Mumsnet Talk

Bad news: parents lost the above mentioned case at the high court. Apparently its legal for a council to take £8,400,000 of tax payers money to buy the land for two schools where the intake will be 93% Catholic and the church pay ZERO rent. I hang my head in shame at the religious discrimination in this country.

"Bad news: parents lost the above mentioned case at the high court. Apparently its legal for a council to take £8,400,000 of tax payers money to buy the land for two schools where the intake will be 93% Catholic and the church pay ZERO rent. I hang my head in shame at the religious discrimination in this country."

See if you were to replace the word 'schools' with 'hospitals' in the above example, most people would think it was bonkers and outrageous.

But a lot of people are just blind to how absurd the school system is, due to personal interests, or a vague notion that children and religion 'go together'

Religions/cults/sects run schools to indoctrinate children and secure future revenue schemes.

That's the sad truth.

Sorry, none of which helps you, OP, no advice to give but hope you find a decent option somewhere.

I stick to my opinion of converting and changing the system from the inside.

from my experience where a catholic school has more than 95% catholic children would try their utmost best to turn away non -catholic children even if they did have a place !

DH and I were both dragged brought up Catholic, we would not send our children to Catholic Primaries (we changed our minds at last minute almost), because we do not agree with certain aspects of the faith.

To be accepted for a faith place you would probably have to live in the Church for the next year and even then woud be highly suspicious - I would take the non-faith place.

I like the idea of there being a strong set of morals

But do you want the morals taught in RC schools?

The kind of morals that say a 9 year old, pregnant with twins after being raped has commited a 'mortal sin' for having an abortion and is thrown out of the church, but the man who raped her isn't because his crime is lesser?

www.democraticunderground.com/121828660

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Cardoso_Sobrinho

Religions/cults/sects run schools to indoctrinate children

Faith schools appeared before the state got involved with educating children. The objective was not to indoctrinate children, just to educate them. In my experience most faith schools do attempt to indoctrinate children. Indeed, there are many where you would hardly know it was a faith school.

Personally I am neither for nor against faith schools but I understand the history that has led us to the current situation and am aware that abolishing faith schools would cost the government billions of pounds. The current government has stipulated that new academies (not convertors) and free schools with a religious character must allocate at least 50% of places without reference to faith criteria. This does not, however, affect existing faith schools.

Regarding Richmond:

- The church will pay a peppercorn rent
- The church will fund 100% of the capital costs of upgrading the site
- One third of the places at the primary school will be non-faith places
- The 93% figure seems to relate to the secondary school only and assumes it is oversubscribed with Catholic applicants

If the church was not paying the capital costs it is likely that there would be no new schools. It is also unlikely that there would be any schools if the church was made to pay a commercial rent for the site as school funding would not cover this. This should not be interpreted as saying I support what is happening in Richmond - I have no views one way or the other.

"Can you imagine the outcry if an employer interviewing for a job said your not getting it because your muslim/jewish/cathloic etc."
Surely the clue is in the name though? 'Catholic school'?
If you were interviewing for a job in a mosque, and you werent muslim, would you still feel discriminated against?
Its a school run by Catholics and aimed at Catholics. Attendees will be taught in accordance with Catholic beliefs. If you arent Catholic then why do you need your child to go there?!

I suppose the theory is that Catholic parents in Richmond will choose this school, thus freeing up places in other popular schools in Richmond. Don't know how it will work in practice. Maybe they will only choose it if the other likely option is an unpopular school.

A "not" seems to have gone missing in my post. That should say, "In my experience most faith schools do not attempt to indoctrinate children".

Can you imagine the outcry if an employer interviewing for a job said your not getting it because your muslim/jewish/cathloic etc.

If you were being interviewed for a job in, say, the Catholic church, a mosque or a synagogue I would not expect any outcry at all if you were rejected because you were not of the correct religion. If there was an outcry I would be forced to conclude that this country had become intolerant of religion. In my view that would be a form of discrimination.

CecilyP - My understanding is that Richmond has a large Catholic population and there is strong demand for a Catholic secondary school. There are currently no Catholic secondary schools in the borough. If this is correct then, as you say, Catholic parents are likely to choose this school freeing up places in other popular schools. It is also true that the number of children of school age is growing so Richmond probably needs more school places (I've got the figures somewhere but no time to dig them out at the moment).

"If you were being interviewed for a job in, say, the Catholic church, a mosque or a synagogue I would not expect any outcry at all if you were rejected because you were not of the correct religion."

It's not the same thing at all. Presumably churches, mosques, and synagogues are entirely funded by the interest groups that run them?

Whereas state schools are largely funded by the taxpayer, albeit some with a 'specially interested contribution' being made by certain 'special interest groups'.

I can understand that the govt might be relieved to have any pressure removed from the overcrowded state system, but where do they draw the line? Will we be welcoming schools partly funded by scientology / moonies / any loon with a desire for social control with open arms just because they 'free up places'?

Dont know if this is typical bud dds old rc primary

we non rc got in

63%catholic children
67%catholic teaching staff.

if its undersubscribed you may be ok,

if over then noc rc be right at bottom dont think you would.

plus by way takes whole year course then ceremony at easter to covert to rc its lentgth process.

"plus by way takes whole year course then ceremony at easter to covert to rc its lentgth process"
that's for an adult to convert
to baptise a child its one evening class

I was under the impression that they would only baptise child if one parent converted.I guess depends on the preist and the parish.

It probably does depend on the church, but I know a child recently baptised at our church whose parents aren't catholic. Its generally strict about attendance etc and the school is over subscribed, but I guess the parents convinced them that they would be supporting a catholic upbringing
Its quite hard to do the conversion course, its a big time commitment and not at all flexible, so maybe the parents showed interest in doing it sometime but couldn't do it this year because of work etc

I have just revisited the schools website and found this quote "We are a fully inclusive school - we welcome families from all backgrounds, abilities, faiths, cultures and race. "

I assume this means they wont mind if my son is not catholic?

OP you need to look at the admission categories (from 1 to.. depends some go up to 5, some go on past 15!)

then look at which you fall into

then find out where their cut off has been for the last few years (i.e. is it all that fit into 1, 2 and 3 and then some 4)

our local catholic school would say the same, but their actual cut off is the weekly attenders in catchment one (which is not no1, things like children in care, and weekly attendeers in catchment with siblings at the school take up the higher catagories).. so even monthly attenders in catchment with siblings in the school are bellow the cut off

Whereas in another local one, they've been cutting off at in catchment other faiths with some from the next category (i.e. out of catchment other faiths) getting in in the last few years

( the categories are different for different schools by the way)

It is quite unusual for the admission criteria to not be on the school's website

Its not on there that I can see. Your post confused me... Lol I have no idea where to find all this information!

sorry, right

its not usually a separate tab all to itself, its usually a link to a pdf on the same page as uniform policy, absence policy etc etc

so each school has an admission policy, which is made up of priority categories. Faith schools can make their own (so long as they prioritise children in care so that usually takes up priority no 1), and state school ones are set by the council so they are the same as each other (in this council anyway)

when you apply to the school, the council asks the school which category you are in, then the council fills the catagories in order of preference. So say there are 60 places and 30 people with foster children apply, and 30 people from category 2 apply for it as their first chioce, then noone from 3 or bellow will get in!

Here is an example. This may NOT be the same catagories as your local school, for example some have no sibling priority at all and some place siblings attending the school as a high priority.

At this particular school for the last few years everyone from 1-5 got in with some from 6 getting in. Noone from 7-10 has got in in recent years. This can vary if the number of people putting it as a preference change or if the class sizes change. Also if class sizes at OTHER local schools expand it can change the amt of categories of all local schools getting into them IYKWIM

1.Siblings of children who were in the school prior to July 2002 and who are still at the school.

2.Siblings of children who joined the school after July 2002 whose parents are committed members of (taken in order):
X or Y Church

Z Church

other Church of England Churches in the Deanery

any other member church of Churches Together in England or the Evangelical Alliance,

3.Children of families who are new to the school who are committed members of X Church or Y Church.

4.Children of families who are new to the school who are committed members of Z

5.Children of families who are new to the school who are committed members of other Church of England Churches in the Deanery.

6.Children of families who are new to the school who are committed members of any other member church of Churches Together in England or the Evangelical Alliance.

7.Siblings of children not covered by Categories 1 and 2 who live in the catchment area.

8.Siblings of children not covered by Categories 1 and 2 who live outside the catchment area.

9.Children of new families not covered by the above categories who live in the catchment area.

10.Children of new families not covered by the above categories who live outside the catchment area.