Possible appeal after application

(17 Posts)
mummy123456 Thu 01-May-14 16:27:59

Hi - I'm just looking for some advice on primary appeals as I expect I am going to have to do one! We are applying late for a reception place - just doing the forms now. We are moving and the new LEA will not accept our application until we are physically living at the address. So our application will be late and I expect our closest school will be full. I guess we will be on the waiting list and fingers crossed a place comes up but I just wondered if in my application (I haven't done it yet). I could anticipate the appeal and include information on why this is the school my child needs. I understand from these very useful posts that I have to prove this school has activities/benefits to her that others don't and also that adding one more pupil would not be as detrimental to the school as it would be to her not going there. I'm thinking of missing out on local friends and I'm looking at the curriculum differences. Any other ideas and do you think this is worth doing with the application? Thank you!!

Zingy123 Thu 01-May-14 16:35:00

No they don't take any notice of what's on the form. You will be offered whichever school place is left. When it comes to appeal for another school you can use your arguments then. Bear in mind people who didn't get that school now will be appealing and will most likely be heard first.

prh47bridge Thu 01-May-14 16:39:00

There is no point putting this stuff on the application form. No-one will pay any attention to it at all.

If this is an infant class size appeal proving the school has activities that are relevant to your daughter won't help. You should only win if you can show that a mistake has been made that has cost you a place. Unfortunately that is very unlikely for a late application like this.

If it is not an infant class size appeal these arguments can win an appeal. So the central question is whether or not it will be an ICS case. Do you know the PAN (published admission number) for the school? That is usually a good indicator as to whether or not it will be an ICS case.

mummy123456 Thu 01-May-14 17:07:22

Thanks for this information. Why do they ask these questions on the application form if they are not considered? Is it because we are applying late do these things not matter - it is just whatever school has places?

The PAN is 60 and I know they sometimes do go over this as they have done before. I think the school will be full so it's just whether we get a place from a waiting list or if I have any reason to appeal and the school goes over it's numbers! Who decides on the grounds to appeal and what type of appeal it is?

PenguinsLoveFishFingers Thu 01-May-14 17:28:17

There is a space on the form basically for arcane legal reasons. Not because they can take into account what you write there (whether it is an on time application or a late one).

If PAN is 60 I presume that there are two classes of 30 in reception? This means that it is an infant class size appeal. By law, classes are limited to 30 in KS1. Appeals only succeed if there has been an error administering the application process and depriving you of a place - like they used the wrong measurement to your house. (Or a few, very technical categories which are highly unlikely to apply).

If the school has gone over its numbers in the past this will probably be because someone has won an appeal or one of the very technical priority categories apply (for example, if a twin was no. 60 many areas allow the other twin to be 61).

I am afraid you will be mostly reliant on the waiting list.

titchy Thu 01-May-14 17:35:56

The space is to draw attention to the child being in a specific admission category that might not otherwise be obvious - eg formerly looked after, or applying under social and medical need (if school priorities such needs) and paperwork being forwarded.

prh47bridge Thu 01-May-14 17:38:23

Why do they ask these questions on the application form

The short answer is because they are required to do so by the Admissions Code. The longer answer is that very occasionally someone will put something that shows they qualify to go into a higher admission category. An example would be mentioning a medical condition that means they need a place at this school. But most of the stuff parents put in that box is just ignored. They can't make subjective judgements on your reasons for wanting a school. They have to judge your application purely by the admission criteria.

Is it because we are applying late do these things not matter

No, they wouldn't generally matter even in the normal admission round for the reasons I've given above. But, as this is a late application, all that really matters is whether or not the school has a place available. Which admission category you are in, distance from school, etc. will only be used to determine your position on the waiting list.

The PAN is 60

That means any appeal will be infant class size so I'm afraid your chances of success are very low. You can give it a try but you need to be realistic about your chances.

I know they sometimes do go over this as they have done before

There are certain specific situations where they can go over the number. For example, if a pupil misses out on a place in the initial allocations due to a mistake they should be admitted even though the school is full. Similarly if a child gets a statement of SEN naming the school they must be admitted. There are also a number of other situations where this is allowed.

Who decides on the grounds to appeal and what type of appeal it is?

The type of appeal is determined by the size of classes in infants. If any of the classes would have 30 pupils with a single teacher if all three years were full the appeal is an infant class size case. The rules as to what grounds can be successful in an ICS case are set by the government (and haven't changed since the class size limit was introduced).

When it is not an ICS appeal you can use any grounds you want.

mummy123456 Thu 01-May-14 17:42:23

OK I understand. I guess I'm just going to have to rely on someone dropping out at the last minute. Does anyone have any experience of this? I'm just trying manage my expectations as I don't want to hope there is a place and then it doesn't become available. Her birthday is in October so we could stay on a wait list I believe until January? Is there much point or should I just start at a different school? Hard to decide I guess until I know what school they will offer and how far away it will be.

mummy123456 Thu 01-May-14 18:23:42

Sorry but can I just ask what are the exceptions to the rules on infant class sizes? I presume if no other place was available in the borough (unlikely I presume!). I don't know of anyone winning an appeal in the area - Kingston upon Thames - so I wonder why they admitted more before.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Thu 01-May-14 18:33:41

OP, if a statement named the school there wouldn't be an appeal, it would be automatic. Also if a mistake is made, some LEAs admit without appeal as it's clear they would lose (eg someone measured the distance to Manor road when the applicant lived much closer in Manor Avenue)

PenguinsLoveFishFingers Thu 01-May-14 19:15:36

No, if no other place was available in the borough it doesn't get you into your preferred school. In extreme circumstances like that you have to be found a place. But the local authority would decide which school could best accommodate an extra pupil in reception, not necessarily place you in your preferred school.

The only circumstances I am aware of where PAN can be exceeded are successful appeal, children with statements which name the school or looked after children joining outside the normal admission round or twins/multiples at the PAN boundary. But more knowledgeable people can I am sure confirm the full list.

Frikadellen Thu 01-May-14 20:22:12

When my son started reception we only decided to send him privately a week before the school year started so it was a very late pull out for us (and one very happy friend who was the one that got the space for her son that our son would have taken up) So yes it happens.

tiggytape Thu 01-May-14 22:15:07

Sorry but can I just ask what are the exceptions to the rules on infant class sizes?

- A late applicant who has a statement naming the school
- A child who was incorrectly refused a place due to an admissions error who then got the place they missed out on reinstated.
- A twin sibling of the 30th child admitted to a class
- Anyone who wins an appeal (but appeals are only won under iCS rules where a mistake cost the child a place, the admissions criteria used were not in line with the law on these or the decision is unreasonable in the legal sense of irrational eg serious cases involving child protection issues, witness protection etc)

tiggytape Thu 01-May-14 22:17:54

I presume if no other place was available in the borough (unlikely I presume!).

If there was really no place at all anywhere within a 45 minute journey by road then they would force a full school to take an extra child
The parents do not get to choose the school
The council decide which school can best cope and it is ensured that some schools don't end up with more than others. This is used in extreme cases. Normally there will be a place somewhere within a 45 minute radius or so. You can be sent out of borough too if that's the nearest schoo with a space.

Chocovore Thu 01-May-14 22:26:19

I think children of service personnel are excepted pupils too. We have a few in our school who have got in for those reasons.

prh47bridge Fri 02-May-14 00:31:39

The full list of exceptions is:

- children with a statement of SEN naming the school admitted outside the normal admissions round

- looked after or previously looked after children admitted outside the normal admissions round

- children who were originally refused a place in error and were then given the place they should have been offered

- children admitted after a successful appeal (but this cannot be used to justify winning an appeal. An appeal can only be won on the grounds Tiggytape lists)

- children moving into the area outside the normal admissions round where there is no place available within a reasonable distance (for primary schools the guidance is that a reasonable distance can be anything up to 45 minutes travelling time each way. If a child falls into this category the LA chooses the school, not the parents)

- children of service personnel admitted outside the normal admissions round

- multiple birth siblings of the 30th child admitted

- children with SEN who attend some classes at the mainstream school but are normally taught in an SEN unit or special school

efy1234 Sat 03-May-14 00:37:06

Hi, my daughter she in nursery now, but she has been refused reception class (30) for the same church school."We are attending mass and sunday school twice a month,in their school".It is been an error from us in the application form about all these information up the above, we only wrote we were going in the church because we assume they will know and not in their church. so we appeal and we are going soon to the panel with a supporting letter from the Prist.We've heard, there couple of children they're going in another school,but the school filled the spaces from the waiting list.(our house is 249 m distance from the school)So do you think, maybe, we can still have a place in this school after the appeal hearing?please help!!

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