Ramadan and heatwave

(70 Posts)
LongStory Mon 15-Jul-13 21:45:36

I've got a lot of respect for the muslim faith and observation of Ramadan, but I'm finding it really difficult that some of the Yr 6 children at my kids' school are fasting in this heat. I worry about dehydration. How are schools dealing with this?

Chunderella Mon 22-Jul-13 16:01:59

Incidentally, why do you spend enough time hanging around outside nightclubs at closing time to have seen people pissing themselves and vomiting? Seems an odd hangout for a Muslim, especially one who obviously thinks herself morally superior to people who don't drink alcohol.

Chunderella Mon 22-Jul-13 15:59:18

My problem here is your lack of logic fizzy, not any kind of personal offence. As I don't do any of the things you object to, there would be no reason for me to take anything personally even if you hadn't clearly identified yourself as someone totally without logic. Your response to the possibility of fasting causing any harm is to start chuntering about alcohol abuse, as though that somehow renders not drinking water for 18 hours in a heatwave risk free. Absolutely nonsensical. The irony being that in both situations, you would be risking dehydration.

And you've still yet to provide any kind of explanation for your absolutely revolting comment about people whose behaviour you disapprove of not really being people.

Fizzypop001 Mon 22-Jul-13 12:12:13

anyway im not talking anymore this is going far enough one poster said alchol in post so was comparing if you guys got issue with fasting then fair enough we all havea right to not like something that it

Fizzypop001 Mon 22-Jul-13 12:03:32

letting kids lose control of themselves is repulsive and should not be happening parents should be in control of them and look after them in a good way now turning it round can now see how muslims feel when you point out something that is not even a issue

Fizzypop001 Mon 22-Jul-13 11:57:00

well ive seen people coming out of clubs pissing themselves vomiting and sleeping on the floor unable to walk why do that to yourselves and wake up next morning not knowing what happened and people fighting as well the above post mentioned alchol so had to say what id seen clearly this is bad and fasting is an issue i clearly think their are more bigger issues that need sorting first before making fasting a issue. how many children adults etc have died as a result of drink driving and how much abuse is happening as a result of alchol in peoples homes and peoples homes being broken you just have to go on jeremy kyle show to see that and hows has fasting affected anyone its hasnt its made us remember our religion more and feel how the poor feel and youve got an issue i really think you need to look to the bad things in society rather then looking to muslims and saying bad because we are good parents to our kids and dont abuse them and remember our religion and do what we can towards it

Chunderella Mon 22-Jul-13 11:34:36

Why on earth have you assumed I think taking annual leave during Ramadan is a problem fizzypop? There is nothing, literally nothing in my post that would imply that. And secondly, what does that rant about alcohol have to do with anything at all? There are those amongst us who neither fast in work nor attend whilst hungover, you know. And even if there weren't, and literally everyone in the country was doing one or the other (hell, there are some people who even do both) it still wouldn't mean that fasting didn't make any difference to anyone's work performance.

Lastly, your comment 'and you call these people humans' is absolutely fucking repulsive at best, and outright bigotry at worst.

Fizzypop001 Mon 22-Jul-13 11:25:02

fasting is good as research has proved alchol that some kids are drinking is bad as it harms kidneys and can kill a child and even kill a adult if too much is drunken. in pregnancy you cant drink but you can fast abit if the mother wishes with a healthy baby alcHol on other hand affects baby and smoking as well which seen some mothers doing. fasting is no issue for us people we are not killing ourselves as it is good and we are in control of everything so let it be

Fizzypop001 Mon 22-Jul-13 10:55:02

why dont we just stop this trend because their is no agreement anywhere and think we are doing wrong to our kids despite the fact me and fuzzy have said that kids by parents permission can do half days and a maxof one of one two days. i really think you should turn your attention to other big issues in society.this is not one of them or we would have media and social services on our backs.

fuzzywuzzy Mon 22-Jul-13 10:53:47

No actually the children fast because they want to, they are monitored closely and there is food and water avaialble if they wish to break their fast at any point.

It's not bad for them actually, I don't see any news reports of children being rushed to hospital due to fasting.

There are no droves of children fasitng either it's a few, some do it for one day out of the entire month some fast for half days.

I'm not telling my child she will drop dead from fasting for a day either, I have told them the days are too long and hot and I'd rather they did not fast, my eldest has fasted for one day, she was fine.

Fizzypop001 Mon 22-Jul-13 10:43:34

what rubbish just given a few examples and i can go on from now till tomorrow

peachpudding Mon 22-Jul-13 10:38:28

So the children are fasting against parents and schools wishes? But why is this, they must somehow believe it is good. Shouldn't they be brought up to believe it is harmful for children to do this?

I cant think of any other adult activity that we allow children to do even though it is harmful to them and we just throw our hands up and say,oh well what can I do.

fuzzywuzzy Mon 22-Jul-13 10:32:16

I don't see a problem with taking annual leave during ramadan actually, its annual leave to be taken as you wish and as your employer approves surely?

I also didnt take last Eid off work as I had a deadline to make but this year I intend to take the final week of ramadan off including Eid.

Fizzypop001 Mon 22-Jul-13 10:29:12

well i didnt have a muslim employer and i didnt take alot of time off either i even used to work on eid and celebrate later on in the day so that does not reflect all of us infact i was praised because i always was at work and was on time and about us getting affected during morning or afternoon well my dd goes nursery and mums their come tired in afternoon around 6ish from busy days its only natural to wake up fresh as you have slept for 8 hours plus or is that still not enough for you chunderella that you wake up tired. its our natural clock to be more productive in the mornings and more tired closer to bedtime or are you wide awake at bedtime as well. school children are a good example they start school fresh and come out tired so dont know what your talking about. i seen a underperformer at my work place when i was their took lots of time off and walked out of the workplace when he was soppose to be their and he had no religion and was english so dont really no what your talking about.as we have been fasting for generations dont understand why their are issues being raised and i have seen kids as young as 12 asking for alchol why do you have to produce id then if children are not asking for it whatever what about clubs etc no underage girls their and you call these people humans cant even walk home and vomitting all over the place our society is getting worse and just a few years back when all those kids went into london set shops on fire and robbed others and police couldnt stop them those kids where as young as 11. most kids in islam do not fast and its down to parents if they listen to their kids request or not so im sure we are a good judge whether they should or not

Chunderella Mon 22-Jul-13 10:13:52

I doubt there are droves slacking off. For one thing if you know you're less likely to be able to keep up the pace, you're more likely to book annual leave during Ramadan for that reason. This is what my friend at my old job did. Slacking and performance suffering are not the same thing, though. One is deliberate, the other now. And I think you need to realise that lots of us office workers don't have the good luck to have air conditioning!

fuzzywuzzy Mon 22-Jul-13 10:06:00

I actually think for those of us who work in an office its far easier makes the time go faster and its cooler (I'm in an air conditioned office).

I've not met anyone whose work has suffered for fasting, doesn't mean there wouldn't be tho. But I don't think there are droves of Muslims slacking off because they're fasting.

Chunderella Mon 22-Jul-13 09:59:55

As regards children, a quick look at the feeding board will tell us it's not that easy to force a child to eat if they don't want to! There may not be that much some parents can do.

Chunderella Mon 22-Jul-13 09:58:25

Well I've just given you lots of reasons why that wouldn't necessarily be the case fuzzywuzzy. I've also thought of another, which is that some Muslims have been disciplined, but in the current climate don't want to draw attention to themselves for fear of prejudice or worse.

fuzzywuzzy Mon 22-Jul-13 09:49:00

Peachpudding, my children attend an Islamic school the school asked that all children bring in packed lunches regardless of whether they are fasting or not.

I'm not sure what more anyone can do.

I didn't wake my girls for the pre-dawn meal and my youngest is now not speaking to me, I don't want them to fast butthey do, I may let her try the last few days if she wants on the provisio she eats when she wants to.

Most children that I know have fasted half days so eat at midday, that's quite a popular way of including children, some children will do one day out of the entire month of ramadan, on a weekend so doesn't affect school.

I did my first fast when I was seven, I remember it pretty well, it was also in summer, I fasted on a weekend and I was so so so determined to carry it thro and I did, much to everyone surprise (my mum trying to coax me to break my fast because I had fasted long enough and telling me stories to encourage me to break my fast early).

I don't know how to force a determined child not to fast.

fuzzywuzzy Mon 22-Jul-13 09:41:11

I'd think Chunderella in the current climate a lot of Muslims woudl lose their jobs.

Running your own business you perform however you want and your profits reflect that, I've a friend who is a driving instructor she has most of her students in the mornings and works till 5pm, but that's also due to childcare arrangements. she works very hard tho.

I've taken half days/full days as annual leave during ramadan and that's fine too.

Employers making adjustments is up to them, I do know that the morning and before 5pm I am at my most productive, but then I go home at five so I think I automatically shut down.

I used work as a sales girl when I was much younger (nine hours on my feet) and I remember a to of us taking our breaks during breaking fast time, none of us were reprimanded for being less productive than a normal day either and they would have reprimanded us had they caught us slacking off.

peachpudding Mon 22-Jul-13 09:40:13

What would happen to me if my child went into school hungry, told the teacher she was on a no food/water diet so she could be skinny like her mother? Then if the school contacted me I explained it was ok because she was just copying me, it was her choice and if it ever made her ill I would stop her.

Oh and then we add in the hottest day of the year, sports activities etc and the girl says I ain't drinking water it makes me look fatter, but if I faint I will think about it.

Do you think the school would say, great lets teach all the other kids about how great it is to starve/dehydrate yourself, who came up with this stupid idea of healthy school dinners anyway? Or would they consider ringing social services and reporting me for neglect?

How can anyone seriously say a child's choices are the product of free will? Do we let them copy their parents smoking or drinking and say they are choosing to do that (no one is forcing them) if it ever harms them I will ask them to stop but they like doing it because its joining in with the family. Lets teach other children at school about our great life choices!

Chunderella Mon 22-Jul-13 09:26:53

As a Muslim you certainly can't make a blanket statement about whether people's work in the morning would be affected or not fizzypop. You yourself might be alright until about 6pm, others would struggle way before that and yet more might even be fine afterwards. Humans don't all have the same levels of thirst. Nor do we all exert ourselves in the same way during the working day.

I certainly don't suggest that the work performance of all fasting Muslims would automatically be affected, but nor is it correct to say that if fasting did affect work, Muslims across the country would be losing their jobs. There are lots of reasons why this might not be the case. Some Muslims are self-employed or work for sympathetic and/or Muslim employers. If I were running a business and had a usually very good Muslim worker that I was friendly with, I'd probably cut them some slack for underperforming, so I can see how others might. Some Muslims take a lot of the time off, my colleague at my old job did this. Some might underperform slightly but not enough to trigger disciplinary proceedings. Some might underperform enough to piss off their employers but not be disciplined because the employer fears a backlash, or thinks they won't be able to get anyone else who can do the job so well, or doesn't want the hassle of a replacement. Some might be disciplined but keep it to themselves. These are all possibilities, just like the prospect that no fasting employee has ever had any kind of performance dip at all.

Fizzypop001 Mon 22-Jul-13 03:40:38

i was thinking about now rather then when i was working but broke my fast at that time around 7 to half 7 in afternoon and was fine.

Fizzypop001 Mon 22-Jul-13 03:35:20

thats great fuzzywuzzy so doesnt affect work performance then and i do agree people would be losing their jobs if they could not work especially in this recession competition for work is high so underperformance would not be accepted. when i worked a few years back and fasted i did not underperform in my job was just fine broke my fast at work but the people i worked with were happy and never suggested that my fast was affecting my work so have to agree with fuzzywuzzy.now i have children so stay at home for them but some days feel abit tired after 6pm as been busy with them and go out quite abit so only natural i guess

fuzzywuzzy Sun 21-Jul-13 23:40:24

If my performance at work was affected by fasting I'd expect to be pulled up on it.

I work in an air conditioned office and am more alert and on target whilst fasting actually.

Again if fasting affected work performance Muslims would be losing their jobs up and down the country, my dad worked in high powered corporate capacity for 40 odd years, he fasted every single Ramadan & he never once got pulled up for under performing during Ramadan, the nature of his job was such that he would have most definitely lost his job had he performed badly at any point.

Muslims have lived in the UK for many years, my grandparents lived and worked here and fasted and not one of us has ever been reprimanded for under performing at work fasting or not.

Fizzypop001 Sun 21-Jul-13 22:52:22

well to be honest i think it order pends on when that someone started work and finished work because if it was in the morning it would not really affect anyones performance at work because we wake up at 2am in the morning and eat and drink then pray. as a muslim i cansay that it would not affect work performance in the morning but after 6pm it might do

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