Rude humour or evidence my son's been 'accessing hardcore gay porn'? You decide.

(104 Posts)
Spidermama Fri 10-May-13 14:20:47

I've just come back from lunch with my friend. Our DSs are 11 and a half and just getting ready for secondary school. They've been best mates for years.

Po-faced she handed me a bit of paper she'd fished out of the bin with writing on it from both her ds and mine. You know the game where you write the line of a story then fold it over and someone else writes the next line and you build up a story together? Well this was one of those.

They'd drawn willy pictures on one side and on the other side written the rudest stuff they could possibly think of because that's what makes 11 year olds laugh.

Let's call my ds 'A' and hers 'B'

B: They played spin the bottle at the prostitutes house.
A: It got boring so they decided to suck cocks and enjoy it.
B: After a while they eat each other.
A: Then one of them went up to the bum hole land.
B: It got boring so they diced (sic) to have a threesome.
A: After a while they eat cock.

You get the idea. Anyway my friend tells me she's very concerned that my DS has been 'exposed' to hardcore gay porn and she doesn't want her DS to be affected by this.

I was a little shocked to see it at first because obviously my 11 year old doesn't use this sort of language in front of me. However, the more I looked at it, the more it seemed like perfectly ordinary exploration of sexuality mixed with a bit of 11 year old let's-see-how-shocking-we-can-be type of antics.

I'm very hurt at my friend's implication that it's all being led by my DS when they've clearly both enjoyed the game. I told her she's deluding herself in this respect. She's confronted her DS about and said he was mortified. I told her I felt she'd invaded their privacy somewhat and was over reacting.

I'm also told her I'm concerned about her concentration on the 'gay' aspects of it. Personally I don't see the relevance.

She's an idiot. It's just silly 11 year old stuff, not a hint of gay pirnography in there.

The appropriate response would have been keeping it til his wedding speeches and reading it out grin

Some people really do love to overreact.

Catmint Fri 10-May-13 14:26:55

I can't see anything there which is specific to gay sexuality.

Even if there was, your friend should realise that some people are gay, and get over it.

On the bigger issue of whether the exchange appears to be influenced by access to porn - there is no evidence of that.

The allegation that your ds is somehow leading hers astray - no evidence of that either.

Fwiw, I think your reading of the situation looks far more plausible.

It can't have been comfortable reading for you....but I think you should give your ds his privacy on this one.

Spidermama Fri 10-May-13 14:29:02

I'm almost crying with relief at these responses so far. Thanks.

PMTIsMe Fri 10-May-13 14:29:02

The gay thing is plain daft. I don't think it means anyone has been accessing hard core porn either...but I suppose I might be intrigued as to where it had come from. I know I was reading James Herbert at that age and got all sorts of info from there. Could you ask in a no-blame, just wondering sort of way? Equally, he could have made it up off the top of his head at that age I would say, with no real understanding that he was describing a real sex act. My DS2 aged 3 offered to kiss DS2's willy once in the bath....and I know full well in DS2's mind it was just a funny thing to say because wee, poo, bottoms, willys...you know! Its all so damned funny at that age.

Is your DS young for his age?

Spidermama Fri 10-May-13 14:31:28

By the way my ds is pretty camp. Quite possibly gay. To me that's immaterial and I resent her focus on it and told her so.

She says this has nothing to do with the orientation but she did keep focusing on it and mentioning it so I think she's less comfortable with it than she's letter herself believe.

PMTIsMe Fri 10-May-13 14:33:45

Oh dear. In that case she is being a loon. Worried her boy will catch it no doubt hmm

thefirstmrsrochester Fri 10-May-13 14:35:15

Complete overreaction.
Fairly typical behaviour of boys that age (my own ds included).
And if ds & his mates are anything to go by, accessing or trying to access rude piccies, is also normal.
Your son is hardly leading her son astray. And she does seen to view homosexuality as a deviant path.
She needs to get over herself i think.

OH fgs. It's 11 year old boys. And one's as bad as the other.

I have posted before on here about how I went batshit at DS1 searching "big boobs" and that by the time I got to DD2 "justin Beiber naked" only made me giggle.

Tell her to get herself to Asda and buy a grip. She'll need it there's worse to come.

GenghisCanDoHisOwnWashing Fri 10-May-13 14:39:37

My dd is a year younger that yours. She wouldn't have a clue about what your DS and his friend are talking about. Have either of them got older siblings that would be telling them stuff?

Tbh I wouldn't jump to the hard core porn idea but I would wonder where my dd had heard this and would not be happy about it.

The gay aspect of your friends concern is not necessarily homophobic - unless you think she wouldn't be concerned about the same sort of content on a heterosexual theme.

kotinka Fri 10-May-13 14:41:50

sounds like kids trying to out-outrage each other to me.

Spidermama Fri 10-May-13 14:53:01

My ds is quite young for his age PMT in many ways yes. He also has two teenage siblings.

The thing is, I feel even though I'm invading his privacy, I'm going to have to talk to him about it just because my friend has grilled her DS.

I will however let him know that I think she was wrong to invade their privacy and is over reacting. I'll say I'm not worried but if he's going to write down rude stuff like this he should make sure he protects his own privacy.

Spidermama Fri 10-May-13 14:55:23

I will also ask him where he's learned about this sort of stuff. Because I am interested.

PMTIsMe Fri 10-May-13 14:59:33

Ah well with 2 older siblings of course an 11 year old would be hearing stuff like that! And yes, a young 11 year old and his mate would no doubt find it great fun to write the rudest things they could think of! Sometimes I shout BUM as loud as I can, and I'm in my 40's grin

I think you are right tho, a 'protect your privacy' chat may be needed. Silly really, a case of daft boy-ness being turned into something heavy.

Will you try to clear the air with the friend's mum? Is she your friend too?

kotinka Fri 10-May-13 15:02:19

he's in secondary school now? if so it'll be the older boys, filthy beasties wink I did some work experience in a secondary school, the boys found anything sexual, particularly homosexual stuff, hilarious.

thefirstmrsrochester Fri 10-May-13 15:06:35

Even if there are not older siblings to lead the way, there will be plenty of contenders in their classmates. I'd love to be a fly on the wall in my ds school at break time.

Spidermama Fri 10-May-13 15:06:57

Kontika he's still in Y6.

PMT I am feeling pretty hurt at the moment.

We;ve been friends for a years. In fact we met at ante natal group when we were pregnant with the DSs in question. It would be a shame to lose her friendship.

However but her tone really stung me today and I felt very protective over my DS. She kept saying it looked as though my ds had accessed gay porn and she doesn't want her ds exposed to that. So I'm not feeling too friendly towards her at the moment.

Spidermama Fri 10-May-13 15:07:58

Kotinka (sp)

megandraper Fri 10-May-13 15:16:02

It sounds like she's jumping to the conclusion that your DS is gay/has gay tendencies, therefore would be likely to have looked at gay porn, therefore is leading her son to look at / talk about gay sex/porn.

YANBU to be upset by that. She is out of order suggesting that your son was leading the way in this game, unless there's something else you don't know about to suggest it.

Personally, I would be bothered by the things that had been written down (perhaps because I only have little DC so am naive!) I would wonder where it was coming from. Some of the terminology/scenarios sound a bit porn-like - might come from other, older children describing stuff they've seen/heard about. Other parts of it sounds completely childish and typical 'being rude'.

But your friend sounds prejudiced and a bit thick. You are right to be wary of her.

ChewingOnLifesGristle Fri 10-May-13 15:16:10

I have an 11 yr old ds in yr6 and I'd be pretty shock to find him writing that tbh. I can see I'll probably be in the minority on here on this though.

The sexual orientation wouldn't be the concern in itself but that's quite a lot of er, detail.

I can see why you feel upset that your friend has landed this totally at your door though.

poorbuthappy Fri 10-May-13 15:19:57

I would have to ask her why it so obvious that my ds rather than her ds had been looking at gay porn.

Spidermama Fri 10-May-13 15:22:07

I did poorbuthappy. She didn't have a good answer but she did keep restating it.

hurricanewyn Fri 10-May-13 15:24:17

You're right - it is just rude humour. With some healthy curiosity mixed in.

When my DS was 7 I left him playing on cbeebies' website & went off to make a cup of tea. Came back & he was still on there, but when I looked at the history later that night, he been pn Google. In the history was a search for

"nakey laddies".

We have it on a safe search, so he obviously didn't see what he wanted, so the next search was

"nakey laddies with no clothes on".

Still no joy, so the final attempt before I came back in was

"nakey laddies with no clothes on AT ALL"

(obv the stupid machine was annoying him by that stage). I was a bit freaked out, esp as he was so young, but it's just a normal development thing.

He's 10 now & not showing any signs of deviance yet.

Maybe have a chat about privacy & perhaps about sex not being like what you see on the tv/Internet. But don't tie yourself up in knots about it.

kotinka Fri 10-May-13 15:25:26

grin

Spidermama Fri 10-May-13 15:26:51

grin Hurricane that's SO funny.

OutragedFromLeeds Fri 10-May-13 15:26:59

I think the suggestion that they've seen some porn is valid. Or that someone in their peer group has because I can't see where else they would get stuff like that.

I don't see any reason why it would be gay porn. If it was I don't understand why that's relevant unless your friend is homophobic.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Fri 10-May-13 15:27:05

Nothing to worry about. Standard boy giggly stuff. And remember they don't necessarily know what it means - just that it is rude IYSWIM.

I would giggle at blowjobs, sex etc in primary school - but I had no idea what it meant. Just that it was taboo.

Your friend sounds very naive about the grossness of 11 year old boys, male and/or gay sexuality and what consititutes hardcore pornography! shock

When DS was in Year 6, his friends mum asked us to sort out internet access for their new computer. It started playing up a few weeks later, DH suspected a virus and on further investigation we discovered Google searches in the history for 'horney lezbean biatches' amongst other delights hmm.

Mum was horrified at what they were looking for, I was utterly mortified that they hadn't managed to spell ONE WORD correctly! shock.

Spidermama Fri 10-May-13 15:42:43

Though to be fair Lapsed those words probably weren't given out in the spelling lists of words to learn. grin

thefirstmrsrochester Fri 10-May-13 15:42:49

The first time you discover your ds has possibly (absolutely had in case of ds) viewed porn, or expressed enjoyment at the naughtiness, it is a bit shock but as said up thread, most boys will eventually dabble in it (till you review the firewall on the PC) and lose interest once they have had their giggles.

Restorer Fri 10-May-13 15:50:52

Well, I think the gay porn thing is a red herring, but if the note had been found at school,(at least at the primary where I work) the welfare officer would have been asked to interview both children. Could all be nothing, but it would be considered a cause for concern.

TheSecondComing Fri 10-May-13 15:57:06

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Fri 10-May-13 16:05:43

They haven't seen anything. There is nothing there that you wouldn't hear being whispered around with much giggles in primary school.

They are simply writing down the "baddest" things they can think of in order to out do each other.

They are both probably blissfully unaware of the precise mechanics of what they are writing.

TheSecondComing Fri 10-May-13 16:13:28

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ChewingOnLifesGristle Fri 10-May-13 16:14:58

Agree with TSC.

AvrilPoisson Fri 10-May-13 16:15:36

Is this the DS you've previously wondered about sexuality? (Forgive me if I've got wrong poster)
Just wondered if she thinks he's gay, and therefore "corrupting" her child- some people have very strange ideas about sexuality.
Tbh, it sounds like normal silly banter between boys, perhaps a little younger than usual, but tbh I think we chatted about things similar tothis in Y6... however, as girls we weren't daft enough to write it down for our parents to find! grin

Restorer Fri 10-May-13 16:16:45

I work in a primary with very many social problems and we wouldnt consider this was normal Fine. There would be concern about how/where they had seen /heard this stuff. As I said it may turn out to be innocent, but it would be taken seriously. TBH where child protection us concerned, i dont think a breach of privacy should be ops biggest concern.

Our welfare officer would also be wondering what your friend knows/suspects that makes her so keen to point the finger.ie is she trying to deflect attention?

HDEE Fri 10-May-13 16:19:51

I have a 12 year old son and would be amazed if he knew what half of those things are. I doubt he'd even know what a prostitute is.

I'd be asking serious questions and checking his Internet history thoroughly.

tethersend Fri 10-May-13 16:26:53

I used to be an art teacher, and when teaching supply I would sometimes pass out sheets of paper, tell them they could write or draw anything the wanted, that I would be collecting them at the end of the lesson and they did not have to put their name on the drawings.

There are not enough words in the English language with which to adequately describe the filth and depravity that sprung forth grin

There were diagrams, labels, narratives, motifs... And this was just from year 7.

Unfortunately, I lost about three sketchbook's-worth when I moved house.

BiteTheTopsOffIcedGems Fri 10-May-13 16:31:03

I think it is just eleven year old boy silliness.
In my opinion your attitude to sexuality (when you mentioned it is immaterial that your son could be gay) is fantastic, compared to your friends attitude that it's almost seems wrong and maybe contagious somehow.

Spidermama Fri 10-May-13 16:37:22

HDEE I was surprised initially but only because he doesn't talk to me about this sort of stuff, obviously. About three seconds later, my surprise had gone.

I've just had a chat with him. He says he's never seen any porn online and I believe him. Not least because he doesn't have a computer in his room and actually, if he had seen it, I rather think the vocabulary would be somewhat more graphic.

He says everyone his age knows about blow jobs and sex and they regularly talk about it in school. Again, I believe him. I'm sure I knew what blow jobs were in primary school though I was years away from every experiencing one first hand. I also knew how gay people had sex and that was even funnier at 11. grin

I think making a big adult fuss about only serves to cause more problems, and could make they feel guilty as if they're bad or dirty. I also believe many adults inadvertently pass on their own hang ups about sex.

Lizzylou Fri 10-May-13 16:37:48

God, I think that is all way too much.
I wouldn't say it was normal 11 yr old stuff at all.

I suppose your DS has older siblings, so will pick up stuff from them. Has the other boy got older brother/sisters?

I think your friend was out of order for blaming your DS and focusing on gay porn. But I think I would be having a chat with your DS about where he picked this stuff up from.

DS had "naked ladies" on his when he was 11.
I just handed the phone back and said you won't find too many ladies there, son.
His red face lit up the room smile

Lizzylou Fri 10-May-13 16:42:54

Sorry, cross post.
Glad chat went well, seems I a bit naive about what 11 year olds know. I am sure I had only just grown out of playing with dolls blush

Spidermama Fri 10-May-13 16:46:35

DH just had a chat with my older DS who is 13 and asked him if - when he was 11- he wrote rude, sexy stuff - being as shocking as possible, and drew pictures etc and my DS looked at him like he was an idiot and said, 'Of COURSE I did. ALL my mates did that. Everyone does it at that age'.

It's understandable that we're naive about what they know because adults are not supposed to hear them talk in this way but it is normal, especially for boys I would venture. Gross, but normal.

Lizzylou Fri 10-May-13 16:48:28

Shit.
DS1 is 9 and thinks "sex" is a swear word. To be fair he is very young for his age.
Think his 7 year old brother will be corrupting him though.

Grammaticus Fri 10-May-13 16:50:15

My two are twelve and fourteen. I'm sure this is exactly the sort of thing they talk about among their friends occasionally. I'm not remotely shocked by what's on the OP's piece of paper. As long as they and their friends can also sit round the table with me and eat a meal in a jolly fashion without inappropriate language (which happens once a week) I'm pretty sure things are fine. And normal. Completely normal, gay or straight. (I think mine are straight. But who knows.)

working9while5 Fri 10-May-13 16:50:19

I would be very worried at this age yet not at the same time, if you know what I mean? The curiosity and the game and writing the rudest thing you can think of and that including sexual stuff wouldn't bother me in the slightest, I think it was ever thus, but the phrasing isn't great and I'm saddened this is considered so ordinary at this age. 14, 15 - hell yeah.. but they are so young really and he is just in Year 6.

I don't like the "eat cock"/"eat eachother" or the reference to prostitutes. I don't think this means either boy has accessed porn personally necessarily (though I wouldn't rule it out, I certainly had seen some at 14 and I was a sheltered convent girl and this was in the 80's in Ireland where we were all good lil Catholics dontcha know wink). I think that unfortunately kids these days are living in an increasingly pornified culture.

What bothers me here is that they are exposed to these ideas and concepts really before they are even sexually aware really and there's no guidance or talk about the reality of what sex is. That's what I'd be concerned about, not the porn per se.

My kids are only wee toddlers but I work in secondary schools and we will be arranging for them to have talks about sex when the time comes, sort of awkward American pie talks maybe.. but ones in which somehow we talk about what sex is and isn't. My parents actually talked to me about sex a lot - both my mother and my father - and I always knew their views on things including porn etc. They were unflinchingly open and yet never really did anything detailed or uncomfortable. It was a sort of theoretical discussion like what are the rights and wrongs of porn etc.

If I were you, this would be my concern. Feck the friend and her borderline homophobia or whatever (the gay bit isn't important). I'd just be worried that they really haven't a notion and this is going to be a part of how their sexual identity develops. There's scary stuff out there these days and boys and girls are under pressure to think they have to be pornstar wannabes. If that's a sort of Inbetweener naïve "look at me I'm so hot" while being completely virginal that's one thing but they are supposed to be sixth formers. It's bloody awful that there's this sort of language about six at 11 or 12 these days.

working9while5 Fri 10-May-13 16:51:59

sex, obviously hmm

working9while5 Fri 10-May-13 16:53:32

And by this, I suppose it's the potential misogyny/porniness of it that concerns me.. not the interest in sex or its rudeness. It's more about the content than the theme if you get my drift.

Autumn12 Fri 10-May-13 16:54:39

This is funny. It doesn't sound to me like anything out of the ordinary for boys that age.

It reminds me of when I was about 13 and my Mum found a note my friend had written to say that a boy at school had told everyone that I was "tight". My Mum went mad because to her it meant something completely different to what this boy meant. He meant that I had refused to kiss him, her interpretation was entirely more explicit...

I'd just laugh at the other mother for thinking you can catch the gay.
She's not too bright, is she?

Oblomov Fri 10-May-13 16:56:46

What A has written seems quite different to what B writes, don't you think?

working9while5 Fri 10-May-13 17:01:26

I thought so Oblomov.

I think that if the more explicit one is your kid OP it's probably most likely to reflect the influence of having two older sibs than anything else.. but I guess it's important to be aware of this too.

I was 7 years older than my youngest sister and I KNOW she heard all sorts of inappropriate stuff from me. I particularly remember babysitting one night and being on the phone chatting all night and talking about American Psycho with my friend and rats... erm... being used to "eat out" someone. My sister talked about it to my mum, she was about 8 blush. There's no way she'll have understood it but I was older and cooler and so she was paying attention when I would never have even thought it would interest her. My mother absolutely slaughtered me for it (rightly so).

Spidermama Fri 10-May-13 17:01:33

When I talked to DS about it by the way he did immediately say...'It was all B' and then I had to point out that I could see exactly who'd written what.
This made me wonder if - when my friend talked to her ds - he'd said the same, eg, 'it was all A's idea. He made me do it' and perhaps she took this at face value.

Otherwise I still don't understand why she's trying to deflect it all onto my DS. That's the bit that hurt.

Spidermama Fri 10-May-13 17:02:04

In what way Oblomov?

Spidermama Fri 10-May-13 17:02:30

A bit less gay maybe?

Spidermama Fri 10-May-13 17:07:12

Working9 I worry because my 14 year old DD is extremely outspoken in front of my 8 year old and I have to keep reminding her she'd never heard words like that when she was his age.

It is mostly A that says gay stuff, B not so much.

Does the other boy also have older siblings?
In my experience it is the boy with older brothers who come out with this stuff, as they listen to their brothers.

If friend does not have older brothers, mum might be right in assuming it was mostly your boy. Either way, seems like harmless banter.

working9while5 Fri 10-May-13 17:10:37

The gayness wasn't what stood out to me, more that one sounded more naïve than the other. But that's not strictly true I guess - it's just B uses the vocab more naturally in some kind of way, as though he's more used to it. But it is between them really as it is A who introduces the cock sucking wink! Just the use of "eat" is more porny/older sounding I think. I know A uses it too but B brought it up first.

I know well when I was at this age we talked about prozzies and did all those rhymes like
No. 1, they're doing it for fun in the bedroom na na na nana nana
No 2, he's taking off her shoe in the bedroom etc
I thought no. 6 and 7, "he's taking off her nix/taking her to heaven" were just about The Rudest Thing Ever. It was very adult and I giggled at it for hours many many times but I wouldn't have been able to make it up myself if you know what I mean?

working9while5 Fri 10-May-13 17:12:06

Yes agree that it sounds as though one has older sibs and the other hasn't!

Restorer Fri 10-May-13 17:13:21

A is a lot more graphic IMO. I don't think either can be said to be "gay" as it doesn't say if they're talking about all men or mixed.

I think you are understandably hurt by your friend's instance that it was all your son and the gay inference, which is deflecting from the fact that there is a cause for concern here.

To me the most chocking part is the OP's "By the way my ds is pretty camp. Quite possibly gay" To me that shows almost as much ignorance as the friend. How can you drawn any conclusions about a person's sexuality from the fact that he's a bit effeminate at 11yo?

I'm glad you've investigated to a satisfactory conclusion Op, but I think you're almost a bit too keen to be laid back about it all.

I would be very concerned about the depth of sexual knowledge.
Working in CP, I would have cause for concern given the children referred to prostitutes, oral and anal sex, and group sex. Where has this knowledge come from?

The 'gay' thing is a red herring.

Spidermama Fri 10-May-13 17:16:00

Quintessential my DS has and older brother (13) and an older sister (14) who regularly have friends round.

The other boy does have an older brother (13) but he's quite sheltered compared with my older DS I guess. I mean for instance that he doesn't have a smart phone or Facebook and doesn't go into town. My 13 year old ds - and most of his mates - have been going into town on their own since the end of year six. So I guess there is maybe a cultural difference between our two families.

My 11 year old DS is probably my most geeky and well behaved child and if he says all his friends know about this sort of stuff then God only knows what the others at school talk about that we never get to hear.

I do think they deserve a degree of privacy.

defineme Fri 10-May-13 17:21:34

I think the other women is scared, stupid and homophobic: very well done for responding to that there and then-I'd have thought of the appropriate words later when I'd got home!
I have a year 6 boy and from what I know of his friends this does all come under the category of 'big joke', but I work with 15 year old boys too and the amount of homophobic crap and objectification of women is appalling, they all think anal sex is a given, texting naked photos of yourself is an expectation, it's like they have to push the boundaries earlier and earlier..
I do think they were being inappropriate and I'd be having serious chats with my ds about that. Call me po faced if you like, but I think there's no harm in challenging 'jokes'.,I don't care if they're all doing it, doesn't make it right.

working9while5 Fri 10-May-13 17:23:12

Restorer, did you ever have any friends as a child who ended up gay that everyone would have known early in life? I did and so did my sister.
My closest gay male friend said he knew at about 9ish. He did some straight experimenting but he was HUGELY camp even as a child. Not effeminate, camp. He used to say "behave!" to pretty much everything and did these amazing elaborate drawings of fairy costumes (ended up doing these as part of his fashion degree many years later).

My friend went out with him as part of his straight experimentation and we used to sit around despairing of everyone who was being so "close minded" about him and assuming he was gay. We were gutted when we were proven wrong!

At 11, it might just be something someone is experimenting with in terms of identity of course but "quite possibly gay" is a valid tentative remark to make about someone who is taking on this identity in a very defined, public way. If you said "he couldn't possibly be straight" that would be shocking. But hey, they're all quite possibly gay at 11 it's just sometimes it can be a bit more obvious a trajectory.

Spidermama Fri 10-May-13 17:23:51

Restorer he is and always has been very camp. I said 'possibly gay' because I'm fully aware that I don't know at this stage. He may well know though. Most of my gay friends tell me they knew before they were 11.

I'm not 'keen' to be laid back. I just don't find what was written shocking and I'm very hurt and a bit shocked that such an old friend holds this opinion.

TheSecondComing Fri 10-May-13 17:23:55

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Spidermama Fri 10-May-13 17:28:56

Totally agree Working9. I also am trying to balance my duty not to make assumptions about his persuasion with my duty to make sure he knows it's absolutely fine by me if he is gay. Things don't seem to have changed much in secondary schools and my teenagers have told me NOBODY is out.
And we're in Brighton!

working9while5 Fri 10-May-13 17:30:35

Defineme, absolutely. Had this bloody awful conversation with a group of 14 year olds about how they'd heard about some woman who had a broom put inside her and it came out her mouth. They were pretty naïve, one of them asked me if this was actually possible (in a science lesson).. but yeah, youtube and youporn and all that are now the norm and I'm genuinely surprised MoreCrackThanHarlem that anyone would think this was such a cause for concern in CP anymore.

I work predominantly with young people with language and social communication disorders and it's terrifying the stuff that they are their peers think is "average" while still knowing absolutely naff all. It really is a situation where very decent and genuine kids are going to end up expecting that they can abuse their female peers without even realising that this is what they are doing. I hate it and it makes me glad I don't have a daughter but terrified I have sons.

Restorer Fri 10-May-13 17:32:28

Yes, I also know and have known lots of camp people who weren't gay.

working9while5 Fri 10-May-13 17:32:50

This included a discussion with a young person who had been accessing porn and was deeply troubled by the fact that he didn't find it sexually arousing as this must "mean I am bent and will have to suck cock". That was an interesting phonecall to his family <<cringe>>. They are just too young for what they are exposed to. Their brains are too impulsive and it's a lethal mix.

noddyholder Fri 10-May-13 17:33:55

No the % of 'out' teens is surprising low even here! Some people on this thread are over reacting. I know we all think our kids don't know this stuff but believe me they do and can still come home and cuddle you and watch baby tv and be your little boys! I have always found a combo of eye rolling and disapproval at anything a bot bigoted did the trick. What if the note had ended in the bin like dozens of others on other houses? You would be none the wiser and neither would his mum like 90% of parents. the only thing here is they just binned it casually which suggests they don't feel it is worth hiding smile

Spidermama Fri 10-May-13 17:35:00

She needn't feel 'undermined' SecondComing. She expressed some pretty extreme opinions about my ds and I expressed my opinion. She's free to reject it.

I have to disagree that 11 year olds don't deserve privacy. Everyone needs a bit of that.

noddyholder Fri 10-May-13 17:35:00

Excuse typos

defineme Fri 10-May-13 17:35:23

That's not my experience at all actually. |I do despair of the attitudes taken from pornography, but in my rural East Midlands school some kids as young as year 10 are out. I'm very surprised this is not the case in Brighton.

curryeater Fri 10-May-13 17:38:44

restorer, I would echo what 9while5 says - I have a family member who was always very camp as a very young child, exhibited many gay stereotypes while having nothing at all to base them on in terms of role models (things like cosy chats about feelings with girls, dressing up flamboyantly, being very artistic etc) and he attracted a lot of (very negative) attention because of it. Nobody missed it. And it was no fun for him, he wouldn't have been doing it unless it was what he was really like. Anyway, as an adult, he turned out to be.... gay. Quelle surprise. I only say this to say that it does happen like that sometimes, and to observe it is not necessarily to be homophobic.

Spidermama Fri 10-May-13 17:39:02

Really Defineme? That's good to know. Do they get teased?
I am also surprised about Brighton. Saddened.
I grew up in Aberdeen in the 1980s and saw a teenage boy being beaten up on the bus just because he'd dared to go our looking like Boy George. I'll never forget that. It was heart breaking.

Spidermama Fri 10-May-13 17:40:36

I totally agree Noddy and I've told him, if you write stuff like this, and you don't want others to see it, dispose of it properly.

Slambang Fri 10-May-13 17:45:57

Hi Spider I remember you talking about your lovely ds a few years ago.

I think your friend's subtext is I'm terrified that your ds wil influence my ds and somehow make my ds gay. Of course she's too PC to actually say this to you so she's blaming her fears on 'hard core gay porn'.

Who knows - perhaps her ds will be gay. Perhaps your ds will be. But I suspect she wouldn't have been nearly so paranoid about the hardcore porn aspect if this had been a conversation between a dd and a ds.

noddyholder Fri 10-May-13 17:47:36

I think the fact that she fished it from the bin and read it suggests she may just be hyper vigilant with her kids. I would never have seen it as everything in my ds bin would have just been thrown away without being 'sorted'!

defineme Fri 10-May-13 17:49:19

|It is quite a recent positive development smile
6th formers appear to have no bother. There's a bit of 'oi gayboy' in lower years, but there is, for example, a year 10 boy comfortable enough to touch up his make up after his lesson shock -not that he (or anyone else) is supposed to wear it!

working9while5 Fri 10-May-13 17:50:43

It's about balance I guess though.

It's like my three year old. Since watching episodes with his older cousins, he wants to be a Power Ranger and tear around the place whacking things and people with makeshift swords. That is where he's at. Yet we don't let him watch it because he has proven time and time again he hasn't got the impulse control to manage it and it ALWAYS ends up with him being overexcited in his sword play and hurting someone/getting in trouble/getting upset.

They're no different at 11 either. They can want to watch all this crap and they have more freedom to access it.. but there is still guardianship necessary. Completely different after 15 I think (from Year 9 to year 10 they seem to go from being these wild toddleresque creatures with no concept of anything sensible to well, pretty grown up) but the early teenage years they really do need a bit of a steer even though they are likely to kick against it like billy-oh. I remember this myself.

ppeatfruit Fri 10-May-13 17:51:35

spidermamma You dealt with it correctly IMO brilliant! And to the people who are saying "oh it was never was like this in my day" hmm bollocks actually.

I'm 62 and in my class there were 10 and 11 year old boys with dirty magazines etc. kissing the photos etc. 'TWAS EVER THUS" There were hard core porn murals in Pompei FGS !!

NeoMaxiZoomDweebie Fri 10-May-13 17:53:55

I'd be more concerned at their dreadful spelling bless them.

noddyholder Fri 10-May-13 17:55:27

You can see the messages progress as in competitive outrageousness! Thats what boys do try to go one better They were probably laughing their heads off with each line and then binned it in favour of something else!

Spidermama Fri 10-May-13 18:00:45

Thanks ppeatfruit. smile

I just got my 14 year old DD's take on this. She's a well-behaved, bookish swotty sort. Think Saffy out of Ab Fab. She recalls being at the friend of a girl and fellow book club member in year 4, (so about 9) who snuck a book out of her mum's room and showed it to her. My dd says it had pictures and descriptions of blow jobs and all sorts of other things. She learned a lot that day.

She also said by year six absolutely EVERYONE knows this stuff. She talked about a culture of competitive ability to shock. Everyone wants to go one stage further.

working9while5 Fri 10-May-13 18:05:56

I think probably everyone does but I'm not sure that's the point in some ways... just asked my dh as he got in from work (he wasn't expecting that ha!) and he was like: pretty normal but come off it, he's probably watching porn too, it's EVERYWHERE! Dh wouldn't see that as a massive problem and I don't think I would either... but given the extent and ease of access these days I don't think there's any harm in having the conversation that you know, this stuff is out there, you're going to see it and you're probably going to look for it, but you might get weirded out by it and just remember it's like any other work of fiction and REALLY bears no resemblance to the real thing.

Spidermama Fri 10-May-13 18:19:57

9while5 funnily enough I had exactly that conversation with him after I'd talked to him about this.

ppeatfruit there's also the ancient Greeks and their naughty pottery.

Even in Scotland no one blinks. DC have friends round here who are gay, bi, experimenting, the works. We all talk about boyfriends, girlfriends irrespective of gender.
Maybe we are odd but it has never been an issue. Oh, except that one time DH asked DD's gay mate how his love life was, knowing he'd just got together with a new chap. The mate was with his mum and DH assumed she knew about her sons sexuality, it would appear not ........ confused

Spidermama Fri 10-May-13 20:23:05

Whoops! Hope she was ok with it. I'm really pleased to know school children are feeling able to come out. Shame it's not so in Brighton. I don't get that. It's not just my kids school.

She was fine and it all ended well but we still tease DH mercilessly about him outing the lad in Tesco grin

DebsMorgan Fri 10-May-13 20:30:54

I can just imagine the two of them sitting there wracking their brains for the most shocking things they could write and then giggling as they wrote them.

Coconutty Costa Rica Fri 10-May-13 20:42:40

Yeah, I would be giving my DS no privacy at all if he was writing this sort of stuff in Year 6. I think there is a noticeable difference between what A and B wrote - A being more explicit.

I would be wanting to know where he has been watching hardcore porn. I know you asked him and he denied it but suggest that he's lying. You said he initially lied and said it was all B, he won't want to tell the truth about the porn either.

forgossake Fri 10-May-13 20:55:54

Oh my god, déjà vu.... Memories are flooding back of my 11th birthday sleepover party. When we played consequences. And then chucked the bits of paper down the sides of the bed. For my mother to find in the morning.

Absolutely revolting language from 5 privately educated girls. My Dm actually called all the other mums to tell them and my Df gazed sadly at me and said " you're not a little girl anymore, are you?"blush

But I hadn't ever seen any porn at that age. Learnt it all in the playground.
But my poor, poor parents. sad

Spidermama Fri 10-May-13 22:28:19

Love it forgossake. grin

ppeatfruit Sat 11-May-13 09:04:51

It's NORMAL ffs like walking and talking it's them growing up and learning about life but we none of us wanted our parents to know or want to think about our parents doing 'it' shock that really was and is considered "double gross" grin

Oh yes!
When the DC were younger and we wanted them to bog off and give us some peace I used to say brightly " So kids, lets talk about Sex, your father and I ....."
I never got to the end of the sentence before they exited the room grin
Ah happy days smile

dementedma Tue 28-May-13 22:10:09

I might expect my 11 year old to write down all the rude words he knows on a list, including things like cock, fanny etc but the example given by the op would be way too explicit for me to be comfortable with tbh.

cory Wed 29-May-13 08:09:16

Learnt in the playground would be my first thought.

Or on an ordinary television show: comedians like Russell Howard are constantly joking about blow jobs and anal sex; Jeremy Clarkson does it and very occasionally (in a more refined and educated way) even Stephen Fry does it. Those programmes are on daytime television. And if they don't watch, some of their friends will be watching.

Reminds me of an experience in secondary school when the authorities got all worried because every student seemingly had access to hard drugs. What happened was, the school sent round a questionnaire where one of the questions was: "If you wanted to purchased drugs would you know where to go". As it so happened nobody in my class took drugs or had contact with drug dealers, but we all thought we knew that there was a girl in the other class who probably would know who to contact to get in touch with somebody, so we all answered in the affirmative. Created quite a moral panic, that did. But didn't mean we were all involved with drug dealers.

PickledInAPearTree Wed 29-May-13 08:27:45

In my school this type of talk was quite common at 11 - if this lady thinks you need to have accessed hardcore gay porn to say "eating cock" she must be quite naive.

If he'd been looking at hardcore things I would imagine it would be a LOT worse than that.

I did snigger at bum hole land I have to say.

everythinghippie29 Wed 29-May-13 08:46:26

spidermamma I think you handled the situation well and didn't demonize sex or sexuality by flying into a mad panic. You advised your son to perhaps be more discreet in future ( which was needed given the trouble this could have caused if found in school fo example!), and it sounds like you have an honest and open dialogue with all of your children, which is lovely. I hope when a similar situation comes for me my parenting skills will reflect yours!

piffpoff Sat 01-Jun-13 15:05:44

I have to say the note made me chuckle although if it was my DS I know I may not find it quite so funny. I have a 12 yr old DS and I know that he knows all about this stuff and that it comes from school. I dread to think of some of the conversations they have given what I have over heard whilst eavesdropping passing by his room.
It is a worry about what they might have access to, mine tells me he's not seen any porn and I do believe him but sadly know its only a matter of time despite our best efforts to monitor his computer use.
I also remember at this age ( vaguely- over 30 yrs ago shockbeing taken, along with my friends to see some porno mags that some boys in my class had found in some bushes. It's a natural thing at this age to be curious but I think it's still all a bit gross as well.
OP I think you handled it really well and sorry about your friend, it's disappointing that she's shown herself to be so prejudiced.

Spidermama Tue 04-Jun-13 20:31:46

Thanks for your kind words piffpoff and everythinghippie.

DS was mortified at first that it had been found but he seems to have put it behind him. He still hangs out with his friend at school but hasn't gone back to his house or had his friend round here like they used to. He says he's too embarrassed now which I understand but think is sad.

Pickledinapeartree I agree that bumhole land is pretty funny. grin

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