DS10....Am cracking up!

[highhopes2010]

I know most people go through it with their children but he is absolutely cracking me up.He is brilliant at school-butter wouldn't melt.He never gets in trouble,in fact he would be mortified at getting in trouble there.His back chat and arguing that black is white at home with us has made me think it must be the way we've brought him up-although someone once told me if he's good everywhere else then you've done a good job and not to worry.I have tried everything.punishing him-earlier then usual bedtime,taken his ipod,ds,laptop,t.v. everything off him.Made him earn it all back.Sat and talked to him.EVERYTHING.I just feel like we're forever punishing him and it makes me sad,I don't want to be like that with him.He is in bed at 8pm normally and we let him read till 8.30pm so it's not like he isnt getting enough sleep.We only let him on ps3 for 2 hours(he's not really bothered with it the last couple of weeks anyway)at a time-that goes for laptops and handheld games.I just dont know what else to try or is it a case of carrying on how we are with him and once he knows we're not backing down he'll gain some respect for us?He isnt always moody with us,we can have laughs and talk normally,but it is majority amount of time.He hasnt started puberty,could it be his hormones starting up do you think?

[tooposh]

Am I right that he is 10 years old and behaving well at school and generally good? I am not clear why you are punishing him. You talk about "back chat" but perhaps what you call back chat is just him sticking up for himself and having a point of view. Perhaps cut him some slack, treat him with respect and as more of an adult (fewer punishments, fewer "because I say so"s ) and you will soon find him behaving as well at home as he does at school. He is a human being and allowed to express his own opinions which might be that black is white. In short, don't sweat the small stuff - I agree with your friend who says you have done a good job as he sounds like a nice boy even from your post!

[tooposh]

Oh, meant to add - getting into a cycle of threats and punishment when really he goes to bed nicely at 8pm and is doing brilliantly at school is a real shame and you need to get out of it. This is down to you unless you really intend to crush his spirit. So stop making threats and enforcing punishments unless he has done something seriously wrong eg been nasty to a sibling or gone out without telling you....not just for being teenagery argumentative or "back chatting".

[highhopes2010]

Thanks tooposh.I do get told alot how nice he by his friends parents and other people.It's the things like when we ask him to do something he will argue over so much.He doesnt get asked to do much.He is lippy with us though in the way he mutters "bog off" under his breath,and like I said he will always argue black is white even when we prove something to him that he is wrong about.Maybe we are being too tough on him and I have lost the plot as they say along the way?

[Danthe4th]

Does he really need an ipod,ds, laptop and the ps3. I would just have the one to play with and 2 hours is a long time.
Does he do any clubs, football etc?? Could you perhaps do something fun together in the evening, take him swimming or just out for a grown up meal.
I've got a soon to be 9 year old who is very agressive at the moment and trying to push the boundries but I notice he is worse if he has been on the laptop especially on the club penguins site!!
we've got a small local pub and have recently been taking him on a sunday afternoon to watch the football and play pool and have noticed how much better he is when we get home. I also try to focus on positive praise when he behaves really nicely and speaks nicely to us all rather than taking away toys and getting into a negative slanging match.
I think hormones and peer pressure has a lot to do with it, 8pm is quite early perhaps you could use that time to do something together, I even played card games with mine and he loved it.

[highhopes2010]

I think you're probably spot on tooposh.I know kids do answer back but he does it with everything with us,what's your opinion on this?

[highhopes2010]

He isn't really bothering with the computer things lately.He does get stroppy if he's on them any longer we've noticed,maybe we should cut down on the time on those Danthe4th.He goes swimming alot and to scouts which he loves.I have been thinking lately to do more with him so I think I will start looking today for something else.Thanks for all your opinions,I'm just feeling a bit crushed lately.

[naffedoff]

Your post could be mine, highhopes. My Yr 6 DS (10) has always been a lovely boy - in school, at home and at friends' homes. A few months ago he started with all the backchat, getting the last word, arguing black is white etc. I responded by getting cross and then getting upset at his behaviour - which I know is actually still better than friends' behaviour has ever been.

I'm trying to think logically that he's growing up and having an opinion rather than being told what to do by me and instantly obeying it as I've been used to him doing. When I had a chat with him about how it was making me sad, he was genuinely taken aback.

I do think that too much time spent on Xbox Live killing aliens with his mates has an effect though - he sees it as a punishment when I ask him to turn it off as "all my friends are still on and we're playing a great game". I try and cut him some slack as he's had SATs etc recently and wants to let off steam, but I don't want him to think - even subconsciously -that he can do whatever he like when he likes.

I'm just trying to stop telling him off and being negative all the time!

[highhopes2010]

Exactly Naffedoff.My dh says what do we do then,because ds is cheeky to us most days somewhere along the line,so do we ignore it?like you we don't want him to think he can do whatever he likes whenever he likes.

[tooposh]

You are setting a good example (I presume, you sound kind and thoughtful) which is what, eventually, he will model himself on, so ignoring small amounts of brattish behaviour whilst he is struggling to find a new more grown up identity won't do him any harm or turn him into any kind of monster Try to get him to see YOU as a human being too though - like Nadedoff's DS, he probably hasn't thought about it from your point of view. I doubt very much that he wants to upset you (but go on punishing him and he will) and so he might well adapt his behaviour if he can see how/why you find it upsetting. I am sure he will turn out to be a lovely lad.

[5318008]

also an argument needs more than one person

do you ever feel like you HAVE to have the last word?

I did (still do !) but found that resisting my natural impulse to go back and back has created a more pleasant atmosphere (mine is 11)

[naffedoff]

Ha! I always feel like I should have the last word - being a 'grown up' and all that...but I think I'm going to have to try harder and accept that he has a valid point of view (sometimes!).

[highhopes2010]

Thanks tooposh and everyone else.I thought about what you've all said and taken it onboard.I had a talk with ds before and asked him what he thought we could "all do"to improve ourselves and the situations we get in.He didn't understand at first(think he was taken aback)so I said ok you hate your turn at doing the pots so what can we do about it as you have to do something in the house(it is the only thing he does).And he said can we make a rota of chores for me so I don't only have to do them.Ok I said that's fine we'll sit down and do that tomorrow(perfect).But this rota will be what you have made so you can't moan about it afterwards.(he won't have lots to do before anyone starts to flame me,just a couple of things)Next thing he said was can I have a reward chart-I said you're a bit too old for that now but you can have £2.50 a week which will go up to £5.00pw when you go to high school.Brilliant he said.What next I said,he said all my friends go to bed at 9pm-9.30pm can I?I said but you struggle to get up in the mornings so do you think thats a good idea?He said well sometimes when you go to bed early you still dont want to get up in the morning.Fair comment(have felt like that myself).So how about we meet halfway and you go to bed at 8.30pm,read till 8.45pm and asleep by 9pm and we'll see how that goes?He was absolutely loving it(hope I've not just been walked all over?).Also said ok now lets start fresh tomorrow and see how everything goes.He is happy as Larry,so I guess we'll have to see how it goes and I will be cutting him some slack on his notright-- opinions.thanks again everyone,feel lot happier now.

[Janni]

I have one this age. They're developing a sense of who they are, where they fit in the world, what their opinions are. What you see as back chat they see as putting their point of view. Perhaps you could try an experiment where you say things like 'that's an interesting point of view' and you try not to have the final word all the time. I find if it's something I really need them to do that giving them a choice between now or in ten minutes is a good compromise. Also, if I'm interested in their opinion and why they feel a certain way they often do the thing I've asked without any problem. This is a good age for you to start thinking about having a teenager. I have one of those too and he is far less argumentative at 14 than he was at 10.

[highhopes2010]

thanks Janni,your comments taken onboard.I think i got stuck in a rut somewhere.He is a lovely lad,we definately need to cut him some slack.

[tooposh]

That all sounds great! He has not walked all over you - you have compromised and the final position is still an 8.45/ 9pm bedtime and helping with chores. You are a lovely mum and I hope you are all happier. He is a lucky lad.

One last point - don't expect this to be quite the end of all back chat/ teenagery behaviour for the next 10 years, but you have cleared the first hurdle.

[highhopes2010]

Thanks tooposh,a little advice goes a long way sometimes,and your advice has helped lots.Think you must be a great mum too.

[SomekindofSpanish]

highhopes2010, thnks for starting this thread.

Your ds sounds exactly like my DS1 and Janni's idea sounds like a great way to try and handle the situation.

Like you, DH and me have removed privileges, 'grounded' him from playing out with his friends, etc ( which seems to work, but then back to the same old a few days later).

We do listen to his point of view and take on baord a lot of what he says, but not when he is being deliberatley(sp?) defiant (or is it our perception?)

I have begun to cut him more slack (now just have tomwork on DH) as I do belive that it is hormone related, trying to find own place in the world, etc.

Good luck and I really sympathise with the whole 'stuck in a rut' thing

[fluffles]

well done OP

personally i don't like the phrase 'back chat' at all - maybe in school, but not at home, to me it implies that children should listen and obey and not 'talk back' but why not? they're not little soldiers, they're people, why shouldn't they talk back?
i KNOW how hard it is when stuff needs done and there's somewhere to be, but just taking a moment to get them onside with what needs done rather than issuing orders can pay dividends.

also, you're the adult, you need to just smile to yourself in some of these arguements and 'agree to disagree' even if you know you're right--

[highhopes2010]

Thanks Somekindof and Fluffles.I know this is not the end of my ds "opinions" but I was a bit lost and think we did get to the point of jumping down his throat for the tiniest thing he said against us(feeling so guilty now)because it was all building up.Am determined to be back on track as a good listener for him and am going to ignore the daft stuff.But as tooposh said if he does something seriously wrong(which he almost never has-oh god what happened to me?)then we will sort it out when (if)it comes to it.

[SarkyLady]

Also make sure that he understands why you don't want him to do particular things. For example, does he realise that you find the talking back hurtful and that it upsets you? Or does he think you're enforcing rules for the sake of it?

[highhopes2010]

I think it got to the point with ds that he thought we were doing it for the sake of it tbh.We have always explained why we set rules for things in place.And as with Somekindof we have listened to his pov.But for eg he will sometimes make daft noises like beeping sounds but at the top of his voice then we ask him to stop or go and do it elsewhere(bedroom/outside)and he will always do it once more after we ask him not to.That is just one thing,that will go for anything we ask him to stop doing,eg winding the dog up in the living room and lots of other things.But for an honest opinion do you Sarkylady or anyone else have this or even been through it?It does'nt sound like much but I could give a list if anyone wanted?Then maybe we could all compare?

[CeliaFate]

I could have written your post word for word highhopes, except mine's a dd.
I realised her stroppy behaviour and lack of co-operation were due to me and dh being overly strict. I pulled back, gave her some slack and she really appreciated it.
Dd will do anything BUT what you've asked her to do lately eg if I say "time to clean your teeth" she will "remember" something urgent that she has to find/do and then runs off. I find deep breathing and plenty of wine helps!

[highhopes2010]

Well I have stuck to the conversation I had with ds and everything going great CeliaFate.Yes he does still moan and is still a bit cheeky but we're a lot happier.I felt like we were forever telling him off(probably were).It was awful for us so I can't imagine what it was like for him?I am definately more laid back with him though and he's noticed and appreciated it.This thread has helped out so much and I'm so grateful to all the opinions from you all.Thank you all(again)..

[quirrelquarrel]

Do remember that hormones aren't just a myth- they really do take over your mind and make you feel unreasonably strongly about silly things (like being asked to do chores which would take a minute to do).

[meditrina]

I've got one of these!

The way he talks at the moment can be exasperating (though I do sometimes wonder/hope about a glittering career in the law, given his way of arguing and use of detail!)

It's not what he says, it's the way he says it. I'm having a crackdown at the moment about moaning/complaining - as I began to wonder if he'd actually realised he was giving out a barrage of negativity. So I'm asking him, as a counterbalance to find a good/happy/positive thing to say as well. And also asking him to think about, having spelt out the problem, what he'd like the solution to be and what would make everyone happiest. I'm also telling him that it's not what he says - how he says it is part of the message. Being right is not enough; he needs to think about being persuasive, and making his point without flatly contradicting his interlocutor (even simple things, like starting his sentence "yes, and..." rather than "no, because ...")

Now all that is a lot to ask of a 10 year old, but it is helping in terms of self awareness and learning to consider his impact on others. And at least it has introduced some variety to our exchanges.