Stop Schools Cheating Please

(453 Posts)
twiggles Sun 20-Jan-13 11:17:02

Whatever your child is like, some primary schools and nurseries are pretending children start off at the low end, so they can pretend to inspectors of private and state schools that the child has developed only because of their teaching. If your child's advanced , some schools in rich areas take it out on the child. They won't bother giving the child attention, because the child's advanced, so they let the child coast downwards. But they give reports in writing about the child that pretend the child has started off at a low point in development and then got much better because of the teaching at the school....when the fact is the child was able to read or write when the child started at the school and as the school is giving the child little attention, the child has coasted downwards. Tha's what many schools do so they can pretend they've developed everything in the child, they want all children to be the same standard, like a photocopier. Poor children. Some teachers admit they're cheating and don't take the reports seriously and write them to impress inspectors. This is happending all over the show and I can't understand why inspectors are allowing them to get away with it. If parents start grading teachers in the school every three months the teachers won't be able to hide what's going on to the inspectors and teachers who are pretending might stop. Teachers that aren't giving inspectors the facts need to be stopped...they're not giving children an honest education.

twiggles Sun 20-Jan-13 15:05:32

Last but one sentence of my last post 14:57:03 should read:
"And for the teacher who seemed to think that financial institutions and hospitals aren't graded by those who use them, it seems you're out of touch, the most reputed of them do assessments on a regular or ongoing basis. They usually have something like ten or twenty questions and have a comment box at the end."

mrz Sun 20-Jan-13 15:06:22

actually twiggles your posts have given me the best chuckle I've had so far this year

ipadquietly Sun 20-Jan-13 15:08:34

twiggles The parents would have no evidence on which to base their 'grading' - it would be on the basis of second hand report from their children. Or are you suggesting they all come in to observe us on a rota system and give us marks out of 10? grin Will they provide feedback? Will teachers be allowed to respond?

mrz Sun 20-Jan-13 15:10:09

and I would like to say thank you for brightening a snowy Sunday

mrz Sun 20-Jan-13 15:11:34

does your school not send out a termly parents questionnaire twiggles?

teacherwith2kids Sun 20-Jan-13 15:15:07

Twiggles,

Schools are commented on by those who use them - that's what ParentView and parent questionnaires are about. Every school I have ever been in issues a parent questionnaire annually. Equally, I have commented on my experience as a patient at my Doctor's surgery (overall) and at my bank (overall).

However, where this differs from what you propose is that it is at an institutional, not an individual, level. And also that I am grading 'my experience', not 'my doctor' - in the same way that when I fill in my parental questionnaire for my children's schools, I am commenting on my children's experience of school (which I am absolutely qualified to do) but not on 'the ability of an individual teacher' (which I am not qualified to do, even as a fellow professional, because I do not observe them on a day to day basis, scrutinise their marking, look at a cross-section of pupil's books, look at progress across the class statistically, experience their subject co-ordination responsibilities, view a cross-section of lessons, scrutinise planning etc).

If parents are to grade teachers, then they would need to be able to do all of those things, exactly as those such as SMT and inspectors who do scrutinise teacher performance do, otherwise their view of a teacher's perfomance is partial and potentially biased too much by an individual viewpoint. Is that what you are proposing? Groups of parents observing lessons, scrutinising books etc etc?

If a parent has an issue with my teaching of their child or their child's progress, my door is always open to them. I spend many, many hours in such discussions, both positive and negative. Having just moved jobs, I know from dozens and dozens of written comments that I am held in high esteem and would be graded well. I still do not think that 'being graded by parents' would add one jot to the actual performance assessment or professional development of teachers.

teacherwith2kids Sun 20-Jan-13 15:16:19

Mrz, I suspect from the fact that Twiggles' previous (all deleted) posts have been on posts about private schools, that her experience of the state sector is in fact somewhat limited.

mrz Sun 20-Jan-13 15:19:47

I don't think it just her experience of the state sector that is limited to be fair hmm

twiggles Sun 20-Jan-13 15:26:08

Re comment: "The parents would have no evidence on which to base their grading". The latter is considered to be a baseless assertion. Parents have more information than anyone else. Firstly, they know how teachers really interact with parents, not only the few who may have other links with the school or from whom they may gain advantage in another way. Parents will know if the teacher is taking the parents' knowledge of their children into account. Parents will know if a teacher writes something about their child that shows the teacher has little idea what their child is like. Parents will know when they look at their children's school exercise books, what the teacher is doing with their children, and whether they are doing enough. Parents will know how much the teacher is reading with their child and whether the comments they make in the Reading Record have anything to do with reality or not. And so on. Parents will know what's gong on. Don't underestimate parents. There will be exceptions, but generally parents know more than anyone else how their children are doing. The problem with some teachers is that they appear to have become arrogant and think they should not have to answer to anyone. I believe they are wrong and that the situation must change as soon as possible. It is unfair to children not to stamp out any cheating that may be going on in schools today.

twiggles Sun 20-Jan-13 15:26:45

re: mrz - glad the thread's brightened up your day.

teacherwith2kids Sun 20-Jan-13 15:33:11

Twiggles,

I answer to:
- My pupils (daily)
- Parents (daily)
- Senior Management team, including all the subject leaders and the SENCo
- Head
- Governors
- LEA and their assorted advisors
- School Improvement Partner
- Ofsted
- DfEE

Also, of course, all other bodies such as Health and Safety etc.

Who else was it that you thought that I should answer to? Could you possibly give me ANY evidence to back up your assertions?

Btw, you perceive criticism as evidence that teachers are hiding something. It is in fact the case that you are being criticised because you have not given any facts or genuine evidence to back up your assertions.

Please could I come and observe you doing whatever it is that you do for a living? Actually, no, could I send my 10 year old, who will then report back to me and I shall grade you on the results....

ipadquietly Sun 20-Jan-13 15:37:16

Oh, they're going to do book scrutinies as well? Blimey, this could turn into a full time job.
Perhaps Ofsted should just hire a mum's army and save the country squillions of pounds.

twiggles Sun 20-Jan-13 15:38:51

Schools don't send out questionnaires each year. Those that have any form of feedback generally have strict rules that only positive, general, things can be said. So what's said is invariably innocuous.

We need teachers to be graded by parents every term, or at least in July, every single academic year. And the grading needs to be handled independently of the school to give it credibility.

cumbrialass Sun 20-Jan-13 15:39:13

I see many parents for possibly 5 minutes per day, my "interaction" with most consists of "cold today isn't it", "has Jimmy remembered his Pe kit today", many parents I don't see at all. Parents have knowledge of what their child is like at home, not at school. I have had several parents describe how dreadfull their child is at home, when they are a perfect angel in school ( and vice versa!) many children are completely different in the school environment. So what I write in a report is based on what I see for the 6 hours a day I see their child in the class, not what the parents percieve they will be like based on their experience of their child in the home environment.Parents can look through exercise books and see what is recorded there, they will not know of the hours we spend NOT working in books, working with partners, on whitebards, on ICT based activities, on discussion, role play, all the elements that lead up to the work in books, how would these be judged?

teacherwith2kids Sun 20-Jan-13 15:40:13

Ah, no, ipad, they are only going to scrutinise THEIR OWN CHILD'S books, and from that grade the teacher overall. A statistical sample to get a balanced viewpoint - which would indeed take time - forms no part of the plan.

FelicityWasCold Sun 20-Jan-13 15:40:31

The problem with some teachers is that they appear to have become arrogant and think they should not have to answer to anyone

Teachers have line managers, and are accountable to head teachers. Schools are regularly inspected by a professional inspectorate.

It is extremely arrogant to assume that you know better than the professionals concerned. Not only that, you assume that parents as a whole are better placed than professionals to understand teaching and learning.

Out of curiosity, what about teachers who are also parents would they be exempt from inspection duties?

OP your children are very lucky, you clearly care a lot about their education and are engaged in it despite being in possession of flawed logic . I'm afraid you do not represent the majority you think you do, most parents would not feel qualified to inspect teachers and thousands simply do not care enough.

cumbrialass Sun 20-Jan-13 15:40:36

Schools do send out parent questionnaires every year and have no control over what feedback is given, how could we!!

Labro Sun 20-Jan-13 15:41:29

Having been in the state system and then moving to the private system, I wouldn't say that what you allege is widespread. If it is happening to your dc, then take it up with their school and ultimately consider moving schools. As an example, my ds is considered very able, his recent report stated that he had gone down a sub level in maths. So, instead of believing that all private schools have this problem I rang his maths teacher - turns out he hadn't understood fractions and didn't tell her, so she did a couple of catch up lessons and I didn't assume that there was something going on! If there is a problem of this nature at your independent prep school then make an appointment with the head and the govenors - but childrens levels do fluctuate, those being very bright at one age may not be as the scheme of work gets harder and parents should not automatically think its the teacher who is at fault.

teacherwith2kids Sun 20-Jan-13 15:42:30

Twiggles,

YOUIR school may not send out parent questionnaires each term. The 3 schools I know as a parent, the 5 I know directly as a teacher and the dozens I know indirectly as a teacher all do.

Perhaps you could suggest that to the school that you are worried about and is at the heart of your concerns?

cumbrialass Sun 20-Jan-13 15:43:06

Out of a class of 31, approximately 10 think I'm the best thing since sliced bread, 3 don't really like me and think their child would do better somewhere else, the rest couldn't give a stuff as long as their child is out of the house from 9 o'clock until 3.15. What grading would that give me?

FelicityWasCold Sun 20-Jan-13 15:44:15

Schools don't send out questionnaires each year.
Some do, some don't. All have communication policies, and complaints procedures.

Those that have any form of feedback generally have strict rules that only positive, general, things can be said. So what's said is invariably innocuous.

Not true, and if they did, how exactly would this be enforced?

We need teachers to be graded by parents every term, or at least in July, every single academic year

Do we? Why is that?

And the grading needs to be handled independently of the school to give it credibility.

And would do this? What would it cost? Could it ever be credible if it is not objective. How would you ensure all parents marked the same standard?

enjolraslove Sun 20-Jan-13 15:45:56

To answer your insulting question, yes I do have a 2i from Cambridge and a masters in my subject and education, also from Cambridge. That isn't what has made me a good teacher, though it has helped. What has taught me has been my training, mentors and experience. All of this involved and still does vast amounts of feedback. Some of which has been from parents. At my school we regularly ask for feedback from kids and parents on all things, including teaching. However, we also recognise that this is limited by a lack of expertise and experience and consequently we also have robust monitoring by experts. Same as all those other areas you mentioned.

tethersend Sun 20-Jan-13 15:46:27

Don't be silly twiggles- teachers haven't got time to interact with youparents the way you describe; we've got thirty children whose lives won't ruin themselves, you know.

Tsk.

teacherwith2kids Sun 20-Jan-13 15:46:56

Twiggles,

The private schools that you have knowledge of may not, of course, follow the good practice of all state schools and send out regular questionnaires. But that is no reason to assert that no schools do - as ever, restricting your assertions to what you have actually experienced may make you more credible:

'My child's school does not send out questionnaires'
'I am worried that my child's school is not stating his / her level correctly and they do not appear to be making progress'
'I am concerned about my child's teacher this year'

are all credible concerns.

'All teachers are in a conspiracy to downgrade bright pupils so all schools musyt be inspected by parents'
is not credible, simply because there is so much evidence against it and you have offered no evidence to support your case.

teacherwith2kids Sun 20-Jan-13 15:48:20

(As I have stated my educational credentials, btw, please could you state yours?)

Join the discussion

Join the discussion

Registering is free, easy, and means you can join in the discussion, get discounts, win prizes and lots more.

Register now