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Primary education

Really fussy marking with otherwise good work

128 replies

BinkyandFlip · 11/10/2015 13:50

I'm not sure how to manage this. Ds is in Y4 and is pretty good at school work, not struggling particularly, but his teachers seem to be picking him up on every little tiny thing in his work.

For example we did some comprehension last weekend, together, which wasn't actually comprehension - there was a paragraph about caring for dogs, but the questions were not directly from the text therefore it was more about dog-related general knowledge or common sense I suppose.

Anyway we answered the questions as best we could and he wrote the answers. First off he's being told to do full sentences instead of just answering the question, which is printed alongside anyway, but that's Ok, I understand it.
Then he is being pulled up on the use of 'because', as in '...because dogs need to eat meat...' and asked to find another word instead? As?

There is one question which asks what would happen if you forgot to feed your dog.

He didn't know what was expected and so he wrote 'It would starve to death'. This was met with 'Why?'

Hmm

Neither ds nor I understands what his teacher wants him to put for this. It seems totally bonkers, very obvious, nothing to do with comprehension and really for a child who has never owned a dog, I'm not sure how he's meant to know where to get a marrow bone from, or why you need to change the water every day.

None of this is explained in the paragraph.

Can anyone help?

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spanieleyes · 11/10/2015 14:00
  1. Children are encouraged to answer in full sentences as they are expected to do so in the rest of their writing, it is encouraging good habits.
  2. Because can be an overused connective! He is being asked to use a wider variety to improve his writing. So he could use since ( Since dogs need to eat meat, .....) as, however etc depending on the requirements of the question.
  3. The "why" is encouraging him to extend his answers with reasons. "The dog would starve to death as animals need to eat and drink to stay healthy"

    The teacher might be picky. Or she might be required to maintain a dialogue with the child through her marking ( a current "fad" in some schools-triple marking is often required!!)
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BinkyandFlip · 11/10/2015 14:06

Thank you for explaining all that. I kind of get it but it seems bizarre to need such a lengthy reply to what is a very obvious question. I thought of telling him to put 'The dog would starve to death and the RSPCA would prosecute my parents' but that seemed inappropriate somehow Grin

I wish they would give him questions he is equipped to answer, ie stemming from the paragraph they have supplied, not from his general knowledge, and secondly that they would be a bit more encouraging toa child who tries hard, hands it in every week and gets most of ths spelling and punctuation right.

Maybe I'm just bitter but I feel for him and he is a perfectionist already.

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Laura7010 · 11/10/2015 14:12

Teachers are made to set targets in their marking, even if a kids work is brilliant. They are checked on it. Also as pp said the teacher is encouraging your child to expand and get better.

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GloriaHotcakes · 11/10/2015 14:15

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Lurkedforever1 · 11/10/2015 14:23

It depends on the childs ability really, tbh if they usually work at the required standard I would see it as a good thing the teacher is still offering and wanting improvement. Dd is in y7, and just recently she wrote a short essay that is easily above required standards in terms of her future targets. Both she and I were delighted the teacher still found time to offer constructive criticism and improvement, rather than just marking it as good etc.

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BinkyandFlip · 11/10/2015 14:25

Yes in a way I am pleased but she isn't explaining clearly enough to him what is expected.

If she did that it would be easy for him, but she is effectively making him guess and penalising him for not knowing what she means.

I think that's a bit unfair.

I know it isn't the end of the world but surely stretching a child is about explaining what you want them to do and allowing them a shot at getting it right - not complaining when they can't see that they have even missed anything?

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BinkyandFlip · 11/10/2015 14:27

Sorry not sure that was clear; what I mean is, he could easily have got this right if he had known what was expected.

But he didn't, and I think she needs to sit down with him and give him an example, or something.

Also even if she did, it would still be really easy for him. Maybe I just want her to stretch him properly, ie with harder work - not just by taking away the instructions and making him guess what he has to do.

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charis3 · 11/10/2015 14:28

fair or unfair to the child doesn't come in to it. Teachers have to mark like this because a couple of power crazed total morons in ofsted sat round in an office and decided, on the basis of absolutly no grounds what so ever, that this is what they were going to impose, and everyone had to fll in line OR ELSE.

Like most of the crap from ofsted, pointless, meaningless and actively anti-education.

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BinkyandFlip · 11/10/2015 14:30

Charis, what do you mean by 'like this'? Is there a particular protocol?

I have to say I don't think it is stretching him, only confusing him and feels formulaic rather than like good teaching should feel.

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museumum · 11/10/2015 14:31

IT sounds like the other pushers on here are saying that teachers always have to give suggestions for improvement in each bit of work. Is this true? Can they never say "good, well done"?
Do the kids understand this?
I know many children who would be very disheartened if their work was never "good enough".

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BinkyandFlip · 11/10/2015 14:33

My children certainly don't understand it and yes, it is disheartening esp for a child with ASD who struggles to feel adequate in most ways. Being good at his work is all he has got tbh.

I didnt realise they had to do this.

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PotteringAlong · 11/10/2015 14:34

We do have to give targets for improvement on every bit of work in my school. No to do so could lead to competency proceedings.

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GloriaHotcakes · 11/10/2015 14:35

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

cruikshank · 11/10/2015 14:35

Well, the teacher isn't complaining, are they? They're asking him to expand on his answer. I think therefore that the 'why' is fair enough.

I am with you on the 'choose another word than 'because' ' thing though. This is actually really starting to boil my piss since it became a feature of ks2 criteria. It's just such a mechanistic, arbitrary, writing-by-numbers load of absolute total bollocks . Yes, of course, children should expand their vocabulary. Yes, of course, words should be chosen and used for the impact they have. However,you do not get to that desired goal by quizzing nine year-olds about supposed synonyms (the choice between which is restrictive anyway) and telling them what to write. How you get there is a long game involving exposure to lots and lots of writing, of all kinds of different styles and genres, and using that balanced education to stimulate discussion and allow people to go off at their own free tangents before finding what works for them. Angry

It is, to put it bluntly, a bag of shite.

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charis3 · 11/10/2015 14:37

no, you can never ever say a child has done anything well enough, you always have to set a target, and record the target, the date set, the date it is to be reassessed, and then record when it is done.

Binky, when I say " like this" yes, the teacher has to tell him how to extend, and write more, it doesn't matter what he has written, he will most likely be expected to respond to the comments in writing, then get a further comment on his comments, this is what is meant by triple marking, and it is compulsory, for a certain percentage of work, identified in advance, sounds like this dog work was one such piece.

Yes it is formulaic, and no it makes no educational sense what so ever, but you could say that about 99% of what comes from ofsted.

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BinkyandFlip · 11/10/2015 15:02

What do you mean by 'Two stars and a wish?'

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spanieleyes · 11/10/2015 15:04

Two things you like and 1 thing to improve.
In my school, the child has to use 1 star and a wish independently, I have to comment on their choices and then use 2 stars and a wish myself.

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BinkyandFlip · 11/10/2015 15:06

Thank you.

I don't know; he hates school at the moment and wants to be HEd again and tbh I'm starting to consider it.

Thanks for all the comments, it helps to know where it all comes from.

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charis3 · 11/10/2015 15:08

"two stars and a wish" is a piece of pure evil and should become a criminal offence.

It has resulted in thousands of teenagers who cannot accept a single piece of praise or encouragement at face value EVER EVER EVER, as they automatically assume it is part of the "two stars" leading up to some crushing piece of criticism.

I expect this exceptionally nasty piece of manipulation will have left countless thousands of people with life long low self esteem and trust issues.

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mrz · 11/10/2015 15:38

Of course a teacher can say a child has done good work

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Lurkedforever1 · 11/10/2015 16:07

Having read how it's disheartening him, then yes I don't think offering criticism to that level is constructive. Improvement is all well and good but not at the cost of destroying their confidence or putting them off school at primary age.

Also haven't a clue what ofsteds marking rules are, but I assumed criticism would be offered in the same way it should in many environments. i.e when possible a negative should follow a positive, rather than be offered first or as a stand alone. Whereas a positive can be offered alone.

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Snossidge · 11/10/2015 16:15

It doesn't sound to be like the teacher is being overly harsh or fussy - unless he has but a cross by everything and said "wrong"? Both the things you mentioned were just things that could be improved.

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jelliebelly · 11/10/2015 16:21

My da is in y5 in an independent school and those sound like the kind of comments he might get too. The teacher isn't telling him it's wrong , they are telling him how to make it even better - surely this is a way of stretching them. If they got glowing praise every time they got the answer they'd have nothing to improve on.

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Snossidge · 11/10/2015 16:21

Maybe if he is a perfectionist you need to explain to him that no piece of writing is ever going to be perfect, there will always be ways to do better and the whole point of the teaching marking it is to show ways it can be improved.

It sounds a bit like you wanted the questions to say "answer this question in 25 words using "because" only once". The question is never going to tell him exactly what to do to that extent, but using his previous knowledge of answering these type of questions and having feedback on what to improve on then surely he learns how to produce the best answer he can?

Did the teacher really say nothing positive at all?

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jelliebelly · 11/10/2015 16:23

English isn't like maths where the answer is always right or wrong. It can always be improved on - surely it is less about the actual answer and more about how it's written iyswim

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