Welsh medium(172 Posts)
Anyone with any experience of welsh medium education? Come tell me your experiences! Neither DH or I speak welsh but I did gcse and I m willing to learn if we choose welsh medium for DS.
Advice and comments welcomed
The decisions might be made in Cardiff but the decisions are made by democratically elected AMs. If people living in Wales don't like the decisions then they need to get involved in politics and start influencing policy.
My only justification is I have friends and family who's concil tax and jobs are directly affected by how much money is spent on promoting The Welsh language. Also friends who have to choose whether to educate their DCs in a culture and language that isn't that if the area because of these funding choices, made in Cardiff.
Sorry, yes I do rant on this subject at the slightest excuse, probably a bit mean to the OP
Enjoy learning welsh together. Get in touch with your TWf officers if you haven't already they will help woth information on events and resources.
Pob lwc Smiling, it's going to be great fun for both of you.
Clarification not necessary smiling, you made it abundantly clear the first time.
I reckon my posts have been less sneering than some actually but hey ho, you can't please all of the people all of the time.
It's a funny old world when you're accused of sneering at something that you are a product of, and had three children in, but there we have it, I don't like everything about it and I'm going to say so if invited to.
Good luck, OP, I wish you and your son all the best with it.
Although I can't help thinking that you don't need to spend a lot of money on course material - there's loads of free stuff available online to learn Welsh!
Surely that's the nature of mumsnet, OP; loads of threads go off on a tangent. This one has been quite interesting because of it. If you haven't left already, my advice would echo that of the Scottish secondary teacher upthread; that if your child is bright, pick things up quickly and has no language difficulties, then he will be fine in Welsh medium, but if he struggles in any way, it will be an extra thing to cope with. If you want your child to be fluent in Welsh, then Welsh medium is probably the way to go, but I doubt it will really confer any real advantage in learning other languages and, even if it does, he would still have to attend the classes and put in the graft to do well in these other languages.
Do I need to be here every 5 minutes then?
Anyhow, DS is going to wm. I've filled in the forms. I've dug out my welsh course work from 2008 and I'm reading through it again. £30 worth if learning material has been delivered from amazon.
Dw I'm eisiau siarad yn rhugl
I know you won't want to hear from one of the hijackers (although to be fair you haven't posted in ages and the conversation just moved on), but I didn't see any sneering attitude from adeucalione, merely common sense.
Adeucalione - I took offence to your sneering attitude. Just clarifying.
I'm leaving this thread.
Thanks to all who answered my questions and didn't hijack to bang their own personal drum.
Oh now this is quite interesting (or maybe only to me, and I think cecily asked for this earlier too).
here are the Welsh GCSE results for 2011, broken down by subject.
And here are the same statistics for England, from mid 90s to 2012. I don't recognise the source, but it's all I could find!
Anyway, in 2011 73.7% of Welsh students doing a GCSE in French achieved grades A-C, 75.5% German, 74.1% Spanish.
In England the figures were 72.5%, 75.8% and 74.9%.
So, Welsh pupils performed better at French and worse in German and Spanish, which suggests that those children who do take a MFL do well, but not significantly better than their monolingual peers in England.
Although I guess the Welsh stats do not separate out WM from EM so maybe we're no further on...
I studied Welsh, French and German at my English medium Welsh comp. Languages were encouraged, but it was the early 90s when Welsh wasn't such a big part of the curriculum.
When I visit my sons at their English medium school Welsh is used alongside English, so the HT say "bore da plant, good morning children" and then goes on to say The Lord's Prayer in Welsh and English (it's a Catholic school) and as a result my sons are picking up quite a smattering of Welsh. The school is quite unusual though, I was out with a few of the mums today and most of the children are bilingual so welsh is a third language for them. We had a Hungarian speaker, a German speaker, Spanish and Rumanian.
Just re-read that last post. It does seem a bit rambly, sorry.
A follow on thought from wondering about relevance has made me wonder whether there is any data on the numbers of pupils taking up MFL in deprived areas versus those in wealthier areas.
What I mean is that an English pupil studying French counts in MFL stats. I was wondering whether a Welsh pupil studying English is counted in these statistics. That is all. Simply curious about how they compile the data.
I agree that it would be great to encourage trilingualism. (I could hardly disagree, I have learned 5 languages myself and have bilingual children who are likely to learn another language at school!).
Perhaps part of the problem is relevance. French may have little relevance to a child in Prestatyn (for example), who has never been to France or even met anyone from France. In my own experience, the other people who studied foreign languages alongside people tended (of course not all) to be better travelled or have motivated parents who provided them with books/ magazines/ whatever in a foreign language, or had a connection to that country. When I studied Italian, over 2 thirds of the people on my course had at least one parent or grandparent from Italy. I am not sure what this really means in terms of encouraging MFL in Wales, however!
To answer you original question. My two DS are in a Welsh Medium Primary, and my DD is in the local Cylch Meithrin, I'm English non welsh speaking and DH has some very basic Welsh. All my children are thriving in school, they have not been at a disadvantage at school because of our lack of Welsh at home, nor are they at any disadvantage in their education for learning their lessons in Welsh at school.
DD Is 3yrs and at nursery can follow basic instructions in Welsh, knows colours and numbers up to 20. And can answer very basic questions in Welsh. Obviously she does all of this at home in English.
DS2 5yrs is in reception and loves school, his English phonics are way behind his peers who are in an English school, but as I witnessed with DS1 when they start reading in English age 7, they soon catch up and are able to switch easily between the two languages.
DS1 Is 9 and has the English reading average age of 8/9yrs despite only being introduced to spelling, punctuation and english books in school at age 7. He is also now completely fluent in Welsh, enabling him to talk to people in the corner shop our Doctor and local landlady in their first language.
In the wider world, Welsh probably will not be much of an advantage to my children. If they choose to live in the area we are in, it will be of help to them. However, I feel that an additional language no matter what it is can never be a hindrance surely?!
Alex - I'm not sure what you mean. Look at the Welsh curriculum if you want to know what they mean by MFL. Do they count Welsh and English as two separate languages at GCSE? Yes. Do they want pupils in Wales to be trilingual? Yes. Are they concerned that this isn't happening? Yes.
I just wanted to be clear, because I was called anti-welsh on here yesterday, that I love Wales and all things Welsh, including the beautiful language (I am Welsh). I came on originally to suggest EM might be better for the OP, which she took objection to, and I have since become interested in why bilingual WM pupils appear to reject MFL despite, presumably, having a natural proclivity to do well.
I wholeheartedly support WM education and the preservation of the Welsh language, but it appears to have become almost unacceptable to question any aspect of it and I find that odd.
And soup I didn't read your link to Gogwatch, hate that website.
adeucalione - Do all these articles, studies, takes into account that all Welsh medium pupils effectively already have one MFL? Or are they just counting languages not spoken in the UK?
soup few here :
TES article claiming that fewer pupils in WM pupils took a MFL compared to their EM counterparts in 2008.
Estyn press release saying the same, again 2008.
Wesh Language championCeri James claims Welsh pupils have lower MFL take-up than English counterparts, with A levels down 10% in 2010.
Telegraph article stating that numbers of pupils in England choosing MFL plummeted from 80% to 40% in the 10 years to 2011 since Labour made them optional, signs of reversal since launch of English Bacc.
WJEC piece claiming that GCSE MFL continuing to fall in Wales in 2012.
Welsh Language Centre piece about plans to reverse the decline, 2012.
Dare I point out the obvious to Startail - that it is entirely possible to learn Welsh in addition to other foreign languages, whichever she considers most "useful"?
And being in Welsh medium school means that you are taught using Welsh, not that you spend hours studying it as a subject. Presumably you can then study other languages, also through the medium of Welsh if desired, or English if preferred.
soup Blimey I've read loads of stuff over the past day or so, this stuff is really interesting me. The stats comparing English and Welsh take-up of MFL at GCSE isn't all collated in one place, but read that it is 40% in England and just under 30% in Wales, with WM schools trailing EM. I'll google now and see what I can find.
My Grandmother was fluent in I believe 7 languages, she also developed Altzheimers at a young age. I'm not sure about the bilingualism/ altzheimers claims.
I do whole heartedly agree with the continued use of Welsh in schools and children being billingual/ heavily exposed to a second language, from a young age. If your brain can accept that languages have different patterns it makes it easier to go on and learn more. I'm not sure about its compulsory study through to 16, but then I would also rather children could opt for a BTec style education from 14 if they aren't academic.
I like Wales but it feels like the whole language debate is actually masking a supremacy amongst a small group of people (not all those who are Welsh first language, just a select clic of them) that is tantamount to racism. It hinders the preservation/ development/ acceptance of the language and causes divides in communities.
Startail, I find your post rather odd.
Firstly, Welsh is not a dead language. There are native speakers so by definition it's a living language.
Secondly, there are some degree programmes which can be taught partly or entirely in Welsh - Law, IR / politics, literature, history and probably others I don't know of. There is also at least one Welsh speaking lab at my university. I would expect someone who had studied any of these subjects in both languages to have a better understanding of it and bring an interesting perspective to the discussion.
Thirdly, there are many things which are more important than university. Just because you don't need Welsh to study doesn't mean it has no value. I enjoy my job but it's not the most meaningful thing in my life. People gain meaning from all sorts of things, including engaging with their community or culture and history. By not teaching Welsh you are automatically making it almost impossible for Welsh people to do that. Even if the majority of children who learn Welsh grow up to enjoy other things, they've lost nothing by learning Welsh.
Even if you don't go on to study in Welsh, it's a massive advantage to be bilingual with any language. Being bilingual gives you a different perspective, makes it easier to learn other languages, and might reduce the risk of developing alzheimer's. I could understand why you might not want to send your dc to Welsh school if the home language is not English but if they're going to learn English either way then they've got nothing to lose from having an extra language.
All around the world it is totally normal to be multilingual with a local language, national language and international language (usually English or French). If you can already speak one of the international languages then you've got an advantage but it seems totally pointless to throw away that advantage by refusing to learn any other language. Learning another international language is not necessarily more useful than learning a local language as most literature and cultural experiences are translated between the international languages.
As an aside, do you also think it's pointless that countries with a high level of English fluency still keep their own language. Almost all Swedes speak brilliant English but it doesn't mean that Swedish has no value. What about countries which have a huge number of different local languages but most people can also speak one majority language? I think South Africa has something like 11 native languages but most South Africans speak English. Should they all also stop having their own languages?
startail children in a Welsh Medium Primary do not spend hours and hours studying a dead language. They study the same curriculum as children in English speaking schools, only difference is they learn said curriculum, in a different language
As teddybare was trying to point out, the children from Welsh medium backgrounds, were at no disadvantage in an English based lecture, because they are also taught to read and write in English!
I can not understand how you could find this a disadvantage?
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