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Glass of wine on Chrismas day.(338 Posts)
Hi, I'm going to be 12+5 on Christmas day and i am absolutely GAGGING for a glass of red. Is that really bad cause I'm not quite out of the first trimester??
I did! in fact I had 2. It's totally up to you.
I would and did.
I plan to. Maybe half a glass (I will be 12+4)
I will be! Before I discovered I was unexpectedly pregnant I consumed many glasses of wine in Paris - was horrified by what I'd done! 21 weeks now and the baby is fine. Go for it, as my midwife said to me today: "Your baby won't develop foetal alcohol symdrome after a few glasses of wine".
A tradition in our house is to have a glass of bucks fizz or babycham on christmas eve before bed - ds too. I'll still stick to it this year as well. There's probably more alcohol in the red wine gravy!
There's nothing to suggest the odd glass would be a problem
But are you sure you'll stick at one or two small ones?
100% sure AuntieStella. I would savor every last drop! Thanks for the advise everyone... more please!
I will be sticking to the old advice of 1-2 units once or twice a week over Christmas.
I will certainly have a glass or two. I've been looking forward to it for ages.
And how many weeks are you EeyoreIsh?
I'm not a huge wine drinker so don't miss it, but my partner's father makes his own fruit liqueurs and I'll certainly be sampling a small glass this Christmas!
I'm 33 weeks. I've had hardly any alcohol this pregnancy, and feel by this stage a glass will do no harm.
I will also be 12+5 and I intend to have a half of Guinness. Go for it!
Yeah I will be indulging, only a couple over the two days I expect.
I used to be a definite no on the drinking but getting through the first 18 weeks without a drink along with being all pious about it wore pretty thin pretty quick so now I have one or two a week! I've learned very quickly since being pregnant that it's all very well being judgey until it's happened to you!
Msvee - chance of what?
If I were over 12 weeks I'd probably treat myself to a little glass on Xmas day - or at least certainly wouldn't judge anyone who did.
I'll only be 9 weeks and a bit so will abstain (or take a cheeky sip from DH's glass, just for the taste). I've bought some 'quality' low/no alcohol wine - will probably still taste nothing like real wine but drinking something vaguely wine-y from a wine glass will help me feel less left out I think.
Enjoy it. Make sure it's a nice drop though as you'll probably only have about 100mls. I found only the good stuff tasted nice when pregnant. Everything else tasted like vinegar.
This stuff is yummy too.
I'll be having a half glass of white topped up with water.. why not.
There's no diff between 12.5 and 13, really.
Just dont have it on an empty stomach!
I would / will if my baby isn't out by then!
Have one and enjoy.
Ive had a single glass on special occasions (a couple of parties & a wedding) and really savoured them, but I've discovered I can't drink white wine anymore, it has a horrible achey effect on me... I'm fine with rose!
I will be. Agree with Oscar - the odd glass I have had so far has been a nice small glass of good quality wine that I have enjoyed through a meal.
Totally understand those who abstain, but I am 14 weeks and have have been having a small glass on the odd occasion so far
don't even speak to me about my weekend before I found out I was pregnant Advice from my GP and midwife that it was fine, but I know others who have had advice the other way. It's what ever YOU feel comfortable with.
The only rule I have is that it has to be a small glass, and I will only ever drink a glass when I am eating food as well (for no particular reason apart from that its more enjoyable for me that way with the food/wine pairing!)
I would but my family would get all horrified with me and I can't be arsed causing a fuss.
That was the one thing that my midwife really drove home Mitchell- that 1 glass a week is fine but only provided that you have food in your belly already.. so dont start it until mid way through your main course for eg.. and accompany it with plenty of water too
I had a particularly hard session on the booze about a week before finding out- blackout territory, 'dont remember getting home' kind of night. But sure i'm sure a LOT of women say the same and go on to have perfect babas! There's absolutely nothing i can do about it now anyway!
I won't be bothering. I didn't drink at all when pregnant with DD either.
But it's not some moral thing. I just know that one glass will sadden me more than satisfy me. It'll make me miss good wine. And a proper ice cold martini. And a glass of really good bourbon.
I'm 37 weeks & haven't touched a drop since finding out i'm pregnant.
I'm sure one sneaky one would be fine op, i miss my wine but going to abstain from it as i will be breastfeeding so best get used to having no alcohol now! Might have just one glass of Asti spritzed with lemonade though, for celebrations sake.
Just the odd one here and there will probably do no harm. It's the consistently heavy drinkers who will have a problem.
Though, for situations where Schloer or any other sweet sticky substance just won't work, Waitrose and Co-Op sell a reasonable substitute for red. Can't think what it's called and can't do links on my phone anyway, but I'm sure if you do a search for alcohol-free wine on either website you'll find it.
You do understand, though, when I say 'reasonable', I mean 'make sure you don't have it straight after the real thing and so have nothing immediately to compare it to...'
I never knew that about having food first. I'll try to stick to that!
FAS is caused by the mother drinking multiple units of alcohol on a very regular basis. A glass of wine won't hurt.
I'll be 6+0 so maybe I shouldn't have any! Not really missing alcohol yet though.
I'll be 16 weeks exactly and my family normally have champagne in so I won't be missing out on that! I barely drink otherwise - yesterday I had my first glass of wine in weeks - so I can't imagine one or two glasses will do any harm.
I will be 11+4 and I will absolutely be having a small glass with my turkey!
There is absolutely no harm in the odd glass of wine - in fact my GP recommended a small glass of red a week it with this pregnancy for the sake of feeling 'normal'. It is much mooted that the NHS say no alcohol because people don't understand units etc. and this is therefore a catch all. If it was a real problem half of Europe would be in trouble - I have French and Italian friends who think it's bizarre that so many Brits (and the Americans) think we have to abstain completely.
Each to their own but I think saying things like 'why risk it?' is scaremongering and frankly there's enough to fret about over the 40 odd weeks!!
For those looking this dealcoholised wine is quite nice but drink it ice cold.
Oh and for the festive season Bottle Green Spiced Berry Cordial can just about work as a substitute for mulled wine!
I'll be 7+3 on Christmas Day so I plan to abstain. I also plan to completely abstain throughout the pregnancy. I'm not a big drinker so I'm hoping it won't be too difficult.
But then I'm obsessed with sticking to rules
My brother normally buys champagne for Christmas day so I've decided I'll have a small glass of that. I'll be 20 weeks then and haven't had anything so far.
The advice about drinking with/after food, slowly and spacing with water makes lots of sense and would definitely be how I plan to drink once I get out of tri 1.
Also although not planning to drink at Xmas am planning to be relatively lenient when it comes to food with alcohol in - eg will still have a small portion of booze laced Xmas pudding!
What on earth makes you think 1 glass of wine is harmful?
I should think I drank 30 or more glasses of wine in the course of each of my two pregnancies. It was never suggested to me that this could be a problem in any way. This was in 2000 and 2003, by the way, not the dark ages!
I was pregnant last Christmas and had a glass of wine on Christmas Day and a glass of champagne on NYE. Dd is fine and I really enjoyed them!
Go for it.
However be warned, I had my 12 week scan on my birthday and decided to celebrate with a small glass of red with dinner... I was really excited but then I couldn't drink it . It made me feel sick. And I love wine normally.
DD2 was planned so I had been not drinking very much, but I was off my face when I got pregnant with DD1, that's how it happened as I threw up the pill the next day!
I had two glasses of wine a week or equivalent (if I fancied it) throughout both pregnancies (last one 2008/9) and probably two glasses of champagne on Christmas Day.
I also often had a glass of wine while doing the bedtime breast feed.
In spite of the "rules" changing recently if I were pregnant now I wouldn't do anything different.
I'll be 12 weeks exactly and I'm really looking forward to a glass of Bucks fizz. Family tradition before the meal.
I might even have a half a lager shandy with my meal. I'm not a wine drinker.
Go for it OP.
I didn't even know I was pregnant until I was 10 weeks and was drinking normally (for me - 2-3 glasses a night) until then.
Really, what harm do you think one glass of wine is going to do to you? .
My MIL was a midwife in the 60s and it was quite the norm to drink spirits and smoke throughout your pregnancy in those days - she had two strapping children.
I also had a glass of wine most evenings when breast feeding. I do think there is a tendancy towards absolute hysteria if a pregnant woman dares to have a drink or two
especially on mumsnet.
I find the subject of alcohol in pregnancy quite strange. I very rarely ever drink so I don't when im pregnant. I was 23 weeks on my 40th birthday. I didn't drink.
Last Christmas we were on 2 week wait & I got a bfp on 30/12 but sadly had a mmc in the February.
Its about being sensible. Do people really drink alot when not pregnant?
Yup, do it! I was about 37 weeks on Christmas day with my dd and I had a bucks fizz with dinner (few shocked faces but I was quite forceful in my conviction that I was having one and it'd be fine so there! ) this year I'm hoping to have had the baby already by the big day but if not, I'll certainly be having a glass of something. Haven't had any other alcohol.
Agree Ragwort. Although obviously I don't condone smoking at all in pregnancy (my mum smoked 20 a day in 1962 and I was born weighing a magnificent 5lb 12oz full term ) but the giving up of alcohol altogether is very recent and completely made up.
I'll be having a couple of glasses, but I'll be 38 weeks, so there's a chance baby might even had made an appearance by then anyway! I've had 1 or 2 small glasses of wine from about 20wks onwards, only when I've fancied it and mainly with food, socialising or to relax. It's a personal choice - this is my first pregnancy and all my friends enjoyed the odd glass throughout pregnancy, so there's not much 'judgement' in our circle. Plus, I used to drink at least a glass or two each night before getting pregnant, so it's something I was quite used to. I also read a few studies at the start of my pregnancy so I could make an informed decision. For me, it's about guilt - if you feel so guilty and think 'what if?' then why bother - as this totally defeats the object of having the odd glass for enjoyment/relaxation. I certainly wouldn't judge anyone for drinking or for abstaining - each to their own! Enjoy and Merry Xmas :-)
I drank occasionally throughout both pregnancies and more frequently, although obviously not masses, whilst bf. Not because I couldn't go without a drink, more because I didn't stress myself out worrying about what I should or shouldn't have, and I wasn't bothered what anyone thought.
Obviously the NHS/WHO can't advise a safe amount as that would involve a study with pregnant women drinking various amounts and possibly harming an unborn child. I would always say be sensible and everything in moderation is a good rule for life!
I thought I was missing a glass of wine when I was pregnant with Ds so decided to have one glass of champagne on Christmas Day (I'd have been about halfway through preg by then) but I only managed a couple of sips and it tasted really odd, very metallic and wrong! So I didn't bother for the rest of the pregnancy. In fact it was several months after Ds was born before any alcohol smelt or tasted the same again to me so I just didn't drink for about 2 years!
I make up for it now, like
I will be 14+6 on Christmas day and won't be having any. I'm also planning not to drink through the rest of my pregnancy. I realise small amount of alcohol every now and then is unlikely to do any harm but I just don't like the idea of my baby getting tipsy with me :-)
I won't, but I'm the first first trimester. For me it's just not worth the risk.
Do people really drink alot when not pregnant?
errrrrrrr yes, that is why it is really quite normal and easy to pick up a few bottles of wine with your grocery shopping every week. It's no longer the prohibition era you know, you don't have to go cloak and dagger to an off-licence in the dead of night to buy alcohol .
Only on Mumsnet do people see having a glass or two of wine with their evening meal as something outrageous .
I had half a glass at my brother's wedding- I was about 6 weeks at the time...I told my midwife when she asked if I'd been drinking and she wasn't too pleased. I have read that one or two units, once or twice a week is fine...They certainly subscribe to this theory in France...
I shall be having half a glass of red wine with Christmas lunch and half a glass again with the cheese board in the evening (although no funny cheeses as I don't like much except cheddar!)
No problem. I'll be 19+2
I had literally 2 cms of wine in a wine glass at a party the other week and savoured it for about an HOUR. Sometimes I just picked up the glass and sniffed it! I love wine for the taste, not getting drunk, so I am thrilled with a tiny bit now I'm pregnant and can easily stop at that because I've satisfied the craving!
There is no evidence that drinking alcohol is 'fine'. But there is evidence to say it can cause harm.
I think you just have to do what you feel comfortable with in pregnancy. You are the one who has to deal with any potential consequences.
I plan on having a glass of red with food. Although after not having alcohol for so many months i think it will make me rather tipsy very quickly! So will be going gently.
There is evidence it causes harm in large amounts. That is not the same as evidence that a small glass now and then causes harm.
There are plenty of things that 'might' cause harm that we go around doing with gay abandon. Cleaning our homes, lathering up with any number of cosmetics and toiletries, breathing in the fumes on the tube, eating X, Y and Z.
I fully support anyone's right to decide whether to drink moderate amounts or nothing during pregnancy, but the idea that this is some sort of special category where you must assume harm until proved otherwise makes no sense to me.
The amount of alcohol that needs to be consumed to cause FAS is known to be excessive. Absolutely not what is being discussed here. The very small amounts talked about on this thread may in fact be a good thing (per UCL study circa 2008 if I remember my developmental psychology correctly - will try and find link when have more time).
Penguins is absolutely right. In fact I've seen one article that looks at pregnancy risk and notes that we are more likely to harm a baby walking down the stairs due to risk of falling (when sober I hasten to add!!).
Of course a personal decision and frankly for first 20 odd weeks I just didn't want a drink. But to imply a small glass of wine, even on a regular basis, may cause harm (and we are in real terms taking FAS here) is simply inaccurate.
OK, but what about the fact that unborn baby's liver is not fully developed until shortly before birth and as such can't process alcohol effectively? Consequently, when we drink while pregnant, even 1-2 glasses only, we may be just merry but the baby may be pretty pissed (they are tiny after all). It's impossible to tell how they feel in that state. Just happy? Can they get headaches/hangovers?
Please, don't take this the wrong way, I'm not judging anybody who has decided to drink (even though I've made a different decision). I'm just wondering how it all works.
And I'll surely be having
a few vodka shot s once the baby is out!
I love/hate how divisive this topic is!
People choosing to drink while pregnant are vilified almost as those who opt for elective sections.
I have a heap of friends who wont drink a glass of wine a month, but yet have a can of Diet Coke (aspartame!!) a day and many a bag of skittles or opal fruits or whatever a week. IN my mind, this infinitely worse to be honest.
Yup, I'd see Diet Coke as worse too Chica. I don't think it's great at the best of times.
It really is- it's total poison and people are blind to it! I was partial to a can of it when hungover, thankfully i haven't had a single can of it since getting the BFP (helps that i havent been hungover obviously!!). i will happily have a glass of the grape on xmas day though let me tell you! Only the 1 though Ihave a wedding on dec 30th, i'll probably have a glass then too!
By this measure I must be the worst potential mother ever. I'm 10 weeks, have a glass of wine about once a week or so and am having an ELCS. An embryo can't get drunk on a single glass of wine. It's good to be cautious but at the same time, twenty years ago, nobody stopped drinking when they got pregnant. Everything in moderation has always seemed like a good idea to me with most things in life (except cheese which I struggle to put down).
One thing though - aspartame? This has to be the world's oldest internet hoax.
Lucy- I didnt find out that I was PG with DD until 24 weeks.
I had drank every weekend up until that point (approx 6/8 units of alcohol every weekend)
I say that a glass or two of wine on Xmas day is ok and not going to hurt anybody.
Home - I don't really mean the hysterical internet hoaxes. I am generally not keen on artificial sweeteners at all, particularly in drinks, not least because what they may do to 'prime' our body for sugar and disrupt the natural response when it isn't forthcoming. I try and avoid them generally (particularly hard in yoghurts I find) whether or not I am pregnant.
However, I ignore almost all the rules on food during pregnancy and have the odd drink. I'm planning a second home birth though - I wonder if that cancels it out at all in the 'worst potential mother' stakes
Penguins I see your point - we don't eat processed food (though more on taste grounds and because we like to cook than anything else) so it's a bit much for me to do any eye-rolling Yoghurts - I find a low fat natural yog mixed with some bluebs generally fits the bill?
As long as you're not filling the birthing pool with gin Penguin
Go for it! I will be having a glass of red and I'll enjoy every drop. I'll be 24 weeks.
The holier than thou attitude of some mumsnetters is as predictable as it is boring. I wonder if they ever consume any fried food, processed food, chocolate or caffeine. And I assume they're all a perfectly healthy weight too as being overweight is proven to be a risk factor...
I'm the same with yoghurt Home. In fact ate a Muller Light at my mum's house recently and it genuinely tasted of vomited as I'm so used the avoiding the sweeteners/processed stuff (not related to pregnancy just how DH and I prefer to eat).
Artificial sweeteners and their harmful effects are far from 'hoaxes' home i assure you- i'm a qualified nutritionist (although not by profession i will admit!) and while there is certainly an element of sensationalism about aspartame online, it's harmful effects cannot be denied. Another vote for non processed foods here anyway.
I still maintain that one glass of wine a week is less harmful to baby than a can of diet coke a day- but the thing is, you have to make up your own mind and live by your own choices, whatever they may be. I really believe a mother has her own inbuilt gut instinct on these things also!
I mostly eat full fat plain yoghurt with fruit. Sometimes I have the Yeo Valley full fat ones when I don't want prep.
Miracle - with our dodgy water pressure, we may well be looking for other sources of liquid at the last minute
There is absolutely nothing wrong with alcohol in small amounts during pregnancy, and I am getting soooo annoyed with all the "mummy to be" status updates on facebook saying they wish they could have a glass of bubbly over Christmas! You can!!
Exactly the same re Yeo valley ones - have you tried the honey one. Lovely.
In the past 4 days i've had half a Camembert, raw beef and a few massive gins. Really thought I wasn't pregnant this month till I took a test last night. oops!!
I just had a look at all the things we're not supposed to have I think i'll struggle to remember all that!
Just as an aside, for anyone wanting a beer; I found Becks Blue tasted just like Becks. Perfect for a curry; I found other non alcoholic brands of beer tasted really malty and sicky. If a beverage can taste like sick...
But anyway, hopes this helps someone who misses a good curry and a beer
The honey one is lush Miracle
Harmless! Give yourself a break, OP x
April the same happened to me- the nite before i did the test i was at a 'beef club' quarterly outing- had carpaccio and some other form of raw beef, as well as a rare rib eye and 5 glasses of malbec. oooops! oh and there was indeed a cheese board for dessert too.. i should have known better given we were TTC but it seems to have done no harm anyway..
Chiming in just to relate a possibly apocryphal story passed on to me by DH. Apparently, a pg expat woman in France asked her midwife about abstaining from alcohol. The midwife replied' No, no. No alcohol. Just the wine with dinner and the cognac after'
But ultimately OP, one glass of wine on Christmas Day should be fine.
The advice is there to protect the NHS. They're safer if they just say 'no alcohol'.
Ikea sell a really nice alcohol free mulled wine and Bavaria make a 0% blonde beer (labelled 'Wit') that's sold in my local Tesco. I've also found if you mix a splash of bitter lemon with it it tastes just like Hoegaarden.
Not that I really miss booze or anything.
Wow, i think i must have been french in a former life terraria..that's funny. The french have a much better attitude to booze though in general, they tend to consume it with food in the main, wine in particular. They're not really ones for binge drinking the way we do, so can probably maintain their usual quote throughout their pregnancies without guilt!
Inglorious, you've done your research, well done, i like it! I did try the Torres natureo (spanish) non alcoholic wine, jesus it was RANK!! Although for anyone that actually likes sweet white wine, it's fine. I like my wines v dry so just couldnt stomach it at all.
But why bother? Get some fake wine maybe ? I know loads
Of people who go ahead and do it and it's been fine. But I personally just can't understand the point - My
Midwife said to me it's like mixing some wine into a babies bottle and none if us would do that. I'm trying for a baby and would give anything to not be able to drink on christmas :-) Just be thankful for having a healthy pregnancy and don't increase any risks - you can drink in 6 months, it'll fly!! X
Why bother Parenthood? let me count the ways..
- Because it's relaxing
- Because we deserve it
- Because it's christmas
- Because we like it
- Because it makes us feel normal
Best of luck to you by the way, hope you get your BFP soon.
People choosing to drink while pregnant are vilified almost as those who opt for elective sections - Bingo, I must be the worst mother on here, & I drank when breast feeding .
I wonder what is considered better (in Mumsnet terms) - to breast feed and have a small glass of wine occasionally or to use formula .
My Midwife said to me it's like mixing some wine into a babies bottle
You need to find a midwife who doesn't spout total crap, tbh.
I did! Infact i took my "wine allowance" which was like once glass and stretched it into two by diluting it with some lemonade. I savoured every bit! DS was a healthy 8lbs 6 oz! Enjoy!
Agreed Tricycletops, I couldnt be in the same room as a midwife that preachy and self righteous!! All the ones i've met so far have been very cool thankfully.
i remember my aunt saying that one time (back in the 70s) she drank while breastfeeding to knock the baby (my cousin, obviosuly !) out.. haha wonder what said midwife would say about that!
I drank while I was pregnant, and while I was breastfeeding. Not loads but a glass when I fancied it.
The hysteria is ridiculous.
Ragwort the midwife at our hospital told me that she would rather see a new mother breastfeed her baby and enjoy a glass of wine every evening than use formula, because of the risks associated with not breastfeeding.
I took her advice very literally
Parenthood if you are used to drinking good wine, then all the low/no alcohol things taste vile.
I worried about everything with DD1. I was a lot more relaxed with DD2, had a sniff and a sip of wine if I was out with DH. Allowed myself one glass of really good wine at Xmas. It was great. DD2 is so much more chilled out than DD1, I'm sure it's partly to do with how relaxed/stressed I was during pregnancy.
Chocolate there is no alcohol for the baby to process. The amount that makes it into the mother's blood is very small, and then the placenta is in the way before it gets to the baby.
It is not like you have an IV of gin directly into the amniotic fluid
Am that any HCP would compare having a glass of wine with putting alcohol into a baby's bottle. That is demonstrating a complete lack of understanding of fairly basic human biology. Wow.
I get hayfever so was apparently not supposed to eat peanuts when pregnant as there is a greater risk of peanut allergy in the child
I'm afraid I couldn't resist the odd Snickers bar...
Neither child has shown any particular allergies, or nothing that has been more than a very minor skin sensitivity. In fact DD1 is 8 and I'd already started to have hayfever at age 7.
The midwife told me that they've back peddled on the 'peanuts give nut allergy' theory now Katnip.. a few yrs ago i think?
I think in general, 'a little of what you fancy' and 'all things in moderation' should be the approach.. friend of mine who's also prego is driving me crazy saying 'paleo diet is best during pregnancy' at the moment.. whatevs, i'm enjoy the odd bit of bread and pasta!
I really fancy some sparkling wine or prosecco on Chritmas day, I am 14 wks 5days now after 3 miscarriages so I am being so very careful with everything.
I'm thinking of having between 2 sips and half a glass of sparkling wine if its a low alcohol strength during Xmas dinner with the family.
I can see my 20 year old sister telling me off though, as she will say I'm a bad mother probably.
I don't know if it's worth the guilt.
I will try a sip and see if I still like the taste.
I've gone off coffee and spicy food and I am often nauseas at random times.
I might not even like it now I'm pregnant.
I will be 15 wks and 6 days Xmas day!
I went skiing in January 2010... Drank loads of wine everyday.. Shots, smoked a couple of cigarettes even..
On the last night we drank a bottle of Jaegermeister between 5 of us
I fell spectacularly down a red run and several other times too... I went tobogganing and mine flipped. (Very steep!!)
I got home and discovered I was pregnant. She is 3 now and so so clever with advanced speech and knows the alphabet, counting to 40 and every word of 'Somewhere only we know'
A glass or 2 won't hurt!
Even the NHS, with its very black and white message on drinking in pregnancy (since they changed it!) is ok with moderate drinking during breastfeeding! NHS stuff here.
I also found that, after the first few months, both DD's did their best stretch of sleep at the start of the evening. So after a final feed at, say, 8, I knew it was unlikely they'd want feeding again before 11 and that was the perfect time to relax with a glass of wine if I wanted one.
I told my current midwife that I was drinking a small glass of wine (and clarified that I understood that meant 125ml or less) a couple of times a month. She smiled, said that was fine, and promptly ticked the box on her form that said I wasn't consuming any alcohol. I got the impression she was avoiding the obligation to give me a lecture she didn't think I needed!
The 'why take the risk' attitude when expressed towards other people (perfectly ok when applied to yourself) gives me the absolute rage. Because we are adult human beings. As someone who will have three kids and who has extended breastfed the first two (and plan to the third), I have been under these rules constantly since summer 2008 and will likely continue to be until about 2015 or 2016. Thats 7-8 years. I want to live my life as an adult, making adult choices about the things I enjoy, whether that be drinking a glass of wine, fell walking, dyeing my hair, eating parma ham, etc, etc, etc. I am very happy to modify my behaviour if there is evidence that a behaviour is risky. I'm not prepared to modify it because some people have formed a moral judgement that certain behaviours fall into a category of 'must be proved safe' before I am allowed them, not that I should cease if they are proved harmful.
ooh i will be having one or 2 small glasses, have had the odd glass with a meal out since i was 12 weeks.
i will be 23+4 on christmas day
i do miss getting pissed though
No chocolate, it doesn't work like that.
For those who are saying 'why take the risk', why do you think it's a risk when actually, the evidence shows that it isn't? Why do you not apply this to other things we have no evidence are risky in pregnancy?
according to the NHS www.nhs.uk/chq/Pages/917.aspx?CategoryID=54#close you cant have:
raw / underdone eggs
rare / underdone meat soo:
smoked meat / fish
any fish that might have high levels of mercury
raw fish, so sushi or sashimi
more than a tiny bit of caffeine
any unwashed fruit or veggie
... have to admit I get to the point of saying something crude and working on the principle of 'moderation in all'
Considering that the 2 pregnant doctors I've been out with tonight both had a glass of prosecco with dinner, you have nothing to worry about!
I've had 1 small glass every couple of weeks and its just lovely
I'm just over 25 weeks and have drunk pretty steadily throughout this pregnancy (glass or two of red, once, twice a week or so, sometimes a little more, sometimes a little less) at the direct instruction of my OBGYN. I have monthly scans (healthcare here, not in UK) and all of which have shown my son growing at a wonderful rate, completely healthy and thriving.
I have absolutely no bother whether someone wants to drink during pregnancy or not, completely and utterly up to them, but it's the "why risk it?" posters that really fecking annoy me! Why risk what??? I walk up 6 flights of stairs of a really tall building, 8 times a day at least. Am I not risking my unborn child's safety more with the likelihood that I'll trip and fall?
Aside from the fact that as a completely healthy women non-dependent on alcohol with a completely healthy liver function, the fact that the "alcohol" doesn't even reach the baby given that my liver does it's very good job of processing it before it reaches the placenta. The reason FAS is more prevalent in much heavier drinkers is because their liver is already functioning poorly due to the amount of alcohol it's having to process on a very regular basis and this means the alcohol will more than likely cross the placenta and affect the unborn baby. Completely healthy non-alcoholic women can more than handle an alcoholic drink or two, should they wish, and go on to given birth to completely healthy babies. At what point did we lose reason on this subject?
Why is it only alcohol that people like to attempt to guilt trip you over? Jaysus, like all pregnant women lose the ability to make informed decisions the milisecond that the sperm meets the egg.
OP you go right ahead and enjoy that glass of bubbly on Christmas day as so many reasoned posters on this thread have recommended! Plenty of us will be!
er...did you actually read the link? Stilton, sushi and cold meats are all considered safe to eat under FSA / NHS guidelines.
Back on topic.
The new 'no alcohol' guidelines is for public health. If you tell everyone it's fine to have a 'small amount' of alcohol in pregnancy then a % of them are going to drink to the extent that it damages their baby . If you say 'no alcohol' then a much smaller % will drink too much.
I once read about a mum whose baby was born with FSA who complained she 'only' drank 2 glasses of wine a night - they were large glasses and she was probably drinking about 45 units a week! Some people's idea of 'small amounts'
especially the British is not small at all.
Same with weaning. Not much evidence for 6 months but plenty for not giving solids before 4 months - the 6 months guideline simply means that fewer people start giving baby rice at 8 weeks. Not an honest way to manage public health but
some people are thick an evidence based one.
hrm, i must have misread then. Thanks tondelaya
I will say though that a 'not honest' way of managing public health actually tends to create mistrust and a rather dismissive attitude to guidelines among people. It may work in the short term while people still believe in the guidelines but in the longer term - well, people get to know.
I think an honest approach is better. It will lead to some people getting it wrong yes. But it does too, if you can't trust the official guidelines. It's also treating us much more like responsible adults which again in the longer term is better than making us into kiddies who havbe to be fed half-truths or untruths.
PS actually I live in a country where you get glared at and people make comments I consider rude, if you do eat sushi which is why I overlooked the link about the NHS considering it safe. And it's amazing how free people feel to tell you that you're an irresponsible mother and an alcoholic if you have one sip of wine or even sniff the glass. Im not joking.
Would you give your baby a glass of wine? Just saying!
Someone didn't concentrate in biology did they?
what's giving a baby a glass of wine got to do with you having one at christmas?
To quote strokethefurrywall
Aside from the fact that as a completely healthy women non-dependent on alcohol with a completely healthy liver function, the fact that the "alcohol" doesn't even reach the baby given that my liver does it's very good job of processing it before it reaches the placenta. The reason FAS is more prevalent in much heavier drinkers is because their liver is already functioning poorly due to the amount of alcohol it's having to process on a very regular basis and this means the alcohol will more than likely cross the placenta and affect the unborn baby. Completely healthy non-alcoholic women can more than handle an alcoholic drink or two, should they wish, and go on to given birth to completely healthy babies. At what point did we lose reason on this subject?
Now as it happens, for me personally I am not fully healthy so I have at the very most a sip - i think 3 sips in 21 weeks - and we're having non-alcoholic sparkly on xmas day.
But comments like 'would you give your baby a glass of wine" have nothing to do with the discussion, which is about YOU having a glass. The implicatoin that by you having a glass, your baby is, is based in ignorance and alarmism.
No, I wouldn't give a baby a whole grape either but didn't see that as a reason not to eat them during pregnancy. Actually I wouldn't give anything other than formula or breastmilk to a baby under 6 months but again, didn't feel it necessary to consume only those myself during pregnancy.
Tondelayo the problem with the public health argument, aside from the fact that I'm a grown woman and deserve not to be lied to, is that quite a lot of people realise that the alcohol advice given by the NHS is bullshit. It does fly in the face of the actual evidence and there's no getting round that. So that undermines the message. Which matters, because there are genuinely some things that aren't safe in pregnancy but unfortunately, if you know your midwife has lied to you about alcohol, you're going to be less likely to take notice of her on other things.
You guys seem to care more about yourself relaxing and you 'deserving it ' and arent able to stop for a few months more than your babies. Dont they deserve it.
If theres no proven risk but then no proof of no risk why take any chances.
Yes its risky to walk down stairs to work but you have to work. You don't have to drink.
But your bodies your babies and if everyone you know is doing it you might as well....
I don't understand how anyone can draw a parallel between a pregnant/breastfeeding woman drinking wine and giving wine directly to a baby. By this logic, throughout pregnancy you should ONLY drink breastmilk or formula as nothing else is safe for a baby. Even water!
It infuriates me when people spout this nonsense because it demonstrates such a total lack of rational thought and really invalidates any argument against drinking in pregnancy. Everything you eat or drink is metabolized by your body - it doesn't cross the placenta in it's original form! Your liver processes the alcohol. If you drink a small amount slowly with food, your liver can keep up and metabolises it all. If you do a series of tequila slammers, the alcohol will go to the baby. If you sip a glass of wine with dinner, it won't go to the baby in any kind of significant quantity.
There is tons of evidence regarding drinking and pregnancy. A very accessible book which looks at all kinds of pregnancy advice from an evidence-based pov is Expecting Better - I would highly recommend it.
But please don't state 'I don't drink when pregnant because I wouldn't give a baby wine' unless you don't drink juice, tea, hot chocolate, water...all things that could be very harmful to a baby if you fed it to them directly!!
Watch you don't get a nose bleed from that HIGH horse you're on there Msvee
There's evidence that high-stress in preg provokes some pretty serious problems too, msvee. Though I dont think using alcohol as a stress reliever regularly is a good idea at all.
There's no proven risk with low amounts and damn, with the amount of research done - more on this subject than any other - there would be proof by now. If there is a slight risk of harm (if) then im damn sure there are other things just as risky and harmful. God, I've been told you're supposed to be careful about oven cleaner, certain sorts of paint and
People get hysterical about -a- glass every couple of weeks. There's other things to worry about more than that. Lack of appropriate exercise and making sure you have a good balanced diet for one.
I don't know what that cake thing means . Lol.
Meerka I do understand and possibly its because someone in my family has learning difficulties due to his mother drinking on the weekend. I accept that it probably had to be excessive but its made me anti any kind of drink in pregnancy so my views are based on my own experiences.
I would try and be as healthy as I could. No cappuccino for nine months never hurt nobody!
But there is such a massive difference between binge drinking every weekend and having a single glass on Christmas Day. You might as well say 'as I've given up scuba diving because it's dangerous to the baby, I won't go swimming anymore'. It's fine that you don't want to drink at all during pregnancy but to ask other women 'why take the risk?' demonstrates a real lack of understanding of the actual biological processes, much like the people equating it with feeding your baby directly from the gin bottle
ouf, yes, that would give somebody strong views sorry to hear it, msvee
Would you compare swimming with drinking then ?
I asked why take the risk because I genuinely want to know. In rl I don't know anyone apart from the person in my family who drunk when pregnant. But maybe they hide it. Who knows.
Anyway its just my opinion.
Msvee the problem with your argument, apart from the stupid assumption that everyone posting here is a)pregnant and b)drinking during pregnancy, is that you're still assuming moderate alcohol consumption is a risk even though all the evidence is that it isn't. This flies in the face of logic. Sure, there's no absolute evidence that moderate consumption is totally safe, although all the research indicating no ill effects is pretty damn good. There's also no absolute proof that eating apples during pregnancy is safe. Or anything really. So why aren't you telling us all to avoid apples too? The only possible reason is that you think any alcohol in pregnancy is dangerous despite the science, and aren't going to let a silly little thing like the evidence pointing the other way influence you.
I'm very sorry to hear there are difficulties in your family due to alcohol, there are in mine too so I know how it is. That doesn't mean we get to totally ignore scientific evidence and lecture other people based on our own preconceptions, though. Your relative's binge drinking is irrelevant to the issue of moderate consumption. We all know binging isn't healthy, even when not pregnant.
Ok chunderella isn't the point of threads like this to educate people, share experiences and knowledge?.
Yes. You're not educating people or sharing knowledge though. You're doing the precise opposite, which is peddling misinformation.
I wasn't talking about myself. I was talking about you and other posters.
Which still begs the question of why, on threads that are here to educate and share knowledge, you're instead berating posters for basing their decisions on scientific evidence instead of baseless scaremongering.
What Chunderella said. I was drawing the comparison between a risky activity (scuba diving) with a non-risky milder version of it (swimming) to parallel the risky behaviour of binge drinking with the non risky behaviour of having a single glass of wine with dinner. Asking 'why take the risk?' ignores the basic fact that having that one glass of wine is NOT a risk to the baby. It is NOT equivalent to feeding a newborn wine directly. Binge drinking is definitely a risk but it is a completely different thing to having an occasional glass - they both involve alcohol but are totally different in terms of harm to the baby. Just like scuba diving and swimming both involve water but one is very dangerous to a foetus and the other isn't.
The reason I drink, from time to time and in small amounts, during pregnancy has been explained above Msvee. I am really sorry about your family history and I could see that it would give you strong opinions. Given that, I would leave it there, but if you genuinely want to understand the other side:
I am not willing to live a significant chunk of my adult life (and, as I said, with bf-ing I'd be looking at around 7 years) where I have to avoid some things because for moral judgement reasons people have decided that they have to be proved safe before I do them, not that I will stop if they are proved risky.
Yes, you have to go to work. But you do a million things each day that you don't have to do. There are some that have known risks, but are still considered morally acceptable. Here are some examples:
- I crossed the road to buy some milk. We could have lived without it and had toast;
- I ran back up and down the stairs to fetch my wedding ring before going out. Unnecessary extra risky trip up and down the stairs at speed!
- I drove my car on a social outing. I could have stayed home.
There are also things I happily do because they are normal. On the assumptions made about alcohol, I should be waiting for a study to prove it's safe before I do any of these:
- I put on make up;
- I washed up with washing up liquid;
- I washed my face and body with various products;
- I put on deodorant
- I am sitting in a house with wifi.
But I don't, I do them, and if someone proves to me that I am risking my baby, well then I will stop. Just as I wouldn't drink a bottle of wine, because that is a risk. Just as I have stopped eating meat pate (which I love - there is a slightly more complex response on homemade vegetable or fish pate!).
It has naff all to do with relaxing, deserving it or being selfish. And everything to do with the fact that, if you are going to tell an adult to modify an otherwise perfectly health and responsible behaviour because of pregnancy or breastfeeding, you should have an actual reason greater than a moral high horse.
One glass of wine isn't going to do any harm OP. I had an occasional small glass during my last trimester, didnt fancy it before that.
Drinking a few glasses of wine a few times a week, sometimes more sometimes less is a bit much though. So is alcohol less harmful than nicotine then, or any other drug? Was pregnant a few years ago, and hcp's were dead against anything, does the current research show there is no harm?
Didn't I say on my last post that the point us to educate people. I wrote what I wrote due to my own experiences. However after receiving replies I am learning more. I am not on any high horse my post was probably emotive due to experiences and I will definitely go and read more.
msvee - The 'moral high horse' comment wasn't directed at you. It was directed at the 'why take the risk, you are being selfish' argument.
But your first post: You guys seem to care more about yourself relaxing and you 'deserving it ' and arent able to stop for a few months more than your babies. Dont they deserve it. does sound fairly judgmental, doesn't it?
Like I said Msvee, I would really recommend Expecting Better if you are interested in reading more around this topic. It's very balanced, accessible and informative.
Penguins yes it was judgemental but because someone said they drink because they deserve it but really not my business is it.
Jellyandcake will take a look at it thanks.
June nicotine is a harmful toxin that your body can't process safely in any quantity. Your liver can metabolise alcohol in moderate quantities - it's when your liver is overloaded and can't keep up with the amount of alcohol that it is harmful. So smoking is definitely more dangerous than light drinking. Other drugs carry severe risks that are definitely more harmful than a single glass of wine. Drinking heavily is obviously a different matter!
Ah right, things move on all the time with pregnancy advice don't they.
They cared less about the fags than booze when I was pregnant!
God, i'd absolutely murder a bottle of crisp, cold, dry NZ sauvingon blanc right now. While i was drinking it i'd let a gorgeous Malbec breathe, then lash into that as well. Anyone like to join me??
I MISS WINE!!!!!!!!! and i WILL HAVE SOME on xmas day!!!!!!!!!!!
My mother was pissed quite a few times with me, and i'm perfect, have a very high IQ and have cruised through life with no health issues whatsover!
Ho HO ho and merry christmas to you all
I saw a programme on TV about drinking in pregnancy and after that I really wouldn't drink. at. all. The paediatrician interviewed said the following:
Because the growing fetus cannot break down alcohol in the way an adult can, any alcohol in the fetus' system will stay there for hours and hours. This is why it is so much more dangerous for the fetus. Also a small amount of alcohol for an adult is a huge amount for a tiny fetus so what is a very moderate amount for you can still be enough to poison a fetus.
It is a known fact that drinking lots of alcohol can cause fetal alcohol syndrome, but there is some evidence that drinking more moderate amounts of alcohol in pregnancy could be causing more subtle learning difficulties in some children. He thinks that the increase in learning difficulties of the adhd type may be due to it becoming more the norm to drink wine with a meal/in an evening than it used to be 50 or so years ago.
It is also possible that different genes could cause a one fetus to be more likely to get subtle brain damage than others, so while one mother can "get away" with drinking small amounts with no effects on her child, another might not be able to.
It isn't just the first trimester where a fetus is most at risk of problems from alcohol. In fact, fetal development in the third trimester means that this is a stage where they are particularly at risk form effects of alcohol.
Yes this is still an area where research is ongoing and it is complicated because different combinations of genes mean effects are different for different babies but this is a genuine area under research where there are definite possibilities of serious problems, even if the mechanisms haven't been worked out yet. Yes it has not been totally proven but there is a possibility that small to moderate amounts of alcohol can cause significant problems , so this is whre my "why risk it" comes in. You just don't know what combination of genes your baby has and how much alcohol (if any) is "OK".
I teach students with subtle learning difficulties ( the sort where they can be quite bright. be in mainstream school, but really struggle to achieve their potential because of specific issues) and find it heartbreaking at times to see the difficulties the student experience and just wouldn't want to risk it myself! This is absolutely NOT making a moral judgement, just a very strong desire not to see children struggle with learning more than they have to!
See No alcohol no risk
Well... I graduated 3rd in my Masters class in university (as well as 2nd in my A level equivalent in the entire county of 200,000 people) and yet my mother drank regularly while pregnant with me, i've never had any subtle learning difficulties whatsoever, nor had any health problems (ever, i've never even had the flu ffs) so i really think 99% of your post is scaremongering bollox educatingari.. sorry. If you want to believe it yourself then that's fine of course, but dont make the rest of us guilty for having a glass of vino with our turkey! Ho ho ho!!
To which I would respond: something like this
Just had a look at that website. I don't have sound on my laptop right now, but what the hell has pouring a neat shot of vodka onto a hen's egg got to do with anything except dramatic scare tactics?
FAS is a dreadful, and avoidable, condition. No one is doubting that. But that isn't the same as the odd glass now and again.
"Well... I graduated 3rd in my Masters class in university (as well as 2nd in my A level equivalent in the entire county of 200,000 people) and yet my mother drank regularly while pregnant with me, i've never had any subtle learning difficulties whatsoever, nor had any health problems (ever, i've never even had the flu ffs) so i really think 99% of your post is scaremongering bollox educatingari.. "
You see this is the problem - some children with some genetic make-ups will be at lower risk of having adverse effects so any anecdotal "My mum drank and I'm OK" stories don't mean that another child won't be affected. You can of course choose to not listen to the latest investigations on this issue but it doesn't change the situation.
There is a lower risk of children being affected with low maternal intake of alcohol but it isn't risk free! Watch the link I put on my last post. especially the effect on startle reflexes of fetuses where mothers have been drinking low amounts of alcohol. This link isn't scaremongering, just giving info and where research is up to!
Of course make up your own mind but research it first, don't just go on anecdotal "I was OK" stories.
I'm not out to make anyone feel guilty or be any kind of killjoy, just trying to give real information.
If someone was on here saying they thought it was OK to smoke just a few cigs a week while pregnant because their mum had smoked when expecting them and they were OK, would I be a killjoy or trying to make them feel guilty for pointing out some research about it?
The evidence on low levels of alcohol being a problem is less clear cut than with smoking but it is still quite possible it is a problem.
Well Penguin - when you have sound watch the education for midwives video - that the thing I really was linking for people to see.
And also - I see your link and raise you this one
Again - not trying to make anyone feel guilty, just trying to provide a bit of counterbalance to the anecdotal.
I do feel strongly about this because I see the difficulties faced by children I teach. Yes it isn't clear cut, of course not all learning difficulties are caused by alcohol. It is a difficult are area to research scientifically because you can't ethically conduct controlled trials but have to rely on the mothers' self-reporting of how much alcohol they consumed. More research is obviously needed but there are genuine issues there to be considered.
I'm surprised someone with a masters does not back up their argument with research evidence!
The above poster raises an excellent point about the lack of research evidence. Clearly no pregnant woman is going to enter into a study about alcohol in pregnancy and be in the 'regular drinkers group'. That is why there is a lack of evidence surrounding this area.
Oh blimey - it was all a bit different 15 years ago!
Mabel - In the interests of scientific maybe all those MNetters who are convinced a couple of units of alcohol a week will do no harm should volunteer themselves as study candidates to those trying to research the situation!
There are plenty of large trials where pregnant women admit to being in the regular drinking group. There are plenty of people and plenty of places where light drinking in pregnancy is considered acceptable. For example, in this country women used to be advised - by doctors - to drink stout for iron. People often say that pregnant women in France drink wine without stigma or shame. There is plenty of evidence supporting the conclusion that the occasional glass of wine is not a risk.
I just don't understand why people can't just not have a drink for 9 months? Is it really so important you must have a drink because it's Christmas Day? That's pretty sad really!
Yes women did used to be recommended to drink Guinness for iron, so you have to ask yourself why this advice has changed!
Do you have links for that Jelly?
IIRC pregnant women in France tend to drink wine very watered down, not at full strength.
I think you are actually factually incorrect when you say "There is plenty of evidence supporting the conclusion that the occasional glass of wine is not a risk." Where have you seen a scientific study saying this?
Charlotte 31 I completely agree with you! I LOVE a glass of wine (or six) and drank whilst ttc as I knew it could take a while (which it did!) but as soon as I got my bfp last week I have not had a drop and won't just because it's Christmas...don't see the point?!
I completely agree with Msvee on this one.
Plus, a few Posters are saying yes but you risk your health and babies by other things such as this and that etc...
Yes of course we do - so why add something to the list??
Getting pregnant and carrying a baby is a miracle. Its amazing. and You only have to sacrifice for 9 months - I'm not judging anyone - or telling anyone not to, and I definitely don't want to argue ! - I'm just saying it completely baffles me, and I really don't understand why - I just don't think I would be able to have a glass myself without feeling overwhelming guilt so for me it just wouldn't be worth it.
I guess I'm just over-sensitive on these subjects due to too many miscarriages and would give the world for a healthy pregnancy. God forbid anything ever went wrong - like with many women, you look back on what you did and you blame yourself for everything! Even though it probably had nothing to do with it - you still blame yourself - I feel all of that outweighs 5 minutes with a glass of wine.
I don't think one small glass would actually do any harm.
It's just whether the pros outweigh the cons for you I guess.
For me the cons outweigh the pros.
Charlotte, the argument isn't that people can't go without, it's that if there is no reason not to go without then why do it? As a pp stated, there is no evidence that all sorts of things are safe e.g eating apples but no one suggests you avoid them!
Several studies are cited in the book I mentioned before (Expecting Better). That has all the proper references I'm the index but I don't have it to hand, however, the author looked at a wide range of international trials and the conclusions were compelling. The one study that showed harm to the babies in the 'moderate drinking mother' category also found that the women in this category were 48% more likely to be cocaine users as well, which obviously skewed the results!
I agree that wine in France is more likely to be 9%ish rather than 13/14% which you see a lot here. Don't know how much difference that makes when we are talking single occasional glasses though?
Parenthood, this is what upsets me - women feeling guilt and despair and examining themselves to see what they did wrong when in fact they have not engaged in risky behaviour but have been subject to scaremongering and misinformation.
Why don't they advise Guiness anymore? Drinks companies decided to put the warnings on their bottles against drinking in pregnancy to protect themselves against legal action lest someone hold them accountable for their binge drinking. It doesn't mean small amounts aren't safe
Regarding mothers drinking in France see this report:
Quote from this report:
"France, with its longstanding tradition as a wine drinking country, has led the way with an example of good practice.
Since October 2006, the French Code of Public Health requires a warning label on alcohol packaging: “Consumption
of alcoholic beverages during pregnancy even in small amounts can seriously damage the child’s health.” 37 The
warning is accompanied by an easy to grasp visual logo (see Figure 5)."
Have a small one with food and savour it.
But that warning is on alcohol here as well and clearly pregnant women do still drink. Has it actually changed behaviour in France? Is there any evidence that French children born prior to 2006 have a higher incidence of learning difficulties etc than children in teetotal countries?
I've only read the first page and the comments that stood out were - '*one glass can't hurt can it?*
And 'the midwife said a glass of wine was ok with a full belly'
Actually we don't know what harm alcohol actually does on a glass to glass basis because we can't research it, we do know regular alcohol when pregnant can chase huge problems though. Just because there isn't evidence on occasional drinking doesn't mean its ok to do it.
What may affect one baby, mightn't another. It's known that alcohol kills developing brain cells, so if anything it's worse earlier on in pregnancy.
The last update we had on alcohol and advice was - don't drink at all. Then the specialist showed us a video - a baby in utero of a mum who hadn't anything to drink, and the comparison of a baby In utero who's mum had a few glasses of wine. This baby was making jerking movements. It wasn't nice to watch.
I think the problem is NICE guidance says you can have 1-2 units a week, this leads mums to believe its ok, when in fact we don't know its ok. I tell mums at booking the only way to guarantee your baby isn't affected by alcohol is to refrain. That said, their body their choice.
well Ive got HG so I have whatever I fancy and can keep down - including tiramisu laced with marsala <sp> wine.. a few slurps of DH ice cold bottled beer.. and tonic water imagining the gin
never was a sloppy cheese/seafood eater so no skin off my nose to avoid
for Christmas I will slug a little chocolate baileys into a tiny glass, maybe a smidge of port. will be 26 weeks
My MIL was a v experienced MW and follows the everything in moderation mindset, our continental neighbours quaff far more than us and have less heart attacks.. the real dangers are the crappy diety food and fake sugar...... have never washed salad leaves or fruit in my life either.
do what you want to do, and enjoy yourselves.
See this response to "Expecting Better". This book is not without criticism
I agree with what Flat says above
I agree, no studies/books/recommendations etc are without criticism, we all just have to make the best informed decisions we can. What stood out to me from Flat's post was that the in utero video compared a foetus where the mother drank nothing to one where she drank several glasses - so presumably they couldn't show adverse effects from a mother who drank a smaller amount?
I don't want to sound like a midwife who you've all described a few pages back btw I'm all for choice, and so long as mums know the potential risks then its their choice.
Personally with my last baby I didn't drink a drop. I'd had 3 miscarriages and just didn't want to blame myself if anything went wrong, its bad enough without thinking 'could I have done something to avoid it'. I already have premature baby's so also wouldn't want to take this risk. On top of this I once looked after a baby who's mum drank a few units every day / every other day and I'll never forget the high pitched scream. It was awful. As I said before, what may affect some baby's may not others. I get that argh feeling when people say 'oh my mum drank throughout pregnancy with me, I'm ok' that's not evidence. Its anecdotal. Again, you may be ok.
My mum drank throughout all her pregnancies with us - GP told her to have Guinness to help iron stores! I blame my shortness on this but seriously, with my sister she had a placental abruption at 34/40 and pushed her out in theatre where they were just about to put her under a GA. They were both very lucky.
this report is interesting and explains why Oster's conclusions are not correct.
The criticisms of Oster's book seem to be from well reputed scientific researchers in the field.
I'm not sure your presumption is correct - if the video is the same on I saw ( ref back to advice for midwives link up page) IIRC the baby affected by the jumpy spasms was one where a mother had a couple of drinks per week. All the research agrees that the less alcohol you consume the lower the risk of adverse effects is, but no one actually knows where the cut-off "safe" limit is and from twin studies, it is likely that this "safe" limit will vary depending on the genetic make up of the fetus.
The thing I always thought was that if I drank tiny sips of one small glass of wine (no pub measures!!) with dinner, over 2+ hours, then the amount of alcohol in my bloodstream at any one time must have been tiny? I never felt remotely merry because I wasn't!
At the time the guidelines were a glass once or twice a week. To my knowledge there has been no new research since then and the advice was changed mainly on the basis that women don't understand what a unit looks like
Mabelandrose there are plenty of women who do drink moderately in pregnancy, so the idea that we couldn't have a control group for 1-2 units a week is pretty far fetched. I'd happily participate myself, if I were able to be in the same room as the stuff during pregnancy and felt like drinking.
Educatingarti was the doctor you saw Raja Mukherjee, by any chance? He's pretty good at getting himself on TV to scaremonger.
FlatAs it's quite well known that the most recent advice was not evidence based, so simply reiterating what the NHS advises women to do doesn't prove anything. The issue here is whether it is ok to ignore research you don't like when making policy, and whether women should feel obliged to follow guidance that has been written in the belief that we're all too stupid to understand what 1 unit is.
Well that criticism of the book says that heroin and coke are both better than alcohol (although not referencing quantities involved). I'd like some pretty good supporting evidence for such a statement and cannot, unfortunately, find the report they cite online.
They also say you shouldn't drink when breastfeeding, which is known to be inaccurate (small amounts, correctly timed, are no problem at all).
Having had a look through that website, it's rather patronising isn't it? Men with stuff stuffed up their jumpers 'pausing' to remind women that it's only 9 months? I think we know how long a pregnancy is. Neat vodka poured on an egg to illustrate something or other.
Chunderella. The TV programme I saw featured Mukherjee but the several links to academic/research web pages that I have posted are not his but say very similar things.
I've just had a scan of that article. They are talking about one drink per day as the low drinking. That's, what, 10 units a week minimum. I wouldn't drink every day. I am talking about maybe 4 units a month. There is a massive difference and almost all the articles on this seem to treat 'moderate' or 'low' drinking as what I'd call more like pretty heavy drinking!
when my mum was pregnant with me,her doctor advised her to cut down from smoking 10 cigs a day to 5 and when drinking, drink beer / wine instead of spirits
this was only in 1979 !!
(but i am fine so far!)
Yes Penguin but the point is ( In true QI fashion) that nobody knows where the "zero harm" point is and it is likely to be different for different fetuses.
The research on scanning fetuses was based on those only having a couple of drinks a week. The latest article I linked (ref 1 drink a day) was about the amounts producing full blown Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. That's much less than commonly assumed for full-blown FAS. More subtle effects (sometimes called Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorder) can be caused by less alcohol that that needed to produce FAS.
Obviously more research is needed and it may be proved that 4 units a month is OK for every fetus always - but this hasn't been proved yet. We know that some amounts of alcohol adversely affect some fetuses ( and some more than others) and that lesser amounts of alcohol than previously thought can still have effects so where would you draw the cut off line and on what basis?
Yes his ideas are becoming increasingly prevalent educatingarti. Still not really evidence based, though.
Very good point penguin- moderate consumption in pregnancy would be 1-2 units a week. A glass of wine a day actually isn't low drinking, even when not pregnant. An average sized one is probably 2 units, so that's 14 a week. I'm not even pregnant and that would still be quite a lot for me! For a pregnant woman, it's not moderate consumption by any stretch of the imagination. It's so important to make the distinction.
That was exactly my point earlier in the thread Arti. There are many, many things that haven't been proven to be zero harm. We don't generally work on the assumption that zero harm has to be proved. If it did, we would all give up wearing make-up, using deodorant, using toiletries, using cleaning products other than lemon juice and white vinegar...
Even that study earlier lumped together up to 6 units a week into it's sample.
The startle reflex scan research (see advice for midwives and birthpsychology.com/free-article/research-information-parents this link for summary, shows that between 1-4 units of alcohol a week does affect the nerve development of fetus. Some mothers in the study who's fetuses were affected were only drinking 1 unit a week.
Chunderella - the links I provided have a lot of evidence based research.
I'm sorry, but this is an organisation who say alcohol is worse than heroin and think a good tactic is to pose in stations with men with stuffed jumpers to remind women how selfish they are being not 'pausing' for 9 months. I don't think I'm going to spend any more time on their website.
They contain evidence based research relating to heavy consumption yes arti. They don't contain anything to support the Dr Raja view, simply rhetoric and supposition.
Flat I am very sorry to hear of your miscarriages. Fwiw, in my first pregnancy I didn't realise I was pregnant for eight weeks. In that time I had been on a night out where I drank four or five cocktails and a holiday to France where I had plenty of wine, rare steak and unpasteurized cheese. That foetus is now a healthy 3yo. In my second pregnancy, I followed all the guidelines, was a healthier weight, didn't drink - and I miscarried. Now pregnant again with another holiday-conceived baby. We all search for reasons why these sad things happen but unfortunately they sometimes just do, despite our best efforts.
Like Chunderella if and when I can stomach a sip or two of wine I don't worry about having one. I noticed a couple of posters on this thread who I have seen on the HG thread, all of us defending the occasional drink - maybe we feel strongly because for us pregnancy is a time when many of our enjoyments are curtailed! (I am much better at 22wks and able to contemplate a greater range of food and drink!)
OK Penguin - You are referring to the nofas uk site and I agree their style is not mine either but I still think they do have valuable things to say.
However do have a look at the work of Professor Peter Hepper, from Queen's University, Belfast and Director of the Wellcome Fetal Behaviour Research Unit - Summary of his "startle reflex" work on the birth psychology link above,Link to all his research references here
You could always get a non alcoholic wine, that way you get the taste without the guilt & can drink a whole bottle
"There are many, many things that haven't been proven to be zero harm. We don't generally work on the assumption that zero harm has to be proved. If it did, we would all give up wearing make-up, using deodorant, using toiletries, using cleaning products other than lemon juice and white vinegar... "
Penguin - I don't think your argument here applies in this case because you aren't comparing like with like. To make your argument, there would have to have been studies showing for example that applying make-up 5 times a day was definitely harmful to the fetus and we would be discussing whether just using it once a day ( or 4 times a week or whatever) was potentially harmful.
Right I haven't lost interest in this debate but I have to go and work!
No, that isn't my argument. I am treating drinking at genuinely moderate levels (1-2 units per week) as it's own behaviour. I don't think it's particularly relevant what drinking 10+ units a week does to deciding how to behave in relation to 1-2. We know that, for example, drinking 40 units a week would be a bad thing for a normal, healthy, adult female. We don't use that to inform women who want to drink 5-10 units how to behave.
In normal, everyday health advice, we tell women "drinking more than X is harmful" but we don't assume sensible drinking is. In pregnancy advice, we tell them "drinking Y is harmful, so assume all drinking is harmful".
So it isn't relevant to my example whether applying lots of make-up is a problem, because that isn't the analogy I am drawing.
Eh, I couldn't even manage that jelly! I tried a sip of champagne at a friend's wedding at 32 weeks, having previously had nothing after I found out was upduffed and symptoms kicked in, and it literally tasted like sick. I had to spit it back out straight away
classy. It was rather a naice affair too!
Anecdotally, quite a few women seem to go like this when they're pregnant, and in fact I felt that way until about 5 months after DD was born. just couldn't bear the stuff. The same thing happened with bacon, except I still don't really have my taste for that back whereas I do have a drink with a meal most weekends now.
yeah i've been surprised, as a big drinker ordinarily, how my 'taste' for it has effectively gone.. good work mother nature!
I'm 14 weeks and have only had half a glass of white, topped up with water- i did however enjoy it nonetheless, so i'll probably do that 4-5 times more throughout the duration of the pregnancy. No big deal surely.
When I was pregnant with DD I had a glass of champagne at every wedding we went to. Thankfully quite a few friends got married that summer...and so did Prince William, to whom I also raised a wee toast!
I had a small glass of Baileys on xmas day 2010 when I was 6 months gone. I wasn't planning on getting pissed and the glass was full of ice. If you think you can have one and not crave the bottle then go for it ;)
I had two gins last weekend and am 11 +5. The doctor said it was fine to do so. Several doctors and midwives had explained to me that the guidelines are there to stop binge drinking. The occasional glass of wine is not a problem.
My mum was told to drink Guinness every other day throughout her pregnancies with me and my two siblings. It was the government guidelines at the time. I have never been ill and were all born healthy.
I'm not sure we'd be having this debate at all if we lived in Southern Europe...one of my friends in Cyprus was told she couldn't eat salad unless it had been soaked in vinegar but could have a small glass of wine with a meal... The important thing is to be sensible and not overdo it.
And whilst I'd never ever give alcohol to a baby, didn't people used to put brandy in babies' bottles as a treatment for colic? I know we've moved on a bit since then...
Chunderella I am like that with coffee - even thinking of it makes me heave! Although I was diagnosed with HG at the start, it has become more normal morning sickness now and the severity has declined hugely, thank goodness.
I got embroiled in this thread by irritation at the parallel drawn to feeding a baby wine directly and also the ever annoying refrain of 'whycan't you just give it up for nine months?' (And what about the 14 months I spent bfing last time on top?) I think it's important that pregnant women maintain their autonomy, their right to make their own informed decisions and that they are not treated as idiots the moment they conceive. I haven't read anything on here that changes my mind on the harmlessness of the occasional glass but there has been plenty to think about.
The startle reflex scan research (see advice for midwives and birthpsychology.com/free-article/research-information-parents this link for summary.
Where is the actual study arti? This is just a press release and one of the video links doesn't work, the other is firewalled. Not that a video is a study. Also it's a study of 40 women who self-reported the amount of alcohol they drank - can't you see the problems there..?
the problem with the public health argument, aside from the fact that I'm a grown woman and deserve not to be lied to, is that quite a lot of people realise that the alcohol advice given by the NHS is bullshit.
Yes I agree - that is just the paternalistic view they have.
Spaghettinetti, remember Gripe Water? We were all given it as kids?? Well, in the 70s in Ireland we all were.. it's been banned since, quite high in alcohol apparently! 8%!! i was given it quite a bit, might explain my fondness for the grape... ha
To those suggesting alcohol free wine, have you tried the stuff? It's disgusting. I would rather drink water, juice or squash and will do so throughout my pregnancy along with a weekly/ maybe even twice weekly glass of Sancerre or a nice Muscadet when I start to feel less nauseous.
I abstained from drinking early on with my first as I didn't feel like it but got drunk before finding out (was NYE) and had on average a drink of alcohol per week from about 18 weeks. DS walking at 10 months and vocabulary very impressive at 15 months. Doctors always commented on how alert DS was when small.
I have never been a big drinker but have always enjoyed a nice glass of wine or gin and tonic/ cocktail. The NHS advice is for those who don't know when to stop.
I don't know anyone who abstained completely when preg or breastfeeding.
yes, i had it Fiveleaves, the Torres Natureo, 0.02% or something. It was gross, really really sweet. I only did it as a decoy situation at a dinner party pre breaking the news.
The study is listed on Prof Peter Hepper's list of publications. I did link it up-thread. here 3rd one down but I've a feeling you'd have to pay for access to the full article in the journal unless you are a university or other researcher etc. Hence the summary.
I agree about the self-reporting but it is impossible to do any studies under totally controlled conditions ethically if you think about it. How else would you go about doing it? Imprison pregnant women for weeks and force feed a group a certain amount of alcohol a week whilst a control group get none?
Studies of this issue in humans can never be totally controlled but it doesn't mean the study isn't valid.
Opps sorry - 4th one down on Prof Hepper's list.
Lambrusco. 4%, so an entire bottle is only 4 units. So a single glass is negligible.
My new discovery.
Ok sorry - the actual study summarised in the birthpsychology article
Is in the journal of physiology and behaviour - the other one I linked to is later research of his.
Journal and physiology of behaviour article is here but you will have to pay unless you belong to an organisation that has already paid for access.
Oh, someone upthread mentioned drinking while breastfeeding.
I haemorrhaged very very badly during birth, and my midwife and doctor both insisted on a full pint of Guinness, and instructed Dh to feed me rare steak and a glass of red for dinner every day. This was 3.5 years ago, not 30!.
I didn't drink at all through pregnancy, just didn't feel like. Don't think an occasional drink would do any harm at all. I had morning sickness to six months though so that might be why!
I personally won't drink at all while I'm pregnant BUT I rarely drink when not pregnant so i don't miss it at all. I could kill for pate tho and I mean kill.
And on Christmas I will have a icle bit.
One glass won't harm you all in moderation.
educatingarti - the 4th one down is a different study by Hepper. And a study which doesn't cover light drinking at all (as defined by the NHS as 1-2 units per week) - it has a control (0 units), moderate drinking (5-10 units) and heavy drinking (20 units+ per week).
I've now found the abstract to the one I asked about and there is absolutely nothing about volume / no of units - it just compares alcohol drinkers with non-alcohol drinkers - a completely different impression to the one given by the article - I can't read the graph at all.
So basically - unless I'm reading it wrong (possibly), we're still waiting for evidence supporting the claim that very small amounts of alcohol (less than 2 units per week) consumed in the second and third trimester do any harm.
BTW, I'm really envious of those whose bodies / hormones put them off alcohol etc in pregnancy. The only smells I could stand during the first trimester were fresh cigarette smoke, bleach & cleaning chemicals, good red wine and esprsso!
Tondo - yes I apologised for wrong link up-thread. I agree the abstract doesn't mention amounts but (at the risk of repeating myself)
If you look at the advice to midwives on this website here It interviews Prof Hepper and he talks about amounts there. (I agree the overall site is not a good style of reporting but the video gives the interview and is freely available). I'm assuming the article in birthpsychology is reasonably accurate - especially given that interview with Prof Hepper on the midwife training film is consistent with it but we need a mnetter with access to scientific journals to look at the full report and confirm or not (?anyone)
"So basically - unless I'm reading it wrong (possibly), we're still waiting for evidence supporting the claim that very small amounts of alcohol (less than 2 units per week) consumed in the second and third trimester do any harm."
I think if someone can access the full paper and confirms that the summary and video are consistent with it, we do have some evidence.
Thought you might be interested to know that I've been classed as high risk today (by consultant, previously low risk according to midwife) on the basis of one glass of wine and having smoked weed in the past (well over a year before I got pregnant) . Overkill anyone?
Really rara or are you taking the piss? That seems a bit unbelievable based on those things alone?!
I can't belive that RaRa - your consultant must be barking mad. I had my first child at 42 - was overweight and regularly drank half a bottle of wine a night; I specifically asked if I need any 'special care' - or was I at any additional risk and was told absolutely not.
No, really - as ridiculous as it sounds. Was sent to see a consultant ostensibly to have bloods done to check I'm not drinking heavily or using drugs, but it turned into 1.5 hours of lectures from a Substance Misuse Midwife and a consultant, and culminated into my being booked in for two additional scans (which is nice I suppose, at least I get to see the baby a bit more) and labelled as high risk until the scan at 31 weeks hopefully proves the baby is growing normally. Until that point, I won't know if I can give birth where I want to as I have to be low risk for that. Everything else means that I am - no health problems etc.
WTF rara! A girl we know mutually was puffing away on 50grams of golden virginia every week whilst pregnant and said she wasn't high risk in her notes. Wondering if she was lying now if you have been put as that! What a load of rubbish!
Honestly Rara on the basis of that I would be asking for a new consultant.
It sounds to me that they are just wanting to get their quota up or something.
I'm 34 weeks and seriously considering a small glass on christmas day - as long as he doesn't want to make an early show!
jelly , re HG I noticed a couple of posters on this thread who I have seen on the HG thread, all of us defending the occasional drink
Just to reiterate: yes, personally in fact due to the HG all tastes are just .. wrong ... atm including that of alcohol, from the 3 sips I've had so far. So im not that tempted.
But I will defend to the death the point that there is a huge amount of hysteria over small amounts of alcohol compared to other dangers. I cant think that living on top of a main road out of london where you have to clean the windowledge twice a day from the car-dirt and particles could be any good at all for a baby. Or the risk of crossing the road or running up the stairs. Or ignoring the risk of other foods in preg!
I'm fairly convinced some people are out to make trouble for reasons of their own, simply to be patronising or gaining pre-eminance or having some moral high ground. Others have much more genuine motives, but seem to have a problem with sensible thinking like directly comparing a glass of wine when preg with giving a baby wine in the bottle.
Do find it convincing that different babies have different genetic susceptibility to alcohol since every genetic study going about anything at all seems to show we all react in slightly different ways. Not at all convinced by some of the 'research'.
A sense of proportion'd be a fine thing.
Yes Meerka and I wonder if sufferers of HG are particularly aware of the lack of proportion in people's thinking because it's similar to the issues of prescribing medications in pregnancy. There are plenty of women taking anti-sickness meds in pregnancy but there are doctors and midwives who remain rigidly opposed because of the issues to do with ethical trials. Seems similar to the blanket ban on alcohol - easier to tell women to just get on with it than to actually research, find evidence and reach a balanced conclusion.
No, I would have no problem giving up alcohol (and I am not in the mood for it this pregnancy anyway) IF there was a good reason. I object to the patronising attitude that women should just act as unthinking incubators and surrender any freedoms that might have an impact on the baby even if there is no reason to think any harm will come and plenty of evidence to the contrary.
Disclaimer: my Dr was happy to prescribe meds but I got a lot better and didn't need them. Still angry to hear of the resistance other women face!
yup, when you've had to take a drug that they usually give for the side effects of chemotherapy - the odd glass of wine just does not seem that big a deal.
And YES about stupid, stupid doctors who don't even follow the NICE guidelines for extreme sickness but would rather you get so desperate you end up booking a termination even when you really really really want the baby and have been trying for years
<coughs> sorry. Bad hormone night.
Disclaimer: managed to get the drugs just in time for myself before going too far. But other women, sadly, do not.
Then had a whole other problem with CVS infection but that's another story. Ahem, sorry, derailing thread. Just wanted to make it clear that we didnt actually go thru with the termination
Back on-topic. sorry.
"I'm fairly convinced some people are out to make trouble for reasons of their own, simply to be patronising or gaining pre-eminance or having some moral high ground."
Well honestly I'm not! I'm just really concerned because of some of the issues I've seen with children I teach and the science seems to hang together for me. I don't want any more children that absolutely necessary to have to deal with these issues. That's why I feel quite passionate about it.
I don't know how you can judge someones motives really. I could just as well say that some people feel guilty at the thought that smaller amounts of alcohol could be harmful because they have drunk/are drinking during pregnancy. Then they dismiss or deny anything that might indicate harmfulness of lower levels of alcohol so they don't have to feel guilty. I wouldn't say this though because I can't possibly know what is going on in anyone else's thoughts/feelings unless they tell me!
educatingarti you've looked into it and argue cogently and reasonably. I dont agree with all your quoted sites, but that's a different matter.
I wasnt talking about you. I do get very pissed off with people who say you can't have the tiniest amount without looking into it seriously, or who give false information because some people can't be sensible about the whole matter. There's some posts that are, Im afraid, plain stupid like the one likening one small glass of wine during preg to putting wine in the baby's bottle. etc.
I'm having a real bad mood night so I'll shut up now
But honestly arti so far you've shared no science that supports the hypothesis that very small amounts of alcohol cause harm. You've linked to a press release about one study (that is unavailable to review) and a video that does not work (on either my laptop or iPad).
Sorry if I've missed a salient point but how do those who teach or work with children with leading difficulties know how much, if indeed any, alcohol their mothers frank during pregnancy. I'm completely failing to see a causal link.
Frank = drank. That'll be that Guiness Mum had when pg
I'm a health specialist, I've read all the research, I'm pregnant and I have a glass of wine probably every week or so! I did last pregnancy too. As long as you're not silly, low levels of alcohol do no harm
A couple of centuries ago, all women would have drunk would've been "small beer" (weak beer) as it was known that river water was dangerous to health, even if the reasons why weren't understood. I wonder if all our ancestors had some version of FAS...clearly they didn't, so it must take more than a single glass of wine to cause it.
Ok,will start by saying I have read the first and last page of this thread so have missed all the hoo ha in between! I have personally 100% abstained from alcohol during pregnancy (currently 35+5) that has purely been because for me I've found it easier that way. That said hubby and I have a tradition of having a
bottle glass of Buck's Fizz on Christmas morning and I fully intend to indulge in a small glass this year as well. Hubby will have no problems finishing the bottle!
That's what I wondered hoho. I can certainly see why those who work with FAS affected children would feel passionate on the issue, I'm just wondering how they would know how much alcohol the mother consumed. Especially as there'd be a pretty strong incentive to minimise your drinking, if you had indeed caused a child serious harm. And however strong these feelings are, I've also got pretty strong feelings that my right to accurate information and to not be infantilised during pregnancy are important.
I confess I haven't read the whole of this thread as it makes me too cross that people remain ignorant and uninformed, yet so judgemental, about this issue.
So…some proper evidence in no particular order
1) Alcohol (within normal drinking guidelines) does not cause harm during BREASTFEEDING (and to answer a previous poster, it IS better to breastfeed and consume low-moderate amounts of alcohol than it is to formula feed)
Ref: Alcohol and Breastfeeding. Haastrup MB, Pottegård A, Damkier P.
Basic Clin Pharmacol Toxicol. 2013 Oct 7. (PMID: 24118767)
A choice quote: "The amount of alcohol presented to nursing infants through breastmilk is approximately 5-6% of the weight-adjusted maternal dose, and even in a theoretical case of binge drinking, the children would not be subjected to clinically relevant amounts of alcohol"
2) As has been stated, the research done on alcohol in pregnancy is always going to be dodgy as there could never be double blinded randomised controlled trials, so it is mostly observational studies, and open to multiple confounding factors. The main one being that educated, higher social class women are more likely to drink small amounts during pregnancy (interesting in itself).
3) The largest study I am aware of (>90,000 women) did show an increased risk of miscarriage / foetal death in those women who consumed more than 2 glasses of wine per week in the first trimester. It did not affect the risk of foetal death in later trimesters. 1 - 1.5 glasses of wine per week did NOT show any increased risk (there was a dose-response with increasing levels of alcohol).
Ref: Moderate alcohol intake during pregnancy and risk of fetal death.
Andersen AM, Andersen PK, Olsen J, Grønbæk M, Strandberg-Larsen K.
Int J Epidemiol. 2012 Apr;41(2):405-13. (PMID: 22253313)
However, all this can show is an association and NOT cause, as this interesting comment highlights:
Ref: Re: Moderate alcohol intake during pregnancy and risk of fetal death. Savitz DA. Int J Epidemiol. 2012 Dec;41(6):1847 (PMID: 23064503)
4) Although this is a bit old now, this systematic review of 46 different research articles did not show any evidence of risk associated with low to moderate drinking, and in fact highlights better foetal outcomes for those who drank small quantities of alcohol than abstainers (again, this is may be due to confounding factors - healthier women of higher social class would be more likely to be the light drinkers - rather than true causation. As it is a systematic review it looks at all the evidence, rather than one particular study, so is far more powerful.
Ref: Henderson J, Gray R, Brocklehurst P. Systematic review of the effects of low-moderate prenatal alcohol exposure on pregnancy outcome. BJOG: an international journal of obstetrics and gynaecology 2007;114(3):243-52.
It remains a controversial topic, and there are certainly some studies that do show increased risk of behavioural issues etc with moderate drinking (rather than light drinking), but the methodologies are often questionable and the outcomes not consistent. Unlike smoking, which is unequivocally harmful.
Importantly, proving 'no harm' at particular levels is how all drugs / chemicals in foodstuffs etc are licensed, so if you're taking the "I won't drink because high levels of alcohol cause harm, so low levels might too" philosophy I hope you are staying away from all medications, processed foods, traffic fumes, preservatives, oily fish etc as they are controlled in exactly this way. They just have less Daily Mail judgements attached.
(I liked the Scuba Diving / Swimming analogy BTW)
There is certainly no evidence to say that a glass of wine at Christmas could POSSIBLY do anyone any harm.
So Cheers! Enjoy your Christmas
There's definitely far too much emphasis placed on some risks in pregnancy than in others where perhaps it should be.
I have seen people who avoid runny eggs etc like the plague, and won't drink a sip of wine, yet will do invasive testing such as amnio/CVS "just in case" with a low risk result with a consultant whose track record with such things they've not even looked into. Despite the now available alternative of the as-close-to-diagnostic-as-you-can-get Harmony etc.
Obviously there are exceptions like with very high risk when the stress of not knowing is horrendous and/or financial/practical considerations and sometimes people don't trust a Harmony result for whatever reason despite the evidence - fair enough. However often people cite the main reason as a "need to know right now" (as opposed to waiting a week or so longer for Harmony results) with a low to moderate screening result and so they will run the very real danger of losing their baby for their impatience and nothing else. Yet they won't touch a small glass of wine or the lionmark-stamped eggs. I don't get it.
Is it perhaps because consultants are happy to offer amnios (private ones especially will get paid extra for them after all) and talk confidently about them and gloss over the risk as that undermines their skills, but will wag their fingers over wine.. and the natural instinct is to trust that "doctor knows best"?
I'd love if the NHS produced a nice chart with the REAL risks of everything that's a danger to a pregnancy on it, so we could all see clearly at a glance roughly where a given thing fell. Might help get some perspective.
PS - yes, I will have a small glass of fizz on Christmas Day. In fact I am off to have a unit or so of Guinness right now. After the way my two year old has been the last few days, it's good for me to unwind!
That birth psychology website is, um, interesting. I like the bit where they approvingly quote a claim from a woman whose foetus asked her not to abort him.
I'll have a small amount (one small glass of wine with dinner) on Christmas day and probably boxing day: I'll be 28wks. I've had a very moderate amount of alcohol (1 glass, once a week or occasionally twice a week) since the end of the first trimester. With a meal, with water, I honestly can't see that this is doing any harm. I've also eaten my bodyweight in soft-boiled eggs. Mind you, I have gestational diabetes, so I won't be able to have any Christmas cake, mince pies, roast potatoes, biscuits, fruit juice, cordial, Schloer etc etc...
Ipressive post, EvidenceBasedMum
crispyFB just a note: I had the CVS test , being at a high risk of downs ( 1 in 25 or 1 in 30 ) and very nearly lost my baby due to infection. There were reasons not to wait for the amnio.
The reason I took the CVS test was because I live in the Netherlands where, utterly idiotically, the blood test is not (yet) authorised. I was too sick with HG to be able to travel to Belgium or Germany, where is it.
But absolutely agreed that on the scale of some threats, a glass of wine every 2 weeks is negligable
I'm so happy to see so many continuing voices of reason on this thread.
for us all! Hurrah!
Thanks for such a balanced and informative post, Evidence. I want to copy and paste it onto every thread that comes up about drinking in pregnancy!
(And print out a copy onto a scroll to use to bludgeon the next person who bleats "but would you put wine in a baby's bottle? Then why take the risk???!!!)
And Meerka, you have had such a shocking time . I hope the rest of your pregnancy goes much more smoothly!
yes, evidence's post is great isnt it!
thanks ... it's a great deal better now and honestly, we are just sending up thank you prayers that we pulled through. Roll on the end of april =) Gotta say, mumsnet and lucindaE have been just amazing
Hooray for all the voices of reason.
I do hope all the judgeypants posters aren't going to have any pain relief in labour as that's 'just like putting prescription painkillers in a baby's bottle'. Or is that different?
Hopeless "Sorry if I've missed a salient point but how do those who teach or work with children with leading difficulties know how much, if indeed any, alcohol their mothers frank during pregnancy. I'm completely failing to see a causal link."
Just to clarify:
There are obviously many causes of mild learning difficulties in children. I'm not saying for one moment that any of my current student have learning difficulties because their mother's drank while pregnant.
However -as there is ( I think) some evidence certainly that moderate drinking can cause problems for some children and possibly even light drinking (see below) I'm just concerned as I wouldn't want a child to be affected by this.
Evidence's post is great but in the main is talking about miscarriages/health of infant rather than learning difficulties. she does say this:
"It remains a controversial topic, and there are certainly some studies that do show increased risk of behavioural issues etc with moderate drinking (rather than light drinking), but the methodologies are often questionable and the outcomes not consistent. Unlike smoking, which is unequivocally harmful."
she doesn't comment on the specific study I mentioned above which does mention light drinking:
Ref:Maternal alcohol consumption during pregnancy may delay the development of spontaneous fetal startle behaviour
Hepper, P., Dornan, J. R. C. & Little, J. F. 17 Jan 2005 In : Physiology & Behavior. 83(5), 5, p. 711-714
Tondo - it isn't my fault you have to pay to read the entire study - that is common to most scientific publications including probably most of the ones Evidence has referenced. However I would think that if anyone wanted to read it and email Dr Hepper at Queens University Belfast, he might probably send you an electronic copy of the paper. I'm sorry your links don't work Howver you can I think see the same bit of video is on the advice to midwives link I did link to ages ago).
Downstairs and Mixup : Thanks for your agreement - never felt more awkward in my life! Was not an enjoyable hospital trip :-/ I dunno if I can ask for another consultant - I think she's the only one that does the 'substance misuse' thing . Thinking of moving to another area though - in terms of health trust, not house lol! Will discuss with my midwife when I see her on Christmas Eve.
Educatingarti 'However -as there is ( I think) some evidence certainly that moderate drinking can cause problems for some children and possibly even light drinking (see below) I'm just concerned as I wouldn't want a child to be affected by this.'
Well, I'm concerned that my right to be treated as an adult with dominion over my own body during pregnancy might be affected by scaremongering, supposition and deliberate line blurring in order to try and bully me into making decisions based on someone else's moral preferences instead of actual evidence. And as plenty of us have female children, this also potentially affects them in the future too. Since it is important for my DD to be treated as an adult with capacity and a right to accurate information during any pregnancy she may undergo, it is as much my duty to promote this as it was to protect her as best as I could during pregnancy.
Evidence, big cheers to you, great post. Clink clink!
It's interesting the way guidelines have changed over the years. 19 years ago, I distinctly remember my GP saying to me during my pregnancy "if you are used to having a glass of wine a night, then carry on having a glass a night"! The advice then was no binges, but moderation fine. (I didn't carry on drinking at that level, but it meant I didn't feel guilty if I did have some wine).
Four years later when pregnant with ds3 the guidelines had tightened up a bit, but not to the extent advised today.
If I were pregnant today (totally impossible) - I think I would enjoy an occasional glass of wine with no guilt attached.
Actually, educatingarti has loooked into it and is speaking from a position of genuine concern. Might not agree with her findings, but she is speaking rationally and not bullying, simply putting her pov.
To be clear, I wasn't suggesting arti was bullying, rather was describing what the attitude she advocates leads to. I apologise to her if it seemed that I was calling her a bully. She herself has been nothing but polite and well mannered in this thread, but nonetheless the ideas she advocates are still extremely worrying regardless of her clearly genuine motivations.
sorry too, i was a bit pregzilla yestrday and now im feeling bad about it!
Meerka - you'd fall into the exceptions obviously - very high risk AND not practical to get an alternative. I'm talking about the people who have a 1 in 300 risk, panic, and go for CVS right away (even though the other tests are available) yet won't touch a drop of wine. Believe me, I've come across them..
Sorry to hear you had such a traumatic time though and I hope things are better now!
I haven't had any alcoholic drinks so far - I'm 24+2 ATM but I will treat myself to one glass with my Christmas dinner!
I really don't believe a the odd glass of wine will do any harm - although I'm not a particularly big drinker anyway so I don't actually miss it - although I have had the odd graving for a sip of larger - very strange lol
I'm 14 weeks pregnant & so looking forward to a couple of drinks on Xmas day. Already planned it...glass of prosecco while cooking, then a glass of red with dinner
Go for it & enjoy.
Tondo - it isn't my fault you have to pay to read the entire study - that is common to most scientific publications including probably most of the ones Evidence has referenced.
But you don't seem to have read it either - that was my challenge. You seem to be basing your conclusions about light drinking what is said in the video.
You can get full full studies evidencebased has referred to online and for free.
Alcohol and Breastfeeding
Systematic review of effects of low?moderateprenatal alcohol exposure on pregnancy outcome
Moderate alcohol intake during pregnancy and risk of fetal death
I'm not having a go at you arti, I'm really not. I share your concerns about FAS and dealing with the impact of that (I don't have to in my job - it must be tough) but I really think the claim that very light drinking DOES cause harm to mental development needs to be backed up and needs further study - because that goes against an overwhelming amount of current evidence.
What might prevent more children being born with FAS? Investment in Alcohol Services (instead of relying on the voluntary AA), minimum pricing per unit, better policing of licensed premises, more training of midwives dealing with addiction and alcoholism, better services for mothers who have substance abuse problems, better diagnostic testing, better sex and health education, more proactive reaching out to women who do not regularly access prenatal or sexual health services.
What probably won't prevent more children being born with FAS? Demonising women - who in possession of all the evidence / advice from their care givers - drink very small amounts of alcohol (1/2 units per week) occasionally through their pregnancy.
Sorry for that rant, merry Christmas to you all and /
Sorry, I just want to add how much it breaks my heart when children are born with preventable health problems that impact on their quality of life and I am full of huge admiration for you and all that you do arti and as someone has said upthread, you have been very polite throughout.
I can't WAIT for christmas eve/day when I will have a lovely glass of champagne . I will be 32 weeks by then and can count on one hand the number of drinks I have had since conception! I did celebrate my bfp with a mojito though . I am not a big drinker anyway, but I do console myself in pregnancy with quality over quantity (will drink any old crap when not pg or bf!)
I didn't touch a drop on my last pregnancy purely because I'd had a placenta abruption the night after having a small glass of beer with my first DS so I didn't want to take even the tiniest chance of having another one. Nobody can prove a link but it's always at the back of my mind (he's 9 now and perfectly normal) I was classed as high risk for a few reasons on my recent pregnancy, so I'd always have blamed myself if anything went wrong. I lost all taste for alcohol anyway during the pregnancy. I've had one guinness since the twins were born, I wouldn't fancy getting up at 3am with small babies after a drink or two! Kopparberg non-alcoholic cider is yum, I'm getting some for Christmas Day. Enjoy your glasses of wine, ladies. No harm in one or two as long as you aren't high risk. No spirits!!
I will be 25wk on xmas day. I will be having a small glass of prosecco with lunch and a baileys with breakfast. Im not a huge drinker at any time but will be having some xmas day.
I was 5 months at Xmas and had 2 white wine spritzers then my 30th bday was 4 jan and have another 2 my baby is 8 months and as healthy as a horse. But it's up to u of course x
I will be 20 weeks at christmas and won't drink any alcohol. I won't because I am afraid of taking the risk. There are plenty of other risks that I can't avoid and more that I probably don't know about so abstaining from one small risk of causing FAS isn't a chore for me.
Anecdotal stories won't change my mind on it. This is my baby and I'm the one who has to deal with the consequences of my actions.
I know I am being overly cautious and wouldn't judge others for feeling the opposite.
I am a light drinker but I think we have become obsessed with this issue. What on earth do you think will happen after say ONE glass of champagne. Its the problem women drinkers that have no intention of stopping pregnant or not that we need to focus on. Please go after them.
FGS - give it a rest!
Let's not forget that the OP wasn't even asking about one drink a week - she was asking about one drink at Christmas, which leads me to believe that she's not drunk anything else during her whole pregnancy. I'll be 33 weeks at Christmas and will have a glass of liqueur. That and the mulled cider I had at my work Xmas do 2 weeks ago is pretty much all I've drunk throughout my pregnancy and I really don't think it will do any harm.
I was pregnant over the Xmas period some years ago (two months gone) and the only time I had a drink during the whole pregnancy was at Xmas, I think I had one glass of sparkling...no negative effects whatsoever!
My second pregnancy, I think I again, a beer (half pint) and again, no probs.
I really think one glass of red at Xmas will be just fine, IMHO!
I'm not working in the right research field so don't have access to the right journals to see if it's already been done, but surely it'd be fairly simple to put together a study into Educating's theories of low alcohol consumption by comparing diagnosis rates in the children of dry populations vs populations with low, medium and high levels of alcohol intake? There'd be a lot of sociocultural factors to control for, but it's not beyond the realms of possibility. To the best of my knowledge, there's not a noticeably lower rate of educational disabilities support needed for the children of strict muslim mothers (to pick the obvious example) vs the broader populations.
It would indeed be great to have the results of such studies Kerosene, I agree- i guess we'll never have them though as people who drink heavily during pregnancy are probably too embarrassed about it to engage in a study per se. Or maybe not, who knows. If they were offered enough money i'm sure they'd consent!
FTR, as one who was pro 'the odd glass', i had half a glass last night at my work Christmas party, and actually felt pretty awful after it! I didnt even finish it.. which, trust me, is a first!!! That's not to say I wont have a handful more over the next 5 months- but i really didnt feel too hot after it- kind of like a strange indigestion or something? I guess it could be mother nature's way of keeping me dry!!
I had a southern comfort and lemonade last night... my friends looked horrified until I explained that I was allowed the odd drink here and there. One (not really a friend but an acquaintance) insisted that I wasn't and that the baby would have foetal alcohol syndrome and I was effectively killing it by having a drink
I am on the fence moomin but your experience is the exact reason that if I did decide to have a preggy drink it'd be at home
I just laughed and told him to fuck off. I'm just
rude thick-skinned, me
It would be the Southern Comfort that brought out the judgy pants. Don't you no pregnant ladies only ever drink a 'glass of wine'
Go ahead OP, have two. The sheer amount of lovely stuff that pregnant women can be persuaded to abstain from amazes me. But then, I celebrated my positive pregnancy test with a glass of Champagne and just used my own common sense for the rest.
Tondelayo no apparently any alcohol at all is fatal to unborn babies. He nearly fainted later on when I told him I've had a couple of glasses of wine topped up with lemonade in the 21 weeks I've been pregnant
Can you just not do it for this one year? You've got plenty of Xmas's to have a drink. Wouldn't risk it personally, seems utterly pointless to me.
What risk, exactly, do you think the OP is running with a single glass of wine at Christmas?
^ ^ ^
And so the merry circle begins again!!
<<drowns self in >>
Sorry penguins - that was meant for poster above you
Sounds like loveolives is the guy from the party last night
Also if you read the second link in EvidenceBasedMum's post of yesterday - there are RISKS of abstaining completely as well! Which way do we pregnant women turn?
Clue: towards the bar
I've had a bottle of lager and enjoyed it
Don't forget that those who are most likely to drink a lot while pregnant are addicts, and addicts notoriously don't tell the truth. so all the data about actual amounts of alcohol and their effects on a child is going to be skewed, in that unless a woman in is hospital and under observation for 40 weeks, you only have her word for how much she has actually drunk, and in cases where it is problematic it is likely to be a lot more than she said
When I was pg I used to like to theatrically swig heartily from a dewy bottle of very cold alcohol-free lager.
This is crazy - the nhs website say's that one-two glasses of wine, once
or twice a week is fine. For FAS you would have to be drinking at least two bottles of wine a night every night, it would also have to be not your first pregnancy, and very probably not your second either.
I know how easy it is to get obsessed when your pregnant so i will back away here.
Why do you have to be on baby no. 2 or 3 for it to get FAS?
Seriously, people can't go for JUST 9 months without a drink?? No I never would while pregnant. It's just not worth it. We don't know the effects or the amounts that can harm them. It's so unknown, why would you risk it??? I've been pregnant twice over Christmas and never drank, it can be done! It's a tiny sacrifice to make. There'll be a hell of a lot of changes to your life when the baby is born, if you can't be bothered to change this one tiny Christmas tradition for the safety of your child then I feel sorry for your baby.
Sorry, I had not read the thread and was directly replying to the OP. I also said I wouldn't risk it 'personally'. By risk I mean risk anything, any chance that anything could happen, so personally I felt it was best to abstain in my pregnancies. If in doubt it's probably best to avoid, op will have plenty more xmas's to drink on. So not sure why all the sarcasm...
The nhs website actually says that if you are pregnant or trying to get pregnant you should not drink alcohol.
It then goes on to say that if you chose to drink, stick to one or two units a week.
So it clearly doesn't say it's safe to drink. it explains about baby's liver development as the main reason.
here is the page, sorry I don't know how to make it clickable.
I feel sorry for yours if you're too dense to understand the current state of research before mouthing off stick. If you wish to avoid alcohol because you think you know better than the evidence indicating no risk to moderate consumption, that's your business, but I'm afraid you don't get to harangue other women to do the same.
To add a slightly different spin on the debate I'm on medication that, under consultant supervision, is deemed ok to take in pregnancy. The health benefits for me of taking my meds vs not taking them are significant for me. The other alternatives are considered not safe in pregnancy so the options are limited.
When you look at the ingredients list alcohol is on there, albeit at a teeney tiny amount. Not enough by any stretch of the imagination to get you drunk or over the drink drive limit or impede your function but technically its there. So I've not been able to completely abstain even if I had wanted to and that's been on nhs advice.
But in answer to the op yes I will also partake of a tipple on Christmas day too, but a weak bitter shandy rather than wine.
I hope and imagine everyone on this thread can go 9 months plus without a drink, the point is should pregnant women feel they have to and as referenced above the current evidence is that light drinking (1-2 units once or twice a week) is no problem at all. It is also known that FAS is caused by heavy drinking. The journals are straightforward reads and most only require the type to take in the abstracts.
Apologies to come across sarcastic Olive but as you say you haven't read the thread nor then the research papers cited by posters.
Time to take in the abstracts that should say. Apologies, functioning on two hours sleep - thought the baby was on her way last night!
Even with research, which correct me if I'm wrong, there isn't any to say it's 100% safe? I'm personally still not 100% sure about it so I abstain. Anyone that has a doubt probably should too.
Do you have any research proving that all of the things you're consuming during pregnancy are 100% safe? I'll give you a clue- you don't. That's not really how these things work. What you do is you look at the research indicating that there's no risk to moderate consumption- and there's plenty of it- and extrapolate from that. Because if you want 100% proof that something is safe before consuming it in pregnancy, you won't be eating or drinking much of anything at all.
Oh yes I agree and I'm very lax about it all to be honest, just for me personally drinking alcohol just didn't seem ok. I ate sushi, odd bit of pate, there was something else you aren't meant to eat but I did, milkshake I think. You weigh up the pros and cons for yourself, and for me alcohol wasn't worth it at all. The op obviously had doubts or they wouldn't ask, so on that basis I'd refrain. I had doubts so I refrained also.
You see, olive, statistically you've made a more dangerous choice eating pâté. The risk from pâté is listeria - it's unlikely you'd get it, but if you did, a one-off incident of listeria carries a risk of miscarriage or stillbirth. A one-off glass of wine on the other hand isn't going to cause FAS.
Pate is far worse a risk than drinking one small glass of wine
Perhaps you need to read the reasons why before you tell others what to do
I'm not telling anyone what to do, I used the word personally. Realistically without being hysterical a glass of wine here and there isn't going to cause any harm. But for me PERSONALLY I chose to abstain because I had my doubts. Not very hard to understand tbh.
Perhaps you should read my post thoroughly.
I understand your post. I'm merely pointing out that your logic is flawed.
The logic that I decided not to drink because nobody knows for certain about the affects of alcohol, so I just decided it's best to be safe than sorry isn't flawed but yes, ok.
It's illogical to decide that you won't consume alcohol because it isn't 100% certain to be safe, but not apply that to everything else. Particularly to things that are actually known to be a risk in pregnancy, but also to other things that aren't.
Not really, that's the beauty of weighing up the pros and cons and deciding for yourself the risk factor. For me personally I decided at the start of my pregnancies that alcohol in any quantity wouldn't be passing my lips because I had my doubts. The odd bit of this and that and the odd bit of alcohol probably wouldn't do any damage, however I felt the alcohol was a bigger risk than the half teaspoon of pate I had on two occasions.
You felt wrongly, then. I would never tell a woman what to eat and not to eat during pregnancy, but while you're entitled to your own opinions and decisions you aren't entitled to your own facts. You're wrong about the risk of one drink at Christmas, and while that would be fine if you kept it to yourself, you haven't.
Indeed. Pâté in any quantity (a tablespoon contaminated with listeria is just as damaging as a whole pack) is more risky than one glass of wine. Avoiding alcohol but not avoiding pâté is illogical.
Nope I didn't feel wrongly, my opinions and my choices aren't wrong. And again, I've not told anyone what to do - people weigh up the pros and cons and make their own choices. I've used the word personally numerous times here. I'm happy to carry on debating without going round in circles.
Was saying on another thread I wouldn't touch pate, even in tiny amounts. Apart from the listeria risk, the evidenced correlation between birth defects and vitamin A consumption is too risky for me. So absolutely agree about weighing up pros and cons but I do like to have the evidence (frustrated scientist having done my MSc and then entered the business world!).
Anyway I have a houseful of people to serve copious amounts of alcohol to (and non alcoholic pinch for the drivers and me!) arriving at noon so better get the canapés ready.
Have a lovely Saturday ladies!
Your day sounds a lot more fun than mine is going to be! Enjoy x
Your choice isn't wrong olives, but your opinion is. And you've certainly hectored another woman too, which is what you did in your post last night when you asked OP why she couldn't just abstain for 9 months. Bad enough that you feel yourself entitled to influence other women in their decisions, but you could at least do enough research to give you a chance of being right!
Again, my opinion is not wrong. If people want to take a randomers opinion on the internet as gospel then cool beans but on a number of occasions I've said personally. Relax!
Yes it is. The question of whether 1 drink at Christmas is safe isn't a matter of opinion, and nor is the issue of whether pate is safer than alcohol. There's a correct answer to both, and you have failed to grasp it. And regardless of how many times you claim only to be speaking for yourself, the fact remains that you berated OP, based on ignorance, and have yet to take that back. You were wrong in your first post, you've been wrong ever since, and you got more wrong throughout the thread.
If that's what you think, cool beans. My opinion isn't wrong, I stand by everything I've said.
If my opinion was that driving without a seatbelt is fine, my opinion would be wrong. I'm entitled to have it and to choose to follow it, but it is still wrong.
Your opinion is that any alcohol at all in pregnancy is to be avoided but a little bit of pâté is ok. Factually that is incorrect and illogical, and therefore your opinion is wrong. You're entitled to believe it, but that doesn't magically make it correct because the facts it is based on are wrong.
Again if that's what you think and believe them cool. Have a nice day!
Ok - I'm not going to start all over again but had to just point this out.
If you are going to challenge statements made by those who think pregnant women should abstain from alcohol, inaccuracies by those who think a small amount of alcohol is OK also need to be challenged.
SimLondon says "For FAS you would have to be drinking at least two bottles of wine a night every night," This isn't true.
Susan Astley professor of Epidemiology and Pediatrics at the University of Ashington and director of the Washington State FAS Diagnostic & Prevention Network of clinics says " 1 out of every 14 children we have diagnosed with full blown FAS over the past 20 years had a reported exposure of just 1 drink per day. In fact, one of these children was reported to have been exposed to just 1 beer per day for the first 4 months. While it is true that the majority of children born with FAS were exposed to higher levels of alcohol, some (like this child) were exposed to just 1 drink a day."
Full article depts.washington.edu/fasdpn/pdfs/astley-oster.pdf
Of course these are "reported" consumptions and may have be higher but also may not - we can't know for sure and certainly way lower than 2 bottles of wine a night!
This link seems interesting also - talking about the different effects the same amount of alcohol may have dependent on genetic make-up here
I am not pregnant. I don't drink much but enjoy the odd glass of wine or two over Christmas. I have struggled with external ear infections since October and now have a perforated ear drum (ouchy) and have started a cold. I went to the ENT clinic yesterday and they have prescribed me with ear drops but also a 10 day course of oral antibiotics. Guess who won't be drinking over Christmas now!!
I thought that regular light drinking was actually a greater fas risk than heavier 'one off' binges?
Define "regular". Define "light". One woman's glass of champagne at Xmas and weddings is another's two 250ml 13% Chardonnays a day.
That one beer a day in arti's post could have been a pint of Tennants Super or it could have been a half of bud.
That's the trouble - we do have a very distorted and varied idea of what "light drinking" is in this country. When not pregnant i drink on or under the NHS recommended limit of around 14 units per week. In my social and work circle that is considered verging on teetotal. I think it's verging on too much.
I agree with arti on the 2 bottles of wine though. That's not just going to damage your baby, it's probably going to kill you very soon.
arti the problem is that (as HCPs well know) just about everyone downplays their alcohol intake when asked about it. So it's unlikely that those babies (only 1 in 14 in any case?) really did get FAS from only one a day. Even if they did, one drink a day would equal anything from 7-21 units a week, depending on the size of the drinks. That's over the quantities deemed " safe" in pregnancy anyway, and over the amount that anyone is talking about on this thread. So it doesn't prove that one drink on Christmas Day is harmful, at all.
Yes, I agree arti. Even when I say I don't abstain completely, I am talking 1-2 units, generally about once a fortnight. I might have 1-2 units twice over the Christmas period. I am under no illusions that drinking at high levels could be dangerous in pregnancy long before it is a problem to others. And two bottles of wine is liver wrecking levels for anyone.
*Olives' risk analysis does remain wrong. If you have been tee total throughout pregnancy and intend to remain so, there is no current evidence that choosing to have a single glass of wine (so 1-2 units once in a pregnancy) is any risk whatsoever. In fact, if faced with the choice of accepting the glass of champagne before lunch or the chicken liver pate starter (assuming you don't consume either at other times), it's a pretty clear choice in terms of risk analysis. Because pate is a binary risk - if it has listeria, there is the risk of harm to the baby even if you only had a taste. Whereas alcohol damage is dose dependent : high doses will almost certainly cause harm, one sip of someone's champagne will not. Nor for that matter will a one-off single glass.
educatingarti unless you're on Metronidazole which is unlikely for an ear infection you can drink on antibiotics
I felt the alcohol was a bigger risk than the half teaspoon of pate I had on two occasions
What has gone wrong when people don't get that a minuscule amount of something contaminated with listeria is more dangerous than a glass of wine (and not even a small one) here and there?
There's a moral thing going on here, for sure.
Chunderella , this is the thing, isn't it? It's not about me being 'dense' (what a nice woman you sound btw). It's about the fact that we just don't know the research or the full impact. Even doctors are torn on it. So don't try and make me out to be some how intellectually challenged, my dear. I stand by what I said. For me my child's safety is paramount. What you chose to do is entirely your choice but this is a public forum where op asked for opinions. This is mine. Like it or not.
I don't think the alcohol vs pâté argument is particularly helpful. It's about different types of risk.
The risk from listeria in pâté is like drawing straws. If you draw the short straw, catastrophe. But there are lots and lots and lots of long straws and very very few short straws. Everything you eat has a chance of you drawing the short straw - it's just that pâté has a few more short straws in the mix than most things.
Whereas alcohol is like turning a dial. Imagine you're at a party at a friends house with lots of noise, people chatting, clinking glasses, moving around. You decide to turn on their old stereo - turning the volume dial up from zero. Turning it up just one or two notches you can't hear anything. You don't know whether it's not making any noise at all, or you just can't hear it because of all the other noise in the room. If you keep on turning the dial up, maybe you'd start to hear something faintly and if you crank the dial right up eventually it'd drown out all the other noise in the room.
Plateofcrumbs, I think that's a very elegant explanation. We're generally not very good (as a species!) at understanding risk, and it doesn't help when it gets mixed up with moral outrage.
Stick I'm afraid you can't pull off either being patronising or making comments about other people's personalities. Not when you've already played the cunt and illustrated that you don't understand the current research. Like it or not, all the evidence is that there is no risk at all to 1-2 units weekly. The doctors you mention are either talking about more alcohol than that, or are deliberately blurring the lines to reinforce their preconceived prejudices. If you think you know better than the research and decide not to consume any yourself simply because you think there might be an undiscovered risk, that's your business. But as soon as you start moralising at other women, you get called out. Particularly when you say you feel sorry for the children of others. You really need your house in order before pulling that shit, and yours manifestly isn't. The fact that OP asked for opinions doesn't mean you get to say something stupid and obnoxious with no consequences. Don't like it? Watch your mouth then.
Olives it isn't what I think, it's what I know.
Haha so sad when people can't voice their opinions without using vile language. Yet you question my intelligence?! What an utter delight you sound. I won't be bothering to check up on this particular thread again. It is abundantly clear the sort of people who think drinking while pregnant is acceptable (ie the kind who use profanities when they are so much as challenged by another) . God bless. Have a lovely Christmas Chundy x
Exactly what I was thinking Stick, he/she sounds very bitter and pissy!
And again Chunderella, if that's what you think then cooooooooool beanio! Have a lovely Xmas
"The sort of people who think drinking when pregnant is acceptable"... Wow. Judgemental, much?
stick way to go, lumping off of us who have decided to drink during pregnant (at what ever level we feel comfortable at) as those sort of people. I'm afraid if you actually read most of this thred a good proportion of us didn't judge other, use profanities or pick fights.
Not excusing those who you may feel have crossed the line, but IMHO your reaction is quite intolerant and not eflext
Each to their own what ever they chose
stick way to go, lumping off of us who have decided to drink during pregnant (at what ever level we feel comfortable at) as those sort of people. I'm afraid if you actually read most of this thred a good proportion of us didn't judge other, use profanities or pick fights.
Not excusing those who you may feel have crossed the line, but IMHO your reaction is quite intolerant and not reflecting just your opionion.
Each to their own whatever they chose.
I think that extrapolating that all people who approve of the odd drink during pregnancy also swear because one person who holds that view swears really tells us all we need to know about this person's approach to statistical analysis...as also evidenced by their failure to grasp the evidence that exists regarding drinking and pregnancy.
Equally, eschewing all alcohol but eating pate (even in tiny quantities) demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding of the risks involved in either.
<chuckling> well, indeed, some of the people on this thread are the kinds of people who look at the evidence, hopefully on both sides, before coming down with blanket statements.
Wow stick if you think dropping a c bomb is worse than slagging off other people's parenting based solely on lavish ignorance, you've even less sense than I thought. Remember that maternal intelligence has actually been proven to impact on children's prospects, unlike 1-2 units of alcohol per week in pregnancy. We both know you'll be reading this despite your protestations otherwise, so give it some thought. And read things before gobbing off.
Enjoy your pate olives. And don't beat yourself up if you succumb to a Christmas drinky poos too, its as safe as houses.
Wow - 'published'!? No alcohol consumed, honest!
Hi all, just wondered who succumbed to a glass of anything today? I have been reading this thread with interest. Im 17 wks. For the first time (and only time) in this pregnancy i had a few glasses of fizz with my christmas dinner.... I enjoyed it! But wont be repeating this again in my pregnancy. I am now berating myself horribly. Just wondered what everyone else had decided to do xxx
Don't berate yourself pussycat! The evidence doesn't support abstinence, and I had a wee glass of prosecco myself today at 17 weeks. My pregnant doctor friends that I work with aren't abstaining totally either, and they are senior consultants - they know best!
I'm 28 weeks and had planned to have a glass of wine but I didn't actually get round to it! I probably will have a glass over the festive period but I'm not a big drinker anyway.
I had a thimble full of sherry and a splash of red in a glass with lunch, and it was lovely. No one made a fuss or commented it was just really nice, and it was such small amounts I'm not going to worry or feel guilty. Happy Christmas!
I had a quarter of a glass if champagne that last me almost an hour. My dad said a glass won't hurt get it down you! 14+3 yesterday. First alcohol of the pregnancy and it was good.
McFox are they obstetric consultants?
I've nc for another thread but I've commented on here with my feelings, as a mum and midwife and being newly pregnant myself now, yesterday I didn't bother at all.
Hope everyone had a lovely day.
I had a glass of red yesterday, it lasted me about 2 hrs and I enjoyed it. I had a Buck's Fizz on Sunday too. During the remaining festive period I shall probably have another small drink or two.
I'm 16+3. During the rest of the pregnancy i'll probably have one small drink a week. It's what I did my with my DS and I feel comfortable with that. All of my friends also followed same policy and everyone's children are bright as buttons.
I'm 24 weeks and I've just had 2 glasses of white wine as I'm totally fed up with everything and everyone. It was lovely and I'm not going to feel bad about it. x
santa my SIL is an obstetric consultant and she told me to have a glass of wine on my birthday when I was pregnant.
Yep, I had my Veuve in the morning and beers on the beach in the afternoon - tasted fantastic.
Glass of wine this afternoon too - happily I'm intelligent enough to listen to the advice of my OBGYN and not the judgement of pissy strangers on the internet.
Hope all had a lovely day whether they had a drink or not!
Had 2 glasses of pressecco over 4 hours. 17 weeks now.
Nope. Didn't have the balls to. We were at MIL for Xmas dinner, and she'd went to the trouble of buying me non-alcoholic wine. I felt like too much of a wimp to say that I'd prefer a small glass of the real stuff.
Went to my mums for dinner on boxing day though. And she poured me a lovely glass of bucks fizz without me even having to ask.
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