Can't handle this behaviour from my tween

(92 Posts)
iHeartTheoJames Sat 22-Jun-13 12:49:17

DD has always been strong minded but as she's got older her behaviour has been harder and harder to handle

I am going to try and bullet point it so it's clearer to read

She is condescending - "what are you getting upset over now?" "What have you lost now?"

Constant put downs, every dinner time she finds something to criticise, little put downs all the time, it's like she tries and make me earn her approval

The meals I cook have got to be her liking

She doesn't approve of my shopping "What did you buy this jam for?"

She steals and lies and then does elaborate theatrics to cover her tracks

Rude "I want you to wear your hair down, you look ugly with your hair up"

Nice as pie when she wants something, couldn't give a F* when she doesn't.

She is vindictive and lies to get me in trouble if I have done something that displeases her. She has almost got me in big trouble in the past with her fairytales

Constantly angry and resentful

An incredibly huge sense of entitlement

Does chores under duress. I ask her to please tidy the lounge for me and she tells me she has to do everything 'round here'. If I ask her to do something she tells me I do nothing and she has to do all the housework, doesn't answer when I pull her up on the inaccuracy of that. Any chores done, or cups of tea made, are remembered so she can then tell me how much she does for me

I find myself feeling so grateful during the short periods when she is sweet and nice. Find myself feeling so grateful when she considers other people apart from herself as it's such a rarity.

Is as sweet as sugar at school and with friends. I constantly get told what an angel she is!

Is this normal tween behaviour and am I just being over sensitive? If not, how on earth do I deal with this? I have tried 213 magic (which has improved things but there's still a long way to go) and also methods I read about in a book about strong willed children, but she's still so rude, lazy and entitled!

grants1000 Sat 22-Jun-13 17:39:35

post this in the Tweens section under Parenting I am sure you will get more responses.

Have you told her this upsets you? When I have cried because DS1 aged 11 has been vile it really gets to him, I would say seeing me hurt from his actions or behavior is worse than a bollocking.

iHeartTheoJames Sat 22-Jun-13 18:29:55

She has seen me cry, she just rolls her eyes and gives one of her 'mummy's being stupid again' looks

It's so bad I can't talk to her anymore, I am either met with anger or she rolls her eyes and ignores me.

Going to ask MN to move this post, thanks

RowanMumsnet (MNHQ) Sat 22-Jun-13 19:46:57

Hi there

We've moved this to Preteens now. Best of luck to the OP.

HeySoulSister Sat 22-Jun-13 19:53:01

Are you a lone parent op?

iHeartTheoJames Sat 22-Jun-13 19:53:36

yes I am

Thanks Rowan

Notmyidea Sat 22-Jun-13 20:03:12

I won't pretend I have all the answers, (I don't, I regularly come and lament my little horrors in the tweens section,) but what strikes me is that she seems to have no respect for you, (and clearly does know how to behave if she's angelic at school!) I think you need to get tough, set some rules and consequences if they are not followed. E.g she must speak to people respectfully or go to her room, if she doesn't like what's for tea and she can make herself a healthy alternative from what you give her permission to use in the fridge. If she starts to grumble see rule one.
Reward good behaviour with your trust in return.
They all try to seize power in the household, that's normal, but it's important not to let them and to insist on an attitude towards their nearest and dearest that will be tolerated later in life. Good luck!

TeenAndTween Sat 22-Jun-13 21:35:30

I have luckily not really had to deal with this kind of thing, but I agree with Notmyidea. If you don't get this sorted now think what she'll be like as a teen!

What is in your control to stop? pocket money, outside activities, being taken to visit friends? Can you use those as rewards for sustained polite behaviour?

iHeartTheoJames Sun 23-Jun-13 00:31:50

No she has no respect at all for me. I meant to say she also undermines me with her sibling and I am worried about her then repeating the cycle with them because then they will come to not respect me either

I do already send her to her room if she doesn't behave respectfully.

I am going to talk to her tomorrow and write a list of ground rules and expectations. The problem I have found in the past whenever I try and initiate anything is a roll of the eyes, a purse of the lips and this awful attitude of hers that I am some kind of nutter that she is forced to go along with.

Confiscating her itouch and/or kindle fire is usually a good motivator to get her to behave. It hasn't produced long term improvements in the past, so maybe I have been to quick to return it/them.

I lived in fear of my father growing up because of his temper and then after their divorce in fear of my mother and her wild mood swings and crazy ideas of discipline, I so wanted DD to have a happy childhood that I think I have been too soft and overcompensated for the guilt I feel about her not having a father and my own issues with my childhood

But this really can not go on, she has no idea of empathy and seems to be completely self obsessed and consumed and this will do her no favours in the future

Tomorrow I get tough...but I will probably come back here often for reassurance and ideas!

SavoyCabbage Sun 23-Jun-13 05:58:03

I'd go tough too. You don't have to be all shouty. She's probably not all that happy now and that's why she's being such a cow, so don't worry too much about making her unhappy.

Perhaps you could schedule a housekeeping meeting every week where you both sit down and plan what to have for meals during the week. Make sure you get some of your favourites in!

I did all our family food shopping from a really young age. My mum worked in a shopping centre and my dad dropped me off an hour before she finished and she met me at the check outs. As soon as I could drive, I was on my own.

The way she is speaking to you is awful. She needs to say "mum, I think your hair looks lovely when it's down. Why don't you do it like that again today". I would flush my dds itouch down the toilet if she was that rude to me. I'm not sure how helpful that would be though.

iHeartTheoJames Sun 23-Jun-13 08:46:06

reading this back the morning after I sound like a complete and utter doormat. I am not! I do pull her up, although I was so shocked when she told me I look ugly with my hair up I said nothing

I have confiscated her phone this morning and told her I am drawing up a list of rules and a contract of chores but so far she is refusing to engage and is sulking and watching peppa pig with her brother

Savoy, she seems so unhappy a lot of the time, she's so negative and pessimistic but says she doesn't know why. She's happy at school and doing well, she's very bright and she makes friends easily.

I had a dream this morning of just throwing her phone in the outside bin, but no, that wouldn't be helpful at all. Tempting though!

Flicktheswitch Sun 23-Jun-13 08:57:51

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SavoyCabbage Sun 23-Jun-13 09:07:44

I was thinking of this this afternoon when dd1 told me to take my hat off before we went in the library. It was embarrassing apparently.

Really, it's good that she is happy at school. A bit annoying for you, getting the shitty end of the stick though.

CrabbyBigBottom Sun 23-Jun-13 09:20:50

God it made me furious just reading this, OP. I wouldn't tolerate this kind of behaviour for a millisecond. angry

I don't really think I'm a good person to advise you, because I think most people on MN would think I'm a nasty mean mummy. If my 10yr old DD behaved like this she'd get such a tongue lashing that she'd be sore for days - when she moans about having to do things for me (which she often does, although she's generally a very helpful and loving girl) I point out all the things I do for her.

If she were treating me like your daughter I would confiscate her laptop and kindle and go on strike for a few days - let her know how it feels when you stop doing her meal preparation, cleaning, washing, taxi service, all the other things that she's taking for granted.

I'd suggest that you do a version of that, after which you draw up a contract of behaviour and expectations and come down on her like a ton of bricks when she is rude, disrespectful and insulting to you. Children (well anyone, really) will take you completely for granted if you let them and don't hold your boundaries.

As for the 'you look ugly with your hair up'... shock angry I would ask her straight out whether she would like you to start making negative comments about her appearance and personality? And ask her whether she thinks that that would be an acceptable thing to say to say to a friend? What makes her think that it's ok to speak like that to someone she loves?

You need to get angry, girl! wink

You need more of a backbone.

What do you say to her when she is rude?

I would look her directly I the eye and ask her what on gods earth makes her think it is acceptable to speak to anyone, let alone her mother like that. It would be delivered in a very authoritarian tone too.

Take her electric stuff away and tell her when you feel her attitude has improved enough to get them back and the change is consistent she can have them back. Until then tough.

As for the good stuff, tell her when she earns the money in the house she can buy exactly what she wants, until then shut up and don't be so bloody rude.

You need to reassert yourself and take control in a big way.

When you start seeing changes then you can sit down and have a chat about her maybe getting involved in helping plan meals and maybe come shopping and choose things she likes but until then you do have to get mercenary and stomp on this behaviour.

valiumredhead Sun 23-Jun-13 09:47:58

Personally I would confiscate her iPad and tell her it's up to her to earn it back with polite, considerate behaviour but it can be taken away at any given time if things go down hill again.

I think thus kind of back chat can become a habit really quickly and needs to be stopped asap.

I did the above with ds who is 12,I took his x box away and told him I would decide when he could have it back. That was bit of a shocker for him as he'd only ever had fixed term punishments before.

They really push their luck and it's up to us to redress the balance.

Wrt to the ugly hair comment-fucking hell,I would have come down on her like a ton of bricks, that is appalling. At the very least I would have grounded ds for being so nasty.

Any way, good luck, it's really hard, harder than when they were toddlers imosmile

valiumredhead Sun 23-Jun-13 09:49:29

Basically what madam posted!grin

Ooooh I like those kind of posts Valium!! wink

clam Sun 23-Jun-13 10:00:50

Who's the adult here? Who's in charge?

You need to take your power back, and I'm afraid my advice is to get mean and nasty. I KNOW that goes against your instincts and how you would like to be, but look where the nicey-nicey approach has got you.

First rule of asserting authority: don't get into debates. You do not have to give reasons for your decisions, as then they get argued against. Just say, "it's not up for discussion, just get on with it." If she answers back, "don't you DARE speak to me like that. Go to your room." Tell her you will not respond to any talk from her that is rude or disrespectful and there will be consequences. Do not tell her what those are as you won't have thought of them yet! that gives her the opportunity to weigh up whether it's worth calling your bluff. However, you MUST MUST MUST carry them out.
Balance this by being sweet and lovely when she is, but pull out the guns as SOON as her tone slips or those eyes start to roll. "I don't know which adults in your life think that eye-rolling is acceptable but you will NOT do it to me, is that clear?" If she asks why you're "being so horrid" tell her that her behaviour has been crossing a line recently and we need to get back to the lovely dd we used to know.

BrawToken Sun 23-Jun-13 10:00:57

I am sure you and she will get along better in a year or two. I think 10-14 are the worst years, my almost 16 year old has turned a massive corner in the last year and is a wee darling now most of the time. She was really difficult in all the ways you describe and seemed to want to push me to breaking point (also a single parent). I think they do this partly as a test (subconsciously maybe) to make sure you won't abandon them and they are reacting to all sorts of external stuff like school, relationship with their Dad, friendships, wanting stuff they can't have/afford, the media. Also hormones play a HUGE part in this. I favour the kill it with kindness and ignore the attitude approach which is not to say I haven't lost my rag sometimes! And BTW, my DD1 can still be a right wee bitch but there is light at the end of the tunnel now. No advice apart from count to 10, imagine you are watching your fights from a different perspective, count to 10, count to 10.... Remember your DD didn't ask for her life and probably compares it to her friends' and thinks hers is shite smile Hang in there x

sonlypuppyfat Sun 23-Jun-13 10:01:29

You have just described my DD shes 12 when she was at nursery I told her teacher that what ever I do is never good enough and she said and it never will be! She is as good as gold for the five minutes that you are buying her something. Nothing I do is right, she wants an i phone which will never happen but she's gone on about it for days. she always talks to me like shit but she's an angel for everyone else

BrawToken Sun 23-Jun-13 10:01:44

Clam and I are very different in our approaches smile

BrawToken Sun 23-Jun-13 10:04:17

Gosh I am actually swimming totally against the tide, worked for me though smile

clam Sun 23-Jun-13 10:11:32

Toughening up doesn't mean that you don't also understand their pre-teen angst, or that you don't also cuddle them and have fun and giggles along the way when they're on form.
But I have too much self-respect EVER to allow anyone to speak to me like that, particularly a child. And it's not good for her either. They want boundaries set, and this little girl sounds as though she's pushing and pushing until her mum finally sets some.
My dcs are mid-teens now (nearly 17 and nearly 15) and I can tell you I can't remember a time when either one has been rude. The thing about setting out your shop early on with regards to where your line is, means that you rarely have to use it afterwards. Nowadays the furthest I have to go is a raised eyebrow.
Works in the classroom too, where 11 year olds are my speciality. And I promise you they like me too!! wink

BrawToken Sun 23-Jun-13 10:19:42

Clam you sound great and so do your kids.

clam Sun 23-Jun-13 10:21:07

(are you being sarcastic??)

BrawToken Sun 23-Jun-13 10:23:05

No, not at all smile

LoveBeingUpAt4InTheMorning Sun 23-Jun-13 10:29:18

Op it sounds more like you are describing an EA dp than a dd.

You mentioned you are a single parent. What is the situation with her dad, is he around, does she see him, is she blaming you? Has she learnt this behavior from him?

I would recommend you read Hold Onto Your Kids by Gordon Neufeld. It will help you understand why.

MrsTomHardy Sun 23-Jun-13 10:30:53

So glad I found this thread.

It's geared me up to get tough with my 11 year old DS.
I know what I need to do but sometimes it's just so hard to follow things through sad

iHeartTheoJames Sun 23-Jun-13 10:43:33

Thank you. She has a problem with authority, has done since she started nursery. I followed the wrong advice early on from well meaning friends and 'professionals' who said if she felt listened to she would comply, all it resulted in was her running rings round me and it became much harder to establish better ground rules later on.

I have sat her down and she has written down a comprehensive set of house rules and expectations. She is now writing out a second copy for me to stick on the fridge while her copy goes on her noticeboard in her room. I am hoping that by writing it out a second time it gets committed to memory.

It has taken both her phone and her itouch being confiscated though.

She's got away with far too much for far too long and she knows how to play on my guilt to get away with things and also, I have so much going on all the time, I feel I can't fight the world outside and her inside so I have become passive out of exhaustion. I pull her up on things but not harshly enough. When I first started implementing the 123 magic method it was like I was counting to three every half hour! So it lost it's effectiveness, so I let some things go and as she started getting better I started getting stricter with the 123 and it worked well, but now she is slipping back to her old ways, every interaction is negative and it's constant stress. I am getting so depressed with everything. I need to start taking control, starting today with these rules.

iHeartTheoJames Sun 23-Jun-13 10:45:34

love I often think if she was a DP instead of a DD she would be given her marching orders pretty damn quick!!

Her dad isn't around, not heard hide nor hair of him since she was 3.

stitch I am going to check out that book now, thank you

valiumredhead Sun 23-Jun-13 10:46:19

Ds and I just had a run inhmm

He wanted one of us to run him down to tesco to get cooking ingredients for school tomorrow. He was really bolshy, didn't say please and was generally unpleasant.

He was given a warning by his dad to watch his manners.

He continued --the little git--wink

He was sent up to his room until he could speak in a civilized manner when asking someone to do a favour for him.

He came down nice as pie and his dad's just taken him shopping.

If we'd let it slide he takes it as a cue that we're ok with him speaking like that and he can continue and like someone said up thread (sorry, posting from my phone and can't see whole of thread when posting) I have FAR too much self respect to let anyone speak to me like that.

OP think of it like controlled crying. A lot of hassle and sleepless nights for a very short period of time brings lasting results.

I know a fab family therapist who never raises his voice, just holds up a hand and says clearly and firmly 'Its non Negotiable'

Try your hardest to speak loudly and clearly in an authoritative tone but not one that makes you sound as though you have lost control or she will sense this and start arguing.

It's really just breaking bad habits for both of you.

Good luck.

iHeartTheoJames Sun 23-Jun-13 10:49:24

Go Mr and Mrs Valium!

What's he making tomorrow?

iHeartTheoJames Sun 23-Jun-13 10:49:54

thank you Madame

valiumredhead Sun 23-Jun-13 10:50:13

I think the rules help, it helps to have something to refer to when they are kicking off.

And yes, of course they are hormonal and their emotions are all over the place but that's not an excuse to be rude. I see far too many friends whose kids are unbelievably rude to them and it's just met with an eye roll and muttering of 'tsk, hormones!'

I ignore mine Valium if they forget to say please or speak rudely, they never get further than asking for the third time before twigging!

Have had DS (8) say to friends that she can't hear you if you don't say please! smile

Exactly Valium, I am pregnant and super hormonal but doesn't mean I can opt out of being polite and respectful.

valiumredhead Sun 23-Jun-13 10:53:35

Thanks heartgrin

Again, what madam posted, it's short term pain for long term gain.

I do feel sorry for them though,I wouldn't be a teen againsad grin
Ds was worried the other day about his voice breaking and how he quite likes his voice and doesn't want it to change.

valiumredhead Sun 23-Jun-13 10:55:31

I have tried the ignoring but ds just became a master at saying please but on a really sarcastic tone insteadhmm grin

valiumredhead Sun 23-Jun-13 10:55:48

In not on

neolara Sun 23-Jun-13 10:58:18

Like others, I think the "getting a backbone" approach is definitely called for. But I would combine it with Lovebombing. It sounds like you and your dd need to reconnect in a loving way. Lovebombing may help you to do that.

clam Sun 23-Jun-13 10:59:46

"but ds just became a master at saying please but in a really sarcastic tone instead"

So you raise that eyebrow and say "Seriously? You think that tone's going to work?"

Benevolent dictatorship! You're in charge, but with their best interests at heart.

iHeartTheoJames Sun 23-Jun-13 11:01:50

I have another question

When you have confiscated all you can confiscate and they won't go to their room when you tell them to, what do you do then? There's nothing more I can do and she knows it so is just being openly defiant and doing as she pleases, with extra gusto because she's angry that I have confiscated her things

clam Sun 23-Jun-13 11:04:50

You stay calm and look unconcerned and busy with something or other. Do not start yelling - that's how she knows she's got to you. You just casually and pleasantly remark over your shoulder that the longer she stays out of her room not doing as you've told her, the longer it'll be before she gets her things back. "your choice, sweetheart." And continue to pretend to ignore.

valiumredhead Sun 23-Jun-13 11:08:02

Clam-ha, tried that toogrin he will argue with a brick wall that kid! Sending him up to his room works best as out instantly calms the situation down before it can escalate.

clam Sun 23-Jun-13 11:08:38

You see, I never shout. It implies a loss of control. And your number one objective here is to maintain control, even if it doesn't feel like it. You just have to get across that there's a core of steel in you that they're better off not messing with, in which case you'll be as nice as pie.

God, I sound a right old cow. I'm not, honestly, but I've never had any behaviour problems with dozens of upper primary classes over many, many years. And my own teens are sweeties.

clam Sun 23-Jun-13 11:09:48

valium don't argue! You'll never win with an arsey teen. Shrug and say "whatever" but stick to your threat.

valiumredhead Sun 23-Jun-13 11:10:12

I didn't know they're was a pre teens section, it just came up in my 'active'-I can see myself here a lot in the future as ds gets gobbier older.

valiumredhead Sun 23-Jun-13 11:12:33

Clam,I don't argue but even if say nothing it infuriates ds to the point of violence, so it nips it in the bud.

Certainly with kids I've worked with before ignoring had worked a treat.

valiumredhead Sun 23-Jun-13 11:13:26

I don't shout either, they see it as a chink in your armourwink

RhondaJean Sun 23-Jun-13 11:15:15

My dd1 was starting to exhibit some of those behaviours a few years ago. I tried all sorts of things and then one Saturday when I had had enough I sent her to MY room.

No nice posters and books, no music, nothing interesting to do, four hours of sitting thinking about her behaviour.

I swear, nothing else worked like that. She is almost 14 and she still mentions it, it was a flash of brief parenting genius on my parent. Obviously different things work with different children but I thought I would share!

iHeartTheoJames Sun 23-Jun-13 11:15:56

ignoring doesn't work, she is incredibly stubborn, she won't back down just by being ignored

iHeartTheoJames Sun 23-Jun-13 11:21:50

Thanks Rhonda, but she wouldn't go, just told her to go to her room and she refused then ignored me.

Maybe once I start making some headway, and she starts doing as she's told that will be an option

CrabbyBigBottom Sun 23-Jun-13 11:24:22

Looks like I'm not such a nasty, mean mummy after all. wink

clam Sun 23-Jun-13 11:26:04

Is there anything nice on the horizon that she's looking forward to doing? Pick some low-key things that you can casually mention that look like they won't be happening (not talking major events that you've already paid for or that would adversely affect others if she didn't go or that you wouldn't have the balls to carry through a ban on).

Just refuse to get riled. Tell her clearly that her possessions will remain yours until she bucks her ideas up and does as she is told. Then say nothing. Do not expand. Do not speak to her. Act as though she is not there at all.

When she is freaking out just carry in doing whatever it was when she started creaking and ignore it. Dd had a meltdown once and I stuck earphones in and danced around the kit hen with my eyes closed, proper 'throwing some shapes' grin. She was flabbergasted, was so so angry, I was just really amused.

clam Sun 23-Jun-13 11:34:02

And re: the "professionals" who advised you to listen to her, I think sometimes that sort of advice can get lost in translation. By all means listen, of course we must. BUT, say "I'm not going to talk whilst you're shouting, we'll discuss this later, when you've calmed down." Then, once the thunderstorm's passed and tempers have eased, hear their side of it, but re-iterate at every point that tantrums and rudeness will not be tolerated. Be pleasant about it, but stick to your guns, EVERY time the tone slips. "Now, THAT's rude. Do you want to try it again?"

Oh and taking fuses out if fuse box is excellent way to control teens.

iHeartTheoJames Sun 23-Jun-13 11:40:28

Clam, the professionals, as in the educational welfare officer asked DD what she wanted, DD reeled off a list and the EWO told me to give her all she wanted and then she would do as she was told. Knowing she had someone of authority onside made DD even worse.

Well, she's now thrown a tantrum, stomped off to her room, now she wants to go as she is choosing to not being told to, I am going to give her a little while to calm down and then will go up and try talking to her calmly

clam Sun 23-Jun-13 11:46:11

As long as talking calmly, for you, doesn't come across to her as appeasing.
No idea what your EWO was on!!! But then I don't know the context she was talking in. Mind you, I've heard some right nonsense from some of the behaviour support professionals over the years - some excellent stuff, but some nonsense too.

valiumredhead Sun 23-Jun-13 11:47:16

Give her all she wanted? Wtaf!!shock

valiumredhead Sun 23-Jun-13 11:49:55

OP-let her come to you, don't go after her. If she's anything like my ds it fans the flames even more and he quite likes to trot out the line 'get out of my room!' In true Peggy Mitchell stylegrin

BusterKeaton Sun 23-Jun-13 11:54:23

Yes to valium. Why are going to her. Let her approach you. If she is calm, then engage; otherwise do not engage.

iHeartTheoJames Sun 23-Jun-13 11:59:26

She'd stay in her room for the rest of the day just resurfacing briefly to get food to avoid me given a chance.

I went up, left the contract and pen on her bed that she had thrown on the floor in the lounge when she threw her strop, and told her it was up to her whether she did it or not, but she wasn't going to earn her itouch and phone back until she did.

She's just come down nicely and asked about a pen so I assume she's going to finish copying it. Then reappeared and asked if I would get her some pens from the £1 shop, I told her calmly that she wasn't getting anything till her behaviour improved. She calmly disappeared again.

clam Sun 23-Jun-13 12:01:41

You go girl!! grin

Feel power girl!!! grin

iHeartTheoJames Sun 23-Jun-13 12:12:01

heehee it's feeling goooooood!! grin

BriansBrain Sun 23-Jun-13 13:47:52

Ah a preteen section, I never knew!

DD is the most annoying creature known to man and also the loveliest person ever.

I'm a shouter and I hate it and it's not getting us very far

Floggingmolly Sun 23-Jun-13 13:53:25

Sorry, I haven't actually read the thread, but - who does she get you in trouble with???? shock. You're giving her way too much power over you...

MrsTomHardy Sun 23-Jun-13 20:28:25

I'm a shouter too....I stay quiet for so long them I I have to shout to get my voice heard sad

kerala Sun 23-Jun-13 21:22:38

Read a book called queen bees and wannabes. Chapter on types of parenting is interesting sounds like you need to move from "best friend" parent to "loving hard ass"
(American book but worth a read)

Madlizzy Sun 23-Jun-13 23:14:13

I'm with crabby smile

cory Mon 24-Jun-13 09:07:16

Ds went through a phase round age 11 where he displayed some similar tendencies. This is what we tried:

She is condescending - "what are you getting upset over now?" "What have you lost now?"

Very annoying this one- and ds hasn't quite grown out of it. The only thing, I find, is not to rise to it but calmly say "I am angry because you are not doing as you are told, the way to stop it is to go and do as I tell you now". But calmly. Or ignore his comments altogether but just keep insisting that he does as he's told.

*Constant put downs, every dinner time she finds something to criticise, little put downs all the time, it's like she tries and make me earn her approval

The meals I cook have got to be her liking*

I did (still do) a compromise of cooking a couple of meals a week that I know ds likes: the rest of the time I just ignore him. Maybe a firm "That will do" accompanied by a Paddintong Bear stare at unpleasant comments, but otherwise I didn't let myself be drawn into arguments. He wasn't going to starve, I had no reason to feel guilty, he could eat or not as he pleased, and if he didn't there would be more for me. Fortunately I'm a greedy pig so I can comfort myself with the thought that any well cooked meal is going to go where it's appreciated grin

She doesn't approve of my shopping "What did you buy this jam for?"

I might say "well you can always make suggestions before I go shopping and we can take it in turns to have our preference". But then I would stop discussing it as chances are she is only using the jam as a pretext to take out her bad feelings on you.

She steals and lies and then does elaborate theatrics to cover her tracks

Very difficult and not sure I have an answer to this one.

Rude "I want you to wear your hair down, you look ugly with your hair up"

In ds' case it was my coat that wasn't up to his finicky standards. And he was embarrassed if I spoke English in public as that meant people could understand what I was saying. hmm

I either ignored or used it to my advantage: "Oh you want me to walk down with you to such and such a place- well, it's a chilly day so I'll just grab my warm coat". And in no time at all ds would have shot out of the door with a hurried "It's all right, mum, I can get it myself" and I would be putting my feet up with a nice cup of coffee. grin

Nice as pie when she wants something, couldn't give a F when she doesn't.

She is vindictive and lies to get me in trouble if I have done something that displeases her. She has almost got me in big trouble in the past with her fairytales*

Thankfully haven't had this one. Sounds very difficult. But if there is a big incident I would perhaps try to work on their sense of dignity and fear of loss of face and gently point out that people who tell silly tales don't do themselves any social favours. Don't overdo it though: fear of face loss is a big reason why they behave in this way; confident people are generally more pleasant.

Constantly angry and resentful

Tick. It seemed to get better when he started Yr 8 and got a better social life/started feeling a bit more confident.

An incredibly huge sense of entitlement

I find only time and patience works for this one. If you keep on not letting yourself feel guilty, not letting yourself be pushed into anything, but not letting yourself get riled either, she should gradually work out that being nasty and entitled doesn't get her anywhere.

"Does chores under duress."

Afraid that goes for most teens and pre-teens. Just keep applying the duress. wink

"I find myself feeling so grateful during the short periods when she is sweet and nice. Find myself feeling so grateful when she considers other people apart from herself as it's such a rarity."

Don't. When you feel grateful, you are also focusing on her bad side and the resentment you feel, perpetuating the idea that being nasty is Who She Really Is. Try to stay a bit more neutral, taking any pleasant moment as something natural and normal. Then maybe in time she will come to think that being pleasant is natural and normal for her.

Is as sweet as sugar at school and with friends. I constantly get told what an angel she is!

I think this is a case of counting your blessings. You don't want to be constantly called into school because your dd is the school bully, the child who assaults teachers and cheeks the Ofsted inspector and is on the verge of exclusion. You really don't.

CrabbyBigBottom Tue 25-Jun-13 00:22:58

MadLizzy I'm not sure anyone's ever said that before. Thanks! grin

LoveBeingUpAt4InTheMorning Tue 25-Jun-13 03:27:29

Op how's it going?

Something I've see. Mentioned before is getting them to come up with punishments,

iHeartTheoJames Tue 25-Jun-13 09:09:00

It's going well-ish!

She didn't appreciate being asked to do some washing up so she did a terrible job knowing I probably wouldn't bother asking her again. When I asked why she didn't use washing up liquid, that water alone won't get stuff clean, she pleaded ignorance and was annoyed with me for criticising her.

So she did it, if not very well. She knows to use washing up liquid as the day before she used virtually a whole bottle when all she needed was two squeezes. Maybe she just does very big squeezes grin

I got some horrible attitude from her last night so when she asked me to check her alarm clock I refused which resulted in some backchat but then this morning she has been as sweet as sugar. I hope it's starting to sink in that she can't talk to people like and then they'll still do her bidding. Last night I downright refused whereas before I would have tutted and done what she wanted anyway.

To be fair though, even though I got some attitude before she went to bed and about the washing up for the most part of yesterday she was very polite and lovely.

Thanks for asking thanks

Notmyidea Tue 25-Jun-13 10:12:14

well donesmile keep going!

valiumredhead Tue 25-Jun-13 12:27:40

Well donesmile the washing up would have been done again properly if ds had tried that on and a refusal would be one more day without phone/x box.

Sounds like you are getting the upper hand though,I almost feel sorry for ddwink grin

clam Tue 25-Jun-13 17:47:12

"She doesn't approve of my shopping "What did you buy this jam for?"

"Because I like it and I pay for it." End of debate.

iHeartTheoJames Tue 25-Jun-13 17:53:40

I shall not be beat Valium and in preparation rather than her waste another whole bottle of ecover I have bought two huge bottles of Easy for £1 from the poundshop. She can knock herself out redoing the washing up, not meaning to be cruel, but I want her to stop the silly games. She's not going to get out of doing washing up by deliberately doing it wrong, it means she will have to do it again. So hopefully the next time I ask her to do it, she'll do it properly the first time. If it was a genuine mistake I would understand, but it was deliberate, she did it purposefully wrong in the hope I wouldn't ask her to do the washing up again.

I've just got in from the shops, she's happily put the shopping away for me and is now eating a pasty I picked up for her as a snack as I know she likes them. She agreed to put the shopping away before she knew I had bought her a pasty. Things are certainly feeling more harmonious so far

valiumredhead Tue 25-Jun-13 18:10:18

Oh thank goodness, well done you! It's a relief when things are back on an even keel x

See, once she realises she is not going to get her way without towing the line she will fall in.

Well done, this will be a distant memory soon.

Keep it up! gringringringringrin

MrsShoutyPants Mon 01-Jul-13 19:44:33

So pleased to read this thread - was thinking I was the only one suffering. Actually came in to see what kind of professional help I could seek as I am truly at the end of my very long tether.
My DD is 12 a

frissonpink Mon 01-Jul-13 19:53:09

Be tough. Be cruel to be kind. You sound like a lovely person, who's tried very hard to please her daughter - too hard!

Look at the positives - your daughter behaves well at school. So you have taught her well. She knows how to behave. She just chooses not to do it with you!

Why? Because there are no consequences and she senses your weakness.

You need to get firm with this now.

I remember a young boy I taught (would have been about 6). Gorgeous little boy. So polite, well mannered. Imagine our shock at parent's evening when his Mum said he regularly told her to --fuck off--go away and other such niceties!

I asked the boy the following day...along the lines of... So I met your mum last night and she says you can be rude to her at times. Is that true? You're so polite in school, you've never said a rude word to me!

He turned to me and said (no word of a lie)

Yes, because I wouldn't dare say it to you!

And that's from a 6 year old!

This little madam of yours needs showing who's boss ;) (and I say little madam with affection, as she's clearly a bright child, who just needs a little nudge in the right direction!)

Work on your voice. You need to speak and command with authority. If you say you're going to do something, do it. Don't threaten. If she doesn't like what's for tea for eg, tough. That's the option. Eat it, don't eat it. If she chooses not to eat it, let her go hungry. She won't starve!

MrsShoutyPants Mon 01-Jul-13 19:55:10

Oops sorry - what was I saying? Ah yes - DD is 12.5 and has always been challenging. Recently her behaviour has been utterly appalling - calling us ars****es regularly, trying (and succeeding) in hitting us and being extremely horrible to live with.

She has no interests whatsoever other than arguing and annoying us - it seems like she gets some psychological payback from being told off.

She has constant friend issues - best friends with someone one day and hating them the next.

We've tried to get her interested in things, hobbies, music, dance, sports etc but everything seems like a one day wonder and she gives it up.

Tantrums and crying are an everyday occurrence and her electronic stuff isvpretty much constantly confiscated. She'll beg for them back, be nice for a day and as soon as she gets them back she turns horrible again.

I got a great book called Diva's and Doorslammers a few weeks ago and we started a scheme where she has to earn her pocket money by behaving well - but she won't play - says she has plenty of money - she just doesn't care about anything.

Has anyone got any idea of how to motivate a tween who just doesn't care about anything?

Joiningthegang Mon 01-Jul-13 21:11:17

Is my dd (11) staying with you?
Mine is much worse at certain times of the month - hormones are key.

I have tried tough, then really f***ing tough - just makes her more defiant and rude and difficult.

I think the response is better i you try as braw describes
(Not that I don't get angry - not brilliant role modelling in this house I'm afraid)

Kindness and love is the way to go - take things away and get angry they have nothing to lose and try to prove how tough they are and realistically how far can you really go (although I introduced monthly pocket money and she usually loses most of it through bad behaviour anyway)

Good luck - shot sometimes this parenting malarkey.

On the bright side mine is away with the school for a week - yay!!!!!

MrsShoutyPants Mon 01-Jul-13 21:26:22

Definitely worse at some times of the month - but pretty bad all through the month too.

Have tried the loving approach - like everything else it works for a while and then she gets bored and starts taunting for a reaction.

Thing is - she needs to learn how to behave - that said she is very well behaved at school and most other places - although mil has now seen it first hand too. I just don't think it is acceptable for her to call us names and hit us - and she needs to respect the fact that we work hard to keep her in the manner she has become accustomed to. She thinks she rules the roost!

BastardDog Mon 01-Jul-13 21:49:20

Thank you. Thank you. I'm so pleased to have found this thread. I thought my 12 yo dd and I were the only ones. My dd is lovely to her dad, her teachers, her gran etc. It seems all her hatred and venom is reserved for me. It is very, very hard not to take it personally.

Someone up thread mentioned it was like living with an EA partner. That is EXACTLY what it is like.

I also agree with the sentiments that if dd was dp, we would no longer be together.

Getting tough with my dd wasn't working. She saw it as a challenge and we ended up locked in a battle of wills. Her behaviour was getting more extreme as she tried to get one over on me.

I tried avoiding her, but I found avoiding felt like hiding and hiding from your 12 yo child made me realise how bad things had got.

I'm having more success by ignoring and not reacting to provocation, not engaging with her when she wants to start an arguement (I just leave the room without comment) and being really kind and loving towards her when she behaves normally towards me. It's all easier said than done though. She's been bullying me (that makes me sound such a wimp) for so long, its not easy for either of us to change the way we interact.

Anyway I just wanted to say how nice it was to find I'm not alone with this. I don't know anyone in RL who has has this kind of a relationship with their child.

Joiningthegang Mon 01-Jul-13 22:10:59

I remember being that age - I was hideously vile to my mum. I think I took out all the stress I had during the day and saved it up - it had to come out somewhere and my poor mum got it.
She was my receptacle for my stress because I knew she loved me.
It didn't really make any more sense then than it does now but I think we are sometimes worst behaves to those we love most

valiumredhead Tue 02-Jul-13 08:59:38

Urghhhhh ds has been driving me mad over the last few days, grumpy, stroppy and I have had to really up my game to stop him being seriously rude.

Tiredness from nearing the end of term and shed loads of anti hystamines for hay fever don't help his general mood either.

And breathe......

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