he started P3. I really think it would be detrimental for DS to be with this current teacher for another year. But i think that right now it looks like he wont be capable of P4 in september. I am working really hard with him at home with reading and writing and at home he is great, he loves it but at school he is unco-operative.

I am starting to think i should take him out of school and homeschool. If even for a year or two to bring him to a level where he can manage at the right level for his age and then he can go back to school. Is that stupid? Would i be messing him up even more by taking him away from his friends? Would he think he was being punished for being bold or not smart enough? He already knows he is doing the P2 work in school.

Sorry if this is all a ramble.

[RudeElf]

here

Sorry, proper link

[TeaTowelQueen]

Hi, I'm not an educationalist or expert but I do know a few people who homeschool - why don't you get in touch with your local group and see what support there is locally and whether you and your DS would enjoy it? It strikes me that there would be less pressure on your DS in a home school setting.

I am a school governor and if this was my school I would hope that you would be able to speak to the inclusion co-ordinator and/or have a full conference about what is best for your DS as the current situation is not acceptable, your DS is not thriving in any way so something has to change for him. He sounds lovely and bright, he just needs the right environment, whether that's in or out of the school system right now.

I expect proper experts will be along shortly! Stay strong and hope you can work this out for him

[RudeElf]

Yes i have requested a join on my local home educating group a couple of days ago, i'm just waiting to be accepted to ask about local support etc. I've been soing lots of reading on it and my instinct is telling me it will be better for him but i also worry about what message it sends to him (that he is too stupid for school?) and also (selfishly) the impact on me. I will have to give up work, as a lone parent it will mean working evenings at home somehow as there is no other income.

I was thinking about giving it until the end of this school year (june) and seeing where we stand then. I dont know if that is just delaying the inevitable or sensible. It would also give me time to get sorted wrt working from home.

[user789653241]

I don't have any good advice, but my dear friend is going through similar situation. I really hope it works out for you and your ds.

[RudeElf]

Thanks irvine. I just feel very lost with it all.

[IsItMeOr]

RudeElf I remember your earlier thread and could have sworn I posted, but apparently not.

Remind me, have you requested a statutory assessment of your DS's needs?

Absolutely no point in the school waiting until April to get the EP in, this is a crisis.

Does your son have any health diagnosis?

From a very quick glance at the SENAC website, the system looks reasonably similar to the English one, in that you are entitled to request an assessment.

I feel angry for you and your son. The school are blaming your son for their/the system's failure to provide him with an appropriately accessible education.

I am finding going through the process tough with our DS, and he has had loads more support than your DS.

Have you tried posting on the special needs chat or education boards, as there are many wise posters over there, and may well be somebody with NI experience.

[momtothree]

I work in a school and can picture your child - have met a few - constant wanting one to one attention and will avoid a situation where they have to share - it maybe confidence issues - have you looked at that?

Have you been invited into class to see for yourself? Could you do that? All classes should have an open door policy!

[RudeElf]

have you requested a statutory assessment of your DS's needs

I dont think so. Is it something i have to request of would the school have done this? He is on an IEP for two years now and was referred to the behavioural therapist through A.S.C.E.T (cant remember what that stands for)

Does your son have any health diagnosis?

No, i have sent off the forms for assessment for ADHD and am awaiting an appointment. I have been told it takes several months?

I am feeling i need to email the HT and request and appointment with her and the class teacher. However other than what you just mentioned i have no idea what i need to be asking them to do.

I will try the SN chat board thanks.

[RudeElf]

it maybe confidence issues - have you looked at that?

Yes the behavioural therapist is quite certain that DS has abandonment issues from his father not being present in his life (on and off) from he was a baby. This is an ongoing issue. I have tried to engage with my exp but he doesnt want to know. He thinks DS is just naughty and i need to be hard on him.

[RudeElf]

No i havent been invited to the class. I could ask that when i discuss with the HT. Would my bejng present affect DS behaviour though?

[Sallyhasleftthebuilding]

Possible it's different with mom in, but you could look at triggers - is one being mean - is his group not on Lego today? Is it loud disruptive - is it hot - can he play?

I found some kids find it hard not to get their own way so went into a strop - or they felt they were naughty - when they weren't but would take any slight personally -

Example - time for a story - DS please tidy up its story time - and they think it's just them they has to stop and tidy up - so personal IYSWIM

[Sallyhasleftthebuilding]

Another example last week girl was breaking school rules - I spoke to her to stop and she screamed at the boy "it's all your fault you made me" he ran and hid. He was upset and crying because he thought he was in trouble with me.

I explained he wasn't and the girl made her own choices etc ... And he was fine - but he often runs and hides when he thinks he's in trouble - he also assumes that adults know everything!! But if he can't explain what happens we can't deal with it or reassure them -

[FATEdestiny]

Would my bejng present affect DS behaviour though?

Yes, it almost certainly would. However at least you will get some sense of how things are at school for him. It won't be a 'fly on the wall' view into his behaviour at school because even if you stay detached and separate from him, your presence in the classroom will change the dynamics. But it could still be helpful.

If you are available, could you offer to volunteer in the classroom for a few hours a week? Your presence will be less noticeable to him if it is every week and not a novelty. You could do things like putting up displays, laminating or cutting stuff out - that kinds of things.

As well as giving some help to the teacher (and forming a better relationship with her), you will get t better understand the dynamics of the classroom and the behaviour as they interact with your son. If possible, this is a great way to get some insight.

[IsItMeOr]

You should know if the school had applied for a statutory assessment - if relevant needs were identified that would lead to a statement of the support DS needed to meet them.

His behaviour suggests a lot of anxiety. For DS, that comes from his ASD, but it could have many, many causes.

Do you have any problems with him at home/other settings, or is it only school? How is he with other kids outside school?

[RudeElf]

Yes i can offer to go in weekly and volunteer so will suggest that too.

But if he can't explain what happens we can't deal with it or reassure them

This is a real problem for him. He really struggles to identify his feelings and shuts down when asked about them. The therapist reall struggled to get him to open up and any attempts to talk about his anger or why he behaves as he does were shut down. He would either say "i'm not talking about this" or he would just walk away and play with something else. It really has to be led by him and i know this makes it really hard in a classroom situation as nobody has time to coax out of him what the issue is.

[RudeElf]

Do you have any problems with him at home/other settings, or is it only school? How is he with other kids outside school?

Yes there are problems at home too. Much much better in the last couple of months but definitely still there if i slip up on how to handle him.

He has speech problems and was seeing SALT from age 4 until a few weeks ago when they discharged him. He was late to talk and began sure start speech therapy aged two then was referred again in nursery school and it began weekly sessions in P1.

He also has not fully toilet trained. Pees are fine but he still soils. Have been to GP and prescribed movicol as GP thought maybe constipation. DS wont take the movicol though so we're just carrying on with encouragement and reminding him to go to the toilet. Sometimes he will go in the toilet. Mostly he Doesnt.

He went missing from the house at the end of November. Let himself out before the rest of us were even awake. Had dressed himself and taken money from my purse and tried to walk into town. A stranger found him, police brought him home and SS involved. He then did it a week later from school. Walked out of school and headed into town. SS closed the file as they had no concerns about my safeguarding and said we didnt meet their threshold for support.

[IsItMeOr]

But if he can't explain what happens we can't deal with it or reassure them

This is a real problem for him. He really struggles to identify his feelings and shuts down when asked about them.

This is DS, and classic for people with ASD. When he has lost it, sometimes I think he has no recollection of what he did, or why.

We at home, and the staff at school, have to take a good look at what happened before the incident and come up with our best hypothesis for what caused it. Then think about what we could do differently based on that hypothesis. If that works, fab. If not, we move onto the next best hypothesis.

[RudeElf]

sometimes I think he has no recollection of what he did, or why.

Yes! So so often i will ask DS why he did X and he is genuinely confused and doesnt remember doing it and doesnt know why. I ask if he was sad or angry and he says he doesnt know. I know when he is lying and on these occasions he really isnt.

[ricketytickety]

If he spends much of his time hiding then he needs to see an educational psychologist. There is no point in waiting until april - nothing magical is going to happen between now and then.

Have a meeting with the school senco (special ed needs coordinator - will be one of the teachers) and get the referral he needs. Once he's seen then you can discuss options after that. The school/your son/you need an assessment and strategies for him before any change can happen.

It sounds to me like he dislikes being surrounded by people, but it could also be work avoidance. This could be due to attachment issues as you say, or a neurological difference. The ed psych will have better understanding, but they need all the info from you and the school about triggers, behavours etc.

[RudeElf]

His teacher just repeats over and over that there was "no trigger". I disagree. I think there is just no trigger that she noticed or can identify but there will have been a trigger from DS' point of view.

[RudeElf]

Thanks rickety. I agree. It cant wait til april. I will email the HT today and ask that this happens ASAP.

[Sallyhasleftthebuilding]

Yes it is!! This is why it's frustrating for the teacher.

Another example - I watched boy put a game away - he was trying really hard but was slow - girl came over and took over to be quicker - he ran out of the class - I played dumb and asked what the problem was - because he thought he was naughty he wasn't going to "admit" what had happened - he would now also be in trouble for leaving the class and he knew this so it would escalate - he hadn't done anything wrong but couldn't explain to me what had happened - if that makes sense!

• I quite often watched him - and just saying - your not in trouble would calm him down - even if he was really - but he was a nice kid -

He also hit out - I personally don't believe many kids hit for no reason - something started it - but again he was in trouble for hitting - and felt it was all his fault - so wouldn't admit to what had happened - so nothing could be sorted

[IsItMeOr]

Cross-posted with your last update.

Oh my lovely, that must have been terrifying when he let himself out - although I'm guessing he's about 8 (not sure what P3 equates to!).

We always deadlock the doors when we go to bed and put the keys where DS can't reach them, as I would not put this past DS.

Have you asked the GP for a referral for a general health assessment? It's just that there are a number of things you have mentioned which would probably mean that it's worth looking at a wider group of conditions than ADHD.

Did SALT ever give any diagnosis of what the issue was/where he has problems?

We have a lego-based reward system with DS to get through the things we need to at home, including for drinks as DS can be prone to constipation. Touch wood, that seems to have upped his liquids intake and the problem seems to be sorted.

For DS, we have an A4 whiteboard that we write out the sequence of things to do, say in the evening after school. The tip we have been given is to mix in plenty of short rewards (e.g. screen time, which DS loves) to break up the chores.

[cestlavielife]

Don't wait for April get urgent assessment now. Even if you decide home ed you need to know what the underlying issues are.

Are you in Scotland ? Refer to the relevant sen code of practice.

[NewLife4Me]

Without a doubt, mine would be at home already.
School doesn't suit all children and you can meet his needs far better at home by the sounds of it.
My ds was like this and never settled at school, I wish I'd known about H.ed all those years ago.
He never knew why he had done or said something, eventually at 17, just weeks before leaving school we had a diagnosis of Aspergers.
Poor lad was completely failed by school and never met his potential.
They'd call him naughty when younger, send out of class, threaten to expel, put in isolation, detentions etc. All punishment but no support, there ought to be laws against how they treated him.
Recently found out this is quite normal and most schools do nothing, there isn't enough funding.