Mumsnet Talk

learnandsay: no, I wouldn't think so. Our Infant school gives out everything from ORT to toddler books to factual ones to Usborne First/Young Reader series. They aim is to start reading together and let the child slowly take over. DD came home with some very strange books sometimes.

They now follow the usual book banding and everyone finishing with white goes to Free Reader.

DD is on turquoise and reads ORT level 7 and 8 very fluently. But she races through the text and often thinks ahead and reads what she thinks should be there instead of reading the actual word.

Maybe, but my problem is that if a book is not part of any scheme whatsoever then it's just a book. I could be missing something here, but either books are part of a scheme or they're not.

learnandsay DD's school use a mixture of reading scheme and "normal" books. Every book is levelled. Children read books at their particular level only. So they are not free readers which has the concept of being able to read entirely what they want.

(though as I said up thread even the "free readers" at DS's school are still constrained to read within a limited selection, so maybe the definition is confusing).

But the concept of levelling puts the books into a scheme, even if it's not a phonics based one. A good example of books which are not in a scheme is the books in my house.

and the children's books in your house can be levelled learnandsay they system includes many well know books and authors.

I an increasingly finding the concept of "free reader" odd. Clearly in means different things in different schools. My DTDs are Yr2 and are on Lime level books. DTD1 is also reading (slowly but surely, checking unfamiliar words as she goes and reading bits to me every so often) the first Harry Potter book. If she went to the school two of her friends go to, she'd be labelled a "free reader".

Of course they could be levelled. That's the interesting point. By simply having books and reading them my daughter gets used to reading books (not used to reading books of similar difficulty.) In fact I did start off trying to collect books of similar difficulty but I found collecting books that way too difficult and gave up. So instead I decided to just let my daughter read whatever I could get. It took a bit of practice at first but it seems to have gone alright.

Learn and say - dds school do use a phonics reading scheme which dd has now finished then they fall into the category of 'free reading' which as I understand it means she can choose any book from the free reader section or from the library with guidance.

I've still continued to read to her daily and her read the 'free reader' book to me.
What concerns me is that the scheme she is on apparently finishes at the equivalent of a turquoise book therefore should she be also reading another 'phonic scheme' book of a higher level. But when suggesting this to her teacher I was told she would have nothing to gain as she is secure in all that they cover!

Maybe you've misunderstood them, educator. mrz has said that her school still teaches some phonics in Y6. I have no idea what this involves but it does suggest that there are some things which are far more advanced than others. Perhaps your daughter's school means that they still teach phonics beyond turquoise level but they just don't do it via the reading scheme. Presumably they can do it just as well with normal books.

learnandsay the Institute of Education (IOE) University of London produce books which band reading scheme books but also many of the books we have in our homes to read to and with our children www.ioe.ac.uk/about/5826.html
www.ioe.ac.uk/about/15889.html

Very interesting, especially this:

The 'dip in literacy achievement' experienced by some children at age 7-8 may in part be due to a steep rise in text reading challenge that children encounter at this age.

I wonder what she meant.

I think phonics will come into lots of teaching throughout the day.

But dd is apparently secure in all the phonics areas covered in the schemes available and in a transition stage at the moment where she needs to get stuff to reading other books and may struggle with some 'topic' words (enjoying reading non fiction - nature) but these are the words that with time she will familiar with!

I'm not sure I'm following you, educator. Decoding and having a wide vocabulary aren't related.

I'm not a teacher but I feel dd is inconsistent therefore maybe not ready to take the next step although has managed the books quite easily that she has chosen so far.
Apparently dd is a perfectionist in class and rarely get anything wrong!! Not what I always see at home, but maybe that's down to tiredness or something.

It means the books get longer learnandsay

Yes, that's normal for coming to the end of the reading scheme. It's unusual to be on free readers in year 2 if the school have the full set of reading scheme books.
Assuming her reading ability and comprehension ability are equal and she's fluent then I wouldn't worry, just be proud.

What I mean is because she is a free reader I never assumed phonics work will have stopped.

But phonics schemed books are tailor made and the child is less likely to encounter words that were not recognisable or unfamiliar. This is the step forward she is taking I assume.

Decoding and having a wide vocabulary aren't related

So when they decode a word they haven't seen before, and they sound it out and 'click' they recognise it as a word they have used/heard when speaking...I believe you are mistaken.

It looks to me as if you're seeing being on a reading scheme and being supported while reading as being the same thing. There's no reason why they should be. Some children don't seem to progress on schemes, some children seem to be rushed through schemes, some schools don't have schemes at all. To me it seems no so much about whether the school has a scheme or not but what it does with it, or without it.

So when they decode a word they haven't seen before, and they sound it out and 'click' they recognise it as a word they have used/heard when speaking...I believe you are mistaken.

Then the word was already part of their vocabulary.

Children can decode words that they've never heard of but they can't understand them.

Mrz - I agree re length of text increasing this time last year dd looking at a long piece of text would instantly be intimidated by it, the same 'difficulty' condensed into much less quantity and she wasn't phased

If it's part of their vocabulary they will be able to understand the word when they decode it. Of course it matters FFS. I give up.

But learn and say isn't that the whole point - your phonics knowledge is good therefore you decode words you don't know, you then learn about the said word with guidance or other texts - encyclopedia/dictionary and in turn increase your vocabulary...I think this is the transition dds teacher is talking about once you are able to decode more you will also learn more/became familiar with more words. Read to learn!

But the between stage means you are sometimes reading words that you are unfamiliar with

Personally I wouldn't relate learning from reading books, reference books and dictionaries to phonics, no. Anybody can watch documentaries, visit museums, read widely and use reference books, text books and dictionaries. I did when I was growing up and I couldn't decode.