42 in one year 2 class am I over reacting?

(42 Posts)
goodgrief54 Sat 20-Jul-13 06:55:51

My dc go to a village school rated as outstanding by ofsted who have just become an academy. I have found out that the already huge year 1 class my dd is in will expand to 42 in september with one dedicated qualified teacher.

Am i over reacting to be concerned? Does the fact they are foundation mean they can take as many children as they like? I have asked for a meeting with head and chair of governors to be arranged anything else I should do?

thanks for your help..

AlienAttack Sun 21-Jul-13 20:48:53

I'm a great believer in if something looks too absurd to be true then it probably isn't true. So OP please have a conversation with your school tomorrow and simply ask, given the KS1 class sizes rule, how is the 42 in a class planned to work? I am optimistic that you will find there is a planned split of classes or two teachers...

GobHoblin Sun 21-Jul-13 17:27:22

Thats not teaching surely but just crowd control? I would be off to the head, asking for the plan & if not satisfied would be moving school.

spanieleyes Sun 21-Jul-13 16:11:33

I've had 31 this year and 34 next but that's in a year 5/6 class ( although I once had 35 in a Reception/Yr 1/Yr 2 combined class, now that was fun confused.
42 with one teacher is definitely illegal in KS1, you need to ask the Head how she is attempting to get around the law!

mrz Sun 21-Jul-13 15:20:27

In my school 30 to one teacher (no TA) is standard in Y1-6
I have taught 36 reception children without a TA but that means limited outdoor access as you can't be everywhere

jamdonut Sun 21-Jul-13 15:11:35

42!...Crikey ! We (Class teacher and TA) had 28 in a mixed year 3/4 class this past year and thought that was way too many!!

Thankfully next year our classes will be smaller,about 22 which is much more manageable.

jamtoast12 Sat 20-Jul-13 22:22:26

Could it be that the year 3 classes are lower in number so at certain times of the day a number if the year 2 kids will rotate into year 3 (swapping over etc) so at no time would any one class have over 30?

It's still sounds madness to me. In our infants, each class has a min of one teacher and 2 ta's.

cheerfulweather Sat 20-Jul-13 20:55:25

Wow! How will they be taught? In a lecture theatre I would guess!

I wouldn't be happy either.

simpson Sat 20-Jul-13 20:52:42

I would not be happy at all.

My DD (reception) is in a class of 90 but there are 3 teachers and 3 TAs so the ratio is the same. She is at an academy btw.

lljkk Sat 20-Jul-13 20:49:11

Wow, our school has class sizes around 22-26.

tiggytape Sat 20-Jul-13 20:04:15

spudmasher - if they are getting places due to statements, LAC or FAP then the answer to your question is they have no choice.

Nobody really wants their child in a huge class but it is better than no place at all.
If they are being given a place under Fair Access Protocol for example it will mean every single school in the entire area is already full and the council has sent them there whether they want to go or not.
If they are getting sent there because a statement names the school, it means no other school apart from yours can meet their needs.

Rather than broach it with the parents individually which is a bit unfair given that most of them have no power over this at all, you'd need to speak to the governors and the local authority about why there is such a lack of provision, why your school is taking more than its fair share of unplaced children and at what stage they would rearrange classes to better manage it if possible.

Aquamildred Sat 20-Jul-13 19:39:00

I would not be happy with 42 at all, having worked in schools I do not think a teacher can meet the learning needs of 42 6 and 7 year olds academically.

spudmasher Sat 20-Jul-13 19:25:55

My school has this problem...way over subscribed but parents just keep on coming and, yes some get in...looked after, disabled parents, fair access, etc.
When I meet with them, on entry, I have to ask the question"Why on earth do you want you 6 year old in a class of 34?" They just don't get it. They still think their child is the only one/ most important one in the class...sorry, but it's just miserable for everyone.

admission Sat 20-Jul-13 19:17:38

You need to go to the school and ask the head teacher for a clear explanation of the class structure and who is teaching who in terms of classes.
If the school had 38 in the one class this year then either this was illegal or they had a very strange situation where for some reason 8 pupils were considered as what is called excepted pupils. There is a list of different reasons why they may be considered excepted.
To then be adding another 4 pupils to start in September says to me that they must be running a class with two qualified school teachers in the class. Whilst the school may have just converted to an Academy until the 1st September the LA would still be completely involved in admissions to the school and I do not know how this could happen without someone saying something.

prh47bridge Sat 20-Jul-13 11:57:47

Even 38 in Y1 with a single teacher is illegal unless 8 of them are excepted children (which means they don't count towards the infant class size limit). The only way this would be legal is if there will be at least 12 excepted children in the class come September or if they intend to have other teachers helping the dedicated teacher.

PinkSippyCup Sat 20-Jul-13 10:18:19

If I was the teacher being asked to teach that class I would be refusing/ looking for a new job! That is because I know there is no way I would be able to do my job properly with that many children.

You are not over-reacting OP. Ask for a meeting with the head to find out exactly what the plan is. This can't be right.

nipersvest Sat 20-Jul-13 10:06:21

are you sure the class will be that big?, i only ask because at my dc's school, each year group has an intake of 40, but class size remains 30. they do split classes throughout the school, eg year 5/6 is split, 1 class of 30 all yr 5, then 2 classes mixed year 5 and 6.

i find split classes work really well.

(ps, my dc's school is also outstanding at ofsted and changed to an academy last year)

TeWiSavesTheDay Sat 20-Jul-13 10:01:23

That is entirely mad and I would not be happy.

DDs year group is 42. There are two classes. (it's also a state academy)

tiggytape Sat 20-Jul-13 09:50:26

How many are in Year 3?
Do the two year groups combined total roughly 90 (i.e. could they be planning fulltime mixed classes at the legal limit for the Year 2 children)?
If not I just don't understand their plan at all - it isn't legal for them to organise things as described.

goodgrief54 Sat 20-Jul-13 09:15:55

There are 4 more children joining in sept. there are currently 38 in y 1.

From what I understand the class will be 42 with one dedicated teacher then for a couple of hours each day some of the children will be taught elsewhere, i can only assume by one of the 2 year 3 teachers.

tiggytape Sat 20-Jul-13 09:07:35

I don't know if there are laws regarding numbers for key stage 1

Yes - KS1 is the only age group that the laws apply to in fact. There are no laws limiting class sizes once children get to Year 3.

This school could legally have a class of 42 if they had 2 qualified fulltime teachers (a TA or other adults do not count).
Or they could organise it so, if Year 3 is smaller, they could make mixed year classes. If they do this, the classes containing the Year 2 pupils would need to be at 30 or less. This might mean they have one larger Year 3 class - which would be legal.

Llareggub Sat 20-Jul-13 09:02:21

How has the class size suddenly reached 42? What was the class size last year?

prh47bridge Sat 20-Jul-13 08:53:08

Infant class size rules apply to all schools including academies.

The school cannot legally run a single Y2 class of 42 pupils with one teacher. I think you need to find out what they mean when they talk about having one dedicated qualified teacher. If this teacher is going to run the class on their own that is illegal and the presence of a TA will not change that. If, however, there will always be other, non-dedicated, teachers (e.g. the Y3 teachers) in the class they are not breaking the law.

MaybeBentley Sat 20-Jul-13 08:00:36

I think you need to be asking the headteacher how the teaching groups will be organised. 42 Year 2s on the register and having lessons together with one teacher and TA seems wrong. 42 on the register, then splitting and going to lessons (mixed in with the year 3s if necessary), with a qualified teacher in groups of less than 30 I would be happy with.

mrz Sat 20-Jul-13 07:48:53

www.education.gov.uk/schools/leadership/typesofschools/academies/primary/faqs/a00204922/admissions-and-school-places-faqs
Do academies have to comply with the infant class size rules?

Yes. All academies with infants on roll have to comply with the infant class size rules in the same way as they would have as maintained schools. This requires them to organise classes of children of compulsory school age who are aged under 8 in classes of 30 or fewer per teacher.

goodgrief54 Sat 20-Jul-13 07:43:26

No the 42 are all y2 in one class.

They may at some points in day take some y 2 and some y3 to a different room but tbh i dont know if this is the case or how this would work until I see the head which now wont be until sept. i am also v confused...

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