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(148 Posts)
Tea1Sugar Sat 15-Feb-14 19:20:47

I just got a mirror to inspect my lady garden and. my fanny looks like a yeti.

Desperately desperately need a wax. Anyone else been ignoring their "upkeep"?! I'll book one for Tuesday at 31 weeks and hopefully that'll last me until another one at 38 weeks before elcs.

Poor poor dp :-(

MrsRV Sat 15-Feb-14 19:51:40

I stood starkers in front of full length mirror yesterday... I think because I can't see down there I haven't thought too much about it. I really FUCKING should have grin

firstbaby01 Sat 15-Feb-14 19:56:11

This thread made me lol grin I'm too much of a wimp to go for a wax but DP has already been informed of his duties with a razor when my belly gets too big!

Writerwannabe83 Sat 15-Feb-14 20:07:27

I last shaved about a month ago and I will be doing it again tomorrow. I'm mentally preparing myself for how much of a nightmare it is going to be, don't our bumps realise how inconveniently placed they are?! smile

BakingBad Sat 15-Feb-14 20:43:13

Poor poor dp :-( confusedhmm

Does your 'poor' dp also have the hair ripped from his genitals?

SweetPea86 Sat 15-Feb-14 22:05:48

I can't see mine any more had to ask hubby to hold a mirror while I attempted to tidy it up lol

So embarrassing I'm quite funny on that and my hubby always only sees me tidy and trimmed. But all dignity went out the window since he's helped me clean up my sick from all over the house whilst being pregnant. I've left it for a month too now and it's going to take a few blades to get through the scary jungle.

ElBombero Sat 15-Feb-14 22:10:05

Poor DPshockconfused just wait till you've had the bloody baby, there won't be any time for a wax

IdaClair Sat 15-Feb-14 22:10:15

I don't do anything to mine pregnant or not. So it doesn't make any difference.

DP is not poor or upset in any way by my normal natural body hair, I am not poor or upset In Any way by his natural body hair.

I would not be pleased with any partner who required me to rip out my hair by its roots before he found me sexually attractive.

Larty74 Sat 15-Feb-14 22:16:40

35 weeks here and from the waist (wait, what waist?!) down, the bits that i can actually see make me too scared to even attempt a quick peek at the bits i cant! Anyway, i keep hearing how extra sensitive you are when pregnant in any waxable area. Is this true?

I am in excruciating pain anyway from sciatica/spd, etc, so may not seem so bad after all? blush

CrispyFB Sat 15-Feb-14 22:23:58

I've been epilating my bikini line as I take DS (2) for swimming lessons once a week. It's not been painful at all and there's no rash or anything and it takes a few minutes once a week. It's a lot less faff than anything else especially as I have SPD too. Nearly 35 weeks now!

Not doing it for DH though, doing it for my dignity in front of all the other mothers (who, to be fair, would probably understand, but still!) at the swimming pool!

CareBearWithFangs Sat 15-Feb-14 22:26:12

I went for a wax when I was 37 weeks in my last pregnancy. I swear it was more painful than giving birth. I shall be shaving everything myself during this pregnancy.

greentshirt Sat 15-Feb-14 22:29:58

I've kept up as usual, I just dont have as much off as I did before as its a bit awkward for the girl doing the waxing as much as for me with my belly in the way!

PenguinsEatSpinach Sat 15-Feb-14 22:35:18

Poor DP? What an odd thing to say about a bit of pubic hair.confused

livingzuid Sun 16-Feb-14 03:28:07

I have regular waxing done. Or I did. It's for me as I hate having hair down there. I understand the dp comment though, mine is not fussed either way but it does make things nicer. I had one done at around 18 weeks and the wax was so sore on my skin I don't think I can do it again until after birth sad normally doesn't hurt at all. So dh ventures down with clippers once in a while blush as I can't see. I may try and go just before the birth but don't know if I am brave enough!

SaggyOldClothCatPuss Sun 16-Feb-14 05:26:17

Mines is like a fecking SPORRAN! I did worry about it for a while but I've crucified that as I can't see it I really can't be bothered! blush

Tea1Sugar Sun 16-Feb-14 06:30:33

Woah this was a lighthearted thread! I have my wax done for me because I hate pubic hair, I feel cleaner and nicer without it. And whilst dp loves me unconditionally (pubes included) he does prefer it too. I'm having a section and I don't want a scrub nurse to hack away with a dry bic razor so in my opinion, waxing is better FOR ME. Jeez.

Beccadugs Sun 16-Feb-14 06:59:22

I'm getting DH down there with the clippers soon. Mainly as I don't want to be too hairy for post birth bleeding. sad envy

PenguinsEatSpinach Sun 16-Feb-14 07:24:47

No problem with any of that Tea. But what you said first time was 'poor DP'.hmm

MrsRV Sun 16-Feb-14 07:59:59

oh goodness... what the hell is it with mumsnet sometimes... do people really go through life over analysing every word that is ever spoken or written... who'd have thought poor "DP" could cause so much of a stir. ha!!!!grin I'm sure the comment was made as OP is genuinely consumed with sheer guilt about not ripping her genital hair out by the roots and probably isn't sleeping at night for fear this is wrecking her relationship with DP and in fact.. he'll probably leave her for this very reason alone.

sara1752 Sun 16-Feb-14 08:03:26

I gave it a good attempt till about 30 weeks until I could no longer see, where isnthe cut myself- ouch!

I did it again at 39 as it was out of control, its only after babe was born I looked and I did an awful awful job there was just random areas of fuzz!

SomethingOnce Sun 16-Feb-14 08:24:55

DP helped me out yesterday and did the usual tidy up with the clippers. He made a lovely job of it too, better than I manage when I can see what I'm doing.

What a sweetheart!

Tea1Sugar Sun 16-Feb-14 08:25:54

Exactly that MrsRV! Mumsnet amazes me sometimes!!

MummyPig24 Sun 16-Feb-14 08:55:43

I don't care what Dh thinks, and he isn't bothered, but I do want to keep it short so that post birth care is a bit easier. I gave it a good go a few weeks ago and will again this week ready for the imminent birth. Not that I can see anything so I am living life on the edge and doing it blind.

SweetPea86 Sun 16-Feb-14 10:00:49

I'm sure OP meant all of this in a lighthearted post. There is such a thing as a joke when she said poor dp.

Does us good to take the pee out of ourselves once in a while.

Some people like hairy tuts some don't, no need to be so defensive smile each to their own.

Your post OP cheered me up smile

SaucyJack Sun 16-Feb-14 10:04:59

I've grown mine back a bit recently for the impending as I actually feel more comfortable having people look at it if it's got a bit of a coat on. I just feel "less" naked IYSWIM.

LottyLikesWindows Sun 16-Feb-14 10:21:49

Ladies, in labour the last thing that will be on your mind is how much you resemble Chewbacca - and this is coming from someone who could have easily passed for his long lost twin. Embrace the inner Ewok and have another cake. It's the only way forward grin

SomethingOnce Sun 16-Feb-14 10:33:19

I agree, Saucy. Labouring with a fresh Brazilian would feel a bit inappropriate somehow, like going for a smear test wearing one's pulling loveliest bra and knickers.

I'm going for utilitarian.

PenguinsEatSpinach Sun 16-Feb-14 10:41:53

I couldn't give a toss how the OP - or any other poster- grooms their pubic hair.

My point was that 'poor DP' is an odd joke to make. I would have said the same to "I have put on so much weight this pregnancy. poor dp".

volvocowgirl Sun 16-Feb-14 11:14:49

Chewbacca is a wookie, not an ewok. gringringrin

Preggo and struggling with downstairs hair here too!!

I've been shaving it all as I can't see enough to trim evenly but can 'feel' to shave it all off (and my maternity swimming costume is a bit higher legged than my normal so completely unforgiving in the pube area). But this last week I've just not had the flexibility at all! And I'm due for induction tomorrow. Don't trust OH with a razor as his neck is usually a mess! hmm So I'm going to have an attempt in the bath later, or resign myself to looking like a spiky alien peach downstairs for birth. smile

No experience of waxing in pregnancy personally, but I've been told by a friend (who is hardcore when it comes to body hair removal and waxes regularly) that she found it too painful in pregnancy downstairs to experience it more than once. confused

Snowlet Sun 16-Feb-14 12:38:58

Jesus lord ladies, do you know how much more blood is going to our lady bits right now?? I'm seriously impressed anyone could put up with a wax during pregnancy.

I have taken the electric trimmers to my bits, and it was a struggle to see them, but at least with the guard on (at a #1) I didn't have to worry about nicking myself with a razor. I know it might seem like a luxurious purchase, but I've had my trimmer for years (it's one made for lady parts) and it's been one of my best 'beauty' purchases. When I get even fatter, I'm going to ask DP to do the trimming for me (ahhh, what we do for love)

MrsRV Sun 16-Feb-14 12:45:06

loving the sound of these clippers!!! must ensure poor DH helps grin

Bonnella20 Sun 16-Feb-14 13:01:21

This thread made me lol smile thankyou

I was pretty [shocked] by "poor DP" too, Penguins.

Maybe it's an age thing. In my adult life I have seen pubic hair (or rather lack of) going from something regarded as a bit kinky (there were specialist porn magazines dedicated to it) to a point where, apparently, it is embarrassing to have pubic hair even in the late stages of pregnancy.

Each to their own and everything, but it's a massive shift in "normal" in quite a short period of time.

Snowlet Sun 16-Feb-14 13:15:11

MrsRV I've got a wireless one that takes batteries (not waterproof though) so I just do it standing in the shower and then I shower, it's dead easy smile

BlindKitty Sun 16-Feb-14 13:34:53

I'm totally on the 'poor Dh' bandwagon! Good topiary is just good manners <awaits the feminist backlash>. I'm fortunate in that I've never been able to see that far without my lenses in so I can do if with my eyes shut!

McFox Sun 16-Feb-14 13:50:39

I'm normally impeccably groomed down there, but with spd it's proving very difficult! Is it my imagination or have growth rates increased dramatically?! I'm terrified of hot wax at the moment though, DH will be wielding the clippers soon I think! smile

livingzuid Sun 16-Feb-14 14:05:40

confused at the bosom clutching of the 'poor dh' comment. I always feel bad if dh encounters a forest even though he's unfussed.

Asked him for lady clippers which I think is a genius idea to which he sniffed and said his were perfectly adequate grin

LottyLikesWindows Sun 16-Feb-14 14:05:45

I know Volvo I was just trying to get in as many furry creature references in as possible grin

Evie2014 Sun 16-Feb-14 14:57:34

I've had two waxes done (22 weeks). There's a place near me that does the Lycon wax which is much, much less painful. Really nothing more than a couple of twinges, certainly not grip-the-table-and-roar stuff.

DH doesn't seem to notice whether I'm waxed or not! I do a full wax because it's easier to keep clean (especially given the, erm, loo issues this pregnancy, yeuch) and I do it regularly because it doesn't hurt if it's not a huge bushwhacking job.

I hope that it will make healing after birth easier too. That's why professional cyclists shave their legs- because hairy legs mean cuts and grazes are more likely to get infected. (Or so I've been told.)

livingzuid Sun 16-Feb-14 15:04:46

Is lycon the hot wax? I don't have strippwaxing down there thank god and normally it doesn't hurt but it was more the heat of the wax rather than the rest of it. Intrigued if there is something else to try...

Mummytobe2014 Sun 16-Feb-14 15:05:36

Im 37 weeks tomorrow and shave (blinded) once a week roughly, I just go for it lol it does seem to be decreasing in size though shock. I know what op means when she says poor dp! grin

Evie2014 Sun 16-Feb-14 15:09:56

Yes Lycon is a hot wax but it's different from other hot waxes- more rubbery or something. No idea where it comes from but definitely less painful.

I'm not bosom clutching - just trying to understand why someone would risk injuring themselves or put themselves through considerable discomfort in order to save their husbands from female pubic hair.

Things are very, very different now than a few years ago, when it honestly wouldn't have occurred to most women to do this, especially not during pregnancy.

re hygiene, I can understand why people find they feel cleaner without pubic hair, especially post-birth, but depilation puts you at risk of some nasty skin infections. It's not that clear cut, basically (pardon the pun).

Showy Sun 16-Feb-14 16:08:44

I think the language used about something as natural as pubic hair is as interesting as it is damming. It's not just the faux 'poor' dh, it's the talk of it being 'nicer' without, 'cleaner', men having to 'venture' down there, 'embarrassing'. I know a couple of men who freely admit that they find pubic hair 'disgusting' and 'expect' women to remove it.

It's quite hard to see it as lighthearted when the language you couch it in is a reflection of some quite iffy and proliferate views.

Evie2014 Sun 16-Feb-14 16:16:03

Sorry, but what's a proliferate view?

Showy Sun 16-Feb-14 16:23:30

Proliferate is what my tablet's autocorrect changes proliferating too. Just did it again. Bloody thing. It also just changed bloody to bloods. Why? Why?

Mintyy Sun 16-Feb-14 16:34:10

Why not get a tatto on your bald badger when its been done saying "sorry dh, luffoo"

SaucyJack Sun 16-Feb-14 16:44:18

Piss off back to the feminist boreds some of you...........

PenguinsEatSpinach Sun 16-Feb-14 16:47:11

I think you'll find that opinions are allowed on all boards actually. Even feminist ones.

Mintyy Sun 16-Feb-14 16:48:37

Piss off? that's not very nice.

batteryhen Sun 16-Feb-14 16:51:24

As usual even a light hearted thread gets over analysed as only mumsnet can.

OP I get your point! With my DS I had a wax at about 38weeks and I am glad I did as I had a section and the nurse was going to shave me. I'm now pregnant with DC2 and will be doing the same. I can't stand pubes!

Mintyy Sun 16-Feb-14 16:54:41

But it isn't a light hearted subject matter to some of us, it is deadly serious. I don't want to piss off back to the feminism boards as I don't spend any time there.

But this demonising of pubic hair is frightening, not funny.

Procrastinating Sun 16-Feb-14 16:56:41

I find this really shocking and not lighthearted in the least. I will indeed piss off, because I can't understand how you don't see it.

Showy, exactly.

Procrastinating Sun 16-Feb-14 16:57:42

Yes Mintyy, quite.

SaucyJack Sun 16-Feb-14 16:59:15

Piss off? that's not very nice.

Actually, neither's what you're doing.

This is a jokey for those of us who're heavily pg to let off a bit of worry in the last few weeks/days.

If you don't want ot join in with the spirit of it, then do feel free to sod off.

Mintyy Sun 16-Feb-14 17:02:33

Sod off isn't very nice either. Public forum, important subject matter, people feel strongly about it, it is not your place to tell them they can't contribute.

McFox Sun 16-Feb-14 17:02:33

Frightening?! The must find the world to be a truly monstrous place if a bit of fanjo waxing strikes fear into your heart.

Mintyy Sun 16-Feb-14 17:02:51


Evie2014 Sun 16-Feb-14 17:07:56

I didn't say "cleaner"; I said "easier to keep clean." Which it is, isn't it? Especially when you can't wipe very well because of a big belly. And various bits of poop/dried discharge get caught in the hair if you can't reach to clean properly. (TMI??) And, erm, the piles make everything more complicated.

Nobody should be told to piss off. Or to go back to the feminist board. I'll happily put my hands up as a proud feminist. I don't think that's lessened by the fact that I wax.

Supercalafraga Sun 16-Feb-14 17:09:59

demonising pubic hair is frightening


That made me laugh out loud.
If that is how you felt feel you need to open your eyes and look out of your bubble. In this world we live in there are TRULY horrid things. The freedom to choose what to do with ones own body hair is certainly not one of them.

OP was expressing something that she doesn't like - personally. She was not advocating that all mankind agree with her. We all have different tastes in all areas, which we are entitled to. I challenge all those who have bitten off OPs head to announce something trivial that they don't like - and someone will certainly have an opinion on it. But somehow I don't think they would be brave, or lighthearted enough!

OP I am personally with you on this one! 30 weeks and still go for my regular wax - damn it hurts - but to me it is worth it grin

HumphreyCobbler Sun 16-Feb-14 17:10:10

"piss off back to the feminist boards"

bloody hell that is rude.

I agree with mintyy

HumphreyCobbler Sun 16-Feb-14 17:12:55

if you can't see that the attitude towards pubic hair on women is symptomatic of a wider attitude in society towards women then I really do despair.

It is about seeing the whole bubble ffs, not just part of it. <strains analogy>

Treaclepot Sun 16-Feb-14 17:16:22

So glad I never had to worry about a bit of a hairy muff, I love my short and curlies all soft and sexy.

It's such a generational thing, a bald fanny makes me think of little girls or porn. Both of which are a bit of a turn off.

For me being pregnant the biggest annoyance was not being able to cut my toe nails and having a foot phobe as a husband. Now curly toe nails are proper vile.

Treaclepot Sun 16-Feb-14 17:18:19

And absolutely agree with humphrey and Mintyy, it's part of something far more sinister than a bit of hair, but sadly lots of women are blinded by years of being fed shite from social media, tv and magazines that they don't get it.

batteryhen Sun 16-Feb-14 17:20:43

This thread is making me laugh. Frightening Oh dear.If you are that ssensitive then just don't comment. Sometimes I even make my DH his favourite dinner. I hope that revelation doesn't scare anyone. I would hate to give anyone nightmares.

Supercalafraga Sun 16-Feb-14 17:24:09

I understand where you are coming from BUT I do think it is also generational and ultimately a personal decision that shouldn't be judged by others.

I was blessed hmm with lots of hair - everywhere! none of which I like... I personally feel so much cleaner and better waxed.

Have you ever given it a try?! You might surprise yourself grin

McFox Sun 16-Feb-14 17:28:36

Can I just point out that everyone on this thread is a grown up, we haven't been brainwashed by the media - how fkn patronising and judgemental. As lots of people have pointed out we just like to be neat and tidy, and won't apologise for that.

PenguinsEatSpinach Sun 16-Feb-14 17:29:00

Most of us aren't commenting on the fact of waxing per se, but the perceived obligation to do so.

batteryhen Sun 16-Feb-14 17:30:09

This thread is making me laugh. Frightening ?? Oh dear.If you are that sensitive then just don't comment. Sometimes I even make my DH his favourite dinner. I hope that revelation doesn't scare anyone. I would hate to give anyone nightmares.

Supercalafraga Sun 16-Feb-14 17:30:29

batteryhen sometimes I refuse to kiss my DH when he hasnt shaved.... He has particularly spiky regrowth.

runs and hides with blinkers on from all the scariness of this statement

batteryhen Sun 16-Feb-14 17:31:52

The OP didn't say she was obligated to get rid of her pubes for her DP. A lot of posters are assuming that.

PenguinsEatSpinach Sun 16-Feb-14 17:34:07

No. She said her 'poor' partner that she hadn't. That implies that you are short changing or inconveniencing him in some way.

Now pregnancy snoring, there it really is poor DH.smile

batteryhen Sun 16-Feb-14 17:34:13

LOL @ Super

batteryhen Sun 16-Feb-14 17:35:17

It implies what the reader wants it to.
I read it as a lighthearted joke.

Legalbaby79 Sun 16-Feb-14 17:36:58

Can you use hair removal cream ??? Far easy to slap it on rather than risk major surgery with a razor ?!?

McFox Sun 16-Feb-14 17:39:01

Twisting words to suit your own agenda, how proud you must feel!

PenguinsEatSpinach Sun 16-Feb-14 17:42:54

Me? I haven't twisted anything. And I have said very clearly that I don't care what the OP does with her pubes. Just that it is odd to filter it through a perceived detriment to your partner. Joke or otherwise.

livingzuid Sun 16-Feb-14 17:56:57

Thanks evie evie I will ask my salon about the wax they use. They are these wonderful but slightly scary Moroccan women who always tell me off if I don't exfoliate properly grin

Johnny apologies I wasn't saying you personally.

As for the demonising of pubic hair and reading into one comment confused I have been having full wax removal since I was 22 and single because I prefer it, as did many of my friends. It's hardly as if this is a new innovation, it's been going on for hundreds of years. Actually everything feels better when I am fuzz free, legs, down there, armpits. Why is it so hard to accept that millions of women do this around the world simply because it feels so much nicer than being hairy and sweaty? Don't care if someone else chooses not to but credit us with brains for being able to make our own decisions.

Right now I resemble a forest pretty much all over and can't wait to be able to do my own legs again and head to my scary ladies for my waxing.

Some of these posts come across as very ott towards choices we are allowed to make over our own bodies as grown ups and very anti male which is not fair.

livingzuid Sun 16-Feb-14 18:00:06

And I thought the poor dp comment was lighthearted. Mine has had to be all over my nether regions with his clippers as have others by the sound of things. Poor dhs/dps indeed grin

Mintyy Sun 16-Feb-14 18:03:10

The demonising of pubic hair is frightening to me.

What if my dd decides she doesn't want to embark on the treadmill that is pubic grooming? What if she feels she has better things to do with her time and is not in the least inconvenienced by having pubes.

But then what if she gets into bed with a man (or woman for that matter) who says that pubes are unacceptable and unhygienic? What if she then feels obliged to groom in order to be acceptable to her partner? This is becoming increasingly likely with so many people buying in to this strange new attitude towards pubic hair, particularly female pubic hair.

Why can't you see that a mum might be frightened of attitudes like that? Presumably because you haven't thought very deeply around the subject and what it represents.

intheround Sun 16-Feb-14 18:09:06

On a practical note, just be really careful about hair removal if you have stretch marks as the skin will be thinner,or varicose veins.

batteryhen Sun 16-Feb-14 18:10:21

If your Dd doesn't want to wax the she doesn't have to. It's a bit of hair. I think you are massively over thinking this. Are you saying your Dd won't know her own mind or make her own choices? Yes I agree that is frightening that you give her so little credit.

Supercalafraga Sun 16-Feb-14 18:11:17

mintyy are you also going to feel demonised by your daughter maybe one day wanting to dye or blow dry her hair? How about a little eye liner? Or even perfume?

If my daughter decided one day pubic hair is what she wanted and someone told her she was less of a person because of it.... I would hope that I would have been instrumental in ensuring that her self esteem and self worth outweighed their opinion and she was confident in her choice and would choose to move on. quickly.

I wonder how my mum and OPs mum would feel knowing that you are being so judgemental about us?

HumphreyCobbler Sun 16-Feb-14 18:14:42

and meanwhile all girls feel they have to wax or they will be considered unclean and untidy.... their poor boyfriends hmm

batteryhen Sun 16-Feb-14 18:21:22

Sorry Humphrey I missed the post that said all girls must wax or they will feel unclean. Can you point it out to me or is that just another assumption?

What a shame that the OP started this as a lighthearted thread concerning pubes and pregnancy and it has been overtaken by posters determined to make it into another issue. No wonder she hasn't come back. How typical of mumsnet to trash someone because of the choice of words she used.

Mintyy Sun 16-Feb-14 18:23:04

"mintyy are you also going to feel demonised by your daughter maybe one day wanting to dye or blow dry her hair? How about a little eye liner? Or even perfume?"

No, why on earth are you asking me that? have you read what I have written?

HumphreyCobbler Sun 16-Feb-14 18:26:23

who is trashing her? Not me. Although I may have felt a bit gutted if reading this when pg, so I do hope you are not feeling too got at OP.

this is an important issue though, I am surprised you can't see it batteryhen. I have a daughter and I do worry for her. Removal of pubic hair is difficult, time consuming and often painful, and costs money. And you MUST see that society deems it necessary now in a way it just didn't twenty years ago sad

Mintyy Sun 16-Feb-14 18:32:27

It is not a light-hearted subject, it is important.

And I honestly couldn't care less what individuals choose to do with their pubes, but I do care when all the "eew, yuck, don't like it" comments start. That is very judgemental of other women and you are being extremely dense if you refuse to acknowledge that.

By the way, I hardly ever comment on these threads - there are literally hundreds of them - but I felt like doing so today.

McFox Sun 16-Feb-14 18:51:52

The only ones here being judgemental Mintyy are you and Humphrey. You have chosen to take a lighthearted thread and turn it into a crusade.

SomethingOnce Sun 16-Feb-14 18:58:29

To be fair, they are expressing valid opinion/concern, not judging anyone or crusading.

And Saucy was rude.

Mintyy Sun 16-Feb-14 19:01:55


PenguinsEatSpinach Sun 16-Feb-14 19:04:46

Actually, Mintyy's scenario is neither unlikely or 'over thinking'. There was an eloquent thread a while back where a number of younger (early 20s) posters commented on bullying they had witnessed around this issue. 'Having' to wear lace knickers on PE day to prove you were clean shaven. Whispering campaigns against girls who didn't conform. Disgusted comments from partners.There appears to be a real issue with this 'choice' becoming another obligation in younger women.

Then there are the threads by older posters worrying what medical staff will think. Or whether a new partner after a divorce will be repelled by au naturel.

As I said, I don't give two hoots with what an individual does. But it does have a wider context.

Thing is, it is new, at least it is to many of us. When I was in my 20s very, very few British women removed all their pubic hair. A man expressing disgust at pubic hair on women would have been regarded as a bit odd and having a thing for bare pudenda was 'specialist'.

Waxing your pubic hair is expensive and not without risks. Shaving it when you can barely see it sounds horrific.

Maybe it's just a fashion (as a luxuriant, silky bush would have been in the 80s and 90s) but it's not one that sits right with me. I think the suspicion some of us regard it with, especially in the context of 'poor husbands' and given the added inconvenience, pain and risk to oneself in doing it in pregnancy, is pretty understandable.

batteryhen Sun 16-Feb-14 19:21:29

humphrey no I don't see it, shave, wax or grow full pubic hair. Surely it's a choice. Anyway, I'm heading off this thread. I must say I do feel very sorry for the Op, in posting an innocent thread, through her choice of words she obviously feels she can't or doesn't want to come back.

Mintyy Sun 16-Feb-14 19:24:25

Batteryhen, of course it is all a choice. But its not an easy choice to leave it ungroomed if all around you insist that it is undesirable to do so.

YoniMatopoeia Sun 16-Feb-14 19:27:39

it's not cleaner to shave

And yes it is important. I am with mintyy on this one.

McFox Sun 16-Feb-14 19:28:59

We're not talking about young people here, we're talking about a bunch of grown ups who have every right to do with their bodies whatever they see fit, being harangued because some of you don't agree with their opinions.

Now, rather than just to back off and/or not bother commenting on something that was of no interest to you other than as a sounding board for your own opinions, you have used a lighthearted thread to slate everyone else on here who was having a laugh about.

You are being judgemental IMO, and are using this to your push your own agenda. It's pretty sad, and I feel bad for the OP as she's clearly started off a jokey thread only for it be hijacked.

It's is very odd that now it seems to be the norm to shave or remove pubic hair, 20 years ago it was the opposite and men who liked it were viewed rather suspiciously. I'd hate to think dd was now under pressure to remove sad.

PenguinsEatSpinach Sun 16-Feb-14 19:33:18

I know we aren't talking about young people. I didn't say we were. I was talking about choices having a societal context.

squizita Sun 16-Feb-14 19:33:59

Johnny Luxurient bush in the 90s?? Not where I came from. Having a "massive bush" as it was called was NOT the done thing. I've always trimmed (neat and short but not waxed: I find it more comfortable especially during periods or hot weather) but was viewed as quite 'natural' even back in the day. I am a bit mystified by the idea it's a very new thing to trim: it's the going 'bare' I think is newer but crucially it is the bullying culture - and that's linked to learning to think via the internet where quickness-to-judge and image are key.

But I think the idea we could all be au naturelle back in the 90s is rose tinted (and a way of making the current bullying culture a naive 'young woman who need protecting' problem - something that happens to other women who we older, wiser feminists worry about - rather than admitting that there was an element of that pressure for many of us back then and we either bucked the trend or went with it).

I thought the OP meant DP was going to have to fiddle around with a razor at her demand hence 'poor'.

I believe in the 70s and before they'd shave YOU in hospital, for hygiene reasons! shock

Tea1Sugar Sun 16-Feb-14 19:34:21

To those who have supported my attempt at a lighthearted thread, thank you. To everyone else who has done nothing but a) make out I'm submissive to my dp, 2) made out my dp is a dominating individual, 3) made out that I conform to some sort of pubic hair trend, thanks for all making me feel shit.

Nobody is haranguing. I would hate a pregnant woman to feel obliged to remove her pubic hair on the basis of threads like this, and it's perfectly reasonable to point out that there is no need to (and indeed that it's probably best to leave it alone).

livingzuid Sun 16-Feb-14 19:40:17

Women have hair removal. An increasing amount of men go for hair removal. I imagine few men going for a back sac and crack simply to please someone else. 20 years is a long time for something to be around its not new.

Some partners prefer women and or men without hair. Some partners prefer hair. The vast majority really don't mind either way. As for the school comment that behaviour sounds typical. If it wasn't about pubes it would be something else.

You're on a thread full of grown women incubating babies. It's very easy for us to choose how we groom ourselves.

livingzuid Sun 16-Feb-14 19:53:23

Op don't feel shit. I know what type of wax to ask for at the very least smile

And no one feels obliged for God's sake, particularly going into labour. If you are used to regularly being waxed or shaving or whatever then it's something you wonder about. I certainly do and it would be tmi to explain why. And any beautician worth their salt will advise on what is doable or not depending on how your skin reacts.

Some of these posts are patronising beyond belief.

SomethingOnce Sun 16-Feb-14 19:53:58

If dealing with a bit of other's 'overthinking' on a discussion forum makes you feel 'like shit', you might want to step away from the internet.

greentshirt Sun 16-Feb-14 21:36:08

Why are people assuming it's an all or nothing with the pubes? I keep mine short and have it neatly waxed, it really would be down my legs otherwise. It's no more and no less than that. It's a big jump from yeti to waxing to bald as a golden eagle, not necessarily as sinister as some people are making out!

SomethingOnce Sun 16-Feb-14 21:50:07

I was going to be a smart arse and point out that it's not Golden Eagles that are bald, it's Bald Eagles.

But it turns out (thanks, Wikipedia!) that Bald Eagles aren't bald shock

Bald Eagles are not actually bald; the name derives from an older meaning of "white headed".

So there you go.

greentshirt Sun 16-Feb-14 21:51:16

Hah insert name of other hairless animal here

Beccadugs Sun 16-Feb-14 21:52:23

Naked mole rat?!

SomethingOnce Sun 16-Feb-14 21:56:12

Sphynx cat?

Panzee Sun 16-Feb-14 22:01:11

Don't worry about dry shaving for a section. If you have a section the whole area will be numb for weeks, as long as it takes to grow back. So you will miss out on the itchy stage.

Writerwannabe83 Sun 16-Feb-14 22:05:23

What an eventful bath that was...

Trying to shave my legs was an absolute effort - I could barely breathe by the end of it grin

Then I moved on to attempting a blind shave of my bikini line and bloody hell, it was traumatic!!!! grin I can't believe how difficult it was when only 3 weeks ago I managed no problem!! In the end, after about 10 minutes of faffing about I thought, "Sod it, I can't be arsed" and gave up grin

I'm very disappointed in myself as I SWORE I would never let things get out of control no matter how pregnant I was!!! It is definitely tidier than it was but definitely not to my usual standard grin

The obligation comes from reading that other pregnant women feel unclean and less desirable if they can't remove their public hair.

That impression had to be questioned. If someone had posted a 'lighthearted' thread about not feeling able to do pretty much anything unnecessary because of their pregnancy, especially if it came across as being for their husband's sake, I'd have said the same.

Showy Mon 17-Feb-14 08:58:36

I don't give a monkey's what other people do with their pubic hair. As long as it's their choice.

As I said earlier, the language we have started to couch this is has become worrying. And please don't take my words and twist them as you did with the word frightening. I am not worried about waxing or pubic hair, I'm worried about the attitude. Just like a poster before me was frightened of a prevalent attitude. The creeping assumptions about hygiene which are actually inaccurate for example. It always reminds me of the circumcision argument. Many, many men and women who live in cultures where it's been normal for years say a circumcised man just seems 'cleaner' and cleanliness is still trotted out as a reason for doing it. No, I am not making a direct comparison between circumcision and pubic hair removal either, I'm merely acknowledging the way the words we use around something, can seep into the public consciousness. The hyperbole of forests and bushes and out of control and poor menz, all add up to something greater than a few woman on a public forum having a lighthearted chat about personal grooming.

You have to think outside this thread. There are hundreds of threads on MN alone discussing this. Women aghast about attending a smear without grooming, a very memorable thread where a HCP talked about colleagues 'laughing' at women with natural pubic hair and many, many references to how much cleaner, nicer and more hygienic it is. Go to YouTube and watch a beautiful, natural delivery of a baby. Then read the vile and disgusting views underneath about the woman who hasn't removed her pubic hair. Because a video for public consumption showing a woman with pubic hair has been reduced down to a niche fetish. You can't deny what the porn industry has done to the perception of pubic hair. Porn is everywhere. You take the mildest images in newspapers and magazines and splashed across billboards and women are hair free. All the way through to the hardcore stuff. The hair has been removed so that the male gaze is unimpeded. Women are stripped bare. And it's about gratification. Is this RL? Nope. Does it affect RL? My God yes.

I could list here the tales of women I know who have gone back to dating after years of marriage and a divorce, the things I've heard from a couple of much younger friends and very sadly, what I'm told by my teenage niece about attitudes from other girls in the school changing room. I could compare it to how things were when I was growing up. Is there pressure there from a young age now? Disgust? Feelings of shame? Alarmingly so. I can ensure my dd has the best self esteem I can equip her with. I can encourage her, I can lead by example but when she's 15 and the only girl who does differently and is singled out for it, can I stop how that feels? And when it's a wider issue? When the boys turning into men around her are chasing out a generation where there is an 'expected' norm and it's in no small part influenced by the exploitation of women through porn. Where people can levy charges of 'unhygienic' at her and say it with utter confidence. When the tabloids and magazines publish 'shock horror, woman with armpit hair, euuuugggghhhh' stories to promote shame over something natural. Am I allowed to worry about my dd growing up to believe that her own body 'should' be or do anything as dictated by external influences? I think I am. And I think I probably should.

A lighthearted thread about personal grooming is in theory, fine. Trying to shave your legs or trim your pubic hair is the same as trying to tie your shoelaces or put on your knickers or sit down on the floor with a toddler. It's cumbersome and annoying and funny and something to chatter about. But of course we don't make value judgements about people with accidental odd socks. We shrug, laugh and move on. The language we use about pubic hair is something else entirely.

SomethingOnce Mon 17-Feb-14 10:11:54

Great post, Showy.

It doesn't trouble me that this thread is both lighthearted and thoughtful and I'm not sure why anyone has felt judged, harangued etc.

I feel entirely comfortable asking for my lovely DP's help with grooming, while being massively concerned about the deep misogyny I see all around me, particularly the specific issue discussed here.

DP has read the thread too because bits of it made me LOL. Nothing said makes him uncomfortable as a man because, as a human, he shares the same concerns, not least because his child will have to find her way in a world in which women and girls remain unequal.

HumphreyCobbler Mon 17-Feb-14 10:17:27

What an excellent post Showy.

Mintyy Mon 17-Feb-14 10:31:57

Thumbs up Showy. Am sad that people need it spelled out to them, but glad you had the time and inclination to do it.

plus3 Mon 17-Feb-14 10:34:36

Showy so well put.
sometimes it takes 'lighthearted' threads to touch a nerve and just think alittle bit deeper about why we do what we do, why we make the choices that we do.
I see nothing wrong with that.

Mummytobe2014 Mon 17-Feb-14 11:04:37

Tea1sugar dont take it personally everyone has different views on these subjects, its not worth taking to heart! I understand where ur coming from as per my prev post but its something i have always done it wasnt down to bullying or magazines but experimenting as you do when your young whether its plucking your eyebrows or shaving your legs and so its been part of my routine since i was about 15 now 31! My dp isnt bothered either way however if i let it grow due to my own laziness/forgetfullness then i wld also say poor dp because he is used to it being a certain way but not because he expects it to be a certain way.

I am interested in other views on the subject but im not offended by them so pls dnt feel like shit because of them smile

livingzuid Mon 17-Feb-14 12:07:11

beautifully put mummytobe2014

Thanks for saying the rest of us are dumbasses mintyy unable to make own decisions or too stupid to see what evils there are in a bikini wax.

We're all well aware of the problems of body image in society which affects both men and women by the way. And if you can't teach your children how to be decent human beings, to ignore what a random and insignificant bunch of pathetic prepubescent strangers/adults with no life do on the Internet and how to stand up for themselves in school and in life because inevitably there are twats all over, as well as to respect themselves and one another and make choices they are comfortable with, then you've failed as a parent.

If you can't see that the issue has fuck all to do with pubic hair and everything to do with failings in culture and society egged on by the likes of celebrity culture and Perez Hilton type bitchyness which, by the way, begins at home with what boys and girls learn, then perhaps you should post somewhere else and let the rest of us pregnant women look forward to the time that we can resume our personal grooming again and how best we can manage till then.

If you don't wax, shave, epilate, whatever, thats absolutely fine. But don't make out you are some sort of moral superior over women who choose from their own free will to do so.

And urgh less of the man hating insinuations reducing them to mindless beasts and dark references to paedophilia preferences. How ridiculous to tar 3.5 billion of the world's population with the same brush.

By the way, porn has been around since the dawn of time. Pubescent boys and I'm pretty sure some girls, will be doing all they can to get their hands on it as often as possible, whether you like it or not. And it is actually a safe way of self sexual exploration and I know this because I live in a country where people couldn't give two hoots about porn and has one of the lowest teenage pregnancy rates in Europe.

Actually, if I wasn't pregnant I'd suggest a joint or two. Might relax people's hysteria a bit as well as not sending my pg hormones into [anger]

I'm off but OP I liked your thread, shame some people tried to turn it into an inappropriate place to spout off nonsense.

Best take my ignorance back to my waxing salon where I'm going to brave another Brazilian. Can't wait. Dh is going to love it grin

ziggletttwiglett Mon 17-Feb-14 12:16:02

This is hilarious! !

can I ask have any of you ever "gone down" on a woman with a hairy muff? I personally haven't but I can imagineit would be something like licking that bit of carpet by the window where the dog lays...

I will agree I personally find something a bit creepy and pre pubescent about a completely shaven haven but there is no shame in being "well groomed"

I sure hope to god that any of those who are making such a fuss about those of us who like to keep tidy are not shaving there legs armpits and any other region either... because there was once a time when women didnt hack of that section of hair either!

And if we really going to get on to the "brainwashed by media and its a generation thing..." then can I please remind you all women having been rear arranging their livers and various other organs in corsets and poisoning themselves with lead based make up to look prettier for years.... each to their own clearly. Times HAVE changed thats life! Im sure in years to come we will be blessed with our children doing things that seemsilly to us!

I would also like to add that I while I do keep tidy down there I would be offended if oh was "disgusted" by it butif Ihe was I wouldn't be with him having his child now would I....

Mummytobe2014 Mon 17-Feb-14 12:18:33

Thanks livingzuid, enjoy your brazilian smile

Writerwannabe83 Mon 17-Feb-14 12:25:20

grin zigglettwiglett - your hairy muff/dogs part of the carpet analogy nearly made me choke on my sandwich grin

HumphreyCobbler Mon 17-Feb-14 12:29:45

bloody hell

SomethingOnce Mon 17-Feb-14 12:32:15

can I ask have any of you ever "gone down" on a woman with a hairy muff? I personally haven't but I can imagineit would be something like licking that bit of carpet by the window where the dog lays...

And there you go.

Oh dear.

HumphreyCobbler Mon 17-Feb-14 12:33:36


ziggletttwiglett Mon 17-Feb-14 12:38:51

Just too add surely this is no different to a man shaving
His beard??? My OH has long stubble which I find very sexy some women prefer baby bottom smooth... I would sure as hell be a bit put off if he had a never ending growing flop of haor growing. And sharing my kisses with this morning cornflakes..... other women will find men with long beards attractive there is nothing wrong with any of these opinions!


HumphreyCobbler Mon 17-Feb-14 12:41:17

if your post is to be believed zigglett then we all have to do it in order to avoid being like a rancid dog carpet. ffs.

you are proving exactly the opposite point to that you wish to make

McFox Mon 17-Feb-14 12:41:47

Love it livingzuid, thank you smile

zigglettwiglett - I feel the same way about reciprocating when things ain't tidy in DH's world smile

Rejoice grown ups of the world that we are free to do as we wish with our pubes!

ziggletttwiglett Mon 17-Feb-14 12:48:49

humphrey you have got my post very wrong. That is MY personal opinion! That is what I believe my oh feels when I don't keep on top of my lady garden... there are plenty of men and women who don't have that opinion and love hair down there.. go on a porn site there is normally a category for "hairy"

my total point is that it doesn't matter whether you do or dont like it its your choice!!! If MY opinion of it being like
A hairy carpet gets to you then maybe you should shave itnoff! If on the other hand you are comfortable with you own opinion and are not wavered by OTHERS OR THE MEDIA then you would NOT have taken offence by my post.....

so dont ffs me for believing in my own choices. YOU are making it sound like personal choice should be changed because of what others think... I am happy with my decisions and own thoughts.

HumphreyCobbler Mon 17-Feb-14 12:54:59

read showy's excellent post, she said it much better than I could

and your post makes me think FFS. You have not managed to change my response by your later post, in fact you have consolidated it.

ziggletttwiglett Mon 17-Feb-14 13:08:46

Haha thats ridiculous.

What is so wrong with personal choice?

my child will be given masses of encouragement to be comfortable with their own thoughts and choices the same way I have.

You im afraid are the wrong one here. Have you readnmy post about cornflakes in my oh beard?? Because its the same damn thing personal sodding choice!

Im not the one sat here saying shaving is wrong or rightor trying to influence others to join me on my anti hair raid because im not.

I will not however be told by you that my post is wrong. PERSONALLY I dont like licking my partners pubes because the hairs gets stuck in my teeth and down the back of my throat does it worry me the my partnernwould have to go through the same thing with me? Yes because it makes it much less enjoyable thats our choice as a couple.

did I just last week go swimming when I hadnt shaved for 3 weeks and have mynpubes hanging out? Yes I did did I care? No! Im comfortable with me and I will try my damn hardest tonmake sure my children are the same.

it is not MY fault so many are uncomfortable with their own choices.and with regards to showys posts kids are kids and even adults are adults that life unfortunately. And if you really think posting on here about how porn and media has ruined self image is going to make a difference let me tell you its not. We all know its there every day in every way and we can't stop it.

all we can do is try our hardest to teach our children to belive in themselves even if it does take untill adult hood for them to get there. Its just unfortunate that there will be so many people including yourself willing to knock their opinions down.

I will lose no sleep over this but unfortunately others will question why someone has bashed their opinion.

Showy Mon 17-Feb-14 13:26:38

I did try to explain the difference between personal choice and public pressure in my post but obviously failed. Please re-read the bit where I said it doesn't matter what people do if it's a free choice. How do you know I don't wax? Or groom? I said nothing about what I do and I criticised no woman for making her own personal decisions. What I talked about was an insidious attitude towards pubic hair which- whether you want to admit it or not- can be damaging. It isn't the most damaging thing or the problem in its entirety. But it is a problem.

But you know what, go on accusing me of being anti-waxing or grooming. I might be completely hair-free. It doesn't matter about my personal choice or anybody else's personal choice. What matters is the myths and stereotypes we perpetuate through adding value judgements to our choices. However, if you're happier comparing pubic hair to germ-ridden dog carpet and somehow thinking that's a salient point, then go ahead. How funny and lighthearted.

hubbahubster Mon 17-Feb-14 13:29:18

I'm actually shock at how daft this thread has got.

OP, your original post made me chortle. I know I shouldn't be surprised by how much comment it's generated, since I use mumsnet quite a lot, but I really am.

ziggletttwiglett Mon 17-Feb-14 13:34:37

Showy I must apologise. The only section of my last post aimed at you was that kids will be kids etc I aimed nothing else at you so I apologise if you readnit that way.

but with regards to germ ridden dog carpet.. go back untwist words and bloody apologise! not once did I mention dirt ridden. Just the fact that it would be likenthat because of the amount of hair... maybe i should have used hairdressers floor as an example.

ziggletttwiglett Mon 17-Feb-14 13:35:39

Effing ridiculous at the lengths some.people will go to to take offence to inncocent post.

Poor op comes to.mind.

ILoveDHIDo Mon 17-Feb-14 13:36:35

Agree with IdaClair and also, aren't I going through enough for my 'poor' DH for him to even be concerned about the state of my fanjo?

swampusdonkus Mon 17-Feb-14 15:03:50

I don't wax for how it looks, I wax because it heightens sensitivity and sensation in my fanjo. I don't need to remove everything to achieve this but certainly trimming, waxing or shaving the underneath bit makes a big difference, particularly to oral. Surely if such hair removal heightens my sexual enjoyment it is something to embrace?

SomethingOnce Mon 17-Feb-14 15:07:50

Nobody has said that it isn't, or that you shouldn't.

Showy Mon 17-Feb-14 15:36:45

Zigglett, please don't swear at me. Somewhere a dog sleeps is dirt-ridden. What I'm trying to highlight (as I have repeated time and again) is that the language we use to talk about pubic grooming seeps into the consciousness. There's a particular obsession with cleanliness and when you compare it to the bit of carpet a dog sleeps on, you feed into that. I'm not twisting your words, I'm trying to show you how something natural can be described in such a way for it become something disgusting. Licking the floor where a dog sleeps IS unhygienic. Performing an oral act on a woman who hasn't removed pubic hair IS NOT. And what you've actually done is dismiss other people's choices. Denigrating their choices does not advance your own. I am sorry if you thought I was putting words in your mouth. I had no intention of doing that. Everybody should do what they want to do. You can't accuse people of not respecting your choice and in the same breath, criticise theirs.

Tea1Sugar Mon 17-Feb-14 15:43:38

Mumsnet never ceases to amaze me. Some people need to calm the hell down. We are talking about PUBES ffs!!

Showy Mon 17-Feb-14 15:49:39

I don't think anybody isn't calm tbh. People are having a discussion, not running round screaming.

SomethingOnce Mon 17-Feb-14 15:53:23

Mumsnet never ceases to enlighten me.

Showy Mon 17-Feb-14 15:59:55

Tea1Sugar, can I just apologise if you feel got at? You are very pregnant and don't deserve to feel that way. Does it help to know that people on here- including me -are at worst trying to stress that you shouldn't even give the notion of 'poor dh' headspace? You're doing a marvellous, wonderful thing and I bet he thinks you are pretty smashing right now. He's also right. Is it better if we phrase it in those terms?

Trying and failing to get access to your nethers in late pregnancy is like a lesson in how an upended turtle feels. I was given a bic razor before the spinal for my emcs and told to remove any hair above a certain point. May as well have asked me to cartwheel into the operating theatre.

SaucyJack Mon 17-Feb-14 16:07:29

Is it better if we phrase it in those terms?

What would've been better is if you left well alone in the first place, instead of spoiling the OP's thread for your own intellectual masturbation...........

ziggletttwiglett Mon 17-Feb-14 16:07:56

Actually im not you are. I was simply describing it as hairy. Say what you will you have twisted my words. I dont believe at all that performing oral on an unshaven vagina is dirty and i havent insinuated that either.

That is what you and I suspect others are choosing to read.
Clearly I can not get my point across without people "taking it for the worst" rather than simply reading all of my comments you have focused on areas where you will find fault even though as I have already pointed out was not offencely written in any way shape or form and simply my creative way of describing an act. Which if you had focused more on my efforts to let people be themselves then we wouldn't be having this disagreement I'm sure. As I think said by us both we clearly have similar views that people are individuals and should be allowed to be so.

I think ive had enough of this now anyway I'm sure many will agree with me and many won't.

I have to say though that after my many attempts to reaasure you about the carpet comment you still choose to disbelieve me and bash me for "saying hairy women are dirty" which I have NEVER said and I will try one last time to get that point across. I said

dog sleeps on carpet - in my experience this is the hariest part of my carpet and with my experience of pubic hair getting stuck in horrible places in my mouth Iwould imagine this is what it would be like.

I did not say:
dog sleeps on carpet - in my experience this is the dirtiest girmiest part of my carpet so I would imagine that an unshaved vagina would be just as unsanitary. .

And I actually belive that pubic hair is there to keep you cleaner internally anyway but the is no getting away from the fact (not that ive mentioned it previously) that hair does give something for "bits" to stick to such as faeces discharge etc. Although (now make sure you read this) I dont believe that being hairy makes you dirty/dirtier on a normal hygienic person...

ziggletttwiglett Mon 17-Feb-14 16:17:52

And showy just one last thing... why is this terms in which we speak of our bits and cleanliness a big deal.to you? The op never mentioned anything about being unclean.. and I dont think many do.

Vaginas smell thats life
Bottom holes smell thats life

In a very close space to your vagina you wee and poo and bleed and have disharge and sperm ive never worried about being unclean and no one in my life ever has insinuated that you are dirtier for not shaving..

so arguments/discussion asside where have you got this idea/notion? I am genuinely intrigued/interested. Not belittling you. I really want to know.

TeaAndANatter Tue 18-Feb-14 15:06:04

Hi Tea, I remember you from another thread we used to be on - If I remember rightly, we're due about 1 day apart? Hope pregnancy is going well - mine's less anxious than it was at the start after my MMC.

ME: Radical feminist, non-waxer, pro-personal-choice, but highly anti-social pressure put on women to wax, but considering it as a one-off prior to this birth as my lochia the last two times was narsty, and I'd like to not be wiping as many chunks out of my poor bush. So, on the whole, it kills me to even consider this (because for me, my bush IS political as well as personal), but I may visit the emporium of pain and hot wax just this once.

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