phonics experts -come and settle an argument

(380 Posts)
sausagesandwich34 Wed 23-Jan-13 21:43:54

scone it's an oldy but a goody!

pronounced to rhyme with cone or gone?

does the magic 'e' come into play?

does the magic 'e' even exist anymore?

Mashabell Thu 24-Jan-13 10:09:30

And thank u, Rustybear
for saying
I found it a very interesting post

mrz Thu 24-Jan-13 17:23:36

Mashabell Thu 24-Jan-13 07:32:03

Magic e does still exist. It is used in several thousand words like (like, bike, make, take, broke, stroke, duke, puke, used) and 86 words with e-e (eke, even, here), but the new name for it is 'split digraphs'.

Sorry to tell you masha but e isn't really magic shock ... and the toothfairy and Santa aren't real either.
The letter <e> is half of a pair of letters that represent a single sound it just so happens there is another sound in the middle.

maizieD Thu 24-Jan-13 17:27:22

Anyone wanting to check on pronunciaiton should check in the OED.

Want to check on spelling while you're about it? I thought it was a typo the first time...

Class may be alive and well but we don't all have to join in that silly game, do we?

mrz Thu 24-Jan-13 17:29:47

Anyone wanting to check on pronunciaiton should check in the OED.

The Oxford online version says

There are two possible pronunciations of the word scone: the first rhymes with gone and the second rhymes with tone.

learnandsay Thu 24-Jan-13 17:30:04

Why so much angst about whether or not any of them exist? If it works for you then use it. It's a free country.

Missbopeep Thu 24-Jan-13 17:31:32

oh FGS- maizieD surely you with all your knowledge of English can work out that the transposed "i" in pronunciation is a typo? I'm a blinking teacher and published author- I know how to spell but I don't bother too much with typos when on forums.

Go need to get a life dear, if you want to nit pick so much here.

Missbopeep Thu 24-Jan-13 17:34:16

mrz- maybe that is a more recent entry online? I think I'd prefer to stick with print version for something as important as the OED. I suspect that they have included both versions to cover the regional/class variations but IME people who rhyme it with bone are trying to be posh.

maizieD Thu 24-Jan-13 17:38:46

There's no angst about it on my part, lands. I happily said that I use both versions as the mood takes me. It was silly comments about 'class' that surprised me shock

maizieD Thu 24-Jan-13 17:40:13

I know how to spell but I don't bother too much with typos when on forums.

That's what they all say, dear...

Thewhingingdefective Thu 24-Jan-13 17:45:39

You say scone, I say sconesmile

Mashabell Thu 24-Jan-13 17:47:17

Mrz
"e isn't really magic ...
The letter <e> is half of a pair of letters that represent a single sound it just so happens there is another sound in the middle."
I did say that teachers now talk about 'split digraphs' rather than 'magic e'.

Since u seem to question what I know about it (as u do about everything i say), I shall explain the use of 'magic e' more fully.

English has a unique and rather complex system for showing whether
the vowels a, i, o, u (and, to a lesser extent e) are long or short, as in:
flat, flatten – inflate; hem, hemmed – theme;
hid, hidden – hide; dot, dotty – dote; tub, tubby – tube.

When the vowels a, e, i, o and u are followed by just one consonant (or several consonants and a vowel), they are 'closed' and are supposed to have a short sound, as in:
at, pet, pin, dot, bun
actor, tender, hinder, doctor, bunting.
If a consonant after the letters a, e, i, o and u is followed by another vowel, they are supposed to be ‘open’ and long, as in:
hale, halo; peter, period; fine, final; sole, solo;
tube, tubular'.
If a stressed vowel before a consonant and another vowel is to stay short, it is supposed to be followed by a doubled consonant:
attitude, petty, pinnacle, dotty, bunny.
Hence:
cut + er = cutter: cute + er = cuter.
Several thousand English words conform to this system.

Unfortunately, there are also hundreds of words which break the ‘open and shut’ rule in five different ways.

1. Nearly 400 words of more than one syllable break the doubling rule by
failing to double a consonant after a short, stressed vowel
(habit, very, city, body, study) .

2. Another 158 words have doubled consonants which are
unrelated to keeping a stressed vowel short
(accommodation, hello, immense, occur, hurrah).

3. Several hundred words with short vowels have a
misleading, surplus –e:
have, seven, gone – cf. save, even, bone.

4. Nearly 200 words have
irregular spellings for the short vowels e, i and u
(bread, pretty, touch),
sometimes combined with missing doubled consonants as well
(many, women; money).

5.The ‘open’ vowel method is disobeyed by
87 words for long a (made - paid; make - break),
79 for long i (while - whilst, mime - climb)
100 for long o (mole – bowl, roll, soul)
and
the ‘e-e’ spelling is used in just 86 words
and different ones in 366 (eke – seek, speak, shriek).

Any questions?

Missbopeep Thu 24-Jan-13 17:47:21

Whatever Maizie.

If you are looking for a fight Maizie look somewhere else. You seem to be trying to provoke me. I won't play because I have better things to do. I don't need to defend myself or explain myself to you.

Missbopeep Thu 24-Jan-13 17:49:13

Masha- have you thought about writing a book on this as you spend a huge amount of time "educating" people- maybe you could actually make it pay?

learnandsay Thu 24-Jan-13 17:49:51

She has already written one.

Euphemia Thu 24-Jan-13 17:58:20

Good lord, does anyone else feel their heart sink into their wellies when Masha comes on?

learnandsay Thu 24-Jan-13 18:01:01

Euphemia, that's unfair. It's a public forum. Masha is as entitled as everyone else to post. If you don't like her posts then don't read them. There is no shortage of others to read.

mrz Thu 24-Jan-13 18:01:11

I'm taking anti allergy medication Euphemia grin

Masha is in fact the author of a number of books (4 of which are available on Amazon) please buy then she will stop posting her lists!

(that wasn't a serious request)

Euphemia Thu 24-Jan-13 18:07:38

Fair point, learnandsay, and believe me I don't read her posts after the first time!

I just think "Oh here we go again," and my heart sinks. Top marks to her for continuing to try to persuade us that wholesale spelling reform is what we need to cure illiteracy!

Missbopeep Thu 24-Jan-13 18:15:22

well we need to know her name first to buy them.

learnandsay Thu 24-Jan-13 18:16:48

Masha Bell

mrz Thu 24-Jan-13 18:18:17
Houseworkprocrastinator Thu 24-Jan-13 22:15:04

i would say scone to rhyme with gone... but i would have though if you showed a child who had been learning all the rules and they have never heard the word before they would probably say it the other way?

maizieD Thu 24-Jan-13 22:22:37

i would say scone to rhyme with gone... but i would have though if you showed a child who had been learning all the rules and they have never heard the word before they would probably say it the other way?

I think you're possibly correct because in 'learning the rules' a child will probably have been taught about 'probabilities' and which 'sound' to try first as being the most likely.

learnandsay Thu 24-Jan-13 22:33:15

But in this case both are possible. It's not a question of which is correct. It's a question of which do you approve of. I'm not sure that phonics helps in that case.

mrz Fri 25-Jan-13 06:42:49

It isn't even a case of approval more of a case of what you hear others in your family and wider community say ...it's how children learn language.

Join the discussion

Join the discussion

Registering is free, easy, and means you can join in the discussion, get discounts, win prizes and lots more.

Register now