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How will the abolition of mums and dads effect us and our babies?

(336 Posts)
kfca Sun 02-Dec-12 19:43:17

Does anyone else mind not being recognised as the mother of their baby, if the law changes, maybe in the new year, with the marriage changes?
Will mumsnet have to rename itself as LegalParent_A_net?

Bagofspiders Sun 02-Dec-12 19:44:56

Have I missed something?

TimeyWimeyStuff Sun 02-Dec-12 19:46:52


Pagwatch Sun 02-Dec-12 19:47:48


looneytune Sun 02-Dec-12 19:48:57

Another one who doen't have a clue?

BarbaraBar Sun 02-Dec-12 19:49:29

Have you been drinking?

Alameda Sun 02-Dec-12 19:49:29

fascinating first post, welcome to MN etc

can't wait to get to know you a bit better through your posts


HoneyDragon Sun 02-Dec-12 19:50:01


Pagwatch Sun 02-Dec-12 19:52:50


I've been drinking. Is that any help?

BarbaraBar Sun 02-Dec-12 19:54:05

Do you mean the "Abolition of Mummy and Daddy(derogatory terms) Act 2012"?

BarbaraBar Sun 02-Dec-12 19:54:53

And me Pag.

TeamSledward Sun 02-Dec-12 19:56:21

<passes the wine around>

Djembe Sun 02-Dec-12 19:56:25

I wish I was drinking, I'm on the Megabus from hell.

kfca Sun 02-Dec-12 19:57:23

No, under the same-sex marriage law, mother's will be called Legal parent A's, and fathers, Legal parent B's - didn't you realise?

Alameda Sun 02-Dec-12 19:58:16

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

BarbaraBar Sun 02-Dec-12 19:58:17

Tell us about the megabus <compassion>

Djembe Sun 02-Dec-12 19:58:20

I didn't realise we were going to move the apostrophe's.

Alameda Sun 02-Dec-12 19:58:37

Whoops confused

Djembe Sun 02-Dec-12 19:59:21

Well there is a man snoring behind me, and a posh student type fucking knitting in front of me, which is making me irrationally angry.

kfca Sun 02-Dec-12 19:59:40

No, I'm just a mum, and I want to be recognised as one.

sittinginthesun Sun 02-Dec-12 20:00:27

What's he/she knitting? Is it a scarf, or something more involved?

Chubfuddler Sun 02-Dec-12 20:00:48

Did the daily mail tell you this by any chance?

TimeyWimeyStuff Sun 02-Dec-12 20:01:01

Pretty sure we're not all being abolished. Is there some sort of contingency plan? Should we gather in an air raid shelter? Who's bringing the spam and do we need zombie backpacks?

(OP, a bit of clarity at the start of the thread and perhaps a link would be good.)

BarbaraBar Sun 02-Dec-12 20:01:03

Legal Parent A's what?

I don't really care what I'm called on official documents. I'm still Mum, always will be.

BarbaraBar Sun 02-Dec-12 20:02:30

The student is knitting a parent A? Gosh. I had no idea.

EdithWeston Sun 02-Dec-12 20:04:19

Don't see how you can decide what the law will contain when it hasn't even been written yet

Nor do I see the need to change the nomenclature as already in use on official documents by lesbian and gay parents which coexists without problem with hetero terminology

Bluestocking Sun 02-Dec-12 20:04:37

Fucking knitting? Sounds a bit dry and scratchy.

Djembe Sun 02-Dec-12 20:05:40

I think it's a scarf.

What am I meant to be irate about? I think as long as I get to be A and DH can be B, that'd be dandy.

QuickLookBusy Sun 02-Dec-12 20:05:44

I've never been abolished before. It might be quite exciting.

kfca Sun 02-Dec-12 20:07:18

This is important to all of us - the Government have said that the terms mother and father will be scrapped from law, and we will be known as Legal parent A and Legal parent B instead. (A bit better than Progeniter A and Progeniter B as mums and dads are now called in Spain).

HoneyDragon Sun 02-Dec-12 20:08:48

Thankfully this I'd not an issue for me. Dd is currently adamant that I am not her mum.

"Mummy. I am NOT your daughta!" <<foot stamp and flounce>>

It's rather charming. grin

HoneyDragon Sun 02-Dec-12 20:09:31

How is it important?

TeamSledward Sun 02-Dec-12 20:09:45

A link would help, because without a source it sounds as though you are making this up.

On most official forms Legal Guardian/s is the term used anyway.

EmmaNess Sun 02-Dec-12 20:09:46

It's not important to me.

Bluestocking Sun 02-Dec-12 20:10:25

What on earth are you gibbering on about, OP? Can you link us to a news item or a government website? Because if you can't, we are going to have to conclude that you need a thicker foil hat, because the messages are getting through.

BarbaraBar Sun 02-Dec-12 20:12:11

Hardly likely that we'd be called Progeniter A or B cos that's forrin innit.

I'll stick with mummy and daddy thanks (very young children)

sittinginthesun Sun 02-Dec-12 20:13:31

I don't think it actually matters at all, does it? Why does it bother you, OP? At the moment, I'm "Mummy", which isn't an official name. On official documents, I'd assume I was a "parent".

<knew it would be a scarf!>

Alameda Sun 02-Dec-12 20:14:31

progenitor is better I think, because it sounds a bit like pro genital

but surely the important thing is that marriage is not something only heterosexuals have to suffer, we can share the misery more equally now, everyone wants equality don't they?

SmeggingAroundTheChristmasTree Sun 02-Dec-12 20:14:43

Uh - surely that's already the case in law anyway?


MirandaWest Sun 02-Dec-12 20:15:48

I very vaguely remember this being discussed on mumsnet some months ago. Possibly about a year ago?

Only4theOlympics Sun 02-Dec-12 20:16:39

Takes more than a bit of paper to make a Mummy and Daddy so I couldn't give a toss what the bit of paper says.

BarbaraBar Sun 02-Dec-12 20:17:44

But marriage does not a mummy/daddy make.

Weissdorn Sun 02-Dec-12 20:17:53

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Chubfuddler Sun 02-Dec-12 20:18:19

Do you honestly think the government is going to force your child to address you as "legal parent A" op?

As a child I thought of my parents as "parent 1" and "parent 2". I would much prefer this to "parent A" and "parent B". Might this be an option?

LaLaGabby Sun 02-Dec-12 20:19:50

It is important to me. Frankly the Judeo-Christian conception of marriage, interpreted strictly, is the only thing keeping my shit together.

As soon as they let the gays marry I am going to quit my job, push DW under a bus, sell the DCs into slavery and the cat for sausages and move to Marrakesh to worship Satan and have sex with ducks.

sittinginthesun Sun 02-Dec-12 20:20:19

Can you imagine "Legal Parent A's Day"?

Sirzy Sun 02-Dec-12 20:20:52

Does it matter what it says on a bit of paper?

We aren't going to have loads of children shouting "legal parent A, Legal parent A" when they want someone to get them out of their cot in a morning!

WiseKneeHair Sun 02-Dec-12 20:21:22

Ah bless.

To answer your question, it won't affect my children or me.
They will still call me idiot Mum and DH Dad.
They, and I, don't care what is written on a form.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Sun 02-Dec-12 20:23:33

If I'm being abolished, does that mean I can abandon Child-type One and Child-type Two and fuck off for a cocktail?

Where do I sign?

OddBoots Sun 02-Dec-12 20:25:04

I'm not sure it would make an ounce of difference, my dc's birth certificate calls me 'mother' and neither of my children have ever called me 'Mother'.

As long as I have parental rights and responsibilities for my children they can call me what they like on documentation - a rose by any other name...

You've posted this in pregnancy, so does this mean it only applies to children born after the law is enacted? I think that may cause some division between siblings born either side.

The law can call me anything it likes if it also allows gay people to marry. And I mean anything.

EmmaNess Sun 02-Dec-12 20:25:49

They're letting GAYS marry?! Like, EACH OTHER?!

Holy fucking arseholes, Batman, what the fuck are we debating the abolition of mums and dads for, when clearly the entire world is about to end.

Obstreperous Sun 02-Dec-12 20:27:31

LaLaGabby grin

icclebabyjesusheave Sun 02-Dec-12 20:27:54

At least Sodding P&G will have to drop their stupid "sponsors of mums" shit. (Yeah P&G, where's my sponsorship money you bastards).

They can be "Sponsors of Legal Parent A and Legal Parent B in a female-female marriage".

LaLaGabby - what are cat sausages like?

EmmaNess Sun 02-Dec-12 20:29:22

icclebaby it also opens up sponsorship opportunities for the parents formerly known as 'dad.' So it's not all bad.

Djembe Sun 02-Dec-12 20:29:36

The 3G in these less salubrious parts of the bus route is pretty patchy.

Really, do people only learn to knit nowadays to be pretentious or is it a genuinely satisfying thing to do?

Do you have a link I can read the next time my reception goes OP?

HoneyDragon Sun 02-Dec-12 20:30:25

Do ducks from outside of Marakesh not let you fuck them?

IllageVidiot Sun 02-Dec-12 20:32:16

LaLaGabby grin

YY BreatheSlowly.

My juvenile humans call me Boss anyway, they'd be thrilled if we were abolished. Come to that, I'd be thrilled, I'd go and indulge in my love of goats (not goat love, that's entirely different). I'd make cheese. I wouldn't do so much washing.

Ah. Where do I sign up?

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Sun 02-Dec-12 20:32:18

Rural ducks are chaste ducks, Honey.

noblegiraffe Sun 02-Dec-12 20:34:18

On other forms you might be 'main contact' or 'primary carer' in relation to your child. I don't think that is particularly psychologically damaging, nor does it detract from the fact that you were also the person who gave birth to them.

SoulTrain Sun 02-Dec-12 20:44:47

I like it, it'll add an air of mystery to me DS will refer to me as Mrs Parent A, except on high days and holidays when I shall allow him to address me as "A."

Like old Judie D in Bond.

HoneyDragon Sun 02-Dec-12 20:46:28

I'm rural. Our ducks are randy buggers! They are slways at it, and the geese. They let the Llamas watch them too, the perverts.

kfca Sun 02-Dec-12 20:49:19

No, not all mothers are married, but this law isn't just about marriage, it affects all mothers and fathers.

@Noblegiraffe - you say 'nor does it detract from the fact that you were the person who gave birth to them' - where's the proof if you're not recognised as the mother? Seriously!?!

I currently have 3 kids and they're precious to me, and being recognised as their mum means a lot to me. It's on their birth certificates and school forms etc. Why should I become a mere 'legal parent' of my own flesh and blood all of a sudden? They weren't adopted. So I mind this, a lot. I think we all should.

Just google the Governments' consultation brief on the re-definition of marriage if you want to see the terms proposed.

ArtexDonkey Sun 02-Dec-12 20:51:43

Op? Opeeeeeeeeee eeeee?

I like to think that I would be just as much a mum to DD if she were adopted.

As for proof that I am her mum - I can show you the scars if you like.

ArtexDonkey Sun 02-Dec-12 20:52:56

X posts

I don't think legal parent A will need proof that she gave birth to the children since she is the one with a fanny and all.

Chubfuddler Sun 02-Dec-12 20:56:00

I can't see any difference between the word mother and parent in status terms. One is gender specific and the other isn't. That's all. I can't see one as superior to the other.

Bluestocking Sun 02-Dec-12 20:56:32

Do you mean the Government Equalities Office Equal civil marriage: a consultation, published in March 2012? Because if you do, I can't find anything about parents in it.

noblegiraffe Sun 02-Dec-12 20:56:33

How do you know that the man named on the form as 'Father' is actually the person from whom the sperm originated? Legal recognition of that doesn't make it true, just like not calling you 'Mother' doesn't mean that it's not true. And there are people out there who call women 'mum' who didn't give birth to them, and would say that they are more than a mother to them than the person who did give birth.

DNA gives the birth facts, 'Mother' is simply a label.

GalaxyDisaster Sun 02-Dec-12 20:58:20

I found that too Bluestocking and can't see anything either.

kfca Sun 02-Dec-12 20:59:11

No but a few years down the line, if you split up with legal parent b, and he meets legal parent c or d or e, it might get very messy, and legal parent A might not have the same sort of rights she currently enjoys, as pass the parcel begins.

What about this consultation paper from August 2012 - is that what you are referring to? I can't find any mention of "Parent A" or "Mother" in the document.

GalaxyDisaster Sun 02-Dec-12 21:00:32

Eh, what on earth are you talking about? Pass the parcel? Parent C? Have you been at the wine?

RoffleCopter Sun 02-Dec-12 21:00:47

I am crying laughing at this thread.

And I say that as a legal parent A

GalaxyDisaster Sun 02-Dec-12 21:01:31

Breath - there is one mention of mother. I word searched it. Civil partnership forms contain details of your mother, whereas marriage certificates just have your father. Nice little feminist point for civil partnerships smile

EmmaNess Sun 02-Dec-12 21:01:31

Firstly I think your last post is pretty insulting to adoptive parents and adopted parents, and their children.

Secondly, you are making a mountain out of a molehill. Wording of the law doesn't stop you being a mum, or a dad, or however you choose to define yourself. No one is banning Mothers' Day. Or Parent A/B's Day, obviously it will need rebranding, and Sugar Puffs will have to rethink their slogan....

And how does a step parent suddenly become a 'legal' parent?

Calm down, it's nearly Christmas.....oh hang on. Who is Jesus now the son of, Parent A and Deity B?

You're right, OP, this is massively problematic for everyone. How will I sleep tonight? How the fuck are grandparents, aunts and uncles going to be defined? This is a administrative nightmare. Where the fuck is Jim Hacker when you need him?

RoffleCopter Sun 02-Dec-12 21:01:51

Parent E sounds like the most fun.

party popper

"Why should I become a mere 'legal parent' of my own flesh and blood all of a sudden? They weren't adopted."
WTAF? Do you think an adoptive parent is some how less of a parent because they don't share DNA with their child? I really hope I've misunderstood you there.

Djembe Sun 02-Dec-12 21:02:15

Do you mean this consultation on civil marriage ? if so, under 'issues that will not be affected' it says 'parenting rights'. hmm

Wait a minute...we're getting abolished?

Yeah baby, now I can dump the kids on someone else and go on a round the world cruise!!

No...wait, you mean on legal stuff, where mum/dad is never used, mother/father is rarely used and it's normally parent/guardian.

I couldn't give 2 shiny shits it they changed that to 'legal parent A/B'

And I'm not sure what tevance it has to proving you gave birth to them? If u wanted proof u could video it!

EmmaNess Sun 02-Dec-12 21:02:34

sorry, last but one post

Chubfuddler Sun 02-Dec-12 21:02:52

So this imaginary bill gives automatic parental responsibility to step parents too does it? I find that hard to believe.

Sirzy Sun 02-Dec-12 21:03:04

Perhaps we need tighter restrictions then

Parents A and B - get full rights

Parents C - F - Get part rights

Parents G - M - Get once a month visits

Parents N - Z - get no rights?

FredFredGeorge Sun 02-Dec-12 21:03:12

kfca you'll have to do better I'm afraid - there's a lot of Anti-same sex marriage sites using the fact that Canadian laws which refer to "natural parent" in them switched to using "legal parent". But that's nothing to do with the UK, nothing to do with what you would be known as on a birth certificate or elsewhere even if you were Canadian.

Equally, in the UK since 2008 two Lesbian parents are known as "Mother" and "Parent" on a birth certificate where it's appropriate. It's very unlikely that any change be made in the future as this already meets the needs.

Tevance?! Wtaf? Relevance!

Djembe Sun 02-Dec-12 21:03:22

Haha blue and breathe are quicker googlers than me dammit .

Or are you talking about this response which does mention "Parent A", but is published by coalition for marriage which Wikipedia describes as a Christian campaign group which opposes UK government proposals to allow civil marriages for same-sex couples - so probably a slightly biased source.

missymoomoomee Sun 02-Dec-12 21:06:24

I am the Mother of my children, whether on a birth certificate its called Legal Parent A or whatever make absolutely no odds to me, it won't make any odds to you either.

The people who it will make a difference to are the ones who would be effected by this, in a positive way.

On my wedding certificate it doesn't state Wife and Husband where we signed the document, but thats what DH and I are to each other.

FoxyRevenger Sun 02-Dec-12 21:06:26

Roffle grin

noblegiraffe Sun 02-Dec-12 21:07:20

I think to worry that the birth mother would have to give up her baby to Legal Parent D simply because they would sound a bit similar on a form is a rather hilarious attempt at a 'thin end of the wedge' argument.

Like, if gays marry, then what will stop paedos from adopting?

I want to be parent X and have an air of mystery about me.

missymoomoomee Sun 02-Dec-12 21:12:00

I think I would like to be Legal Parent 007, fuck this letters shit. grin

tethersend Sun 02-Dec-12 21:14:10

Parent d), all of the above.

RachelWalsh Sun 02-Dec-12 21:14:35

This reminds me of the not as good as the first one sequel to the cat in the hat...

He helps me a lot, this is Little Cat A.
And then Little Cat A took the hat off his head.
“It is good I have someone to help me,” he said.
“This is Little Cat B and I keep him about,
and when I need help then I let him out

Selim Sun 02-Dec-12 21:14:38

I can't recall filling out a document which stated 'mother' rather than 'parent/guardian' and I've got loads of kids that all come with a lot of paperwork (they are clumsy and sporty which involves a lot of forms).

They could legally change my name to cuntychops if it meant that I didn't have to live in a society where my children are taught that some of us are weeds and some of us are flowers and they should turn their faces to the sun and ignore the screams of others who are ripped up by the roots. I've had a glass of wine.

I want equality but I can't have it until we all have it.

HoneyDragon Sun 02-Dec-12 21:15:46

But school forms and the like don't have Mother and Father.
They ask for emergency contacts and guardians

and then you fill in what your relationship to the child is.

So you can still put Mother, Mum, Mummy, Parent A, Senior Duck Fucker or whatever takes your fancy.

Nothing about this will affect you.

MrsDeVere Sun 02-Dec-12 21:15:50

I tried to post this before and MN blew up. I didnt think it was that explosive.
Anyway I will try again,

Would you mind explaining the issue to me, preferably using bullet points.
I am confused and would like to try and understand why you are so upset.

Thank you smile

EmmaNess Sun 02-Dec-12 21:16:34

breatheslowly I think that category is reserved for mutants

do you have x ray vision or can you blast things to dust with your eyes or have massive sideburns and knives shooting out of your knuckles?

kfca Sun 02-Dec-12 21:16:44

Re: adoptive parents, sadly, very very few children are adopted in the UK, and most are older children. The very, very, vast majority are born to and remain with their own natural 'mother', at least in the early years. I guess you lot never really appreciated your own mothers very much, or considered how your babies may appreciate having a mummy :/

Best wishes with your pregnancies.

Selim Sun 02-Dec-12 21:16:52

Legal parent D is quite welcome to wash 9 swimming towels a week if he/she wishes too. I think its unlikely And legal child A won't eat potatoes and legal child B only eats potatoes. can't wait for legal parent C to start cooking.

RoffleCopter Sun 02-Dec-12 21:17:09

Legal Parent ROBOTS.

Selim Sun 02-Dec-12 21:18:18

I appreciate both my mothers, thanks.

Bluestocking Sun 02-Dec-12 21:18:26

OP, does your nickname stand for Kentucky Fried Chicken Addict? If so, you might want to consider cutting down - some of those additives can really fry your synapses.

RoffleCopter Sun 02-Dec-12 21:18:46

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

noblegiraffe Sun 02-Dec-12 21:20:26

I'm pretty sure my baby will still have a mummy. I don't think the police will be around my house if she calls me that.

GalaxyDisaster Sun 02-Dec-12 21:20:38

Pregnancies? Most of us on here aren't pregnant you know?!

And it's nothing to do with appreciating a parent.

I think you need to explain yourself a bit better, because you are making no sense.

I have massive sideburns, is that enough?

Sirzy Sun 02-Dec-12 21:22:09

I guess you lot never really appreciated your own mothers very much, or considered how your babies may appreciate having a mummy :/

I appreciate my mother a hell of a lot, but the name that she has on a form doesn't change that. On some forms she is down as my next of kin but I still generally call her mum "next of kin" is too much of a mouthful for normal day to day use!

I appreciate my mother enormously, but that hasn't stopped me from genuinely thinking of her as "Parent 1" quite a lot of the time.

RoffleCopter Sun 02-Dec-12 21:23:41

Noble giraffe - that's where you're wrong. When the new law comes in it will lead to the abolition of mummies. And I for one, welcome the new dark overlord's regime.

EmmaNess Sun 02-Dec-12 21:23:46

Ah, so adopters/adopted children don't count because they're a minority, and those of us confused and in disagreement are so because we're beyatches who hated our mummies and don't care about our wee babbies?

OR, maybe you don't like being disagreed with.

PandaWatch Sun 02-Dec-12 21:23:50

OP you seemed to be concerned that there are plans afoot to create some sort of parenting collective where numerous randoms end up with equal parenting rights to the child's parents - is that right?

Valpollicella Sun 02-Dec-12 21:24:51

Actually just snorted wine out at Senior Duck Fucker HoneyDragon

EmmaNess Sun 02-Dec-12 21:25:45

breatheslowly I'm not sure - as well as the facial hair you may also need another freakish power. Freakish power B, we'll call it.

MrsDeVere Sun 02-Dec-12 21:25:49

Please, I am dying to join in but I just do not understand what you are talking about.

I thought heterosexual couples couldn't have civil partnerships?
When we will be known as Legal Parent A?

Please explain.

highlove Sun 02-Dec-12 21:27:40

It's not fair. First I find I can't have kids. And now I suppose that means I won't even get to be abolished like the rest of you. You legal parent As have it all you know.

Seriously OP, you are making no sense at all and aren't really coming across all that positively, IMHO.

Emma - as far as I am aware I just have the sideburns. They are luxuriant, but my only superpower. Perhaps I will be "Parent M" instead if I can't be Parent X and when asked say "M is for mummy, ha take that you mad liberals".

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Sun 02-Dec-12 21:29:38

How about NOK A and NOK B, short for next of kin?

noblegiraffe Sun 02-Dec-12 21:33:41

I'm not being a Knocker.

EmmaNess Sun 02-Dec-12 21:35:41

Ah, I think you've run into another problem breatheslowly. Parent M is the boss of secret agent parents. On the other hand, perhaps this will gain you fear and respec' in the playground, and Daniel Craig will appear in your bedroom.

It's a fucking minefield. This simply hasn't been thought through. Maybe a series of initials would tick all the non-gender specific boxes.

Thank you, OP, and your curious yet ironic quartet of letters for a nickname, I won't sleep tonight.

FrequentFlyerRandomDent Sun 02-Dec-12 21:35:57

I have been called "Parent of DC" in every letter from the NHS pertaining to any of my DCs for the last six years.

I would prefer they address me as Random really.

I'll tell DD that I am to be called Parent M from now on, whether it becomes law or not. I need Daniel Craig in my bedroom.

kfca Sun 02-Dec-12 21:42:36

Get the feeling you lot would love to adopt your offspring, (and I think every baby ideally deserves a mum and dad, (all the evidence points to that), so I'm massively in favour of adoption, and think those parents are real heroes).

Your questions will be answered soon as this proposed legislation will be debated shortly in Parliament, and it isn't just about marriage, it affects everyone, so please pay attention...

IllageVidiot Sun 02-Dec-12 21:42:52

I would like to be Q - then I could get to blow a lot of shit up.

I would try being a knocker, but only if it paid well.

I want to 'right on' with Selim in a proper and sincere way, like with a raised fist and everything...I did it a little bit but looked like a right Wombat. But +1000 to that.

Otherwise...what the actual is going on? I have no idea what I'm meant to be worried about really but have found the OP's later views repugnant.
I had a takeaway tonight and it came with the worst bottle of free meths you can imagine. So I drank it. This still doesn't make sense to me.

Sirzy Sun 02-Dec-12 21:43:33

I'm still not sure what I am supposed to be paying attention to.

I think you have got yourself rather confused over a non issue!

EmmaNess Sun 02-Dec-12 21:43:49

An excellent result, breatheslowly.

I think we can conclude this Parent [initial] business is a marvellous idea, especially if Daniel Craig appears.

GalaxyDisaster Sun 02-Dec-12 21:44:09

You are making absolutely zero sense I'm afraid love.

Devora Sun 02-Dec-12 21:44:50

What's this about, OP? Is it official forms that recognise that some of our children have two mummies (mine, for example)? In which case, fantastic news and it's really tiresome that officialdom so long hasn't recognised that. For example, although we are both legally dd2's parents (not dd1's, sadly - the law doesn't recognise their relationship) it's only this year I think that passports have started allowing for us both to be on her passport.

Oh, and as an adoptive mother I do take exception to your suggestion that my relationship to my adopted child is somehow of a lesser order. I am fully and equally a mother to both my birth child and my adopted child.

Chubfuddler Sun 02-Dec-12 21:44:54

Why would I want to adopt my own offspring? How on earth can anyone get that from this thread?

Hold on a sec, I am Parent M. You can all get your own letters, I had M first. And I am certainly not sharing Daniel Craig.

DualFuel Sun 02-Dec-12 21:46:41

"Re: adoptive parents, sadly, very very few children are adopted in the UK, and most are older children. The very, very, vast majority are born to and remain with their own natural 'mother', at least in the early years. I guess you lot never really appreciated your own mothers very much, or considered how your babies may appreciate having a mummy "

wt actual f? hmm

ValPolliandtheIvy Sun 02-Dec-12 21:46:46

Can you imagine when babies start babbling and 'mumumuma'ing, the insane effort it will take to re-educate them and say 'NO! Not mumumuma. Nok-a! Nok-A!'

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Sun 02-Dec-12 21:47:04

But illage, what if you weren't Nice-Q from James bond but Smug-Q from Star Trek:TNG?

This issue is fraught. Fraught, I tell you.

(OP, although you have posted in Pregnancy, most of us are nt currently pregnant, just attracted by your daft title)

Sirzy Sun 02-Dec-12 21:47:49

I think Devora has somehow managed to post a sensible comment on the OPs ramblings, I really do hope KFCA bothers to read that and realise how while for most of us this won't change a thing for families like Devoras it will make things much easier.

ValPolliandtheIvy Sun 02-Dec-12 21:48:13

Sorry - EllePeeAye

C'mon little one, EllepeeeeeeeAaaaayyyye. Not so hard. Stop saying mumumuma and dadada


ArtexDonkey Sun 02-Dec-12 21:48:28

I'm roffling at rofflecopter on this thread grin

I don't need to adopt my dcs. They're my dcs. They have a mum and a dad and gay people getting married won't make the slightest difference to this.

Wtf are you smoking homes?

FivesAndNorks Sun 02-Dec-12 21:49:58

Is it like excel? Do you work your way from a to z and then you have to start on Aa? It'll make learning to read a lot easier - I bet they'll know their letters nice and early

DualFuel Sun 02-Dec-12 21:56:05

This is bonkers but DH and I are now having a debate about how many legally recognised parents a child can have. I don't think that a child could have Legal parent c,d,e,f etc but DH isn't too sure so these are the situations we are debating, let me know if you have any clue which of us is right!

child has parent A (mum) and parent B (dad), the family split up and mum (A) is no longer involved in child's life but crucially does not surrender parental rights.
Dad (B) marries and child gains a step mother (parent C).
Can the step mother (C) adopt the child?
If she did, the child would have 3 legally recognised parents, can that happen?
I think it could only happen if mum (A) gave up her parental rights.

Any idea?

MrsDeVere Sun 02-Dec-12 22:00:50

Well fuck me sideways!

I am a HERO no less. A hero for taking on my son.

You DO realise that ^ isn't ^ a compliment don't you? hmm

Like if I were to say 'Bloody Nora kfca I don't know how you manage to put up with those kids of yours. You are a SAINT, a SAINT I tell you.'

FlaminNoraImPregnantPanda Sun 02-Dec-12 22:04:46

Has anyone linked to this law? I can't find any Bill relating to it. All I can find is the government consultation paper, which makes no mention of these particular amendments and a 'Proposed Bill' written by Stonewall which does include them. Which leads me to believe the OP is jumping to conclusions about a currently unwritten Bill based on Stonewall's made up one.

LynetteScavo Sun 02-Dec-12 22:12:08

I don't mind being called "legal parent" as that's what I am.

My DC call me "mummy"

My DSis's DC call her by her first name.

What is important is who get's the final say over where my children go to school/how they have their hair cut and who they want to read them a bed time story.

As long as that's me, I'm happy. (I presume DH feels the same, but he'g gone to bed)

But but but..... what actual practical difference is it supposed to make to me what any stupid piece of paper calls me in relation to my child? I don't care if I'm a parent or a mother. Makes no difference to my practical day-to-day life with my children. And I don't care if I'm natural or legal parent. Don't care if I'm primary carer either, as long as DH also gets to be primary and not secondary. Why are mothers Legal Parent A anyway? Seems a bit sexist. Unless it's purely based on order of appearance in the child's life, like the cast list at the end of a movie.

Slightly more seriously, I'm very confused as to how you've managed to equate us not caring about government form semantics with not caring about our own children. Or why you've posted at all. Is this some kind of long-winded roundabout objections to civil partnerships?

Devora Sun 02-Dec-12 22:14:58

DualFuel - you can only have two parents under the law. So, for example, a lesbian couple who choose to have a child with a male friend cannot both be recognised as mothers if the father's name is on the birth certificate. In fact, they cannot both be recognised as mothers unless the non-biological mother adopts the child. Parenthood cannot be shared three ways.

ladymia Sun 02-Dec-12 22:17:40

actually WISH i had time to worry about things like this! grin

kfca Sun 02-Dec-12 22:19:03

You've read me wrong. My husband would never adopt, but I would. I know a lot of husbands and wives who can't have children and they have ruled out adoption. In my experience the objection tends to be from the man. Hence for a mum and dad to jointly agree to adopt is pretty special.

FlaminNoraImPregnantPanda Sun 02-Dec-12 22:19:28

Yep, I checked out the draft Bills for this Parliamentary session and there are currently none relating to same sex marriage and what parents are called. Sorry folks, you don't get to be abolished yet.



Only4theOlympics Sun 02-Dec-12 22:20:37

Riiiiggght I respect and love my mother enough not to care if it says she is a flying spaghetti monster on my birth certificate. I love my child enough to know I am her mother and not care what anyone else calls me AND I believe that adoptive parents are as much parents as people who have genetic children. And I am the muppet who is wrong.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Sun 02-Dec-12 22:21:49

Dammit Nora!

<cancels cocktail order, checks on children>

kfca - I think you have an agenda that goes beyond the name issue as you said:

" I think every baby ideally deserves a mum and dad, (all the evidence points to that)"

I don't know much about the evidence myself, but I am sure that someone on here will know lots about it.

Sirzy Sun 02-Dec-12 22:24:27

I would say for anyone to adopt is pretty special really, what better gift to give to a child is care than a loving parent or loving parents.

lljkk Sun 02-Dec-12 22:24:34

Plenty of kids don't have as many (involved interested caring) parents as they would like. I would have thought the more the better.

Still don't get the point you're trying to make, OP.

Sirzy Sun 02-Dec-12 22:25:35

All children deserve to be raised in a loving safe environment. The sex of the parent(s), or whether they are the biological parent is irrespective really.

Devora Sun 02-Dec-12 22:27:51

OP, are you saying that your heterosexual status will be diminished by equal civil marriage?

Or are you saying that official forms that record Parent A and Parent B are a denial of what in your belief is the best model of parenthood: mother and father?

Only4theOlympics Sun 02-Dec-12 22:29:41

Oh and just to be wholly up front on where I stand. I would rather my own marriage be refered to as a civil partnership (as the ceremony was held in a registry office as opposed to a religious ceremony) than live with the ridiculous inequality that now exists. Either marriage is marriage, or there is a religious marriage and a civil partnership.

FlaminNoraImPregnantPanda Sun 02-Dec-12 22:32:09

As a practising Christian (and a Catholic one at that) I have to say Only4theOlympics that I agree with your last post wholeheartedly.

Djembe Sun 02-Dec-12 22:34:29

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DualFuel Sun 02-Dec-12 22:36:04

devora Thanks for clearing that up, I win! <goes off to tell DH I was right grin >

MrsDeVere Sun 02-Dec-12 22:39:40

OMG Devora are we all going to catch the gay if they pass this law?

Should I be taking notes or something? Just so I am ready and everything?

MrsGeologist Sun 02-Dec-12 22:41:29

Hmmm... Reading between the bizarre lines, I think OP is particularly bothered by the thought of MAN GAYS raising children because <SHOCK HORROR> they wouldn't have a mother!


Actually, OP makes no sense whatsoever. I've had a bad day, I would like some of whatever the OP is smoking.

Devora Sun 02-Dec-12 22:42:00

That's the top-secret plan, MrsDV. Cameron's got you marked for a bit part in Prisoner Cell Block H.

MrsDeVere Sun 02-Dec-12 22:44:46

Bastard! I look awful in denim angry

MrsMushroom Sun 02-Dec-12 22:45:06

Who gives a shit what it says on some document? A Mother is a Mother and a Father a Father. End of story.

First they decriminalise, then they equalise, the final step is making being gay compulsory. You have been warned! And apologies, this is paraphrasing a very old joke.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Narked Sun 02-Dec-12 22:59:25


noblegiraffe Sun 02-Dec-12 23:00:27

Devora, just out of interest, in the situation where the male friend has a baby with a lesbian couple, and the non-biological mother adopts the baby to become a legal parent, then what becomes of the father? Does he have to renounce any right to the child? If he doesn't, then is the non-biological mother seen as a step-mother to the child?

LaLaGabby Sun 02-Dec-12 23:00:35

One adavantage is that when a new family is started there no longer any need for the usual indecorous wrangling over who gets to be Nana and who has to be Grandma. Grandparental units will simply be referred to as AA, BA, AB and BB.

LucieMay Sun 02-Dec-12 23:02:45

Ds's dad doesn't see him and I have no partner, so I'm the whole fucking alphabet when it comes to parenting!

Can we call LucieMay a hero or does it not fit with the OP's ideologies?

Devora Sun 02-Dec-12 23:18:31

noblegiraffe, the non-biological mother can only adopt the child if the father agrees to sign away his parenthood. Otherwise, the non-biological mother can get a PRO (parental responsibility order? not sure) but she cannot legally become a third parent.

It probably seems a lot of semantics, but it can have real consequences. If I was to die tomorrow, my dd2 (adopted) would go straight on having my dp as her legal mother. But dd1 (who has a loving involved father, but whose primary parents are and have always been me and my dp) has no legal relationship to my dp and it would be absolutely down to her father what happened to her.

I think the strongest argument that my dp could use in that situation would be about not splitting up siblings, because of course the law recognises the relationship between the children.

I recognise it's a complicated issue, but I do think it's a shame that the law doesn't recognise the reality that some children DO have three parents. Or even four. We always wanted for our dd to have a father and to have a close and loving relationship with him (and he is a great dad, so I can't regret it) but it is a nonsense that there is no legal recognition for a parent who was there at her conception, at her birth, who has changed her nappies and walked up and down with her through the night and picks her up from school every day. The law recognises as a couple in terms of assessing us for tax, benefits etc. It recognises us as a couple for the purposes of adoption. But it won't recognise us both as parents unless my dd's father agrees to renounce his fatherhood of her (which of course he wouldn't do, and we wouldn't ask).

Sorry, that was a longwinded answer to a simple question!

kfca Sun 02-Dec-12 23:20:35

There is irrefutable evidence that children are best raised by their own mother and a father. Even people like Richard Dawkins assert that biological parents have a particularly vested interest in their own offspring (see the selfish gene etc).

I don't know one parent who doesn't object to these changes (although most are far too scared to say so, what with the PC-lobby being so vitriolic and calling us homophobic, which is ridiculous). Our views count too. This issue isn't really about gay people - they all have biological mums and dads too, or didn't you know.

BTW - Very few children are adopted into stranger families, a few hundred a year are adopted from the Adoption register. (I only know 5 who were adopted as children, and all have agreed that while they love their adopted mums and dads, it's definitely not the same (for them, as opposed to for the adopted parents). So this is a serious question - has any serious survey of adults adopted as children ever been carried out.

kfca Sun 02-Dec-12 23:22:46

Oops, I mean, "There is irrefutable evidence that children are best raised by their own mother and father"

RudolphGnu Sun 02-Dec-12 23:25:39

Are you going to give us a link OP?

The world is ending in a few weeks anyway, nae bother. wink

Nope, still don't understand your point. Should all children who don't have a mother and father (sorry, Legal Parent A and Legal Parent B) be assigned the missing Legal Parent immediately?

And WTAF does adoption have to do with it?

I remain baffled as to what you're actually trying to say. Honestly and truly. What changes do you object to, and why do you care if it doesn't affect you and your children?

Some parents are men. Some parents are women. Some parents are shit. Some parents are gay. Some parents are good. Some parents are straight. Some parents are abusive. Some parents are lone. Some parents are married. Some parents are in a partnership. Some parents are racist. Some parents are homophobic. I imagine there is little correlation between any of these states of parental being. Most parents do the best they can by their children, however they came by them and whoever they share their bed with.

I'm a parent that doesn't object (if they are actually going to change things at all and it isn't just the stirrings of pressure groups). The law may call my relationship to DD whatever it likes as our relationship is secure enough not to be damaged by the legal term for it.

Your views do count. If you don't like the idea of gay marriage then don't marry someone of the same sex.

Devora Sun 02-Dec-12 23:30:47

Your post is so offensive I hardly know where to begin. What exactly is your expertise on adoption, that allows you to tell me that I have more vested in my biological dc than my adopted dc? And allows you to state as fact that "while they love their adopted mums and dads, it's definitely not the same"?

Adoption into stranger families is not THAT rare - there's quite a few of us here on MN, you know. Some of us even adopted babies, which you seem to think never happens. And while I would agree that adoption is not ideal, it's not for the reasons you think. My adopted child is a fantastic kid; I could not love her anymore if she had exited out of one of my bodily orifices. Because I love her, I would have preferred that she had not had to be separated from her birth family, preferred her never to suffer the trauma around her early life, or to face the issues she will need to process later. But my love for her - and hers for me - is NOT second rate. How dare you say it is.

And as for 'these changes' - you still haven't defined exactly what you're talking about, or linked to any evidence, so I for one am not sure what exactly you are objecting to.

Only4theOlympics Sun 02-Dec-12 23:31:32

I am a parent and I don't object. So you do know parents who don't object. Maybe you are just mixing with the wrong people in rl.

What I DO object to is your attitude to adoption. I bloody dare you to come and tell my family that the adopted children in it aren't real or proper family and don't count because they are a minority. You wouldn't be repeating that utter tripe in a hurry.

I expect there's also irrefutable evidence that children do best if they are a boy raised by upper-middle class Westerns white heterosexual married parents, with a private education and at least one university degree.

What shall we do with the other 90-odd% of the world population who don't fit the criteria though?

Your argument is completely illogical - you can't force all the world's children into a set of ideal circumstances. And there are many millions of children in the world who are being raised by a mother and a father in abject misery and poverty, while children of Western homosexuals are doing very comfortably indeed. It's all relative and pointless to compare one child's circumstances with another.

FlaminNoraImPregnantPanda Sun 02-Dec-12 23:32:38

There is irrefutable evidence that children are best raised by their own mother and father

Prove it.

Narked Sun 02-Dec-12 23:33:19

I don't know one parent who doesn't object to these changes


While you are linking to the proposed legislation, could you also pop a few links down for your irrefutable evidence as irrefutable evidence is really rare in the social sciences so I would be very interested in seeing it.

FlaminNoraImPregnantPanda Sun 02-Dec-12 23:36:36

I don't know one parent who doesn't object to these changes

What changes? You haven't even provided a verifiable source which shows there are any changes yet. confused

exexpat Sun 02-Dec-12 23:36:40

kfca You say "I don't know one parent who doesn't object to these changes".

Well, I think you have just 'met' however many it takes to make 8 pages of a thread, and as far as I can tell no one has agreed with you yet. And as MN is mostly populated by parents, I think that makes rather a lot of us who couldn't care less what we are called on official forms (and yes, I think the majority of us support equal marriage too).

Narked Sun 02-Dec-12 23:36:50

I know a lovely couple who adopted a baby a few months ago. The fact that neither of them has a penis doesn't impair their parenting.

CagneyNLacey Sun 02-Dec-12 23:37:31

Wow op, you seem to be something of an expert in, er, well nothing so far. Go away.

Also, I love whoever wrote 'what you smoking homes?'

FlaminNoraImPregnantPanda Sun 02-Dec-12 23:37:50

How does one link to figments of the imagination breathesslowly?

kfca Sun 02-Dec-12 23:40:43

Well you're out of step with the opinion polls like ComRes etc , so I guess its not a very representative sample.

noblegiraffe Sun 02-Dec-12 23:40:46

Thanks Devora. So at the moment, you couldn't have Legal Parent A, B and C, it seems? If a 3rd parent is on the scene, they couldn't become Legal Parent C, they could only become Legal Parent A or B, by having one of the current legal parents give up the status?

I can see why only being allowed two legal parents makes things more straightforward, but in complicated situations like yours it must be quite difficult to accept, especially in situations involving the death of one parent. I wonder if it would also cause problems in a hospital situation if 'only the parents' or 'close family' were allowed to see a child or sign off on a medical procedure.

Devora Sun 02-Dec-12 23:41:39

OP, I'm guessing that somebody somewhere read something on the Campaign for Christian Marriage website, or the DM, said something about it in the pub, then there was a whole chain of 'chinese' whispers, ending in OP and her mates having a scandalised natter in the park, all "Did you hear? They're abolishing mums and huns!" and the others going, "Noooo!" then racing off to paste it up on Facebook...

So do you have any idea about what the ECM legislation says? Because it may help you to know that they haven't actually published it yet...

Devora Sun 02-Dec-12 23:42:36

That's right, noblegiraffe.

Devora Sun 02-Dec-12 23:43:14

Go on, OP, put us out of our misery. Tell us what it is you are TALKING ABOUT. Where did you get this information?

RudolphGnu Sun 02-Dec-12 23:43:19

I feel like I've stepped in a puddle of crazy...

IllageVidiot Sun 02-Dec-12 23:43:39

What a fab misrepresentation of Dawkins.

All kinds of wrong but I can't move past this bit "while they love their adopted mums and dads, it's definitely not the same"? - How do you know? How do they know? Where is the control study?
My DH and his sister were adopted as babies - they have one experience of childhood and parental love - the one they had with their adoptive parents...so how would they know it wasn't the same. Also the same as what exactly?

And then all the rest of it - there is some evidence (as in there have been studies) but it is far from irrefutable. And I don't object in the least, so there you've met plenty of parents that don't agree with you now.

Not entirely certain still what I'm not agreeing with in ti's entirety as it seems to shift about a bit. It is not explicit as it seems based on fabrication and a general dislike of 'the gay'.

Devora Sun 02-Dec-12 23:43:44

grin at Gnu

WTF is ComRes?

So you are referring to this poll which was undertaken on behalf of (funded by) the Coalition for Marriage, an anti gay marriage group. The questions in the survey were sufficiently leading that the results are meaningless.

IllageVidiot Sun 02-Dec-12 23:47:29

ComRes is a market research company Annie.

Okay, I've found ComRes. So what opinions am I looking for? Opinion on gay marriage? Opinion on adoption? Opinion on change of legal terms for parents? As many of us are saying, we're still not sure what you're actually taking about.

Narked Sun 02-Dec-12 23:49:08


Alex Salmond will want their number ...

FlaminNoraImPregnantPanda Sun 02-Dec-12 23:50:06

Are you perchance doing a bit of refuting there breatheslowly? hmm

Weissdorn Sun 02-Dec-12 23:52:17

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

exexpat Sun 02-Dec-12 23:53:33

kfca No, the ComRes opinion poll on marriage a) didn't actually ask about gay marriage but then claimed it showed people were opposed to it, and b) was out of step with pretty much every other poll in the past 5 years, which have shown 40-60+% in favour of marriage equality, and a distinct minority (less than 20%) actively opposed to it.

I'm afraid you are on a hiding to nothing with your 'arguments' here - the majority of sane, rational people in the UK do not agree with you and the small handful of religious bigots you seem to share your opinions with.

This seems to be an interesting piece of analysis here. It is a bit late for me to read it all though.

Weissdorn - that always comes to mind. I once tried to use that clip as a teaching aide for questionnaire methods and I think my class were very confused.

ChippingInLovesAutumn Sun 02-Dec-12 23:58:53

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MMMarmite Mon 03-Dec-12 00:04:37

Breatheslowly: That survey contains wonderfully leading questions. As much as I hate their agenda, I am impressed by their survey writing skills.

"Since gay and lesbian couples have the same rights as married couples available to them under civil partnership, they should not be allowed to redefine marriage for everyone else." Put like that, it sounds almost reasonable. Poor straight people, we are so greedy, wanting to redefine all their marriages. We should cease this equality nonsense forthwith.

I love that you have decided that we aren't a representative sample and your dodgy research and anecdotal evidence is superior.

To not know one parent who doesn't object to these nebulous statements suggests that you don't mix with a very diverse bunch.

MMMarmite Mon 03-Dec-12 00:10:32

The best ones are "Do you agree that marriage is between a man and a woman?" Well, yes, I agree; it is. I can't fail to be aware of that awkward fact, having filled out an entire consultation calling on the government to change it. Doesn't mean I think it should be.

cynnerthenaughtyreindeer Mon 03-Dec-12 00:11:08

I for one would not mind...am sick of hearing all four of my children shriek MUUUUUUUUUMMMMYYYYYYYYYYY! From two floors away. Think hearing them howl LEEEEGAAAALLL PAREEEEEENT AAAAAAAAA would make things a bit more interesting..

piprabbit Mon 03-Dec-12 00:15:54

My DD has started calling me Mama - like a child in an upper-class Victorian novel. I have no idea why and it is rather embarrassing for me.

My DS has started calling me Pooface. We're going through a tricky phase where toilet humour coupled to a need to challenge authority means that Pooface is the wittiest thing in the whole wide world.

I don't think anyone will be able to get them to call me Parent A unless my DCs really, really want to.

cynnerthenaughtyreindeer Mon 03-Dec-12 00:17:51

Ohhh..God Pip! My little miss has taken to calling her father poopoohead...must be the age..

piprabbit Mon 03-Dec-12 00:19:08

cynner, thank you for telling me that. I feel a tiny bit better now, knowing I am not the only Poo Parent.

Devora Mon 03-Dec-12 00:19:09

Poopoo Fartface in this house...

cynnerthenaughtyreindeer Mon 03-Dec-12 00:21:36

oh no! I am happy to hear from you! I die just a little when she shouts " POOPOO HEAD! WHERE ARE YOU" in asda...

cynnerthenaughtyreindeer Mon 03-Dec-12 00:22:23

<snickers> Devora, I am sure it is said with love..

piprabbit Mon 03-Dec-12 00:25:59

I bet he was hiding in the Baked Good aisle pretending not to be with either of you grin. I am literally snorting with laugher.

Devora - that's quite a complex construction, you must be very proud grin.

Devora Mon 03-Dec-12 00:28:22

She is indeed gifted, piprabbit. Just not necessarily in the ways a mother would wish for.

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cynnerthenaughtyreindeer Mon 03-Dec-12 00:36:48

sighs in admiration SP you always know when to call a cunt a cunt..
I also wish Legal Child D would stop slapping my arse and asking "ohhhhh mummy when will I get a wiggly bum like yours?"

exexpat Mon 03-Dec-12 00:37:31

(bit late now, but I only came on this thread to do a #pedantscorner post to educate the OP on the correct use of effect and affect - but I doubt she/he would accept anyone's word on that either)

RiaUnderTheMistletoe Mon 03-Dec-12 01:29:48

I clicked on the thread expecting to hear that all babies would now be grown in glass beakers and raised by officials in white coats. 'Legal Parent A' seems a bit of a non-issue in comparison.

leelteloo Mon 03-Dec-12 02:26:54

I am going to insist dd calls me "legal poopoopants A" from now on and that she refers to her father as "Legal weeweehead B" and some official gravitas to the toilet humour name calling.

leelteloo Mon 03-Dec-12 02:31:58

On a more serious note: who do you think is more deserving of the title mum op? Is it a) the birth mother of 6 week old baby who beat the her so badly around the head that she now has profound learning difficulties or is it b) the woman who adopted her and loves her, provides for her and protects her from all harm????

EmpressOfTheNorthPole Mon 03-Dec-12 02:52:56

There was a very similar thread a month or so ago from someone called Dopish and as a non-biological lesbian mum, I got fairly worked up on it.

This time, I'm going to reminisce about a Pride march I was on around 10 years ago. There was a twat standing there with a placard saying something like GAY'S WILL ROT IN HELL.

Well, obviously I couldn't let that pass. I walked straight up to him to put him right.

As he realised I was heading for him, he drew himself up, clearly ready for an argument and I said...

"That apostrophe's wrong."

He didn't say a lot after that.

Kfca, the apostrophes in your second post are wrong.

I'm going back to the Puddle before I start getting annoyed with you.

Caladria Mon 03-Dec-12 06:19:32

@Empress, I think I love you.

Goodness that ComRes poll was bad.

Well I have sat and read all 10 pages, hoping I had not missed the crucial legislation that explains how my status on a form would change my parental rights, and low and behold it appears to be the figment of an extremist imagination.

So to conclude, I don't care! I am parent A, DH may feel a bit peeved that he has been down graded to parent B, but he probably wouldn't notice.

I have however wondered how same sex couples complete things like birth certificates, so parent A and B as aposed to mother and father would reduce that complication I imagine (please correct me if I am wrong on this, I am ignorant when it comes to completing parent paper work, PFB has not yet arrived!)

kfca Mon 03-Dec-12 08:07:57

The issue is that as same-sex couples can't have their own babies, the >99%of couples who can would be reduced in law to the same status as adopted parents, and many like me are deeply, deeply, deeply unhappy about that (regardless of what colour, sex or sexual orientation our children are).

This has been really helpful for me, especially from those who say they would rather have civil partnerships open to all, (and leave marriage to us throwbacks). Cheers, feel much happier.

I'm off to a thread about dyslexia now, to see if I can find a remedy for myself.

Sirzy Mon 03-Dec-12 08:15:56

Why does it effect you that all parents have the same status irrespective of who gave birth to the child?

A parent is a parent and should have the same rights no matter what the family set up is.

Nothing will change for you, a lot will change for families which have set ups out of the 'norm' and those changes will be very positive.

Strange how you keep on claiming so many people agree with you yet I haven't seen one person come close to supporting your rants.

I will ask again, but I'm not holding out much hope, and evidence to show that mums and dads are being abolished?

Lesbeadiva Mon 03-Dec-12 08:25:42

"The issue is that as same-sex couples can't have their own babies" shit!!!i have two children and am in a same sex civil partnership! Are they alien babies???

As it is the law is thus. A child conceived in a civil partnership after April 2009 is considered to have two legal parents.

My partner had to adopt our children as they were concieved prior to 2009. Their new birth certs say mother/parent and father/parent <insert name>

I think any new legislation won't take anything away from any parent. A parent is a parent. Whether you call yourself mum/mamma/bawbag...well that's up to you isn't it. You will still be a legal parent and probably a bawbag

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Mon 03-Dec-12 08:28:10

REDUCED in law to those of adoptive parents?


Same sex couples can have their own babies. Maybe not biologically with their partner (please correct me if in-vitro might fix that), but they can have children. HTH.

MrsDeVere Mon 03-Dec-12 08:29:50

Poor, poor, poor you
Having to be bought down to the level of us 2nd rate adoptive parents.

And oh the irony of you lecturing adoptive parents on how the biological parents of our kids have some sort of biological imperative that makes them want to look after them better.

You do realise why children are removed from thses parents don't you?

Keep your weasly words about heroic adoptive parents to yourself you nasty little creature.

I have come across homophobia like this before (though mostly on the internet), but what amazes me, kfca, is your sustained attack on adoptive parents. Do you really think that you will find support for that stance here?

I am more than happy to have the same status as adoptive parents as I don't see that status as any different to the status I currently have as one of DD's parents.

Ah, suddenly it is all clear.

Homophobic nutters clutching at straws to find reasons to be against gay marriage.

Just get over it.

Do you know what matters most? It isn't what a parent is legally referred to as. It isn't who is doing the parenting. It is whether the children are well looked after and loved.

Changing a legal term will not affect you.
Other people getting married will not affect you.
Children being brought up by same-sex parents will not affect you.

And what's more, none of these things are dangerous in any way.

Don't like gay marriage? Don't do it then.
Want children to have a mum & dad? So do it.
Want to refer to yourself a mum? Do it.

Leave everyone else alone

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Lilka Mon 03-Dec-12 08:46:28

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Lilka Mon 03-Dec-12 08:47:36

And by the way, there are several thousand 'stranger' adoptions a year. Not a couple of fucking hundred

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EmpressOfTheNorthPole Mon 03-Dec-12 09:13:20

Fanjo, rewrite and repost that NOW or when it gets deleted it will be gone. Put `Your posts make you sound like a cunt, a first class nutter and a dickhead who should fuck off' and you should be ok.

prettybird Mon 03-Dec-12 09:19:14

This thread would be hilarious if the OP's views weren't so offensive misguided.

However he/she has had the perhaps unintended effect (note the correct usage wink) of making hope that any legislation ensuring that family units that are different from the "norm" hmm are protected and clarified in the law is brought forward grin

The fact that there are intolerant horrible misguided people like the OP just proves how necessary legislation is. smile

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

BoulevardOfBrokenSleep Mon 03-Dec-12 09:28:05

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

MrsGeologist Mon 03-Dec-12 09:36:38

Any suggestion that my parents are somehow lesser because they aren't my biological patents, will result in a kick in the arse from me.

I don't miss, or really give two fucking hoots about my biological parents. They aren't my parents. My parents are the couple who parented me, who put the effort in and who have been there for me for the past 26 years, and who continue to be there for me.

MrsGeologist Mon 03-Dec-12 09:39:52

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Only4theOlympics Mon 03-Dec-12 09:48:13

There is little I could write at this point which wouldn't end up with me being deleted so I will just wander off now I think. mutters about how offensive it is to use the phrase REDUCED to the status of adoptive parent and the irony that if I said what I wanted it would result in my deletion

noblegiraffe Mon 03-Dec-12 09:53:38

It seems from what has been said that adoptive parents have the same rights and status as biological parents whose children haven't been adopted by other people anyway.

This is perfectly reasonable. I don't feel my status is reduced because other people can apply for the same status in different circumstances. They're not suddenly going to be applying to adopt my DS (even though they must surely want to as he is lovely, he is still legally mine) so it's not taking anything from me.

ChippingInLovesAutumn Mon 03-Dec-12 10:03:19

The issue is that as same-sex couples can't have their own babies, the >99%of couples who can would be reduced in law to the same status as adopted parents, and many like me are deeply, deeply, deeply unhappy about that (regardless of what colour, sex or sexual orientation our children are)

Jesus wept, just when you think you've heard it all. Reduced to the same status as adopted parents????

Though you have to laugh, I don't know any parents that have been adopted. Most people adopt babies or children.

prettybird Mon 03-Dec-12 10:06:19

I think what I find really sad is that there are still people around who are as bigotted and prejudiced as kfca appears to be. But I suppose I should really feel sorry for him/her - to have to live in such a narrow minded bubble.

What makes me smile is that, when asked the straight question (no pun intended!), 64% of Scots agreed that "same-sex couples should have the right to get married". I'm glad I live in a country that is tolerant of other people's choices. smile

HECTheHallsWithRowsAndFolly Mon 03-Dec-12 10:12:33

Am I missing the point?

does it matter?

I assume we won't be required to ask out children to stop calling us mum and to call us Legal Parent A instead.

Hello, Legal Parent A (or will it just be A for short?) What's for breakfast?
Toast, Legal Offspring A. Tell Legal Offspring B to brush his teeth


In the home, we'll be mum. At school, at the doctor's - everywhere at all times in our day to day life, we'll be mum. (or dad. or whatever)

It's just on forms and stuff like that?

I honestly don't see the problem.

WithTheDude Mon 03-Dec-12 10:23:55

Actually, there is a lot of evidence that children do better with two lesbian parents.

But, the homophobes get a bit hysterical when that is suggested.

Djembe Mon 03-Dec-12 10:41:18

Why is it, whenever any minority group are given the same rights as the majority, do a few people complain that the majority are being dragged down? It doesn't make any sense. Though it shouldn't surprise us, happened with every rights movement in history.

HoneyDragon Mon 03-Dec-12 10:47:03

Right you lot.

It's advent. This usually means an increase in really stupidly out of order Ops. Such as we have seen here.

This does not mean however you have to get yourselves deleted. Can you please get your point across within the guidelines. <<begs>>

Because I swear Justine gets stroppier every year and I really don't want her to follow through on her annal threats to shut down over Xmas "if we don't bloody well behave".

Let utilise this thread to practise our staying within the guidelines skills - then we will be prepared for the rest of the holiday nutters.

HoneyDragon Mon 03-Dec-12 10:48:22

although I am pmsl at in no mood for nobheads

Spero Mon 03-Dec-12 10:49:55

Eh? I don't understand. There is no 'reducing' to level of adoptive parents. The adoption order gives them the same legal status as a biological parent.

Isn't this Legal Parent thing more designed with surrogacy in mind? For eg if your sperm came from an anonymous donor and your mum asked a surrogate to use her egg, you can see it gets potentially a bit confusing to define 'mum' and 'dad'.

I can't believe it needs saying, but the least important part of parenting is whether or not you squeezed one out your own birth canal. Sadly, I think for some people, the only thing they can achieve in life of any note is to have a baby, so they start to get awful twitchy if they think that status is jot being sufficiently lauded.

MrsDeVere Mon 03-Dec-12 10:58:54

I feel really <sad face> <head tilt> for anyone who is reduced to the same level of parenting as me.

"I can't believe it needs saying, but the least important part of parenting is whether or not you squeezed one out your own birth canal. Sadly, I think for some people, the only thing they can achieve in life of any note is to have a baby, so they start to get awful twitchy if they think that status is jot being sufficiently lauded."


I'm glad I don't live in OP's bubble, I'm glad I live in a country that wants to give equal rights, it is the right thing to do.

prettybird Mon 03-Dec-12 11:38:09

I frequently sign school consent forms for ds: I have a different surname to him and they don't ask what my relationship is to him.

Fortunately, they seem to accept that I am his Parent/Guardian/Carer not even sure what the form says grin

Am shockshock and sad that kfca obviously doesn't have enough confidence in his/her own parenting that he/she thinks that some imaginary change in the law will change her status.

My ds knows who I am the bitch that is nagging him to tidy his room smile

Djembe Mon 03-Dec-12 11:46:12

Sorry HoneyDragon too late, I got myself deleted upthread with my eloquent rebuttal of the OP sad

Does Justine really threaten to shut down for Xmas? <fascinated>

Who are we against? I'm all confused, is it the duck fuckers, the same sex parents or the sad <head tilt> but heroic parents who've adopted.

I need to know what to get on the T shirts.

RudolphGnu Mon 03-Dec-12 11:56:24

I am actually gobsmacked at how ill-informed and ridiculous you sound, OP. I can't type any more due to talk guidelines, but see you next Tuesday.

HoneyDragon Mon 03-Dec-12 12:03:18

Djembe - she really does. In the same desperate way we tell the dc's Santa won't come if you don't behave grin, but lets not test her.

I think its probably safe to be against fucking ducks if you are not avian.

RebeccaMumsnet (MNHQ) Mon 03-Dec-12 12:05:36


Right you lot.

It's advent. This usually means an increase in really stupidly out of order Ops. Such as we have seen here.

This does not mean however you have to get yourselves deleted. Can you please get your point across within the guidelines. <<begs>>

Because I swear Justine gets stroppier every year and I really don't want her to follow through on her annal threats to shut down over Xmas "if we don't bloody well behave".

Let utilise this thread to practise our staying within the guidelines skills - then we will be prepared for the rest of the holiday nutters.

<Hands out gold star>

yy, wot Honey said, please do take a look at the Talk guidelines and try and follow them, what with it being the season of Good Will an all.

Many thanks to those who reported, please do keep them coming.

EmpressOfTheNorthPole Mon 03-Dec-12 12:05:45

But SPsFanjo rewrote her post the way Justine TOLD us to do it.

Why was it deleted???????

RebeccaMumsnet (MNHQ) Mon 03-Dec-12 12:19:35


But SPsFanjo rewrote her post the way Justine TOLD us to do it.

Why was it deleted???????

Really? [born yesterday emoticon]

prettybird Mon 03-Dec-12 12:23:24

Phew - managed to avoid being deleted so far - despite the fact that I find the OP's views totally abhorrent and objectionable.

Such homophobia would be laughable if it weren't so dangerous - especially when it veers into prejudice against adopters and adoptees sad Ignorant at best, verging on hate crime at worst.

LoopsInHoops Mon 03-Dec-12 12:27:08

I don't know one parent who doesn't object to these changes Could that be because they had you 'explaining' these 'changes' to them? They probably said yes to whatever you were saying to shut them up.

On a more serious note, and purely for interest, I know a couple who have a baby. they are both women, one carried the baby, but used the other's egg, with donated sperm. Who would parent A and B be?

ouryve Mon 03-Dec-12 12:27:57

Good grief.

Have all the biscuits been eaten, yet? Or are we starting on the slightly dodgy brownies?

EmpressOfTheNorthPole Mon 03-Dec-12 12:29:28

Sorry if I sounded whiney but serious question. On her webchat Justine said it was ok to put 'Your post makes you sound like an arse and here's why.' That's why I told Fanjo to rephrase.

Can you sing, Rebecca?

SledYuleCated Mon 03-Dec-12 12:43:50

Hang on. Lets sort something out...

You say adoptive parents are heroes.

You do not wish to be reduced to the level of an adoptive parent.

Therefore, you consider yourself better than a hero.

HOLY FUCKER DUCKS, YOU MUT BE GOD!! shock In which case you should be aware that State may or may not be carrying the new messiah but only if MN pull their finger out and start singing

EmpressOfTheNorthPole Mon 03-Dec-12 12:47:32

Sled, I knew I liked you.

BoulevardOfBrokenSleep Mon 03-Dec-12 12:50:38

Oh, I got deleted. OK. Shall I try to make my point politely?

There is a very Daily-Mailesque logic to this:

Fact: a minor footnote in new law adjusts the wording of birth certificate from mother/father to parent A/parent B

DM headline: *OMG!!!1!!!!!!! THEY'RE ABOLISHING MUMS AND DADS!!!1!!!!!!!1!!! If you don't agree then YOU DON'T LOVE YOUR KIDS and WANT TO ADOPT THEM!!!!!

<please note, I am not actually accusing the OP of being a DM journalist. Having met a couple, I know they don't actually believe what they write so certainly wouldn't be defending it to the death on MN>
<Is that sufficient to avoid deletion?>

BoulevardOfBrokenSleep Mon 03-Dec-12 12:55:29

Tsk, epic bold fail.

Where did singing come into it? I'm only allowed to sing in the car. By myself. or with DS who can't talk yet to protest sad

HoneyDragon Mon 03-Dec-12 12:57:02

Because rephrasing a previous personal attack as a statement is cheating grin

On a parenting site as diverse as Mnet an opening post and opinion like the ops is is either very very stupid or very very calculated and nasty.

If it is stupid. Than it is likely the op may not see sense and will only focus on the horrible mean mummies insulting them - once your post is deleted you can point out it wasn't actually that offensive and was mostly true.

If it is calculated and nasty than you are giving them a lovely Swiss cheese thread that that can manipulate to their will.

The op is however offensive to non biological parents and gay people. angry and thankfully this sort of attitude is not on, on put up with on Mnet. Nor should it be.

exiledmancityfan Mon 03-Dec-12 12:58:08

ok I'm confused by this thread. I was so engrossed I have just boiled dry the pan I had my expressing stuff in shock my house now smells of melted bottles. I guess that makes me Bad parent z wink

RebeccaMumsnet (MNHQ) Mon 03-Dec-12 13:00:31


Sorry if I sounded whiney but serious question. On her webchat Justine said it was ok to put 'Your post makes you sound like an arse and here's why.' That's why I told Fanjo to rephrase.

Can you sing, Rebecca?

<clears throat> erm, my singing is fabulous after lots of wine

YY, Justine did say that, however, Fanjo's post did not just say 'Your posts makes you sound like...' it clearly overstepped the line.

EmpressOfTheNorthPole Mon 03-Dec-12 13:06:53

Oh. OK.

If we give you winewinewinewine winewinewinewine in that case, will you make up a song (or get someone else in HQ to make it up, we don't mind) and sing it to us so that State can call her baby Jesus and give the New Messiah to the world in his cabbage van?

OliviaMumsnet's thinking about it but BethleHelenMumsnet chickened out.

EmpressOfTheNorthPole Mon 03-Dec-12 13:07:47

Honey, you're sounding very sensible today.

GalaxyDisaster Mon 03-Dec-12 13:08:15

WiththeDude - Is that true? Have I massively failed my kids by being straight? <Adds to list of ways I have failed them. Realises I have run out of space and starts a new sheet>

ChippingInLovesAutumn Mon 03-Dec-12 13:16:26

Hmm, that's a tricky one regarding 2 female parents, the baby being the egg from one and carried by the other - who would be Parent A? I can't see this legislation helping a whole lot tbh.

I can only assume they'll both be very very happy being called Mum grin

HoneyDragon Mon 03-Dec-12 13:18:10

Empress - it happens occasionally. It's really quite concerning, if I'm honest. wink

EmpressOfTheNorthPole Mon 03-Dec-12 13:19:49

It must be.

Going by what it sounds like drakes get up to, I can see the same drake being Parent B to an awful lot of Parent As.

Lilka Mon 03-Dec-12 13:28:49

Parent A is the birth mother and Parent B is the other one, whose DNA it is doesn't matter. Even if the non-birth mother is the genetic mother, she's still Parent B

I'm assuming this because right now, if two mums are going on the bc together, the birth mother goes on as the first parent always, pretty sure about that anyway

Two dads, I have no idea, maybe they get to pick?

chipmonkey Mon 03-Dec-12 13:30:41

Where is HotHeadPaisan when you need her? She linked before to a study which showed that children of same-sex relationships were as well adjusted or perhaps better adjusted than children of heterosexual parents. I will try to find it on my own!

HoneyDragon, can you clarify something. You had a typo here:
"Because I swear Justine gets stroppier every year and I really don't want her to follow through on her annal threats to shut down over Xmas "if we don't bloody well behave".

Did you mean annual threats or anal threats? Cos, you know, one has an entirely different meaning from the other.

EmpressOfTheNorthPole Mon 03-Dec-12 13:39:43

I think it might be partly dependent on whether she makes the threats on a Friday.

HoneyDragon Mon 03-Dec-12 13:53:04

Chip grin - either way they are both scary!

AngelsWithSilverWings Mon 03-Dec-12 13:59:37

Really wish I hadn't seen this thread. OP you could not have been more offensive about adoptive parents if you had tried.

Your ignorance of adoption is breathtaking.

WithTheDude Mon 03-Dec-12 14:07:59

I have decided I want to be parent Z. That way, I get to be the fun parent with no responsibilities for vomit or lice or worms or for cleaning a tub full of paint out of the carpet.

shesariver Mon 03-Dec-12 14:12:52

Mmm "Thats why legal parent As go to Iceland"..doesnt have the same prawn ring about it.

tethersend Mon 03-Dec-12 14:19:47

[shesariver grin

EmpressOfTheNorthPole Mon 03-Dec-12 14:22:15

Angels, that's the thing, her posts make her sound as if she IS ignorant. And self-contradictory - see SledYuleCated's post upthread. In almost the same breath she calls adoptive parents heroes and talks about being "reduced to their status*. As a gay mum I'm also offended but her posts really do make her sound as if her opinions are honestly not worth our getting worked up about.

chipmonkey Mon 03-Dec-12 14:26:15

Actually, this is the sort of thing my MIL goes on about. After ds3 was born she came over with a present for him and then said "chip and MrChip, I have a petition here for you to sign, it's about protecting families"
Had a look and it was a piece of homophobic anti-civil-partnership rubbish!
I refused to sign it and told her why.
She acted all bemused and asked why I didn't want to protect my children. I asked how exactly gay people marrying would affect my children unless they were gay? In which case it would be a good thing.
There are people out there who think there should be a hierarchy, with biological parents at the top, adoptive parents just below and gay parents at the bottom. All very will so long as you're the one at the top.

SeeYouSoon Mon 03-Dec-12 14:27:15

My mum died when I was little and my dad was therefore both Mum and Dad to me. So does this now make him Legal Parent BA? In which case should I buy him a load of gold jewellery and tell him to start being afraid of flying???

stowsettler Mon 03-Dec-12 14:59:20

Fuck. Ing. Hell.

When I first saw the length of this thread I avoided it. I wish I'd stayed away now. However, I think I can help with a bit of translation of the OP.
What she meant to post was:-

"I hate gay people. I am better than gay people and I am better than adoptive parents, whether gay or otherwise. Discuss."

She'll have us all goosestepping around the place and referring to the Master Race before long. I repeat: Fuck. Ing. Hell.

GalaxyDisaster Mon 03-Dec-12 15:06:11

Stow- you missed off the bit where the OP implied that step parents could steal the children of the biological parents (or at least the legal rights in respect of them) in the world's strangest game of pass the parcel. So I think you also need to add "I am better than step parents and anyone who separates and has a new relationship"

EmpressOfTheNorthPole Mon 03-Dec-12 15:07:40

Right, this thread is screaming for a change of subject. What do people fancy? Isn't it amazing being able to see Jupiter so clearly at the moment?

GalaxyDisaster Mon 03-Dec-12 15:10:06

Can you? Where do I need to look? Do I need a telescope? DD1 is just becoming fascinated with planets and we need to spend a lot of time on space websites!

givemeaclue Mon 03-Dec-12 15:17:20


Is it a gay bashing thread or an adoption bashing thread?

...adopted children don't feel the same about their adoptive parents??!!! Presumably the birth parents were unable or unwilling to look after them. So I doubt adopted children do feel the same about them as they do about the adoptive parents who have brought them up.

What alternative to adoption does op advocate? If this is on religious grounds may I remind that Joseph adopted Jesus as his son ? He didn't pack him back off to god on the grounds he is legal parent b did he?

GalaxyDisaster Mon 03-Dec-12 15:19:13

I think Empress was trying to make it an astronomy thread instead of either/both those things giveme

BoulevardOfBrokenSleep Mon 03-Dec-12 15:22:27

Someon on another thread recommended a program called Stellarium, shows you what you can see in the night sky (bugger all here in light-polluted Brum, but hey...). I have downloaded it but not installed it yet so unable to comment how good it is.

EmpressOfTheNorthPole Mon 03-Dec-12 15:33:56

Galaxy, have you seen the very bright star near the moon? Jupiter.

I don't really mind what kind of thread it turns into. It just feels like a pretty nasty one right now.

I like the Jesus point though. Where does all this leave Our Father? Our Legal Parent G? Our Illegal Parent?

givemeaclue Mon 03-Dec-12 15:34:38

Shall I have another packet of skips

GalaxyDisaster Mon 03-Dec-12 15:39:23

giveme - Well, I hate Skips, but if you have Wotsits I'd dig in.

Empress - Well well. Never knew that. Will look out tonight!

GalaxyDisaster Mon 03-Dec-12 15:40:03

Well - isn't 'Our Father' really just linguistic. Don't Christians believe that God transcends gender? Or am I getting muddled.

FlaminNoraImPregnantPanda Mon 03-Dec-12 15:45:16

Galaxy as Empress says Jupiter is the brightest star in the sky. This is with the naked eye. Use a telescope or just a set of binoculars (even cheapo kids ones) and it then looks like a planet rather than a star.

mrsd277 Mon 03-Dec-12 15:47:02

I'm loving this thread. It reaffirms my believe in humanity. OP aside.

Selim Mon 03-Dec-12 15:58:09

Our legal parent B, who art in heaven...

Hail Mary, legal parent A of God...

Wel it will take some getting used to but they changed the whole mass last year and it didn't take that long to be off book again so I imagine we'll cope.

FlaminNoraImPregnantPanda Mon 03-Dec-12 16:15:03

I think it's disgraceful to use Legal Parent A and Legal Parent B. It's so discriminatory against Legal Parent B who will always come second to Legal Parent A. This is not equality. Everyone should be Legal Parent A.

EmpressOfTheNorthPole Mon 03-Dec-12 16:22:24

How about Legal Parent Red and Legal Parent Yellow?

HECTheHallsWithRowsAndFolly Mon 03-Dec-12 16:25:26

But why should the letter A have such status?

That discriminates against the whole of the rest of the alphabet. Are you suggesting A is better than B?

FlaminNoraImPregnantPanda Mon 03-Dec-12 16:38:12

Because it's the alpha letter, and let's face reality here, do you want to be in the A-team or the B-team? Although personally I always feel a strong affinity with X, as the minority and most oppressed letter.

Selim Mon 03-Dec-12 17:04:52

I would disagree that X is oppressed. It maybe underused but it is mystery, the unknown, God and self all rolled into one. It is the most exalted letter. It even has its own chromosome.

I think the only solution is to adopt the system used in primary schools to differentiate work.

HECTheHallsWithRowsAndFolly Mon 03-Dec-12 17:05:49


smiley faces?

FlaminNoraImPregnantPanda Mon 03-Dec-12 17:11:21

In my primary school we were identified by animal groups. I could live with Legal Parent Panda (better than Legal Parent Red and Legal Parent Yellow. What on earth were you thinking Empress?).

Selim Mon 03-Dec-12 17:11:28

Legal parent circle and legal parent square

Legal parent jupiter and legal parent saturn

Legal parent lion and legal parent tiger.

and so on.

FlaminNoraImPregnantPanda Mon 03-Dec-12 17:14:42

Actually Selim, that's not a bad idea. Legal parent lion and legal parent tiger could come with a third option of legal parent bear.

Oh my!

EmpressOfTheNorthPole Mon 03-Dec-12 17:20:04

Oh, I agree, the others are a lot better!

BoulevardOfBrokenSleep Mon 03-Dec-12 17:23:00

GalaxyDisaster - "isn't 'Our Father' really just linguistic. Don't Christians believe that God transcends gender? Or am I getting muddled."

I'm pretty sure the CofE just established beyond all reasonable doubt that God does, in fact, have a penis. wink
They're still working on the great boxers/briefs schism, though.

HoneyDragon Mon 03-Dec-12 17:33:40

I'd deffo be the illegal parent grin

SledYuleCated Mon 03-Dec-12 21:18:24

Hang on, I'm not even a parent...


Devora Mon 03-Dec-12 22:44:49

Sied - nah, I think OP's construction is that adoptive parenting isn't REAL parenting - it's just unpaid FT childminding of a kid you have no vested interest in. Anyone who took that on would have to be a bit of a hero, right?

Chip - I think the research you want is by Susan Golombok, Cambridge University.

SledYuleCated - perhaps the OP could clarify whether non-parents rate above or below gay and adoptive parents on the OP's hierarchy of heroism.

Devora Mon 03-Dec-12 22:56:24

Oh, waaaaay below, surely.

A woman who doesn't breed? What's the point of that, exactly? shock

SledYuleCated Mon 03-Dec-12 23:08:37

I don't know, but should I worry? I'm worrying. I'm not even Legal Parent A. I'm just A. A what? A giraffe? A poke in the eye?

LadyIsabellaWrotham Mon 03-Dec-12 23:32:47

This thread has brightened my day considerably. Lots of lovely MNers on top form, LalaGabby's contender for Post Of The Week, right at the top. And the realisation that if the anti-gay marriage mob are so desperate that they have to resort to this load of old bollocks then they are really truly screwed.

(So sorry that the adoptive parents got upset along the way though - you do know that the OP is in a minority of one though, don't you? Here, at least.)

Devora Mon 03-Dec-12 23:45:24

Aw, thanks LadyIsabella. I think we're a pretty thick-skinned bunch, actually. Just tiger-like when someone starts dissing our kids smile

chipmonkey Mon 03-Dec-12 23:49:16

Oh no, adoptive parents are heroes dontcha know? It's why I hang around outside MrsDeVere's house waiting to get her autograph.

Lilka Mon 03-Dec-12 23:50:14

My wonderful comment (which wasn't at all angrily thumped out without thinking) got deleted! Oh well

Let me rephrase thoughtfully - It's so awful that OP feels so dreadfully sad about being a parent, and feels reduced, especially to the level of an adoptive parent. Please excuse me from this thread for just a minute, while I go and fetch the world's smallest violin

I love being Parent A, A Parent

Heck, I'm not only Parent A, I'm B, C, D, X, AA, Infinity. I'm the ONLY Parent in this house. So I should get to be everything at once, I think

Devora Tue 04-Dec-12 00:14:58

Spero's spot-on, though, when she talks about how the equal civil marriage debate exposes how some people really do feel that their marriage will be downgraded by it, because the fact that they are married is one of the few places where they can feel 'better' than other people.

MrsDeVere Tue 04-Dec-12 07:35:42

Bloody tea on bloody iPad now
Thanks chip hmm


<slips into catsuit and cape and goes to see what the dcs are doing>

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