Mumsnet Talk

would I know about it and how would I know if it had harmed the baby?

Just found out smoked salmon is on the 'banned' list and I've been scoffing loads of it (am almost 20 weeks, have been craving it madly and thought the omegas would be good for me and baby!).

Also, mussels are OK if properly cooked aren't they? DH is out on his motorbike bringing back a couple of kilos from the north Norfolk coast as I type!

ok, this is not professional knowledge, but as I understand it, you're no more likely to get listeria than anyone else eating the product, its just risky if you get it when pregnant, hence the advice to avoid certain products which vary in different countries. i think it makes you very sick, so you would know if you'd had it. Hth.

Smoked salmon is not actually on the banned list in the UK, because here the listeria risk from smoked salmon is infinitessimal. Which i probably spelt wrong. I'm 29 weeks and I've eaten smoked salmon all the way through. I'd keep going if I were you, but remember not to eat toooooo much oily fish.

Mussels are much dodgier, but they do say that if you cook them through properly and eat them straight away it shouldn't be a problem.

Does salmon fall into the mercury category then? Glad to hear the risk is so minimal for listeria.

I am PG with number 2 and got lots of raised eyebrows from the women expecting their first when I was stuffing my face with enjoying smoked salmon canapes at the work Christmas lunch. Thought the 'rules' must have changed.

Have never been ill from eating mussels from where we buy them. I'd never have them under any other circumstances while PG.

I think a lot of these ''banned'' foods are load of rubbish! Listeria is very rare in the UK, I've gone all my life without ever contracting it or knowing anybody who's ever contracted it so I'm doubtful that I'm likely to get it within my 9 months of pregnancy.
Women have been successfully having babies since the beginning of human kind and it's only within recent years that we've been told we can't eat this and that.
I'm still careful about what I eat but I don't take all these warnings too seriously.

It isn't that rare - my uncle had it from Pate and FIL from cheese in the past five years.

Smoked salmon is fine, however imo - I've been eating it and intent to continue. It's all about common sense.

And in answer to the question both of the above people were extremely ill for weeks. So yes, if you had it then you would know about it!

So I really, really can't eat Stilton then. I am craving blue cheese sooooo much. I'm missing it more than booze...

You are slightly immunosuppressed when pregnant and therefore more likely to succumb to food poisoning. Several sites I've read say 20 times more likely to get it than general population.

Blue cheese is a risk, Poppet45. I feel your pain on that one.

Who knew I'd miss stinky cheese more than the old sly ciggie and a glass of crisp white wine...

Hmmm crisp white wine...

Listeria cases are increasing (I know someone who lost their baby to it last year, she believes she contracted it from pre packed salad ) - though it is still quite rare it can be very serious (there are about 170 deaths a year). It is a food safety issue, & while it can be present in pretty much anything high risk foods include pre-packed sandwiches & salads, cooked deli meats, smoked salmon, soft cheeses and pates.

You can still eat smoked salmon though - just freeze it for 24 hours before you eat it

I don't trust bagged salad actually because it often smells funny and it bagged days before you eat it. For that reason I think that pre-packed sandwiches are less likely to be a problem as they have not had the same length of time for the bacteria to multiply. I don't think the ss risk is listeria, I think it's that toxo whatever bug anyway. I also think that most soft cheeses are absolutely fine, as long as they are pasteurised and fairly new - it's the mould ripened you need to avoid.

The fact is that there are probably loads of bugs in your fridge unless you fumigate it daily. You can get food poisoning in fact from absolutely anything, it's just a case of being careful.

Packaged sandwiches are actually very high in risk of carrying bugs, I saw a programme where they tested sandwiches from random sandwich shops etc and a surprising high percentage carried various germs and diseases. They're not as innocent as they look.
As far as freezing food to kill germs goes, that's rubbish! It stops germs and bacteria from growing whilst froozen but doesn't kill it.

Ooh dont say that.. i just ate a pre packed sandwich..

I'm never eating pre-packed salad or sandwiches again...

Blue cheese - I told my doctor I was pining for blue cheese during my last pregnancy and he said 'Go on, have your blue cheese'. So I did. Haven't kept off it for pregnancy number 2 either. What is it I'm supposed to get - listeria again is it?
Poppy

Would your doctor be there to pick up the pieces if you were that 1/1000 that was affected, though PoppyField? The reason I didn't have any of what I craved in any of my 3 pregnancies (DC3 is due in April) is that I didn't want to be able to even try and blame myself if my DC was poorly. I was SO tempted by a rare steak at 32 weeks with DD2, that I was drooling, but in the end I knew the guilt would destroy me.

Fortunately for me. DD1 now has developmental delays, and DD2 was born at 35+4 after she stopped growing. I know it wasn't due to my carelessness, because I stuck to the guidance. I know I would be thinking about that steak

Having said that, lots of people have a far less guilty streak in them, so could take it on the chin!

Freezing will kill toxoplasmosis because that is a parasite, not bacteria.

Doctors are not food microbiologists and as such I'd be extremely wary of taking their advice over that of the FSA, who are the expert body on this subject.

Listeria can take effect between 3 and 70 days from ingesting the bacteria. I always feel bemused when people say they had it from a particular cheese/pate/whatever, as surely in most cases the link is only supposed, rather than based on a food sample being tested and found positive for the microorganism.

But then even if it was tested unless the levels were extremely high because we ingest bacteria without getting ill all the time. Two people can eat the same thing - one is ill and one isn't.

In terms of pre-packed sandwiches - if I make my own out of my own fridge then they will also contain bacteria. If you take it to extremes then you would never eat anything!

As someone who has suffered from listeria based food poisoning, just like to reassure you that you really would know about it if you fell ill. It is not like a subtle cold type symptoms or slight lethargy/something that could be mistaken as morning sickness. Perhaps it is different in different people, but for me I was really ill and no question that it was food poisoning. Fortunately not pregnant at the time. DH and I work from home and tend to eat almost identical food so suprised that he did not fall sick. Obviously no exact idea what made me ill as it could have been over a long timespan. I suspect some homemade pate I made in a huge batch and had in the house a while, but will never know.

People who make prepacked sandwiches do so on abysmal pay in very poor conditions, usually. I don't eat them when PG (and consequently have huge cravings for them) but there is a risk and pregnancy increases the risk you'll get ill. I have twice been ill outside of pregnancy when I'm fairly sure a prepacked sandwich was to blame.

As someone who has had a stillborn baby (not food poisoning related) I would second Lou's suggestion that eating dodgy food in pregnancy is really not a risk worth taking. I have found it extremely hard to exclude high risk food - I get extremely sick in pg and have wide ranging food aversions so that some days I can find nothing that I can remotely stomach that isn't on the banned list. Nevertheless, I just wouldn't do it.

I think it depends what you define as 'pre-packed' sandwiches. They aren't all mass produced in that way.

Cooked blue cheese is OK if that helps anyone's craving?

thanks purplemyrtle, but it's not quite the same. I daren't have it to cook with - I would eat it when it's all cold and lovely mmmmmmmmmmmmmm. <dissolves>

been eating smoked salmon and brie all the time. Only thing I have avoided is pate. I dont eat shellfish anyway

I'm off to cook some stilton and...
just cook stilton actually.

No not really, a bit early for me, I'll risk it after 12 weeks. But thanks for the fab suggestion!

sorry to be the bearer of bad news poppet , but it seems that second and third trimesters put you at greater risk of listeria infection than eating cheese in the first (due to decreased immunity). The good news however is that the estimated risk of getting listeriosis from infected sources is only 1 in thirty-thousand. I did eat some blue/soft cheeses while pregant, though only in moderation.

While I would have been devastated if anything had happened, I took the view that if I avoided getting in a car, then my baby couldn't die in a car crash and I wasn't about to stop getting in cars for the duration of pregnancy. That said I completely understand the feelings of mrsg and others who want to eliminate any risks as much as humanly possible.

I (personally) think risk evaluation in pregnancy is a horses for courses issue. Some people will be more stressed by trying to avoid all known risks by changing their behaviour, whereas others would be more stressed by exposing themselves to an avoidable risk. And a minimal stress pregnancy has to be a good thing.

I did avoid driving a car after the first trimester last time, RI. Impossible this time round though with DS to ferry about.

Apparently, it is sometimes considered a marker for antenatal depression, if you follow all the food advice all the time. But I take the view that I'd get three weeks worth of indigestible worrying for one indulgence, it would spoil it.

The list of things DH has to supply the second baby is born is getting bigger....

This one works for my blue cheese cravings, although it's less agonising if you can get someone else to cook it for you, had a very weak moment cutting up some lovely ripe gorgonzola!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2006/nov/04/recipes.cheese

Have eaten loads of smoked salmon with no trouble both this pregnancy and with ds, who we discovered on Christmas Day loves it too - thought we could get away with giving him just scrambled eggs at under two, how wrong we were!

ps tell me about reduced immunity, day 6 of hideous winter virus so far!

Gaaaah my mouth is drooling after reading that recipe.
It's an interesting topic the risk management one. I'm trying to follow all the dietary safety guidelines, but then I'm cycling 10kms a day and I suppose risking getting hit by a car! And yes I do know the consequences as a relative was killed by a driver when I was still at school. It's actually why I don't drive. But then I couldn't imagine giving up my only bit of daily exercise as it sorts out my nausea and sense of lethargy. And I'd be worrying about the risks to bub about getting so unfit when I have to do something as energetic as give birth.
And here I'm worrying about cheese.
What an odd lot we are.

Just out of interest, are the peeps on here who are avoiding ALL the banned foods also avoiding alcohol completely? Or just having the occasional drink?

Boobz, I avoid alcohol completely, although I don't drink except for special occasions where it would be rude to refuse (i.e. toast at a wedding) anyway. Just don't like the taste, so would always opt for soft or water. Pregnancy is a nice excuse to have!

Brettgirl2, Most soft cheeses ARE mould ripened and the listeria risk is not significatly different if the cheese is made with pasturised or unpasturised milk. In fact in unpasturised cheese, the natural good bacterias can work against listeria infections. Mozzarella and cream cheese (philli types) are fine though.

mrsg...

Hiya I completely understand what you mean about driving whilst pregnant, I wear a maternity seat belt and if i'm not wearing it it feels awful so i always do!! I guess i am one of the mums who have a low guilt tolerance - I couldn't forgive myself. I know someone who was once told that a placental abrubtion was very likely caused by their actions. I couldn't live with that myself. Its really all down to personal choice and knowing the risks...

Bubbaluv - you can also have boursin. (which is quite important I think ) there is a handy list here because it is highly confusing

www.babycentre.co.uk/pregnancy/nutrition/foodsafety/cheeseexpert/

The one I really don't get is parmesan.

Boobz - I think a lot of it is about common sense personally. I am definitely of the opinion that the occasional glass of wine is fine. My approach personally is to choose things that I think are good for me and therefore baby. I had to laugh - I was out for lunch with people from work and the other pg woman was on about how she was eating no soft cheese at all and wouldn't even eat cheesecake with pasteurised eggs then she left all of her vegetables .

Listeria is very scary but unlikely, that said I wouldn't eat the banned cheeses or pate - but then to be fair I eat them very infrequently anyway so would imagine they are more likley to make me ill than some French woman who has Brie in her sandwiches daily. I think that it is damaging to get too obsessed - nine months pregnancy is a hell of a long time and if I give up on life completely I'll go mad.

Brettgirl2, Boursin is basically a cream cheese with herbs in isn't it? Any of those processed spreads are fine.
Parmesan is a hard, non-mould-ripened cheese so that's why it's not a problem. Doesn't matter if it is pasturised or not.

It's just the fact that it's not pasturised and been hanging around for a couple of years that just concerns me a bit - doesn't sound like a recipe for good food hygiene to me! (I need a real scientific explanation about why I think - it must be OK if they say it is.)

I used to work in the cheese industry so will give what help I can. It's the milk, not the cheese that is pasturised and listeria infection happens to the cheese, not the milk, so actually much less of a factor than most people think. Parmesan is pretty much moisture-free and has a very high salt content, so not an environment condusive to listeria infection.

brettgirl, many people go off vegetables during pregnancy; it's the most common form of pregnancy food aversion. So please don't judge the poor woman; she is doing her best.

Nine months of pregnancy is a long time. I find it pretty much hell. But it's even longer if your baby dies and you have to go through it all over again. Sorry to be blunt, but there you are.

I have to say that I do have some alcohol during pregnancy - I allow myself half a glass of wine every week or so, from 12 weeks if I want it. I refrained completely whilst TTC and in first pregnancy (18 months in all) and just couldn't manage it any more for my subsequent pregnancy.

Bubbaluv, thanks for the info re cheese. What did you do in the cheese industry? (Just interested )

So I'm not doing my best because I think that the most important thing during pg is to be healthy and this also includes my mind? It's about balance and making sensible, responsible decisions.

I don't judge her at all, but she's always whinging on about cutting out various things that she doesn't need to. (But interesting she eats pre-packed sandwiches)

My turn to be blunt - if you really are going to be that OTT then babies can also die once they are born - are you never going to take your baby/child out of the house in case it is in an accident or catches an infection? Risk is a part of everyone's life including your little one's and children who are never allowed to take any are damaged in other ways.

I get what you are saying brettgirl but if someone lost a baby to listeriosis and knew that they could have easily avoided it by not eating that particular high-risk food (and ALL cook-chill foods are high risk, especially if you don't re-heat them properly, as well as pre-prepared salads and sandwiches) then the guilt would be harder to live with than if, say, you had taken the baby out for a walk and a dreadful accident had befallen them. They aren't really in the same risk category.

How exactly would you know what had caused it? You wouldn't - if you want to take this to extremes I could make out a case for being able to get listeriosis from practically anything.

People at work have to eat something for lunch - I can't see the difference between eating a sandwich that has been freshly made by a local caterer or eating one that I have kept in the fridge overnight myself. In fact the food hygeine they have is probably better. I wouldn't eat one of those machine ones that hang around for a week, however but then I wouldn't normally. As I said what is a pre-packed sandwich anyway? Because pubs etc often don't actually make them to order so should we avoid eating anything cold outside the house?

In this thread people have started to talk about avoiding travelling in cars and all sorts and it's got to a really scary level, I think.

At the end of the day everyone has to make their own decisions about what to eat and not eat. If I was mainlining herion then fair enough, have a go at me for being irresponsible but this has got way out of control.

brettgirl i completely agree with you. i think that if you become too paranoid in pg then life as a mother will be almost unbearable with worry!

i can't believe that people would consider not driving and also believe that things are 'high risk' when the risks are actually very low. the risks of HAVING a baby a higher than the risk of contracting listeriosis, does that mean you shouldn't have a baby - it is avoidable after all!

you are right about the sandwiches up to a point - the thing about Listeria is that, if it is present, it will continue to grow quite happily between 4 and 10 degrees C. So your home fridge should be below 4 deg C, as should the fridges and chill cabinets in commercial food environments.

Listeria is a soil and water borne bacterium hence can get into almost any type of food, but it is easily killed by thorough heating/cooking.

For everyone concerned about it, read this info to see more.

how would you be sure that items in your home fridge were kept below 4 degrees whilst being unpacked in a supermarket, in the car home/ being delivered...

do you have a cool box in your car?

Well yes brettgirl and I fully accept that not all risks can be avoided. However it is pretty bloody easy, comparatively speaking to avoid the foods the FSA recommend pregnant women do not eat. To go against the guidelines by saying you are using "common sense" doesn't sound like common sense to me unless you actually know something serious about microbiology.

And yes, it was possibly OTT in my last pg to avoid driving a car (because I am short and couldn't drive without my bump touching the steering wheel, thus creating quite a high risk of fetal injury in even a small accident. I was also on occasions too sick to be a competent driver.) I still rode in cars as a passenger. This time round it isn't practical for me to stop taking this risk and therefore I am driving.

And I did not mean to imply, brettgirl, that you were not doing your best by saying your colleague is doing her best. You're making choices I wouldn't make but it doesn't mean you're not doing your best.

www.eatwell.gov.uk/agesandstages/pregnancy/whenyrpregnant/

FSA advice does not mention sandwiches.

No it doesn't, you're quite right there. That is down to individual choice. I've had food poisoning twice from sandwiches (not listeria) and all the nice ones unfortunately have salad in them which I'm guessing is likely to be of the prebagged variety. Hence I avoid.

If anyone can tell me that the salad used in sandwiches is properly washed and kept I would be very grateful. <hopeful look>

I have thought about this and the ones that I eat are definitely freshly made (because you can tell). My OH used to work at a company where they had a sandwich machine where the sandwiches had a date four days ahead . Him and the lads he worked with called them the 'filthy' sandwiches, I wouldn't eat those! I definitely think that it is something to be careful about because the longer they are made for the longer the bugs have to multiply.