Stop Schools Cheating Please

(453 Posts)
twiggles Sun 20-Jan-13 11:17:02

Whatever your child is like, some primary schools and nurseries are pretending children start off at the low end, so they can pretend to inspectors of private and state schools that the child has developed only because of their teaching. If your child's advanced , some schools in rich areas take it out on the child. They won't bother giving the child attention, because the child's advanced, so they let the child coast downwards. But they give reports in writing about the child that pretend the child has started off at a low point in development and then got much better because of the teaching at the school....when the fact is the child was able to read or write when the child started at the school and as the school is giving the child little attention, the child has coasted downwards. Tha's what many schools do so they can pretend they've developed everything in the child, they want all children to be the same standard, like a photocopier. Poor children. Some teachers admit they're cheating and don't take the reports seriously and write them to impress inspectors. This is happending all over the show and I can't understand why inspectors are allowing them to get away with it. If parents start grading teachers in the school every three months the teachers won't be able to hide what's going on to the inspectors and teachers who are pretending might stop. Teachers that aren't giving inspectors the facts need to be stopped...they're not giving children an honest education.

Feenie Tue 22-Jan-13 21:59:22

That happens more than you would think - Y6 pupils who scrape a level in a test, for example, only to arrive at secondary not performing anywhere near that level.

Teacher assessment is more thorough, reliable, and requires much more evidence, and sources of evdience.

mrz Tue 22-Jan-13 21:59:39

I disagree children have strengths and weaknesses and it is quite possible that a child is very good at calculation but struggles with problem solving or are secure with geometry but have difficulty with algebra. It is more than possible for a child to pick up enough marks by focusing on their strong areas to achieve level x when the teachers knows they aren't secure in all aspects required.

theschoolbreakfastclub Wed 23-Jan-13 10:03:04

That makes sense Mrz.
I'm still convinced that a few teachers/ schools don't want to/ can't teach above a certain level and artificially keep starting points lower in ks1 so as to show more VA in ks2.

richmal Wed 23-Jan-13 11:07:24

I'm not saying tests are perfect, but if there is a disagreement in what the parents and techers assess a child's level to be, they would at least be a starting point. Every assessment could be flawed, even teacher assessment especially with over 30 children to keep track of in one class.

It could at least give an indication that further assessment is needed and provide the evidence that able children are not being overlooked.

ShipwreckedAndComatose Wed 23-Jan-13 17:39:17

My issue with tests is that it encourages some teachers to teach to the test rather than teach a clear understanding of a concept.

Tests are not perfect (see current fuss over GCSE exams)
teacher assessment allows for a more thorough assessment of a pupils understanding over a longer period of time and in different scenarios.

mrz Wed 23-Jan-13 17:39:27

How would it be a starting point? The teacher works with the child every day and knows what they are capable of doing on every aspect needed to gain a secure NC level whereas a test only includes some aspects and it is possible to pass that test by correctly answering questions on some of those aspects hmm

ShipwreckedAndComatose Wed 23-Jan-13 17:45:45

Rich mail, I think you would be surprised by just how much a primary school teacher knows about their pupils and what they can do.

I am impressed by the depth of their knowledge and it comes through what they do in the class each and every day

ShipwreckedAndComatose Wed 23-Jan-13 17:46:28

Sorry 'richmal' flipping corrective text

Feenie Wed 23-Jan-13 17:47:04

With respect, richmal, the mere fact that you think a test would sort it shows a huge lack of understanding of just how thorough teacher assessment has to be.

pointythings Wed 23-Jan-13 18:26:19

I agree with those who doubt the value of tests. I've seen with my own eyes that my DD2's teachers know far more about what she can and can't do in certain specific areas than I do. They see her work every day, they have access to her workbooks and see her progress on a continuous basis. At parents' evenings I get an insight into what she does and I am amazed - both at what she can do (which she downplays at home) and at the depth of concrete and constructive feedback she gets in order to move her forwards.

A test can't deliver that depth of knowledge. Where there is a dispute about levels, I would far rather have the child's body of work assessed by a professional teacher who does not know the child (someone from another school, who therefore has no reason to cheat as they do not benefit from that child's levels) than put the child through a snapshot test. Of course putting a structure in place to manage this would be very costly - but then so would testing be.

Ultimately I think parents should sort these things out between themselves and the school - if necessary, by leaving and seeking another school for their child. A school which genuinely caps children's achievements and can't be bothered to support those who need it and extend those who are able is not worth its salt and will ultimately be caught out. However, despite the amount of teacher bashing negative propaganda coming out of our current government, I find it very difficult to believe that the education system is rife with these schools.

twiggles Thu 24-Jan-13 13:39:35

It's time to fine cheats and grade regards to tests....some teachers and schools have been cheating in exams - tests...there's been plenty of talk about it in the media recently. Punishing children with more tests because teachers or schools are cheating isn't appropriate and won't solve the problem. What if they cheat? What would make a difference, is fining teachers and schools that are cheating. Teachers who say they know nothing about cheating shouldn't object to fines, because if no teachers and schools are cheating, the fine won't be used. And grading teachers from the bottom up is the only way forward. Just because some teachers might be afraid of what people might say is no reason not to do it. The bottom up approach is free. It gives access to the huge resource of parents whose children go to school. It's time to take the bull by the horns and go for it.

ilikenoodles Thu 24-Jan-13 13:47:15

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Snorbs Thu 24-Jan-13 14:29:56

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Feenie Thu 24-Jan-13 15:54:27

some teachers and schools have been cheating in exams - tests...there's been plenty of talk about it in the media recently

Where? Go on, show us this 'plenty of talk', go on. Any links? At all?

Feenie Thu 24-Jan-13 15:56:18

And grading teachers from the bottom up is the only way forward.

Which bit of 'we are already graded' do you not get?

Who are you talking to? Because you aren't addressing anyone on this thread.

Lifeisontheup Thu 24-Jan-13 16:04:15

I really couldn't be bothered with grading teachers every term or even every year, I have quite enough to do with my own job and with bringing my children up when they're not at school to waste time with this.
It would be yet another thing which would get but on the 'should do but probably won't' pile in our house.

ShipwreckedAndComatose Thu 24-Jan-13 16:37:25

It's time to fine cheats and grade regards to tests....some teachers and schools have been cheating in exams - tests...there's been plenty of talk about it in the media recently

Is this your 'evidence'?? confused
I read a great deal in the media but that doesn't mean it's all true.

Can we have proper supporting evidence? As a scientist, I find its essential in forming conclusions

mrz Thu 24-Jan-13 17:01:48

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pointythings Thu 24-Jan-13 18:05:36

<howls at the moon>

Hi, twiggles.

How about some nice links? As in, er, evidence? Pretty please?

mrz are you going for your second gong then? grin

mrz Thu 24-Jan-13 18:12:38

I may as well be deleted for something I remember writing grin

CorruptWalnut Thu 24-Jan-13 19:17:54

I'm a regular reader on MN but not a poster really, but this post is inspiring me. I've already seen that Twiggles doesn't like to answer questions, but I'll try for a laugh. Here goes:-

1) Could you please quantify "some" when you say things like "some schools" and "some teachers".

2) Does this cheating occur country wide, or just your locality? (please give evidence/links with your answer for this).

3) What research are you basing your statement on that parents are better placed to educate children than teachers "because they know their child better"? Surely if this was true then all teaching jobs and mandatory schooling would have been scrapped by now.

I'm going leave it at just 3 questions so as not to cause you too much confusion.

Thanks in anticipation of your much awaited responses.

cory Thu 24-Jan-13 19:36:54

When my children were at primary school, I sometimes thought teachers graded their achievements lower than was consistent with what I knew they could do. Then I realised I was looking at what they might have done once, at home, in a 1:1 setting and no distractions, and possibly with more than a little subconscious prompting from me. The teachers were looking for skills and knowledge that were firm enough to be produced regularly and with confidence.

twiggles Fri 25-Jan-13 12:18:57

There are clearly some teachers on this thread. Some don't seem to hold parents in high esteem. Some do not seem to trust the views of children they teach. The latter suggests some teachers may hold themselves on a pedestal. School is a compulsory service that teachers provide for children. There is no excuse for any teacher to think they are above those that are providing a job for them. It sounds like some teachers would benefit from showing greater respect to both the parents and the children they teach. Teachers would more easily be kept on their toes if parents in every class grade their teacher every term. Fines for any teacher cheating could act as a useful deterrent.

cory Fri 25-Jan-13 13:56:44

A lot of us are not teachers- as we keep pointing out! I speak entirely as a parent.

As for trusting the views of the children, my slightly detached idea is based on the numerous times my dd has come home and claimed that a teacher is unfair or horrible- and the next week she is the best teacher in the world and dd hotly denies ever having said anything different.

I would also add that I hope dc's teachers do not believe everything they tell about me. wink

Of course, teachers should listen to parents- and ime they generally do. But not to every parent, all the time. Most schools sadly can show examples of parents who turn up and threaten violence if their child is told off for disrupting the class. Is it reasonable that a teacher's career should hang on the word of these parents? And if not, how do you tell them apart from the saner ones?

If there is a disagreement between my child and a teacher serious enough to require my involvement, I would go in with an open mind and listen to both sides, not rush to rubbish the teacher on a website.

Snorbs Fri 25-Jan-13 14:02:52

Yoohoo!!! Twiggles!!! Over here!!!

Quick thing - these news reports. Any links yet? No?

How utterly bizarre.

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