Changing schools, finally, but it's really complicated!

[CabbagefromaBaby]

We've had a problem with another child in ds1's class for a couple of years now. Nothing that the school have tried has worked despite them having got serious about it last term, and implemented a few ideas.

I'm so fed up with waiting for them to do something effective that I've pretty much decided to move ds1 to another school.

He has loads of friends where he is and doesn't want to move but last night he actually asked me to move him, as he cannot cope with what's happening any longer.

So I called his old school and they have a place in his year. I've just had to go online and change ds2's application as he starts in Sept, and so I've put the 'new' school (nearer our old house) as his first choice. However speaking to the LEA they didn't seem to think he would get in as a sibling as ds1's application wouldn't be procedded in time, however we can appeal if he is turned down because ds1 should be there before the summer term.

I'm really confused and not sure what to do.

If anyone has any advice it would be appreciated...but I don't want to end up with two children at different schools, or worse, no place for ds2 at all.

[threefeethighandrising]

Goodness, that is a dilemma! I don't know what the rules are so I can't be much help there. I suppose the worst case scenario is that your DS2 starts at the 'wrong' school and then changes later.

My mum used to sit on appeals, and they have very strict guidelines AFAIK. Lots of people used to turn up and try to appeal on the basis of things that the appeals panel weren't actually able to consider. Is there somewhere you can go to get clarification on whether you are likely to win an appeal on this basis I wonder?

[admission]

Sorry the LA are getting this wrong. If the school has a place now for DS1, then you need to go to the LA and ask them for the place immediately. They have no alternative but to give you the place.
There is realistically no reason he cannot be in the school by the beginning of February if the LA get their finger out at which point you need to advise the LA that DS2 now has a sibling at the school. I presume that you have changed the preference within the timescale required for DS2 and simply pointing out that they now need to treat ds2 under the sibling criteria should not create any problems.
The whole point is that it is the admission criteria as it applies on the date of the places being allocated. If DS1 is in the school on that date then DS2 must be counted as a sibling criteria. If DS1 is not in the school on that date then yes it will be probably on distance and DS2 may well not get in. If you then go to appeal you will probably loose because it is the circumstances on the date of the places being offered, the fact that DS1 is subsequently in the school is not a relevant reason to admit on appeal, especially as it is likely to be an infant class size appeal.

[CabbagefromaBaby]

thankyou both very much. Yes, I have changed ds2's choices within the allotted time - I think it closes on Friday/Saturday online.

I printed off and sent in the in year admissions forms yesterday, first class recorded. I ticked the sibling box for the new school (as well as second choice current school!) for ds2, explaining in the little box that his brother was in the process of an in year admission and should be at the school before September...should I change that to February? I'm not sure WHEN places get allocated? But we find out in March.

The school said that if I appealed and ds1 was already there, it would be an automatic acceptance by the school, but I don't know how accurate that is.

Thanks again, am in a slight wobble about all this!

[prh47bridge]

I would say that you expect him to be there by February. And I would chase the LA to allocate the place for ds1 immediately. Ring them today!

The school is being a little optimistic. It is up to the appeal panel, not the school. Whether or not an appeal would succeed depends on whether they think the LA has made a mistake if it is an infant class size appeal, which most primary school appeals are. So you would be making the case that the LA should have given sibling priority but failed to do so. Depending on the dates involved the LA may try to make the case that no mistake was made as you weren't entitled to sibling priority at the relevant time.

[CabbagefromaBaby]

Oh many thanks. That helps to know how appeals work a bit. I tried to ring just now but they finish at 5 so will check tomorrow morning if they've received our form.

I didn't know I could nag them so will explain the situation and ask someone nicely to hurry it up!

Have changed the online app for ds2 to February, as well.

thankyou!

[admission]

Please do nag them to get a place for DS1. Yes it is a very busy time of year for them but that is not an excuse to not do what they should.
You should also make sure that you take a record of all telephone conversations and out of preference get it confirmed in writing. The ability for you to argue successfull at an appeal will depend crucially on dates.
So for instance if you email them and say I want that place and then it takes them 5 weeks to come back to you and by that time the place has gone, then you have an arguement that the LA were being unreasonable. It only takes a phonecall to the school to confirm there is a place and then a letter to you. Under those circumstances you will probably win an appeal but if you have no evidence then the panel will have to accept the LA's word that they responded appropriately.

[CabbagefromaBaby]

Oh blimey. Ok, will email tonight as well.

And keep a record of it all.

thankyou so much. I had no idea about any of this!

[threefeethighandrising]

"Is there somewhere you can go to get clarification on whether you are likely to win an appeal on this basis I wonder?"

Silly me, it's mumsnet of course

[CabbagefromaBaby]

I did ring this morning, as well as email last night. It seems their telephone representatives have been given their line and are sticking to it...zero advice, cannot comment, it will take three weeks to ascertain whether the school still has the place ( bollocks it will ) and they don't care if we are in a difficult situation.

So three weeks it is - and it better bloody be three weeks because she did seem to think if he was there by feb, the allocations in March could be appealed against.

I guess it depends on really how long they take to contact school (has to be done by letter apparently!?!) and whether ds2 has been given his slot by then.

Hoping it works out - but not feeling totally confident.

Thanks again for all the brill advice and help. Where would I be without you.

[prh47bridge]

In my view this is unacceptable. They can find out if the school has a place by picking up the phone. They only reason I can think of for insisting on a letter is so that they have it in writing in case something goes wrong. Even then, have these people never heard of email?

Time is everything here. I would be tempted to ring them again and ask to speak to someone more senior.

The allocations in March can always be appealed against - that is an automatic right. However, no-one can guarantee that you will win an appeal so you want to do everything possible to make sure the LA get ds1 in the school immediately and give ds2 sibling priority.

[CabbagefromaBaby]

Thankyou...I did email as well, I'm hoping they will answer that eventually - perhaps it might reach someone a little more helpful.

I'm not sure how to ask for someone more senior without sounding like a knob iyswim. Is there a way to find out who is director of that bit of the council?

[Miggsie]

Well, my friend rang his chosen school direct, they had a vacant place in the year, head teacher said bring your DD down, he did, head chatted to them both and offered the place on the spot and his DD started the next week.

Can you try that?

[CabbagefromaBaby]

I think that used to be how it worked, Miggsie...sadly it's changed recently. It has to go through the LEA now, which is a bit daft but it's what they do.

I rang again and they said they don't do it by phone call here. They have to write letters but they should reply within 5 working days...hmmm.

Well I have bashed my head against the wall for long enough this morning and will now place it in the hands of a higher power.

If it isn't meant to be, it isn't meant to be. we will manage.

[prh47bridge]

Yes, you do have to go through the LA - a change introduced in September last year by the last government. And what I meant wasn't that you should email them but that they should email the school to check whether or not there is a place available rather than writing to them.

The admissions booklet which will be on your council's website may tell you who is in charge. The information should also be elsewhere on the website but it may not be easy to find.

[CabbagefromaBaby]

thanks very much...I'm not sure what to do now, as ds1's school has decided to get their act together and we might not need to change schools.

If I apply for ds2 to go to the new school, and then we decide to keep ds1 where he is, ds2 won't get a place where we are now. And I doubt I could appeal on the basis of sibling if I hadn't applied to this school initially as our first choice, because they will know we turned down the place at the new school.

However if we DO want Ds1 to go there, I need to have put it as first choice for Ds2, or he doesn't stand a chance of getting in.

If we don't get Ds1 into the new school anyway then Ds2 should be fine but I'm fairly sure there is a place.

I have NO idea what to do and the deadline is tonight.

Aaaarghhh.

[prh47bridge]

Having a sibling there isn't the basis of an appeal in any case. If there is a sibling and the LA are aware of this but fail to give sibling priority that would give you grounds for appeal.

As I understand it you will not get ds2 into the new school unless ds1 goes there. So put that as your first choice and ds1's current school as your second choice. That way if you move ds1 to the new school ds2 should get in there as well. If you leave ds1 at his current school ds2 is unlikely to get a place at the new school so will should end up at ds1's current school. The only way this doesn't work is if ds2 manages to get into the new school without needing sibling priority.

I hope that's clear. If not please say and I'll try to make it clearer.

[CabbagefromaBaby]

Yes, yes, that is clear - I have spent the last hour or two just going over different possibilities and have come to the same conclusion, but by a different, less well informed route!
I have decided to leave the new school as ds2's first choice in the hope that if we don't end up moving ds1, they will consider ds2 for a place at the current school as ds1 is a sibling there already...not exactly sure how this will work, but I do know that if we want to move ds1, this is basically our last chance before it becomes exceedingly complicated - ie once ds2 is also settled in one school and trying to find two simultaneous spaces in eg class 2 and 4, would be a nightmare.

Also two sets of emotions to deal with regarding being moved...so it's now or never.

thankyou for talking me through this. I want to send you come chocolate or something, I feel I have had the benefit of your services (and those of the others on the thread) for nothing!

But sincere thanks

[admission]

As you have now put in writing that you want the place for DS1 to the LA, I would now go back to the school and tell them that you have done that and confirm that the place is still there. Just give them a letter confirming that you have asked the LA for the place, naming your son in the letter.

By creating this papertrail, if this apparently useless shower at the admissions office do somehow mess it up and they say that there is no place because they have allocated it to somebody else, then go to appeal. It is all about the date. If there was a place and you applied for the place and somehow your application got lost, forgotten about or just ignored and somebody comes along after you applied and gets the place then you have been disadvantaged and the LA guilty of maladministration. Should be an easy case for any panel member to agree to.

[CabbagefromaBaby]

Thankyou, that's a good idea...I will write a letter just confirming it to the school. I did phone them and tell them I had applied, but that could easily be forgotten in the event of a cock up.

Spent the minutes up to midnight watching the clock ticking and wondering if I had done the right thing! I hope so.