KS2 Year 5, Level 4b & 3C??

[Leaveitbabe]

Forgive me if this has been answered but I cannot get a clear answer via google. DOE pointed me here:

www.education.gov.uk/schools/teachingandlearning/assessment/keystage2/pupil/b00206193/ks2-results/level-threshold-tables

DD is Y5 and achieved
3C in handwriting this sounds low even though she has a glowing report for her handwriting i.e. very neat etc.
4b in Literacy and Mathematics

What do these scores mean?

Many thanks in advance.

[MajorBumsore]

Are you sure it's in handwriting and not writing (ie the content)? I have been teaching for 12 years and never known levels to be given for handwriting.

[Losingitall]

It's writing - the content.

"English" as we knew it.

[Leaveitbabe]

Ah, yes, you are probably correct. I skimmed the report this morning and knowing my daughter that would make sense!

[Shouldacouldawoulda]

Strange that writing and literacy are separate- would be clearer if they did reading, writing and speaking and listening as 3 areas. But maybe she is an articulate child who reads well but her writing is still catching up?

[letseatgrandma]

I presume it's a 3c for writing and a 4b for maths and reading? Literacy generally isn't given as a separate score unless it's a combined reading/writing level? The 'expected' level (rather than the average) at the end of y5 is 3a/4c so it looks like a great maths/reading score, but a bit below expected for writing. Handwriting is pretty irrelevant (though good handwriting is always a plus!)-it's more the content/structure/word choices they will be assessing.

Though sub levels don't really exist anyway ;)

[RosemaryandThyme]

It's not great results really - pretty average to low average - did you get the feeling that others in the class were doing better this year ?

Sorry if she's been struggling or has a SEN, assuming she has no difficulties learning I'd be a bit dissapointed with those scores to be honest.

[Feenie]

Have you misread, RosemaryandThyme? This child is in Y5 - 4b is the expected level for the end of Year 6, so Maths and Reading are above average in Y5.

3c is very low though, and needs addressing. She would have been on a writing intervention in my school with a score that low.

[RosemaryandThyme]

Didn't mis-read - just of the view that the expected levels as set are actually a bit low for the average child for maths and reading.
Even from the early years profiles the maths boxes seem to be so much easier to achieve (box 9 - bit of understanding of numbers to 20) compared to english (box 9 - understands and uses common punctuation) - and it carries on through the maths papers in primary, very little challenging stuff for the average child in my view - possibly the new EYFS will start to address this as they are (in theory) toughening up the maths side.
So in terms of an individual child reaching their max potential I would hope for an above expected score in maths and reading, and expected scores for english with correlation between reading and spelling.

[letseatgrandma]

I would hope for an above expected score in maths and reading

But she has got an above expected score in maths and reading!

[RosemaryandThyme]

Well not really

Year one = level one
year two = level two
surely year five she could be getting level 5 ?
slight deviations for a/b/c so Y5 4a or 5 would be good no ?

[letseatgrandma]

Well not really
Year one = level one
year two = level two
surely year five she could be getting level 5 ?
slight deviations for a/b/c so Y5 4a or 5 would be good no ?

No.

National expectations are
Y2-2b
Y6-4b

so, by default- Y4=3b.

Expectation for Y5 is between the levels for Y4/Y6-ie a 3a/4c

[LadyWellian]

Rosemary according to my Y7 DD's school report which I read yesterday, all children are expected to achieve at least a level 5 by the end of KS3 - that's Y9, not Y5! (though I do think a 5 at the end of Y9 would be aiming a bit low in any of the core subjects).

What has been clear to me is that there is a lot of level inflation at KS2. DD has made huge leaps this year but some of her levels (even in subjects where she has made the most progress) are now below what they apparently were at the end of Y6.

[seeker]

So, rosemaryandthyme- you would expect all children to get above average scores?

[PastSellByDate]

Hi Leavitbabe:

At the bottom of the Mumsnet Education page "Progress through the [National Curriculum] levels" - there is a nice chart which shows what the notional average child should be achieving at the end of each school year. Link here: www.mumsnet.com/learning/assessment/progress-through-national-curriculum-levels

So for Y5 according to these pages a notional average child should be doing work at NC Level 4C.

So 3c Writing (which I think we all agree is content not formation of letters) is a bit low and clearly needs work.

4b for reading/ maths - sounds slightly above average and doing well.

If you're having a parent/ teacher meeting I'd talk to the school about your DD's writing. Try and get at what the problem is - vocabularly, punctuation, structure, focus, etc... can all be issues that she may need to work on. See if the teachers can't give you some ideas of what to work on over the summer; however, some obvious ideas include:

Have your DD send postcards to friends, family, even teachers - and really say something, don't allow just a quick 'Hi! Having a good time'. Insist she really writes something.

Encourage your DD to keep a diary. Write about the things she enjoys or the things that bother's her.

Encourage DD to write reviews of what she's been reading.

Also - get her reading progressively more complicated books. The more she reads the better. Maybe join a summer reading club at a local library.

HTH

[RosemaryandThyme]

Not quite seeker - I would anticipate that average children perform better in reading and maths than the folk who set the standards expect.

[Littleplasticpeople]

Not really sure where you are coming from rosemary I have taught year 5 for years and would view a 4b as a good score at the e d of year 5. 3c in writing, though by no means unusual, is usually inthe 'booster' group region I.e. not a sen issue but requiring some intervention.

The top end children in year 5 will usually achieve 4a/5- this might be only a few per class. IME more will be at that level in Maths than any area of literacy.

[Feenie]

Weird thread to air your erm...against the grain views, Rosemary....

[seeker]

"Not quite seeker - I would anticipate that average children perform better in reading and maths than the folk who set the standards expect."

And this is different from expecting everyone to do better than average exactly how?

[seeker]

Actually, yes, sorry- this is a wholly inappropriate thread for this side debate and i'm feeding it,Apologies, op.

[bigTillyMint]

RosemaryandThyme is Goves user name

[RosemaryandThyme]

because the "everyone" in your statement includes everyone - everyone is not average - many are below.

[RosemaryandThyme]

whoops sorry yes - me too - will go off to be weird elsewhere.

[seeker]

Can somebody explain to RosemaryandThyme what average means? I would do it myself, but my head might explode.

[EllenJaneisnotmyname]

Funnily enough 50% are below average!

[RosemaryandThyme]

No, - that's a fallacy of average calculations - 50% of children wouldn't be below average - the high and low scores pull-up or deflate an average figure - so if your in a class with a lot of strugglers the average say maths score will be lower than if your in a class of very bright kids.
what I'm saying is that the child who has no learning problems will be capable of exceeding the 4b for end of year 6 figure that is frequently described as expected progress.
I believe this because from day one of pre-school the maths standards are set too low and this low setting continues to grow year on year.