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Help with school appeal

40 replies

MrBloomEatsVeggies · 04/05/2011 20:41

Very gutted that DS didn't get into his school. I'm planning to appeal, although I appreciate I'm unlikely to win. I'm going to appeal on prejudice grounds.

My 1st choice school is very hot on discipline, the school he has been allocated does not. I feel he will run wild at the school he is allocated (in fact, I'd say it's almost guaranteed). I'm putting this argument very, very succinctly on here, but these are the very bare bones of my appeal...obviously, on appeal day I hope to have more to say than that!

Does anyone think I have grounds for an appeal? Am I wasting my time? Or can I build an appeal case out of it?

All replies gratefully received. Also, I'm No.4 out of 9 on the waiting list, does anyone know the average length of time it takes to be offered a place, if at all.

I have to file an appeal pretty soon, and I have no idea what I should put as my case for appeal in my email (to start the ball rolling). Any advice there would be good too, if at all possible.

I know that everybody must be fed up with appeal talk now!! Really sorry, but am pretty stressed.

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Merle · 04/05/2011 20:48

Is this primary or secondary?

What evidence do you have that school A is better on discipline than school B?

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MrBloomEatsVeggies · 04/05/2011 20:56

It's primary. The evidence is from Ofstead, school A acheived oustanding for discipline ( I also visited the school, the headmistress was obviously very proud of the discipline standards). The school as a whole was graded a 2.

School B's Ofsted report stated that discipline was lacking and was given 3 for discipline), the school as a whole was graded a 3.

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MrBloomEatsVeggies · 04/05/2011 20:56
  • Ofsted/ achieved - sorry, rush typing.
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Dinosaurhunter · 04/05/2011 20:58

I will be watching this thread with interest !
My ds also got his second choice school (primary) and the reason we chose the first school was their excellent approach to behaviour, the allocated school is fine but just not what I wanted iykwim?

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MrBloomEatsVeggies · 04/05/2011 21:01

Dinosaur, I know exactly what you mean. I've always thought that if the discipline's there (firm but fair approach), then you're halfway to achieving decent schooling. Plus my son needs it, he runs me ragged!

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MrBloomEatsVeggies · 04/05/2011 21:03

Unfortunately our allocated school is not fine, it's pretty bad, put it was catchment and I didn't DS want to be sent miles away to school.

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MrBloomEatsVeggies · 04/05/2011 21:04
  • but. Spelling has gone to pot tonight, blame the stress Smile
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sunnyday123 · 04/05/2011 21:15

Have you spoken to any parents at the school and how their children are getting on? A grade 3 is satisfactory and up to 50% of schools get this grade i think so they can't all be bad!

Satisfactory is what it is - meeting the grade- as even though we all want the best, if it wasn't doing enough it would have got a grade 4 so you can be slightly reassured by that.

I think you need to think of better reasons for your appeal though as every other parent could use that one and think it'll do you more harm than good. You may be better listing benefits of the school you want. What are its strengths and why they suit your DC?

There are some experts on here you will come and give you better advice but they will likely tell you that if this is an infant class size appeal (i.e. classes re 30, 60, 90 etc) you wont win at all unless you demonstrate a mistake was made. In my LEA they wont even let you go to an appeal panel unless you demonstrate a mistake before hand when you submit papers.

Good luck anyway

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teacherwith2kids · 04/05/2011 21:19

I would say that unless your child has a particular medical condition or special need (documented by a relevant professional) that requires an unusually structured environment, then you have no grounds for appeal.

You cannot appeal simply because you would prefer the other school - that is obvious, you put it first - but for an ICS Infant Class Size appeal to be upheld then there has to be some misapplication of the admissions criteria. An example of this would be if they had overlooked the fact that you had a statement of special eductaional need, naming the school in question as being the only one that would meet your child's needs. Or if there was a sibling that has been overlooked. Or they have measured distance wrong.

What do you mean 'prejudice'? If you believe that the admissions criteria have been applied fairly (read them), what grounds are there for a claim of 'prejudice'??

4th of 9 - it depends. Some schools have very tiny numbers turning places down each year. Others have a much hiigher turnover e.g. as children move house or as some go private or as they win appeals to other schools. My daughter's class has just admitted the first child from the waiting list since she started school. She's in Year 3, so that is a year of 60 in which there has been one person move in 4 years.....

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Dinosaurhunter · 04/05/2011 21:23

Hi I'm not going to appeal but have put ds on the waiting list, and feel quite positive (sort of) the thing I have on my side is they now only do the one intake round here so I'm hoping parents of younger children will defer their places therefore freeing up some places !

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MrBloomEatsVeggies · 04/05/2011 21:32

Hi Sunday, I'm not saying that grade 3 is bad, I would still have wanted school A if it had achieved a grade 3, on the basis of it's discipline standards.

I know a fair few parents at the school (DS1 goes to the attached pre-school), and they are forever complaining about the unruly children spoiling the lessons etc. The parents of the said unruly pupils complain that the teachers can't control them, and they're fed up of being dragged to school.

I have watched the wild children in the playground when I've been to pick up DS1, I've seen them throwing trikes, chairs and shoes (!) at other children. I've heard them effing and blinding. I've seen the playground assistants ineffectual methods of dealing with them.

DS1 will gravitate towards them, the rougher the better for him. I know how this is going to go, believe me.

I'm not considering a class size appeal, as I know I have no chance. I just need some idea of how I can turn my rubbish words/argument into a good one.

The strengths of school A are multitude.

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MrBloomEatsVeggies · 04/05/2011 21:35

teacher, from what I've gathered 'prejudice' is the word used for problems that would be caused by going to the allocated school. In DS's case, problems that would be caused by lack of discipline.

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sunnyday123 · 04/05/2011 21:38

i understand as i have a similar school near me! Although i disagree its the teachers fault - for kids to be that unruly and disrespectful at school they must be equally bad at home. Are there no other schools you could get to with spaces available? Even if you have to travel further? One good thing is that those kids won't be in your DS class, so what are the kids in the preschool like who will be in his class?

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MrBloomEatsVeggies · 04/05/2011 21:41

Ok, the crux of the issue is this. DS1 is badly behaved, there are no other words for it. If he mixes with other badly behaved children he will be even more badly behaved. I will be the mother of the child everyone else complains about.

He needs structure and firm discipline. I struggle to get him to toe the line and I am borderline strict. If he cocks up his primary school years, the bench will be set for the rest of his school career, unless a miracle happens. I know this to be true as I have experienced it before.

I am desperate for this not to happen.

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MrBloomEatsVeggies · 04/05/2011 21:42

sunny, they're a mix really. Some quiet 'good' children, some unruly ones (DS1 is one of them).

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clam · 04/05/2011 21:47

You've made a lot of the word 'discipline.' I'm not aware that Ofsted even use that term, and certainly not to state there's a "lack of it."
I'm curious to know what all those parents at School B who "are fed up of being dragged to school" about their children's poor behaviour are doing to support the school in dealing with it at home as well.

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bluegiraffe · 04/05/2011 21:50

Dinosaurhunter: as far as I understand it, parents who defer their allocated places for their children do not lose their places at the school and their child will still start at some point in this school year ... so they won't be freeing up any spaces....

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MrBloomEatsVeggies · 04/05/2011 21:59

Ofsted do use that term.

I know what you're saying about dealing with behaviour at home, but it doesn't help me in this situation. I can't go to their parent's and say 'Please deal with your child's behaviour because it's going to have an impact on MY son and he's starting in September'.

I appreciate that it would be immensely helpful for any school to have pupils that are taught good behaviour, respect etc at home, but it's not happening right now in the school that DS1 has been allocated.

And right now is my problem. If anyone could guide me, anyone who has experience of the appeals process, or could give me an idea of where to start, I'd be extremely grateful.

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GiddyPickle · 04/05/2011 22:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

admission · 04/05/2011 22:36

Sorry but panels are not allowed to differentiate appeals based on the idea that one school's discipline is better than the other. The presumption is that all schools will have appropriate discipline policies in place, even though I fully accept that there are differences between different schools.
I would tend to shift the emphasis from discipline to the way that the school operates - much more structured approach in class and to play. It is in effect saying the same thing but can actually be presented as a reason especially if you can show instances of previous situation where lax approach have caused problems for your son. It is however still a relatively weak arguement for admission.
As you have been allocated the catchment school I would have to say that you will probably need a better set of reasons to gain admission to your preferred school which is presumably further away.
I would have to say to you that any school is not there to give a child discipline, that has to come from the home in the first instance, the school is simply reinforcing the acquired attribute. Your posts come across as you are not able to control your son, which I hope is not the case.

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teacherwith2kids · 04/05/2011 22:59

Dinosaur - I was going to post the same as Blue Giraffe.

If a school has 30 places in reception, and they are allocated to 30 pupils who have the strongest claim under the admissions arrangements, it doesn't matter whether those children start in September, January or Easter, those places are regarded as 'filled' and cannot be given to another child.

If a parent decided to defer their child for a full year (only legal for 'summer born' children as the term after they term 5 is the first term of Year 1 for them) then their child would indeed free up a place in Reception because their only option is to go for a place in Year 1. HOWEVER, this is vanishingly rare, partly because most parents value the Reception year and also because in popular schools there is frequently no place for a child to start in year 1.

So if you are relying on parents to defer for a term or two, that will not give you a place. And if you are expecting some to defer for a full year, it is very rare and you should probably not rely on it as a strategy to get a place.

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MrBloomEatsVeggies · 05/05/2011 22:14

'Your posts come across as you are not able to control your son, which I hope is not the case'.

No, it's not the case..I was getting flustered because I felt a little misunderstood. I was hammering home a point a little over dramatically!! I am able to control him (usually Grin).

Anyway, I feel a little calmer today. I think what I was looking for was for someone to say 'Right, what are your issues & here is how you can successfully present them in an articulate and appeal winning way'. Which is a tad unreasonable I accept ( however, should anyone feel like doing that, please feel free Wink).

Some good advice and corrections, I have embarrassed myself by thinking (nay, stating) class size/prejudice were different kinds of appeals.

I am trying to formulate an appeal, it's hard going though, as I've not done anything like this before and everyone else seems so knowledgeable.

Still open to advice if anyone has any. Wish me luck.

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GiddyPickle · 05/05/2011 22:55

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

bubblecoral · 05/05/2011 23:08

I would agree with everything GiddyPickle has said, but I just want to add that I know where you are coming from when you get confused with the whole appeal thing and offer some sympathy. I'm doing a secondary school appeal at the moment, and the amount of stuff there is to know about the whole process is incredibly overwhelming. I can't believe how much I have learned in the last couple of months about it all, I was genuinely completely clueless at the start.

You will get there, just keep reading whatever you can about it. Knowing where to start is definatlely the hardest bit!

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southofthethames · 06/05/2011 19:36

If it's any consolation OP, many primary teachers I've spoken to say number 4 on the waiting list is very hopeful but of course it's not a guarantee and the place can come up ANY time from now till Sept (don't go on summer holiday without daily access to your phone messages!!). They seem to think that anything less than 20 is quite hopeful! You might want to think about home educating till a place at a good school comes up, if you are concerned about your DS learning bad behaviour from unruly kids (throwing trikes certainly sounds very serious, esp if the staff do not institute punishments like timeouts for it....I would call that a rating 4 for discipline!). It's been mentioned before but just to say again that for reception age some nurseries are certified to provide early years education and you can use your free/subsidised early years allowance to pay/help pay for it, until a place at your preferred school turns up (hopefully before year 1).

THe others have already posted tips about your appeal, but do stay hopeful and keep your fingers crossed for that waiting list to move! I do think your DS has a good chance of a place coming up.

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