What would you think if this was happening in your y3 child's class?

(187 Posts)
RunnersWorld Sat 09-Feb-13 15:13:18

And what, if anything, would you do?

One of the children is very disruptive, including bouts of physical and verbal violence, e.g.:

-Throwing chairs
-Swearing at the class and teacher
-Tearing up his own and others' work
-Pacing around the class when they are supposed to be working/listening
-Walking out of class meaning the teacher has to leave to bring him back
-There have also been two complaints from children/parents about him touching girls inappropriately (now has 121 at lunchtimes, so is constantly watched)

At least one from this list happens daily, once it was so extreme that the teacher had to remove the rest of the class from the room while two TA's tried to calm him. School was unable to contact anyone to collect him so he spent the rest of the day in the Head's office, as the TA basically refused to work with him. He's big for his age, strong and scary when he loses control.

My DS2 is in this class. I know all the detail because of my job, most parents of course will only have patchy stories relayed by their DC, but they all know there is a problem. To avoid drip feeding, I will also say I know that he is a very damaged child as a result of sexual abuse and currently living with a foster family. Other parents know nothing of this of course.

I am interested in an opinion from the POV of the parents who know nothing of his background, please.

thesecretmusicteacher Sat 09-Feb-13 23:08:19

I think the best thing the other parents can do is befriend and support the boy's mum. It is hard enough to make progress in these situations without the mum having to dread being in the playground.

And minimising the mum's isolation won't stop the boy being moved to a different school if there is a good argument for that.

I have done this and it did make some difference.

lougle Sat 09-Feb-13 23:11:50

VonHerBurton, I think that's irrelevant, tbh. What this thread has done is put that seed of doubt in the minds of many parents who have children with SN. The doubt that in actual fact, their child's distress is the subject of juicy gossip.

Even if the OP is a fosterer, she is not allowed to share details of his childhood circumstances.

lisad123everybodydancenow Sat 09-Feb-13 23:12:09

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

thesecretmusicteacher Sat 09-Feb-13 23:12:18

Would like to add that the mum, once befriended, strongly preferred it to be known that child x had been hurt as a toddler. Once this was in the public domain she knew parents would think in a more measured way. She felt secrecy just fanned the flames and I agree.

Don't know much this applies to foster mums. No experience.

Paddlinglikehell Sun 10-Feb-13 00:29:23

Dd had similar at her school and would get very distressed by it, from reception up to Yr 1 there were daily incidents with two pupils, one of whom had 1-1. After two separate cases of violence to her, one of which was taken very seriously in school, we took the decision to move her.

I have no idea what problems the children may have had, but I do know that it is still going on. The classroom is frequently evacuated and one of them often restrained by a teacher who comes from another class. Two others have left since us.

I am desperately sorry for these kids and the teachers dealing with it, they obviously need more support, but DD's education and emotional wellbeing was our first concern.

Our Dd is a different child, she no longer 'worries', she is confident, enthusiastic and enjoys going to school now. I am all for inclusion, but not at he expense of the majority, I am sure the other parents in this instance are (rightly or wrongly) as pissed off as we were.

HotheadPaisan Sun 10-Feb-13 08:45:08

I'm not too concerned about gossip around DS1, I don't hear it so it doesn't bother me. Lots of the other parents at school know us and know how difficult it's been and what we've done to get support and things really are better after 2.5 years. Agree with the comments not to write him/ her off.

Meltdowns rarely come from nowhere, a simple ABC chart would help establish triggers and lead to some analysis and action plan. There really are so many things that could be done, everyone just has to want to put the effort in.

DS1 could easily have been excluded at 4, 5, 6, I am so very, very glad he wasn't.

MrsDeVere Sun 10-Feb-13 08:59:13

100% agree with 'meltdowns rarely come from nowhere'

The school need to get better at being proactive with this poor kids's support.

No-one just kicks off without any warning. They need to start recognizing the warnings. I would say 'pacing about' is a MASSIVE warning. The kid might as well be wearing a sign saying 'I am about to kick off, I am getting very angry, help me'

Unless parents are in the classroom it is impossible to tell what is going on and how much impact it is having. An incident may last seconds. Several other pupils may be doing things throughout the day. All the focus goes on the 'problem' child and it gets out of hand.

We owe these children an education and care. They are not monsters, they are children.

NynaevesSister Sun 10-Feb-13 10:51:41

Mainstream school may simply not be the best place for the child. He clearly has needs that can't be met. My OH has worked at a specialist primary for children with behavioural problems where they can offer a lot of help and support. Usually though children go there after all other options exhausted and sadly that can mean more than one exclusion when really they should have gone there first.

FreckledLeopard Sun 10-Feb-13 12:19:27

I would be worried and concerned that my DD would be missing out on learning if resources were having to be diverted to manage the other child at the expense of those children without such problems.

I wouldn't want DD to be around children who threatened (or used) violence and I wouldn't want her schooling disrupted. Thus, if the child's behaviour had a detrimental impact on her learning I would complain to the school.

My ex-husband's son is autistic and at primary school. He now has full time 1-2-1 but he caused significant disruption over the years and I don't think that mainstream was appropriate for him. If child is on ASD spectrum then they aren't going to 'learn' appropriate behaviour by being in a mainstream sitting since autistic children do not absorb social norms and behaviour by copying others.

Inclusion IMO is not always appropriate in all circumstances and in this example, it sounds like the school is going no-one any favours at all.

Fairenuff Sun 10-Feb-13 12:53:48

Whilst it is clear that the staff need more training, support, advice etc., sometimes they are more likely to get it if parents do complain about the child.

Sometimes it is helpful if the problems are highlighted. The difficulties are then taken more seriously and instead of just coping with the situations as and when they arise, a proper action plan is put into place with frequent re-assessments. Raising concerns is sometimes helpful.

Panzee Sun 10-Feb-13 13:09:08

As a teacher it is sad but true that we tend to get ignored unless parents start complaining. I would encourage this. Maybe go from the angle f your child's safety and also academic progression. In our area it's often the only way this poor child will get the help he needs.

ouryve Sun 10-Feb-13 13:12:17

Apart from the touching of girls (he won't go near girls) that's my Y4 DS you could be describing. He has ASD and ADHD.

lisad123everybodydancenow Sun 10-Feb-13 13:29:21

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MrsDeVere Sun 10-Feb-13 13:32:29

The child is not 'diverting resources' and if I may say so, I fucking hate that phrase.

You will find that children with additional needs attract additional resources. The money tends not to be ringfenced so less responsible schools can use the money for other things.

This boy is getting 1:1.

Thus leaving the TA in the class to concentrate on the other children.

I have worked in classrooms and now I visit them when doing transition work with children.

If a class is being disrupted unduly and 'resources diverted' the school is not doing their job properly.

I visited nursery where they had staff shadowing a child's every move and swapping shifts every hour because 'it was too exhausting for one person' ffs.

They were giving this child loads of negative attention and pathologising a frickin 4 year old's behaviour.

GingerbreadGretel Sun 10-Feb-13 13:33:03

Parents should always feel able to complain. They can slant it from "I am concerned whether there is enough support" it does not need to be a witch hunt about a small child.

MrsDeVere Sun 10-Feb-13 13:33:31

Freckled none of what you have written about ASD is true. Honestly, stop repeating it, it doesn't do you any favours.

lisad123everybodydancenow Sun 10-Feb-13 13:34:49

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MrsDeVere Sun 10-Feb-13 13:37:29

Wave back smile

FreckledLeopard Sun 10-Feb-13 14:07:52

Well, I lived with my ASD step-child for three years before the marriage fell apart and spent endless hours researching and trying to get help - statementing, ABA, social stories etc. of course not all ASD children are the same but it's pretty well accepted that children on the spectrum do not tend to learn in the same way as NT children do, hence the need (often) for intensive support. My step-son certainly did not learn from other children in any way and was not affected by any social norms or rules. He did not care about following rules or conventions in the same way as NT children did and was disruptive day in, day out, although now with a full time 1-2-1 he is less so.

But, it took 4 years to get that support in place - hence 4 years where the resources were diverted to manage him. Now he has a statement and support is in place. Prior to that it was a nightmare for all concerned.

lisad123everybodydancenow Sun 10-Feb-13 14:13:31

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FreckledLeopard Sun 10-Feb-13 14:18:23

No - I'm talking about my experience with my step-son, knowing other ASD parents and children and the reading and research I did.
But I did think that it was fairly widely accepted that inability or difficulty in picking up social norms and cues was a significant part of the spectrum. And that learning by osmosis in terms of social situations is not the norm if on the spectrum - hence need for support, social stories, ABA etc

MareeyaDolores Sun 10-Feb-13 15:07:23

This child is being comprehensively failed. As is the rest of the class.

The best way to get him appropriate support, is to make it easier for school to meet his needs and harder for school to continue with the approaches which seem not to be working. Complaints from other parents can be useful in this. The difficulty with having the local authority as your 'corporate parent' is that if the same council refuses to meet a child's educational needs, the SW is unable to fight this.

As posters above say, meltdowns don't usually come from no-where, and a good ABC analysis goes a long way.

MareeyaDolores Sun 10-Feb-13 15:12:40

And OP, I've reported your post as it's way too detailed for any open forum. The general points raised are very valid, but even with some disguising I think things are far too guessable.

You might want to report it yourself, with an alternative form of wording if you can think of something suitably vague and brief.

MrsDeVere Sun 10-Feb-13 15:14:25

You know what they say 'if you have met one child with ASD, you have met one child with ASD'

ABA is not appropriate for many children with ASD and is certainly not accepted as a treatment for all children on the spectrum.

For some kids it would be useless. Some it would be unnecessary and for some harmful.

Children with ASD can learn from modelling..that is what intensive interaction is about! The spectrum is so large it is ridiculous to make statements about 'Children with ASD do not.....'

AND how were resources DIVERTED to help him? The resources are there to help him. But you carry on losing that insulting phrase. Parents of kids with SN love to hear stuff like that about their kids. hmm

lljkk Sun 10-Feb-13 15:20:56

You will find that children with additional needs attract additional resources.

I thought the consensus within SEN community is that it's always under-funded? confused

Our school has almost banned new IEPs, I think for funding reasons.

I can understand why some parents are spitting mad, from OP's description. It isn't an easy environment to learn in, is it?

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