"collective worship" ???

[mummynoseynora]

I am starting to look at the local school prospectus (dd will be starting next year)

this is a 'normal' non religious run school - ie not CofE / catholic etc - and yet in the prospectus it talks about 'collective worship' I have read up a bit and this appears to be law - where references to the bible are used and prayer etc.... I believe I can withdraw DD from it but I wouldn't want to single her out

I just find it rather odd that a non religious based school legally has to do this ? If I wanted religion taught to her as fact I would have sent her to a religious school..... I am confused!

I have no problem with the RE provision as I want her to be aware of religion and other cultures etc, but myself and DH are atheist, that aside given the large number of religions prevalent in this country nowadays surely many people withdraw / are confused by this?

Does anyone have any examples of this part of assembly? maybe it was just worded badly?

[EddieIzzardismyhero]

No, sadly not worded badly. It is the law .

I wouldn't worry too much about it (dh and I are also both atheists so I know where you're coming from) as, depending on the school, it's often not that religious in content.

The first school I taught at always used to fail it's OFSTED on the collective worship aspect cos the head was an atheist and refused to observe it!

When I was doing assembly we would do a story with a moral and then some quiet time for reflection which children could use for prayer if they wanted to but no pressure to do so.

It sucks, but as we've just been discussing on another thread, ain't gonna change any time soon.

[EddieIzzardismyhero]

Oh, and you're right about being able to withdraw your DD but I'm with you on not singling her out. I wouldn't do that to my DC either, but some parents did.

We had a local church which used to come and do assemblies once a term and even I used to ask to be allowed out of those as they were so awful. You can always ask to observe one of these assemblies and see what you think? Or just leave it.

I'm a firm believer that your DC will take the lead on issues such as religion from you and not from the school (I'm truly hoping they do anyway!!).

[mummynoseynora]

Thanks for the info Eddie - was really thrown by it and all ready to ask lots of questions when we go to look around until I googled it!

[DreamTeamGirl]

Its really not a big deal TBH

They just tell a parable or fable or something- with a broadly Christian 'be nice to each other' feel to it, then have a moment of quiet where some of them pray and some poke each other and try not to giggle

If you really object you will have to opt out, as we do actually live in a Christian country ...

[OldLadyKnowsNothing]

This, from the National Secular Society, might be interesting for you.

[EddieIzzardismyhero]

I only know all this cos I'm a teacher - I think a lot of parents are unaware!

I was so lucky to have taught in a school where the head shared my views on religious education in school, but I know many schools where this isn't the case.

It's very wrong IMO, but it's an oft-discussed subject on MN and, as you can imagine, opinions are deeply divided!

[mummynoseynora]

very true - we are very keen for her to believe what she wants to believe - not push our views onto her or have others do the same so if it IS very pro christianity not sure how I will feel..... might ask questions anyway and see how they go down?

[EddieIzzardismyhero]

Yes, that's what I'll be doing when the time comes (my two are both pre-school).

It's so hard though. I invited a vicar in to do a talk once on the Christian church as part of RE. It was around the time that The Da Vinci Code came out, and one of my more articulate kids was asking him about it and whether it was far more likely that Jesus did have children than the story told in the bible . The vicar turned around and said, "ah well the difference Jack is that The Da Vinci Code is just a story while The Bible is fact"!

I was bloody furious but could hardly have a big argument with the vicar in front of my class so had to hold my tongue until he'd gone and then managed to talk to the class about the "some people believe . . . " etc.

[mummynoseynora]

DreamTeam I do know this is a christian country, however on applying for a place at a non faith based school I am sure I am allowed to be a little surprised when this is my first child surely ?
Thanks for the info on the vagueness though - very useful to know


Oh Eddie don't get me started on the whole 'bibe is fact' thing... whole nother thread! I personally feel that faith is a very good thing when treated correctly, I just don't have any myself what with all these 'fictional works' being treated as fact! digression over!

[EddieIzzardismyhero]

Aw, go on, I love a good religious debate at 10.30pm!!

[mummynoseynora]

hahahahahahah better not or people will my my actual point

[EddieIzzardismyhero]

[mummytime]

The point is that unless people like you campaign and get the majority of people in this country to support you, then non-faith (not secular we don't have any) schools will still have to follow the government guidlines.

BTW: "It's so hard though. I invited a vicar in to do a talk once on the Christian church as part of RE. It was around the time that The Da Vinci Code came out, and one of my more articulate kids was asking him about it and whether it was far more likely that Jesus did have children than the story told in the bible . The vicar turned around and said, "ah well the difference Jack is that The Da Vinci Code is just a story while The Bible is fact"!

I was bloody furious but could hardly have a big argument with the vicar in front of my class so had to hold my tongue until he'd gone and then managed to talk to the class about the "some people believe . . . " etc."

I would be furious with your reaction, as that is religious indoctrination. As a class teacher you are in a position of extreme influence and you should not be pushing your views on those children. You would have done much better to just let it slide, the children had already shown they had their own cynicism.

[mrz]

mummynoseynora did you not have assemblies when you went to school? A story, any school news, possibly a song followed by a short prayer.

[treas]

Assemblies are nothing to worry about even at the Methodist School my dd attends - they are based on things like respect, responsibility, caring, thoughtfulness etc. All things that I'm sure you teach your dd as part of her everyday life.

Your school should have a Collective Worship Policy which should either be on their website or you can request a paper copy from the office.

My 7 yo dd's real problem comes to the actual RE lessons. Last term they had to produce a book detailing the story of Jesus. Although a bit fed up with having to do this dd said this was ok because it is just a story. What really annoyed her was they had to write a book blurb about the story and the teacher's example started 'This true story ...'

[EddieIzzardismyhero]

??? mummytime, in what way was my reaction religious indoctrination?

[EddieIzzardismyhero]

We are always taught in RE to be inclusive and say "some people believe . . . " no matter what religion we're talking about. I could have been a Jew/Muslim/Hindu (and had all those in my class) so why should a Christian vicar tell these children the bible is fact? One of my children was cycnical, not all.

I didn't wait for him to go and say, "btw that was a load of bloody rubbish and the bible is a work of fiction" tempted as I was .

[mrz]

I always say the same EddieIzzardismyhero

[MollysChambers]

Not sure that I would agree with religious indoctrination comment Eddie but he was a vicar! What else was he going to say? Think you were a bit unreasonable to be "bloody furious"... Vicars do actually believe that the bible is fact....

[Blu]

At DS's community school the 'collective worship' takes the form of singing various inspirational Bob Marley songs and The world's greatest, something inside so strong, etc, and reading poems.

I expect they rehearse a hymn for when Ofsted come in.

[EddieIzzardismyhero]

Lol *MollysChambers"! Fair point - but I think he could have phrased it in a better way bearing in mind I told him it was a mixed-faith class. "We believe the bible to be a fact", for example.

I take such great pains to be inclusive even when it goes against everything I believe - don't see why others can't do the same? If we'd been in church would have been a bit different.

[EddieIzzardismyhero]

Oh and I love the idea that I'm so influential I can turn everyone into an atheist - if only that were true!

[VoldemortsNipple]

My DD is 14.
She was baptised Catholic
Taken to mass regulary when she was younger
Went to a Catholic primary school
Made her first Holy Communion
Goes to a Catholic secondary school
Takes part in collective worship

Her beliefs are that Jesus did exist but he was not the son of God, and he did not perform miricles.

She says she is verging on being an Atheist.
So I wouldnt be too concerned about what your DD hears/learns in school. She will make up her own mind.

She has also learnt about all other major religions in RE. She is doing RE GCSE which is compulsory from September. From what Ive read in the sylabus, it could be called GCSE Ethics.

[EddieIzzardismyhero]

RE GCSE is compulsory from September??? What, in all schools?

Please tell me you're kidding .

[Habbibu]

There was an eraly day motion about this this year here. Apparently a lot of people suggested it when Nick Clegg was talking about the repeal of bad laws.

The "this is a Christian country" argument really irks me. It's not the law to be Christian, so why is it the law that children have to participate in "worshipping" something? By all means study religions and religiousness, alongside philosophy and ethics, but the worship thing is just odd. And yes, does smack of attempted indoctrination, even if it fails.