Whole class punishments

[Posey]

Dd has just started Y5. She is with the same kids as last year, a mainly really nice class but with 4 or 5 pretty tricky boys. Anyway their new teacher, who is new to the school, regularly punishes the whole class when these boys are disruptive, which they are now really fed up with. She is keeping them in at breaks, part of lunchtime, today they were 15 minutes late out of school.
These boys really don't care if the whole class is punished, but the rest of them are really fed up, losing their enthusiasm as all the teacher seems to be doing is battling to keep control of the few.
Do you think I should speak up?

[SSSandy]

Yes of course. The question is how to best tackle it, isn't it?

[Posey]

Exactly. Don't really feel like talking to teacher about it. However we have a meet the teacher meeting tomorrow, where they tell us what they're going to be doing this year etc. It may come up then.
Or I could talk to the head who I "know" reasonably well as I do a lot of stuff for the PTA. Do you think I could just express my concern that a lot of the children are losing their enthusiasm rather than complaining as such?

[noonar]

As a year 5 teacher myself i would urge you to talk to the teacher herself, rather than go to the head. going to the head should be reserved for more serious / delicate issues and it can make a teacher feel undermined if they are 'bypassed'. also, the teacher can then explain her actions to you in person.

children have a keen sense of fairness, and i'm sure that the teacher is aware of this. i don't often use this approach myself, but occasionally, with a new class, it is one way to develop a sense of collective responsibility for behaviour in class. my year 6 colleague does this alot. i don't really agree with it, but understand the reasons for it.

[Posey]

Thanks noonar. I know that if many of the children did something that caused the whole class to be punished, they would feel totally bad and most likely they wouldn't reoffend. These boys really don't care.
How would you like to be approached if it were you? Its nice to hear from the other side! And I'm certainly not one to keep running in with complaints about the way they teach/discipline etc. Thats probably why I'm finding it tricky.
And poor dd's friend is going to have an ulcer if they keep getting out late as he panics that they'll be late to pick up his brother

[noonar]

posey, it's nice that you are thinking so carefully about how to handle the situation. it's always nice if parents come and see you with an open mind, as the children's interpretation of events can be a little skewed sometimes. maybe just say that your daughter has been unsure why she has been kept in so many times, as she's tried hard to make a good start to the term. that should give her a chance to explain.

i can just see myself saying to a class "if you are thinking 'this isn't fair' then you're right. it isn't. but then it isn't fair that a small number of you repeatedly prevent the others from learning. the sooner you understand that the, the better." not exactly leading by example, but desperate times....

as she's new. she's also probably trying to establish herself as 'no nonsense'!!

[frogs]

We had this a lot with dd1, who was part of a group of higher-achieving girls in a class with a lot of lower-achieving and/or disruptive kids (also an inner-London primary school).

I know it's not really a solution, but you will probably find that the teacher will give up on these tactics quite quickly because (a) it doesn't work and (b) it seriously antagonises the well-behaved kids that she needs to keep onside. We used to find that a new teacher would go in heavy at the beginning of each year, causing howls of outrage from children and parents by depriving the whole class of playtime/treats because of the behaviour of the few. After a few weeks they'd invariably change tactic (or throw in the towel completely, but that's another story).

If you give it a few weeks it'll probably blow over by itself, but there's no reason you shouldn't help the teacher along by saying something along the lines of, "I just thought you might like to know that dd is really happy in your class but is feeling rather frustrated because... blah blah", just in case the she is spectacularly dim and hasn't figured out already that her tactics ain't working.

[Posey]

Frogs - that sounds so familiar.
Thanks both!
Dd really doesn't like her. Its not even that she's strict. She seems inneffectually (?) strict.
Sorry, its just so unusual for dd to be so negative, about her teacher, school, work, the lot.

[TitianRed]

Good luck, Posey, with whatever you decide to do but please, please, speak to the teacher herself first. It is so unbelievably demoralising when parents go over your head. I speak from experience - one parent's personal vendetta against me last year almost sent me into a breakdown (her claims were proved false but the fact that the Head even considered her word over mine made me feel belittled and untrusted. I will not lie but was accused of this and it has eroded my faith in him as a decent boss).

[AngelaChill]

I think you have to support the teacher, if your DD sees that you back the children not the school you're setting yourself up for problems IMO.
Can your DD and the other "Good" children not have a word with these boys and telling to behave ? That's what I would have done in yr 5