Stop Schools Cheating Please

(453 Posts)
twiggles Sun 20-Jan-13 11:17:02

Whatever your child is like, some primary schools and nurseries are pretending children start off at the low end, so they can pretend to inspectors of private and state schools that the child has developed only because of their teaching. If your child's advanced , some schools in rich areas take it out on the child. They won't bother giving the child attention, because the child's advanced, so they let the child coast downwards. But they give reports in writing about the child that pretend the child has started off at a low point in development and then got much better because of the teaching at the school....when the fact is the child was able to read or write when the child started at the school and as the school is giving the child little attention, the child has coasted downwards. Tha's what many schools do so they can pretend they've developed everything in the child, they want all children to be the same standard, like a photocopier. Poor children. Some teachers admit they're cheating and don't take the reports seriously and write them to impress inspectors. This is happending all over the show and I can't understand why inspectors are allowing them to get away with it. If parents start grading teachers in the school every three months the teachers won't be able to hide what's going on to the inspectors and teachers who are pretending might stop. Teachers that aren't giving inspectors the facts need to be stopped...they're not giving children an honest education.

ninah Sun 20-Jan-13 13:12:29

In the past I have worked in a school where HT pressurized staff to report certain grades, and teachers kept a separate file for 'their' assessment and the 'official' assesment
In general though the pressure was to put grades up rather than down. I do not work there any more.

teacherwith2kids Sun 20-Jan-13 13:16:51

"As a teacher, are you saying that you have a good degree, a 2.1 or first, at a good university and that you have a further degree in Education, which is the standard in some countries in other countries?"

Yes. That is pretty much exactly my set of qualifications, except that I have an Oxbridge PhD as well.

41notTrendy Sun 20-Jan-13 13:17:27

You do understand OP, that just because you think something, it doesn't mean it's right, no matter how many times you say it?
Again, to give your opinion any credibility, what's your evidence?

Feenie Sun 20-Jan-13 13:20:07

It's been in the news.

Again - link please, Twiggles.

Have you fallen into Google? confused

peacefuleasyfeeling Sun 20-Jan-13 13:23:01

Erm, Twiggles, I am a teacher and I am sad to say you do have a point, at least in theory, but I'm sure it is not fair to say categorically that this practice is widespread.

I work in an inner city primary, a brilliant school (even if I say so myself) where we work with challenges such as our catchment being nearly off the scale on the urban deprivation index, a large majority of our pupils having English as an additional language, with some speaking little or no English on entry to our reception class, as well as a very transient school commumity. We have worked hard for our 'good' Ofsted ratings, but showing good attainment and proving value added is a challenge much of the way.

Now, our reception teacher recently went to a local conference where she fell into conversation with one of the reception teachers working in one of our city's more affluent catchment areas. This teacher said, by way of a helpful hint, that her team had a policy of "always erring on the side of caution" when making on entry assessments and subsequent EYFS profile assessments, as "it just makes it easier for everyone else further up" meaning that if the starting point is low enough subsequent teachers have a better chance of meeting their pupils' APS targets in the future. As a result, the majority of reception pupils in this over subscribed primary school in a very nice neighbourhood are either working toward or just scraping their ELG and are not or only just working at their age related expectations. (They do, however, come on stormingly later on, showing remarkable value added.) I know this area well, this school is one of a few possibilities for DD in a couple of years. It is a lovely school.

It is very, very difficult. Some years before I joined my school, one teacher had submitted rather optimistic end of Y2 teacher assessments and this had finally come around to haunt the school as it became clear that this particular cohort would never be able to make their end of Y6 targets as a result of those upbeat assessments four years previously. It resulted in a flurry of LA involvement, investigating how school had failed these children, as they were not on track to meet expectations. Lessons were learnt.

Oh boy, I hope I haven't upset anyone now.

richmal Sun 20-Jan-13 13:25:06

How do people know that what the OP is saying is not true? IME, for whatever the reason, I found I could not get the differentiation my child wanted. This was one reason I decided to HE.

Being told children were not assessed above level 3 at the end of KS1 was when I began to suspect there would be no catering for the more able.

Feenie Sun 20-Jan-13 13:26:36

that her team had a policy of "always erring on the side of caution" when making on entry assessments and subsequent EYFS profile assessments

That's very different to what the OP is suggesting - which is so severe it has been on the news. Apparently.

Feenie Sun 20-Jan-13 13:27:38

Being told children were not assessed above level 3 at the end of KS1

That's very wrong, plain and simple. But again, that's one school - not 'most'.

Thatssofunny Sun 20-Jan-13 13:29:25

"As a teacher, are you saying that you have a good degree, a 2.1 or first, at a good university and that you have a further degree in Education, which is the standard in some other countries?"

Actually, I have two degrees at the level you have mentioned, as well as postgraduate qualifications in Education.

There are parents, who know about education (a great many of them are teachers). There are also parents, who do not know much about education. Both categories mostly want the best for their children, that is why "trust" and "communication" are rather important. (If I don't know about a problem, I cannot do anything to fix it...Have you spoken to your child's teacher about your perceived lack of challenge?) If, however, they are never happy with their children's teachers and make accusations like the ones you are making, I'd suggest that they take their children and educate them themselves. After all, you seem to believe yourself to be vastly superior to any teacher anyway.

Parents bring up their children and know a lot about their children. Granted. That doesn't mean that they will perform heart surgery on them, when it's needed. It doesn't mean that they will be best placed to support their child, if it has mental health issues. There are professionals out there for a reason. Just knowing someone and wanting the best for them is not always enough. Sometimes, it requires someone with a little more distance and a greater level of experience with a specific issue. As a parent, how often are you responsible for the well-being and educational achievement of 30 children in your care at any one time?

CecilyP Sun 20-Jan-13 13:31:03

Parents bring up their children and are likely to know more about their children than anyone else. Many of them have experience in a great deal of ways and may be far better qualified in education and other ways than any of the teachers they come across.

In that case, their children are hardly likely to 'coast downwards' however hopelesss a school might be.

Charmingbaker Sun 20-Jan-13 13:32:11

Triffids, I don't mean to put you but is your RL name Michael Gove?

lljkk Sun 20-Jan-13 13:34:33

In my part of the country we're all such turnip brains that we don't have these problems.

ninah Sun 20-Jan-13 13:35:42

peaceful R teachers are in a bind this year, with the EYFS changes (no scale points) - there is nowhere to go beyond Secure so if your dc come in at Secure you are stumped - all you can do is show you have made appropriate provision to extend them
having said that no one seems very sure about the new assessment procedures and guidelines are only now becoming available in our LEA

peacefuleasyfeeling Sun 20-Jan-13 13:35:44

Feenie, I was hoping to bow out and run, but I just want to clarify my point, perhaps too feebly made, which is that As a result, the majority of reception pupils in this over subscribed primary school in a very nice neighbourhood are either working toward or just scraping their ELG and are not or only just working at their age related expectations... after which I should probably have added "apparently". DD goes to nursery with kids who will be starting there; I just know they are as bright as buttons and will be sailing through those on entry assessments.

peacefuleasyfeeling Sun 20-Jan-13 13:40:22

Thanks, Ninah. That is interesting. I teach KS2, so R isn't my area of experise, but I do sympathise.

mrz Sun 20-Jan-13 13:46:14

Which ELGs are they just scraping peaceful?

peacefuleasyfeeling Sun 20-Jan-13 14:06:53

Hi mrz, I don't know. I am sharing what a colleague told me, but she didn't specify, and I didn't ask. And as I said, I teach KS2, so I am not, and wouldn't like to give the impression of being, too familiar with early years assessment.

mrz Sun 20-Jan-13 14:09:10

Well a child scraping the ELGs could mean a child scoring 4/9 or it could mean a child achieving 8/9 (9 being working within NC levels)...

ninah Sun 20-Jan-13 14:16:07

mrz the scale points to 9 went this year

ipadquietly Sun 20-Jan-13 14:20:38

I agree with peaceful
I am aware that some data manipulation takes place in certain schools who want to show outstanding progress and thus keep their -outstanding-- status.

This by no means insinuates that teaching and learning are compromised in any way.

mrz Sun 20-Jan-13 14:21:45

I assume peaceful is talking about last year as she/he mentioned scraping ELGs ninah

ninah Sun 20-Jan-13 14:23:50

oh OK I assumed this year's ELGs
ipad sums it up nicely I think

mrz Sun 20-Jan-13 14:32:17

Having low entry levels and making good progress over the primary phase doesn't automatically equate to "outstanding" in fact with the new Ofsted criteria it would be a factor.

twiggles Sun 20-Jan-13 14:57:03

We've hit a nerve centre. Things have to change and fortunately the Government is beginning to move in that direction. For the teacher on this thread who denigrated parents saying that most of them don't "know anything about education other than having been at schools themselves", and those of you who have a tendency towards that position, I believe the latter is a baseless assertion. Parents and children are the majority and their view is extremely important. It may be that some teachers fear putting themselves up for grading by parents for fear of being given low grades, maybe cos they think they'll be seen as socially inept. I believe the best teachers would welcome being graded by parents, as it would show just how good they are. And for the teacher who seemed to think that financial institutations and patients aren't graded by those who use them, it seems you're out of touch, the most reputed of them do assessments on a regular or ongoing basis. They usually something like ten or twenty questions and have a comment box at the end.

ipadquietly Sun 20-Jan-13 15:04:36

Yes, I agree, that there are even more hoops to jump through this year regarding teaching and learning, progress of 'group children', etc.

The 2012 Ofsted (MKIII) criteria make me feel queasy. I really wish we'd had ours last summer.

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