Child told she was "not allowed" to go to the toilet.

(189 Posts)
Offred Mon 13-May-13 18:02:40

Because of SATs, when they were doing IT, she wasn't doing SATs, she is 6. They didn't want the SATs to be disturbed by traipsing children.

DD took it literally and wee'd herself. The class laughed at her. They did not call me, put her in her PE kit with no tights/socks even though we cycle and they know this and it poured with rain/hail today. Then the TA hassled me about the importance of returning the knickers to reception tomorrow morning. I gave them short shrift as my focus was more DD's feelings, called for the teacher. The teacher said DD should have known she could ask.

That is all they plan to do about it.

What do I do?

Dd is fine but I think she should be more upset and being resigned to such a lack of empathy is a bad sign.

I am quite upset.

Offred Wed 15-May-13 12:55:33

ha ha ha! Indeed!

thanks for that loopy. I will have a look and those are good suggestions.

CinnabarRed Wed 15-May-13 12:45:26

If only she'd had her judgy pants with her, she'd have been much warmer....

wink

loopydoo Wed 15-May-13 12:23:16

And yes, they could have easily have called you and asked you to pop some clean clothes in.

loopydoo Wed 15-May-13 12:22:10

You could suggest the Next school newsletter asks for some old outgrown clothes/uniform sent in from parents to use for spares. Or schools have always done that so there's always a good selection of different sizes etc. sometimes they specifically ask for swimming costumes/tights/pants so they have what they need.

I don't think you are being over sensitive at all. My Ds was told in yr one to wait to go to the toilet so I went in and explained/told his teacher that schools are not allowed to refuse/restrict children toilet access. I diverted her to the Eric.org site which has some great info for parents and schools, in particular about the side effects of withholding facilities from children. Might be worth a look....

Offred Tue 14-May-13 19:59:17

It is a state school but voluntary aided.

People keep wilfully misreading. I am not expecting them to call me and tell me about dd having an accident, I am expecting them to call because they needed me to bring something from home. They would have managed it if dd had not brought her lunchbox or her glasses or something else necessary.

People keep attributing things to me that I have not said or done and did not think. People seen intent on changing the situation to suit their judgements. Like I said yesterday it is a good job I am not particularly sensitive. I won't apologise for coming across emotional because yesterday I was as this had been the last in a long line of things with the school and dd. Not sure why having feelings (me or dd) should personally affront teachers but it seems to be a theme.

FullOfChoc Tue 14-May-13 19:58:20

I do feel very sorry for your DD. She needs to make sure she goes to the loo before school and at breaktimes. To actually wet herself she must have been holding on for a long time. The reality is if 30 children were going to the loo willy nilly all lesson not much work would get done. Loads of children ask to go to the loo because they don't want to do maths / spellings tests/ because their friend has just gone etc. The lesson is only an hour and 15 minutes long so if she's just been to the loo she should be able to wait for next break.

She is not the only one to have done this and won't be the last. I hope she's okay. I assume she's year 1 or 2 and I think the children will forget all about it by tomorrow.

adoptmama Tue 14-May-13 19:48:34

Actually I don't think it is the teachers who come across as petty.

You seem determined to see insults - both by the school and by posters - where none are intended.

You are the one throwing rather immature comments like 'judgy pants' around at people who have done nothing that offer a different perspective on events, and disagree with your somewhat emotional interpretation of everything.

Galena Tue 14-May-13 19:48:23

So they explained and then told her how to avoid the problem in future?

Galena Tue 14-May-13 19:47:28

You are so hung up on the fact that 'there were two TAs, one teacher, one tech and two receptionists who could have called' but actually, assuming the weather changed at around 2pm, one assumes that:
The teacher, and both TAs were in class, educating children
The receptionists probably weren't aware of the situation
It really isn't the tech's job to phone parents about wet knickers

Out of interest, is it a state school or a private school? I only wonder because of the staffing... If a state school, then it's likely at least one of the TAs is for a statemented child, as most state schools don't have 2 full-time TAs in a primary classroom. Also the 2 receptionists probably are not just full-time receptionists. We had one part time receptionist and one who split her time between receptionist and bursar. We also didn't have a full time IT tech. And we had 90 children per year group, not 20.

Offred Tue 14-May-13 19:40:47

I haven't ever wittered about her wetting herself. I asked them to explain their side of what happened. They explained. They have dd a stern warning about how she "should have asked". I am not satisfied with that as a response for the reasons I have detailed previously.

Offred Tue 14-May-13 19:38:52

She would be cycling whoever picked her up. Just not with me.

I am bothered by their attitude to the whole thing not what happened. I do think they could have called to ask me to bring trousers. Track suit bottoms are not allowed in the PE kit. They allow track suit bottoms in winter terms for walking to school but not in summer because of cloakroom space and not in the pe kit.

Offred Tue 14-May-13 19:36:21

Yes they did tell her she couldn't go, three of them separately said that the tech had told the class they weren't allowed to go.

I felt them not calling me and asking me to bring something was them punishing dd for the accident because there is no reason why they couldn't have done that when there were two TAs, one teacher, one tech and two receptionists who could have called and dd's class is small (20). Her clothes would have been fine if they didn't change them and I know this because I have cycled with her in these circs before.

If you don't know about other arrangements why judgy pants with the "you don't have to cycle".

What I am learning from this thread is that actually a lot of teachers are really, really petty.

mrz Tue 14-May-13 19:27:13

"'children are not normally allowed to go to the toilet'" does the normally not tell you that they are allowed to go if necessary teacherwith?

Galena Tue 14-May-13 19:24:21

This morning it was sunny, she therefore didn't take her waterproofs. This afternoon it was hailing. You didn't take her waterproofs because she would have been fine in thick tights which would have quickly become wet and cold. She didn't have her tights on because this morning (SATs are in the morning, so it must have been this morning that the incident happened) she wet herself. Why has she not got tracksuit bottoms in her PE kit?

No matter. That is not what you are upset about. You are upset that she was told off for not asking to go to the toilet. You also mention that once it happened, and some children laughed, she then acted like a zombie and made the children laugh more? Maybe that was why the teacher was a bit short with her? Maybe the teacher saw that she was acting the fool and wondered whether the wetting herself was done more for attention than accidentally (Trust me, I've had it happen, even in Y3).

You tell us you aren't upset about the clothes - that we are simply getting hung upon them. However, you wanted them to phone you specifically to tell you that she needed different clothes. They probably didn't think about it because the weather was warm and sunny when she changed and they probably didn't think about it once the weather changed. You also said you don't always pick her up, so maybe they assumed somebody else might be picking her up and didn't realise she would be cycling.

You obviously have an issue with the school. If this is the case, then you need to have a reasonable discussion first with the the teacher, and if that is not successful then with the head. Do not go in wittering about DD wetting herself - this isn't the issue you have. The issue you have is that you feel the school is not caring about DD's feelings. Of course, they may counter that they are looking after a number of children and cannot always be aware of every change of emotion of your child. I know when I was teaching, I tried to keep my eye on all the children and how they were feeling, but many are very good at hiding their feelings and only letting it out when they get home. I may be a great teacher, but I'm not a mind reader. If a child doesn't tell me there's a problem, I can't deal with it.

Sorry this is long, but hopefully you'll read it and realise how much you are overreacting over this?

adoptmama Tue 14-May-13 19:23:27

wow I don't think I was being judgemental in suggesting you get a taxi. And fortunately I did learn to read. It was helpful for me in getting qualified up my arse to become a teacher. Heaven forbid however that I have no bloody idea what town you live in and the arrangements of the local cab hires! How unreasonable that it be suggested you - the parent - are responsible for ensuring that your child has clothes suitable for cycling in hail. You are the one who said the weather changed dramatically - tights alone would not have kept her warm and dry anyway; it is not unfair to suggest you should have taken proper waterproofs in for her. No, I don't expect you to be psychic and know they changed her into her pe kit, but I would expect you to take more than a raincoat to school once you saw what the weather was doing. I fully accept it was probably terribly unpleasant for her to go on a bike in the hail in only shorts. It also seems apparent that you will not accept the fault for this lies anywhere than with the school. Whilst they may 'preen' themselves on the fact that you cycle to school - doubtful and more likely commented upon to make your DD feel special - when you have dozens of children to look after it is not unreasonable that your journey home was not at the top of their minds all day.

Nothing you have said about the school saying your DD should have asked to go is 'punishing' your DD. The school didn't tell your DD she couldn't go to the toilet. She has lots of opportunities in the day to go. I am sure that - in all the other weeks and months she has been in the school - she has seen and heard others ask for, and be given, permission, to go to the toilet during class. She has probably asked and been given herself. It is not the schools fault either that your DD thinks the school intended she should wet herself rather than ask to go. And frankly, having taught thousands of children over the years, unless your DD has a particular learning difficulty like ASD which makes her take things very literally, it would not be normal for a 6 year old to think in that way.

Your child wet herself. Whether you want to accept it or not it IS perfectly normal in children of that age. Why would you continue to argue it is not? Your child had a perfectly normal age appropriate childhood occurance. It was no-ones fault. Often children of this age do not even realise they can need to go until it is too late, as they are so caught up in what is going on around them. You seem determined to find fault with the school and. IMO, you are over reacting in every way to what happened.

teacherwith2kids Tue 14-May-13 19:20:55

I am a little baffled by the difference between 'children are not normally allowed to go to the toilet' and 'it not being a rule'. As a child, I would have been baffled too - and I am not quite as literally minded as DS, who would definitely have interpreted 'not being allowed to go by the adult in the classroom' as 'the rule is that I am not allowed to go'.

mrz Tue 14-May-13 19:16:45

I'm glad you have realised

Offred Tue 14-May-13 19:14:08

Was it not? Oh right that's ok then... hmm

mrz Tue 14-May-13 19:12:41

except it wasn't a rule Offred ...

Offred Tue 14-May-13 19:06:40

She is utterly fine today btw. I would have forgotten about it too by now but you lot are still feeling personally affronted.

Offred Tue 14-May-13 19:05:44

"The rules" is exactly what dd said she thought she was following. Probably because the tech told the class they were not allowed to wee.

Offred Tue 14-May-13 19:03:19

Good lord people really could do with actually reading.

Dd was not upset. I am not mortified.

I was upset because of their attitude towards her/it not because she had an accident.

We have no option but to cycle actually you can't just get a taxi at school pick up time they have to be booked in advance especially when you have four children. Plus what would we do with the trike and two bikes? Wow, judgemental!

I was pissed off about the shorts because they are so precious about letting them go outside and so preening about us cycling everyday that it felt like they were punishing dd.

Also re the clothes. Children of dd's age don't have accidents in school at her school. If she had been in her uniform she would not have got cold because she hasn't previously, she did get cold this time. What do you think I should have done been psychic and known they'd changed her into her pe kit? Why couldn't they have called to ask me to bring tights/trousers?

What I expected the school to do is simply say sorry for telling the class they weren't allowed to go and talk to the tech and explain how she could have expressed herself better.

Dd believed they intended her to wee herself rather than ask because she had been told they weren't allowed.

Of course I have now explained that she should ask or simply just go rather than wee herself but this is no good if school do not reinforce which is another thing I expect them to do. Basically not give mixed messages, explain when mixed messages have been given to the giver that it isn't to be done and make sure dd knows she must wee.

Of course I would have returned the pants, I think it is v. Rude to be irritated with me about my inability to guarantee I would be able to do that by first thing the next morning.

mrz Tue 14-May-13 18:53:58

I don't think I have ever said it is a rule teacherwith ...

teacherwith2kids Tue 14-May-13 18:50:41

Mrz, for DS it had as much power as if it HAD been given to Moses on tablets of stone. He treated all school rules with the same absolutism!

adoptmama Tue 14-May-13 18:49:31

I'm sorry your little girl had an accident. My own DD1 is the same age and I would share your pain on her behalf if I were in your shoes. I have a very - very!! - clear memory of my knicker elastic breaking at about age 8 and my pants ending up round my ankles as I ran across the playground! Not my fondest memory!

However I am really not sure what you expect the school to do beyond what they have done and I think your emotions are making your over react. Your DD was not refused permission to go to the toilet - she did not ask to go and had an accident. Perhaps she didn't realise how much she needed. It is not uncommon at this age and children in Year 1 are certainly asked often enough to got at the appropriate times. I wouldn't expect the school to call me if a similar thing happened as frankly I think 'least said, soonest mended' and for them to call you would make your DD think it was a big deal when it isn't. My own DD was being quite scathing recently over a class mate who wet himself and who she thought 'should have known he needed to go' so I used it as a moment to teach her a little empathy! If your DD isn't bothered, try not to project your own sense of unhappiness that this thing happened to her, but just let her know it is perfectly normal at this age. If she is upset by the reaction of others - and as my own DD has shown, empathy and kindness are not always the first reaction of a 6 year old - then speak to the teacher and ask if she can find a way to let everyone know it is unkind to laugh at other people for things they cannot help.

And yes, it meant she was not perhaps as warmly dressed as she could have been going home, but really I do not think you can blame the school because if you had waterproof trousers and coat for her it really wouldn't have mattered much what she was wearing underneath for the cycle home.

I think you are understandably upset your DD had an accident and mortified for her that others laughed. That is perfectly normal. But I think expecting more from the school than they did is unreasonable in the circumstances. If they had refused her permission to go, then I would agree you need more from them than you got. But what exactly do you think they need to do now. Apologise - for what? Why is it wrong of them to remind you to bring the clothes back that they leant her? No tights or socks - ok, but schools do not have an unlimited supply of spare clothes, you haven't left any changes for her and were quite happy for her to cycle despite the weather, without bringing in extra, warm clothes or watherproofs yourself for the journey home. The schools job is to educate your child, not kit her out or plan her journey home. She wet her pants, not her school jumper, coat etc. So at the most they took off her pants, trousers/skirt and tights/socks and gave her t-shirt (if she was wearing a tunic) shorts and dry shoes. If the weather was so bad I would expect to take wellies, coat etc into school for my child and waterproof trousers if it was hailing/raining. A cold journey home may be unpleasant but - since you choose to cycle - it is hardly the responsibility of the school to sort it out. You could always get a taxi. Sorry, I expect that is all going to be quite annoying for you to read but I don't think the school have done anything wrong from what you have said.

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