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Reducing Stillbirth: Count the Kicks Campaign

(509 Posts)
CarGirl Thu 14-Apr-11 19:50:39

I just want to promote "Count The Kicks"

Please read this, if it helps one Mum not suffer the agony of stillbirth it's worth it

http://countthekicks.org.uk/

CarGirl Thu 14-Apr-11 19:51:19

conversion didn't work!

countthekicks.org.uk/

onlyonehazelnut Thu 14-Apr-11 20:08:51

I've never heard of Count the Kicks.

I sat around for ages wondering what was wrong until DH told me not to be such a twat and go to the hospital. Ds was born by emcs and survived smile. He has got a few probs but nothing major but I feel guilty because if I had gone in straight away he would probably not have any problems at all. If it hadn't been for DH he would've died during the night, I didn't want to 'bother anyone'.

It infuriates me when people start threads about reduced movements and get told to have some ice-cream.

CarGirl Thu 14-Apr-11 20:11:47

Another bump.

Stillbirth has been in the news today and here is a website giving so much information about how to count the kicks.

Also the thing I didn't know is that a baby will still move around after death in the womb due to the fluid hence you have to count the kicks.

Please pregnant Mums to be read about it and promote the campaign.

Ernie1 Thu 14-Apr-11 20:18:32

I'm only 7 weeks and hadn't heard about this charity at all- thanks so much for sharing.

JoyceEasterBunnyaby Thu 14-Apr-11 20:19:22

Thanks for posting. After hearing some of the stillbirth statistics on the news today, it's been playing on my mind - especially as I'm currently 28 weeks pg with DC2. I worry that I notice things like movement less with this pregnancy because I'm running around after my DS (2.10) but I do know there are certain times of the day I feel like a human punchbag!!

I've read some of the website and totally agree with the need for a public campaign to raise awareness. Thanks again

CarGirl Thu 14-Apr-11 20:19:38

Please tell all the mums to be you get to know. Stillbirth is so much more common than most people realise.

Another shameless bump.

JimmyChoo17 Thu 14-Apr-11 20:45:26

Some good tracking downloads on there too, thanks for the info!!

Bratfink Thu 14-Apr-11 20:52:17

Thanks CarGirl.

Substandard Thu 14-Apr-11 21:05:27

I agree with everything hazelnut says except my daughter died because I didn't know about the kick counting and didn't want to bother anyone. Dp saved my life but too late for our girl.
Also v irritated by the blasé attitude when people come on here for advice re reduced movements and choose to follow the 'have a cold drink, lie down and mention it to your midwife next time' and ignore the people who know you cannot take the risk. Some posters seem so keen to see the medical professions as interfering and out to get them they prefer to hear have a drink or the myth that all babies slow down their movement to get ready for birth as a viable alternative to getting a proper medical opinion. I know all MNetters give their advice because they care but on this subject it can be dangerous and I wish a standard reply would flash up 'please call your delivery suite straightaway'.
Sorry for the rant.

CarGirl Thu 14-Apr-11 21:10:48

Shameless bump

Substandard, I am sorry. ANd I agree.
The UK has had bad statistics for at least a decade. I think people should campaign for the NHS to offer a scan in the 3rd trimester, the one that checks that waters and umbilical flow are fine. This is the norm in the rest of Europe.

prolificwillybreeder Thu 14-Apr-11 21:12:41

Thank you for this info, I was truly uninformed until I read this. I will be downloading the apps too.

CarGirl Thu 14-Apr-11 21:21:44

bump

Substandard Thu 14-Apr-11 21:25:21

Oh and thank you cargirl for bringing this up

CarGirl Thu 14-Apr-11 21:28:05

Do you think we ccould get MNHQ to put this somewhere visible??????

On the pregnancy useful information stuff?

TheNewStig Thu 14-Apr-11 21:33:39

Thank you CarGirl. Am amazed how little emphasis is put on this here in UK.
Report your thread and ask MNHQ to put it as a sticky??

caramelwaffle Thu 14-Apr-11 21:34:07

Bump

thederkinsdame Thu 14-Apr-11 21:35:05

Cargirl, that's a great link. I had reduced movements and I am convinced if I had gone home like a junior dr said, DS wouldn't be here. I only knew about counting the kicks because my sister was stillborn...

CarGirl Thu 14-Apr-11 21:37:48

How can we spread the word? I've finished having children I don't mix with many pregnant Mums anymore?

GeekLove Thu 14-Apr-11 21:39:20

Bump.
Could you folks at MNHQ make this a sticky? Thanks!

So sorry Substandard sad. I agree this isn't highlighted nearly enough, and I think in England we are particularly bad at not feeling we should be 'bothering' health professionals. Would be great if this is the opportunity to get the kick-counting message across.

For those worried about keeping track of this, especially with older dc's around, I recommend a kick-counting bracelet of some kind. I wore one with my second baby and this was the only reason I picked up that her kicks had slowed down at 38 weeks. I had an infection and slight fever but it was enough to cause her distress, her heart rate was very high and I needed to stay on the ward and be monitored regularly till they were happy it had settled down. Reduced kicks were the only sign and I would never have realised the pattern had changed without the evidence of the bracelet, I tend to be an 'oh it'll be all right' sort of person.

I've just used the report post function to draw HQ's attention to this thread and ask that they consider putting a message at the top of all Pregnancy threads - like there is in mental health for example. It could say that if you are posting because of reduced fetal movement then call your midwife and look at the countthekicks site.

caramelwaffle Thu 14-Apr-11 21:50:02

Bump

DreamingOfABump Thu 14-Apr-11 21:53:10

as unpopular as it sounds, research doesnt support the use of kick charts in pregnancy and the national institute for clinical excellence dont recommend it.

Countthekicks is about awareness though - mothers need to know that babies can run in to trouble and reduced movements from normal is a sign of that. 'Current research' isn't exactly overflowing with ideas to reduce stillbirth in the UK so until something better comes up I think awareness raising is a good idea.

CarGirl Thu 14-Apr-11 21:56:31

If you read the site it clearly explains that you need to learn what is normal for your baby, it's not simply just "counting the kicks" my friend who has just had a baby following a previous stillbirth was told to complete kick charts............

Shuang Fri 15-Apr-11 01:49:32

Hi everyone,

Thanks for bringing up this topic. I wonder that apart from counting the kicks, will a fetal heart dopler help to monitor/reassure as well? What do you think?

Hope we all have a smooth and safe journey! xx

serendipity16 Fri 15-Apr-11 07:23:00

I've had a doppler since i was pregnant with my 2nd baby. I found it to be a lovely thing to be able to heart my babies heartbeating whilst relaxing at home.

However......... a doppler will give you reassurance BUT it may not pick up a potential problem.

I used a doppler through my pregnancy with my 2nd baby. At around 7am at 35+1 i woke up, was lying in bed watching my 1yr old playing with his dad. As i lay there for half an hour i realised my baby hadn't kicked which was unusual for her. They went for a bath & i used the doppler and heard ... nothing!!!!
My baby had died during the night, the sound of nothing was heartbreaking.... i knew then that she had died.

I have continued to use the doppler in my other pregnancies because it does give me a little bit of reassurance however it mustn't overtake your natural instincts. If you're worried baby isn't moving alot or are in any pain that doesn't feel right you must get yourself to your maternity unit asap.

ivykaty44 Fri 15-Apr-11 07:30:07

Can I ask, are you given a booklet to fill in the kicks? I was given a booklet and had to fill in the kicks I felt each day starting in the morning until I had felt at least 10 kicks - if not then the leaflet said to contact the hospital - this leaflet was given to me by the midwife.

I had thought it was standard practice to be given these sheets by midwife in uk

louisesh Fri 15-Apr-11 08:59:27

I agree with Serendipity16 i too had/have a dopppler i used with my DD Georgie however she too died overnight at 41 weeks.Georgie had never moved much and i NEVER felt her kick throughout the whole pregnancy however, my consultant said as that was normal for Georgie not to move much but when she died i couldn t hear anything on my doppler.I went for a shower tried again then went straight to hospital where her death was confirmed.
I think this campagin is a very good idea in hilighting just how common stillbirth is.What annoys me is all the health promotion out there on cot death however, less babies are lost to cot death than are stillborn but stillbirth is never mentioned until it happens.Throughout my ante natal classes stillbirth was NEVER mentioned.As a health professional I understand to discuss stillbirth would scare mothers to be however more information needs to be out there and discussed openly.Unfortunatley its a fear many of us have had to confront.
Its quite disgusting the UK has such high rates when we plough so much money in to research in to many ohter matters and 17 babies a day are stillborn.

NewMummy5July2011 Fri 15-Apr-11 11:11:40

Systemsaddict - what's a count the kicks bracelet and is it something you can buy?

JimmyChoo17 Fri 15-Apr-11 11:27:28

Have to admit now tho - I feel concerned about my own kicks...but realise this is down to reading this thread (Disclaimer - Im not blaming the thread, I chose to read and awareness is a brilliant thing! I think the site provided is a good start for info and also that Northerlurker makes a good point about research)

I am 26+6 and I go from being able to feel and SEE the kicks to not at all for quite awhile. The patterns are not always regular and now - like since yesterday the kicks are different and much less.

Now for some people this will be normal due to body mass, baby position and like myself - being a first time mum you might not have the experience to say well actually this is all normal. This information tho - is obtained from Forums, midwives on forums but not my actual midwife or health provider. So I do see why people will post about worries and accept the advice given - plus I see why posters offer that advice - to get a repsonse from baby.

I do hate that whilst I have a contact number for midwife and regular check ups now im past 26 weeks - that really. I feel if I am calling her each time I feel like this...it may be too often and could be like crying wolf. Pregnancy is really just one long worry (Ihave had 2 early losses and took 2.5 years to conceive)

Im not sure if I have come across how I mean to but I guess whilst the awareness is great - some times you can get obsessed with these things. I know thats down to individuals but even tho Im feeling some movement its lighter than normal and at different times of the day BUT the doppler is picking up the heart beat and plenty of those screeching noises which I guess are movement. Anyone know when baby sets up its regular routine and sticks to it? Or does that never happen?

Needless to say I have downloaded the kick print offs.

It is frightening to read the above stories ladies I am so sorry you have gone through that and I really hope I never have to and also with increased awareness - others dont either.

Hi Newmummy it's a bracelet you wear and move a marker up a notch each time you feel a kick, you can get different sorts, found some here www.jacobsadder.co.uk/, the one I had was wooden beads and an elastic band marker but I haven't found that online. It helped me realise she had normally kicked 10 times by lunchtime and didn't one day so I spotted a change quickly.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Fri 15-Apr-11 12:03:32

forgive me if this comes across as deeply insensitive but I am genuinely interested in the answers to the following questions...

I thought that miscarriage/stillbirth was natures way of removing a foetus that could never survive?

If by kick counting (or whatever) you identify a problem, can anything actually be done?

Is it not better to focus on the potential causes of stillbirth and try and eliminate those, rather than obsess about whether or not something is wrong with your baby.

Those of you who have lost your babies, I cannot imagine how horrific that would be, and I am sorry for your loss.

Not necessarily IAGTBF. Lots of stillbirths are unexplained, and kicks slowing down in the late stages of pregnancy can indicate distress (eg from cord round neck, something going wrong with placenta, infection) which if caught in time baby can be saved, eg with an emergency section. Hence the need to be aware if movements change from what is normal for your baby. Sadly in other cases there are no signs of anything being wrong and/or nothing can be done and you are right that more research is needed.

caramelwaffle Fri 15-Apr-11 12:53:24

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Substandard Fri 15-Apr-11 13:09:46

IAGTBA It is that kind of ignorance that leads to people belittling the bereaved and saying things like 'it just wasn't meant be' or 'it's god's way'.
For your information there was absolutely nothing 'wrong' with my daughter. An extensive post mortem proved that. She was less than week from her due date. I had a perfect pregnancy and yet in the space of 12 hours severe pre-eclampsia developed, a spike in blood pressure blew the placenta off the uterus wall and Hellp syndrome developed. The internal bleeding disguised the blood pressure rise. My poor girl effectively suffocated to death with barely an outward sign.
And for the record I neither smoked nor drank, I wasn't overweight or 'old' - other myths peddled to comfort the uninformed when the spectre of stillbirth is raised.
No one else I have personally heard of stillbirth happening to was because the 'foetus' was defective'. By the way those 'foetuses' are our children.

janedoe25 Fri 15-Apr-11 13:53:17

substandard i couldnt have said better myself!

"I thought that miscarriage/stillbirth was natures way of removing a foetus that could never survive?"

IAGTBA My perfect baby daughter (not foetus) was still birn 6 weeks ago at 41 wks with no know reason. Your ignorance and comments have deeply saddened me.

grumblinalong Fri 15-Apr-11 14:04:57

IAGTBA It does come across as deeply insensitive and very very ignorant. It is because of this general ignorance surrounding stillbirth that the figures are so high.

If by noticing that kicks have decreased, you go into hospital and they find that the placenta has failed or like substandard your blood pressure has changed a stillbirth could be averted. That's not obsessing, it's common sense!

If this information was more widely published it may bring the shocking figure of 17 stillbirths a day down. Identifying it can mean the difference between taking a child home or not. This is not 'natures way', its about missing vital medical warning signs. In some cases there is unexplained stillbirth but as you say more research would find a cause I'm sure.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Fri 15-Apr-11 14:28:35

I am truly sorry for any offence caused, and hold my hands up to be completely ignorant. I have been fortunate enough to not know anyone who has gone through this.

Despite my apparent insensitivity I am impressed that you felt able to answer my questions, and you have entirely changed my mind.

Kick count charts seem such a simple and inexpensive thing - I cannot understand why they are not used more widely.

Regarding the use of the word foetus, that was crass and I apologise. I was trying so hard to word my questions in the least offensive way and obviously I failed spectacularly.

Again I apologise for asking these questions on this thread - if its any consolation I have learnt a lot, and I am so sorry blush

janedoe25 Fri 15-Apr-11 14:37:21

IAGTBF Thank you for your apology, i should apologise to you also, things are still so very raw for me and i am sorry for jumping down your throat.

I am glad that this thread is successful in raising the awarenss of stillbirths.

Substandard Fri 15-Apr-11 14:49:56

Thank you for the apology IAGTBF, very gracious

serendipity16 Fri 15-Apr-11 14:53:17

My daughter was stillborn in 2002 so not as raw as janedoes loss but my god that comment hurt. Yes i know you've said sorry but it only takes 2 seconds to type into google "stillbirth' and within a few minutes you'd have lots of information on stillbirth so you can be informed.

My daughter was perfect, nothing wrong with her at all.
I had a concealed abruption, no signs or anything that my baby was dying inside me. I didn't have high BP, wasn't old, didn't smoke, drink or do drugs either.

A stillborn baby is a baby...... would you call a 6lb 8oz baby a miscarriage?
No because she was a fully formed, perfect baby who died due to the placenta coming away.

sarahmia Fri 15-Apr-11 16:34:19

can i ask, from when should you be counting kicks from? im 26 weeks today.

janedoe25 Fri 15-Apr-11 16:59:51

sarahmia see this link countthekicks.org.uk/

louisesh Fri 15-Apr-11 17:23:23

IAGTBF you are very lucky if you haven t suffered a stillbirth or even known anyone who has.It is certainly not a way of "nature's way of removing a foteus that couldn t survive".
My daughter was born a healthy 7lb 12 oz and the only reason she died was due to E coil which is a bacteria we ALL have inside us [vagina,rectum etc...] as i had my 2 nd sweep and lost my mucus plug it allowed the E coli to infiltrate the placenta causing a lack of oxygen so Georgie died of Hypoxia at 41 weeks.On the PM she was totally and utterly perfect .My daughter's death was a result of bad timing and bad luck and could happen to anyone as a pure fluke.We re just incredibly unlucky it happened to us.
Platitudes are quite annoying i ve "dared" anyone to say to me "it ,s happened for a reason" or any other crap like that.
I attended everyone of my appointments [had extra due to previous history of MCs] , was on Aspirin,had twice weekly hormone injections up to 13 weeks, scanned every 2 weeks in the first trimester.Had 2 private scans,don t smoke,didn t drink but still my daughter died.I feel also as a result of being allowed to go over by a week I feel my placenta was comprised.
Up to 41 weeks my daughter's heartbeat was loud and strong.Then it stopped.So very sad and unessacary .
I hope some of your queries have been addressed and you realise stillbirth can and does happen to anyone no one is excluded and it truely is the worst thing that can ever happen.Myself and my DH certainly can t imagine anything worst we will ever have to face.That also goes for all my family,friends and colleagues who also have all suffered the loss of our gorgeous Georgie.

CarGirl Fri 15-Apr-11 19:35:12

My friend whose stillbirth led to me finding out countthekicks, again absolutely no reason found through the postmortem, she didn't drink, had never smoked, was fit and healthy. It was heartbreaking and if we could half the number of 17 deaths per day it would be so fantastic.

I think the danger of using a doppler yourself is that you are not necessarily well enough trained/informed to notice that the heart rate isn't what it should be and can lead you to ignore other signs.

In isolation counting the kicks means nothing you need to know what is normal for your baby. With one of my pregnancies my baby was very quiet one morning so unusual for her - I was drinking iced water as quickly as I could, I was so fortunate she was obviously having a very quiet morning and it was a one off and the rest of the day she kicked as normal. Times like that should never be ignored.

Anyway a shameless bump.

onlyonehazelnut Fri 15-Apr-11 20:05:24

IAGTBF My son was perfect. All his medical problems are due to oxygen starvation. For some reason his blood hemorrhaged through the placenta into my bloodstream. This isn't uncommon, but usually it happens slowly and the baby simply replaces the lost blood the way a blood donor would. My son lost almost all his blood and couldn't replace it fast enough. His movements slowed but were still there. He was born by emcs soon after I arrived at the hospital, was transfused and given oxygen. Babies like him can and do survive if the mother goes to the hospital. Placental and cord problems at term are incomparable in terms of treatment to major organs not developing in the first 12 weeks.

My son's heartrate wasn't too bad. There were a few dips over the period I was monitored but it probably wouldn't have been picked up by a doppler.

I was a low risk pregnancy, young, non smoker, not overweight, don't drink, normal BP, previous healthy dcs.

CarGirl Fri 15-Apr-11 21:01:02

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Thanks so much for posting this link. I think it's criminal that there's so much emphasis on cot death but this is still such a taboo subject. I will definitely be monitoring kicks if I hopefully get that far. I'm so sorry for everyone's losses-thank you for sharing your stories.

moregranny Sun 17-Apr-11 16:50:58

Bump

CarGirl Sun 17-Apr-11 20:34:03

evening bump

caramelwaffle Mon 18-Apr-11 10:39:12

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Cattleprod Mon 18-Apr-11 10:59:34

ItsAllGoingToBeFine - I think with your first question you are not understanding the enormous differences between miscarriage and stillbirth.

With early miscarriages (before 12 weeks) there is often some genetic or chromosomal abnormality which means the embryo is not viable to continue it's journey to foetal and baby stage. So yes, the body rejects it either immediately or some weeks later (mmc). I suppose this is what you mean by 'natures way'. Having experienced this myself (as have many others with a rate of around 1 in 4 pregnancies) I know it is upsetting but it is in no way comparable to the heartbreache and trauma of stillbirth.

I don't know much about the most common causes of stillbirth but of the cases I know of in rl and on mn, very few seem to be because of any sort of abnormality in the baby, far more are problems with infections, placenta, blood pressure etc.

FluffyDonkey Mon 18-Apr-11 11:13:34

Thank you so much OP for starting this thread and thank you for everyone who has shared their stories.

I was only vaguely aware of the dangers - a midwife told me a couple of weeks ago that if you notice a reduction in babies movements to immediately go to the hospital. They prefer having 100 false alarms rather than 1 ignored problem. Before this I hadn't even considered the many things that could wrong for an otherwise healthy baby.

Am only 16 weeks so haven't started feeling kicks yet but will definately get a kicks bracelet - thanks for that link.

Am so sorry for your losses.

WiiUnfit Mon 18-Apr-11 19:20:00

So sorry to hear of your losses ladies but thank you for sharing your experiences, it will most certainly help to raise awareness.

This is a great cause & DP ordered me a Count the Kicks bracelet today.

CarGirl Mon 18-Apr-11 19:42:37

bump

LuckyWeKeptTheCot Mon 18-Apr-11 20:10:57

It is common I know 3 people who have had late (37 wks +) stillbirths. Hugely distressing and, as many others have said, nothing 'wrong' with any of the babies. I am pregnant with Number 4 and if I make it to the kicking stage will be taking note of this baby's pattern and going for help if it changes. So sorry for all of you who have dealt with such loss. I have seen friends struggle with people not understanding the magnitude of the grief.

caramelwaffle Mon 18-Apr-11 21:32:51

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BlondeG Mon 18-Apr-11 21:45:18

Thank you for this, my son died at 32 weeks in 2007 - he was absolutely perfect, in fact no reason was found.

If I had been more aware of his kicks and how they were slowing down, who knows - maybe I would have got to the hospital in time to get him monitored, and perhaps he would have survived.

Thank you for starting this thread.

Icoulddoitbetter Mon 18-Apr-11 21:54:52

I used a bracelet when I was pg with ds and need to dig it out now I'm pg again (though too early to feel any movement). I found it really helpful as it helped me focus.

In my borough the policy is to use a kick chart, record movements you feel between 9-5pm and it it's less than 10, go to hospital. I found this far too rigid and pretty stressful. I was at work at these times, I'm on the go all day and wasn't as aware as I was in early morning / evening of any movements. But I was told, it HAD to be between 9-5.

You become aware pretty quickly of your babies pattern, so surely it's better to follow that, rather than what I was told. I went in once, but all was fine thankfully.

We need to learn that paranoia is not really an issue in pregnancy in that if you feel something isn't quite right, it's fine to go straight to hospital and get it checked out!

BlondeG Mon 18-Apr-11 21:57:39

That's so true Icould, and something I wish more women were aware of.

All of my midwives in my subsequent pregnancies have said they would far, far rather someone went in to get checked 'unnecessarily' than they didn't go in as they thought they would be a nuisance.

CarGirl Tue 19-Apr-11 20:09:24

bump

loueytb3 Wed 20-Apr-11 09:58:03

Thank you for posting this. I spent yesterday in hospital being checked out because my normally very active baby barely kicked for 12 hours and this thread was one of the reasons I went in. Thankfully all seems fine but I am going back in for a scan today to check its growth as reduced movements are often a result of slowed growth.

cara2244 Wed 20-Apr-11 10:43:12

Louey, same as you - I went in last night after worrying for 3 days about reduced movement. All absolutely fine and I was a bit embarrased at having wasted the midwife's time, but they were so good about it and at no point did they suggest I'd done the wrong thing. It has to be a case of better safe than sorry with babies. And I agree with whoever said that still birth should be given as much publicity as cot death, people have to know the risks.

otchayaniye Wed 20-Apr-11 12:55:32

I haven't had a stillbirth and my heart goes out to anyone who has suffered so devastatingly. I wish you and your familes all the luck in the world.

I do wonder about late-stage monitoring in the UK though.

I had my daughter abroad (Singapore) and was jokingly mocked by friends back home that my having weekly or bi-monthly scans throughout my pregnancy (I also had a high risk of miscarriage in early pregnancy due to Asherman's Syndrome which my ob/gyn cured me of).

Of course, some of it was down to the hospitals wish to earn the Bupa dollar.

But if I hadn't been so frequently they may not have spotted the sudden onset of severe preeclampsia (was all absolutely fine and had low blood pressure) in week 35 which necessitated my daughter's swift removal within 24 hours. I hate to think what could have happened if I hadn't been scheduled for a check up.

I had no symptoms that I was aware of at the time -- just felt shit because I was still throwing up and it was so hot there. I wouldn't have felt the need to present myself.

And my daughter never kicked as she was frank breech, so counting movement wouldn't have helped.

This baby is a lot more active and I do feel kicks and will monitor them. Although I'm screamingly healthy I am 39 years old.

Louey and Cara - glad your babies are ok and yes you did the right thing. There is no room for error here. Midwives etc are paid to ensure the health of you and your baby - you are never wasting their time!

Marabou Wed 20-Apr-11 17:58:16

This may be a funny question, but is it just kicks that count? I mean do I count the different movements as well? I'm 36+3 weeks and I think my baby is so big he doesn't really kick that often anymore, but rather moves around etc.

The thing about kicks is that you know the baby is there making a purposeful movement. A baby who is in trouble is still going to shift around in there with your motion and surounded by fluid as they are. So you want to be feeling definate strong movements. It's about knowing what's normal for you though. Some babies do move less than others. Dd3 for me was very active, dd2 definately less so. some more advice here. If you are at all worried then ring your midwife and get checked out.

CarGirl Wed 20-Apr-11 19:59:05

Marabou saddly babies that have already died still move around in the womb because they are in fluid. Something I didn't find out until recently - presumably there is a different feel to definitive baby movement and natural fluid movement but that is why it's cound the kicks rather than just movement.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LF - what happened to you both was an accident. Beyond your control or influence. You didn't endanger your baby though I can understand why you might think that. Totally different scale of thing but I blamed myself bitterly for dd2's heart defect. On an intellectual level I know it wasn't my fault - but knowing and living that are two different things.

I agree about the brushing under the carpet thing. It seems to me that the number of stillbirths we have now is an expected norm - nobody is rioting about it. If that was mothers - or even babies after birth - dying in such numbers and with so little root cause analysis there would be outrage. Stillborn children matter.

caramelwaffle Wed 20-Apr-11 21:13:31

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CarGirl Wed 20-Apr-11 21:21:23

sad

skewiff Wed 20-Apr-11 22:07:36

sorry - don't know if I'm just being particularly stupid or fuzzy headed - but does it actually say anywhere on the website how many kicks you are supposed to be able to count?

I am now exactly 39 weeks. I have been worrying about reduced movement - but also realise that I am so tuned into DS all day that I am not thinking about monitoring movements at all.

How often should I be monitoring and how many kicks should there be?

I think the idea is you monitor it every day looking for 10-12 movements and get to know what your baby's 'norm' is. Then if you notice any difference from that you need to get checked.
For example - you might notice a lot of movement when you get in to bed or the bath?

caramelwaffle Thu 21-Apr-11 23:44:12

Bump

LuckyWeKeptTheCot Fri 22-Apr-11 12:50:14

What is the stillbirth rate in the UK?

CarGirl Fri 22-Apr-11 14:14:03

17 per day including those dying soon after birth

mummysleepy Fri 22-Apr-11 14:40:17

very helpful thread, so sorry to all those who hve lost babies

I just wanted to mention I have an app on my iphone called babybump pro which has a tool which allows me to count the kicks every day. it also logs all the previous ones so you can easily see if its taken signifcantly longer to get to 10 kicks. The app cost less than £3 and I try to do it at the same time each day, after my tea.

This is my 3rd pregnacy and I never bothered in first 2 but with all this publicity I am more aware of the risks so thanks to all who have contributed to this thread

sleepdodger Fri 22-Apr-11 15:13:59

I had reduced fm at 36?and 41 weeks
mw takes these things v seriously had scan at 38 and monitoring at 41.... They pulled forwards my induction date but as it was had the baby 24 hrs later!!
Point being no one minded checking cncerns at all

LuckyWeKeptTheCot Fri 22-Apr-11 16:41:34

Wow! That's much higher than I thought - even though I do know three people who have had stillbirths which is a lot I think. And what is the birth rate overall per day - live births - so I can get the perspective? (Am pregnant now - early days - still not at 12 weeks yet but thinking ahead.)

CarGirl Fri 22-Apr-11 16:48:22

2,167 apparantly

so 0.8% end up as stillbirth.

It sounds so low but cot death rate is less than 1 child per day yet there is so much literature and research into preventing it.

LuckyWeKeptTheCot Fri 22-Apr-11 16:59:15

It is quite high I think - and, as you say not talked about as much as cot death or miscarriage. The campaign to reduce cot death was one of the most successful public info campaigns ever - a huge reduction in cot death. Can MN begin a similar campaign re stillbirth do you think?

CarGirl Fri 22-Apr-11 17:04:13

It would be lovely if we could - Count the kicks already exists we just would need MN memeber to support and donate to it?

Chloe's Countthekicks are on facebook so if you use fb search for it and hit like and help spread awareness that way?

www.picbadges.com/count-the-kicks/1560079/

hope the link works

At your antenatal classes ask the MW to talk about it?

LuckyWeKeptTheCot Fri 22-Apr-11 17:06:13

Thanks! Good info and will spread the word for sure.

InMyPrime Fri 22-Apr-11 17:10:00

Thanks to everyone for bumping this thread and adding so much helpful information. The stories some of you have, while awful, are also really to know about so thanks so much for being willing to share your stories. I had no idea, for example, that a baby in distress could still be moving or even that a baby that had already demised could still seem to be moving because of the effect of the fluid. I am 17 weeks at the moment and still no sign of movement (unless some slight rumbling counts as movement??) but I'll be counting the kicks as well.

There is a common idea out there, shown by IAGTBF's comment, that stillbirth is something 'natural' or inevitable and nothing can be done to prevent it while the baby is in the womb. Even the midwife said this to me when I asked about later MC or stillbirth. 'It's very rare and if it happens it's usually inevitable so there's no point worrying'.

It's been very enlightening to read on this thread that there are numerous situations where stillbirth can in fact be prevented. I wish NHS staff were more honest with us as patients rather than trying to treat us as children and prevent us from 'worrying'.

I think part of the reason for the high stillbirth rate in the UK must surely be the lack of monitoring of pregnant women. You are only monitored or checked if you have an obvious complication and it's up to the patient to self-report any problems. Patients that are uninformed or less confident won't do this. There is barely any routine monitoring of pregnant women in the NHS unless they have some history that warrants it. I think this is terrible as it's clear from some of the stories here that a serious problem can emerge from left-field for even the healthiest patients - how is the average patient supposed to be aware of such a problem starting and when and what to report? I am amazed, for example, that I won't be seeing ANY healthcare professional at all in my pregnancy until 24 weeks, except for the 12 week and 20 week scans. In other countries, monitoring is more routine as otchayaniye pointed out. It's no wonder there are so many tragic losses.

Cattleprod Fri 22-Apr-11 17:13:45

The rate for white british people is 4.5 per 1000. Certain ethnic groups have higher rates of riskier premature births, and there are other factors like multiple births etc. which overall makes the rate in the UK something like 7.6 per thousand.

There's an article somewhere which has all the statistics - maybe someone can remember what it is and link to it. Some strange variables that you'd think wouldn't be important, like your risks are lower if you are married and your husband is middle management. confused

CarGirl Fri 22-Apr-11 17:20:18

I've been thinking about it today and wondering why has our culture become one of "once you are past x weeks you will have a healthy baby" I wonder if it's the good old media culture again. We seem to have unrealistic expectations, I know of so many people where late miscarriage, still birth or neonatal death never crossed their minds.

I was absolutely paranoid until I left hospital with a living baby (no idea why tbh!) but of course even them some babies turn out to not be healthy.

I wish we didn't live in this culture where we all think a bump is going to = happy mum and baby. Still birth aside it's certainly not always the case. People see a bump and assume you're thrilled to be pregnant and you will have a healthy bundle.

I think there will always be a level of stillbirth because bodies (babies or mums) go wrong, get ill but the current level is way too high. Other countries have reduced theirs and so can we.

anonandlikeit Fri 22-Apr-11 17:35:37

I Became aware at 28 wks of reduced movements in my second pregnancy.
I went to my GP who found a heartbeat BUT was concerned enough about the reduced movements to send me to the hospital.
My GP saved my sons life!

By the time i got to the hospital his heartrate was barley tracebale & falling off all the time, he was in sever distress & delivered immediately by Emcs.

He does have some long term disablitites which ina ll likelyhood is the result of his distress before he was born.

Had i gone to my Dr sooner maybe he would have escaped without disablitiy, who knows? Its something I will always wonder.

But I am grateful my gp took my concerns seriously givent hat I had no other symptoms beyond tiredness.

Count those kicks ladies!

Cattleprod Fri 22-Apr-11 17:36:19

I've found the article but it's a pdf so I don't know how to link to it.

If anyone's interested, it's titled 'Social Inequalities in Maternal and Perinatal Mortality', by Sarah Fisher, NCT New Digest 44, October 2008.

It's sobering reading though.

anonandlikeit Fri 22-Apr-11 17:36:45

tracebale?? Not sure what that means grin

CarGirl Fri 22-Apr-11 17:37:34

I wonder how the stats have changed in the last 2-3 years.

I wonder if you could ask Count the kicks to have it on their website?

Cattleprod Fri 22-Apr-11 17:44:08

anonandlikeit - it's stories like yours that make the campaign worthwhile.

Most babies will be born alive and well whether their kicks are counted or not. Sadly some babies won't make it even if their kicks are counted and monitored. But a few babies will have their lives saved because their mothers are aware of monitoring their movements and seeking help if something seems wrong. And those babies are the reason we need to make people aware.

CarGirl Fri 22-Apr-11 17:51:26

After scan reading the pdf even if you are white, married, husband in a decent job ie the least risk for stillbirth/neonatal death you are still more than 4 x likely to lose a child to stillbirth than cot death sad

Thank you for this thread. My dd stopped moving at 35 weeks and very nearly died. Due to many cock-ups and delays to her delivery she has ended up with cerebral palsy but to me it is almost a blessing as I know how close we were to losing her. I have been told countless times since by doctors and midwives that so many women do not want to bother anyone and so leave it 24-48 hours of reduced movement and by then it is just too late sad. Everyone says about how movement is reduced due to lack of room in the last few weeks which I think makes women feel they are fussing if they do ask for extra monitoring. I think we all feel guilty as we know there are never enough midwives so if you have someone checking you out you might well be denying a midwife to someone who really needs it.

I also think that home doppler use is useful to establish a heart beat but not to show how the baby is. My little girl had a heart beat on the home doppler so I felt reassured but when we got to hospital she was not having any variability in her heart rate which indicated problems.

I urge anyone who has any doubt at all about their babies' movement to go and get checked out. You may well save a life.

Thank you to all the mums who have lost their beautiful babes and have had the strength to come on here and share stories. I know everyday how close I came to losing my beautiful girl.

Cattleprod Fri 22-Apr-11 18:13:15

That's because, thankfully, the campaign to reduce cot death was very successful, taking the rates from, iirc, 1600 per year to 300. I don't know if those rates can be improved further, as I don't know the reasons for the 300.

Now stillbirth is more in the public eye because of tragedies experienced by Lily Allen and Amanda Holden, so now is the time to promote this campaign to raise awareness of what pregnant people can do to protect themselves, whether that be by monitoring movements or other things that research might flag up.

My knowledge of the subject has been improved significantly by info on mumsnet. I used to think a stillbirth happened at 40 weeks, you went into labour and sadly the baby was born lifeless, with no warning. Obviously it happens that way sometimes, but I didn't know about looking for signs earlier on and monitoring. Shockingly, the subject wasn't mentioned at my NCT classes even though one of the couples in the previous group had experienced it a few weeks previously. Obviously they didn't want to scare us but we need to be informed if there is something we can do to help prevent it and protect ourselves.

I think it's very striking that this thread has had so many posts on it from people saying 'I didn't know that' Just shows you what information is needed out there. I asked mnet hq to consider some sort of notice at the top of all pregnancy threads - apparently they would discuss it when all back in the office. I'll give them the weekend and then chase them! grin

Cattleprod Fri 22-Apr-11 18:31:30

I'll definitely be making myself a kick counting bracelet in the next few weeks!! grin

LuckyWeKeptTheCot Fri 22-Apr-11 18:43:12

The three women I know who had stillbirths all knew in advance - they went for a routine check-up at 38 weeks, 39 and 41 weeks and the midwife immediately went into action because she couldn't find a heartbeat. In all three cases the baby had already died. I don't know about the kicks but every case absolutely heart-rending. Not least for the children who were waiting for their new brother/sister to arrive. In a way, that's what frightens me most - having to explain to the children.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CarGirl Fri 22-Apr-11 22:04:02

Have found the main facebook website

www.facebook.com/#!/ukcountthekicks

you can like it and add a little countthekicks to your profile picture

pureequeen Sat 23-Apr-11 13:21:49

Just wanted to thank the OP for raising this. A good friend lost her baby at 40 weeks last year - as well as two other women at the London hospital she was at within a 12 hour period. I kept on thinking I would read about it in the local news but when I did a bit of research I realised how common it was (albeit unusual for one hospital to have 3 still births in 12 hours).

CarGirl Sat 23-Apr-11 15:33:48

smile

caramelwaffle Sat 23-Apr-11 18:56:02

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CarGirl Sat 23-Apr-11 20:21:22

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dikkertjedap Sat 23-Apr-11 22:12:12

Agree, very important especially when you go overdue. I was sure that I was two weeks overdue but midwife stuck to her calculation. I knew dd was not moving much anymore and had to fight for an induction through getting a letter from a private obstetrician who basically said this baby needs to be born today - he saved dd's life.

sprinkles77 Sat 23-Apr-11 22:42:32

I went to labour ward at 38 weeks as I'd noticed no FM for 3 hours at a time of night when DS was usually very active. MWs were great, DS born by EMCS, all fine. I'd been monitored throughout 3rd trimester due to me being small, but my reduced fluid levels and small baby (5lb11) was never picked up. I think if they had been he would have been born earlier. Me noticing reduced FM probably saved his life. I recognised a change in his pattern of movement rather than the actual number.

CarGirl Sun 24-Apr-11 21:32:51

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Blobby11 Mon 25-Apr-11 15:07:29

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louisesh Mon 25-Apr-11 21:16:54

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CarGirl Tue 26-Apr-11 20:09:53

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CarGirl Wed 27-Apr-11 20:22:31

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CarGirl Wed 27-Apr-11 21:53:07

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LuckyWeKeptTheCot Thu 28-Apr-11 14:59:17

Just had a booking in app. and talked to the two midwives about this. They said they are shocked by the number of women they deal with for whom any of this kind of info 'just doesn't register'. I was told one woman had felt no kicks for 10 days before she came in - not a good outcome but the midwife couldn't believe the mum had left it so long. She said it's because it was Christmas and she was busy. !! The midwife I had feels we don't monitor enough and she books in more visits than the recommended number and puts PR for Patient Request so 'she doesn't get into trouble'. Good to know she has that attitude for me, but worrying she has to do that - as a systemic problem.

caramelwaffle Thu 28-Apr-11 16:29:46

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Good to see you have an "on the ball" midwife

CarGirl Thu 28-Apr-11 19:40:48

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CarGirl Thu 28-Apr-11 21:27:04

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CarGirl Fri 29-Apr-11 11:28:49

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caramelwaffle Fri 29-Apr-11 14:12:43

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Want2bSupermum Fri 29-Apr-11 16:23:17

I am in the US and the obn group I am with ask me to email them once a week with the time it takes for the baby to complete 15 kicks. So far no problems but I am shocked to hear that kick counts are not done in the UK.

It is a very basic test (count the number of kicks, I do mine after dinner) and the midwives/doctors should be talking about kick counts to everyone going into their 3rd trimester. I had never heard of kick counts before and it was my doctor who educated me about this test. I have been told that if I don't count 15 kicks within the hour that I should call my obn group to alert them and go straight to the hospital.

I am also surprised to hear that 34wk scans are not standard. The 34wk scan is very important as it shows up any potential problems before you go into labour, such as the cord being around the neck. It takes 5 mins and avoids the panic the mother must go through with an emcs.

caramelwaffle Fri 29-Apr-11 16:48:24

The U.K. (and perhaps Eire ?) is/are clearly far behind the U.S. in this matter.

Thank you for that update want2be - something for us here to consider.

frasersmummy Fri 29-Apr-11 17:23:56

its atrocious that there is so little publicity of count the kicks or the why 17 campaign ran by sands....

i thought stillbirths were something that happened in the dark ages or in 3rd wold countries with no real medical care

Until it happened to us!!!!

my little boy had stopped growing but it wasnt picked up .. proper scans between 30 and 36 weeks would have picked this up and my eldest would be here now

I know it wouldnt erradicate all stillbirths but I do believe that 2 growth scans between 30 and 36 weeks would help reduce this number

My little boy stopped moving at 39weeks and 1 day. We went to the hospital and they picked up a heartbeat and delcared the baby was fine .. sent me home. The next day he still wasnt moving and the bump felt completly different. I went to the hospital again and he had died

I was induced 2 days later and our perfect formly but small son was still born with 3 days to term

caramelwaffle Fri 29-Apr-11 17:25:43

Frasersmummy - sorry for your loss (( ))

frasersmummy Fri 29-Apr-11 17:26:40

supermum I could be wrong but I assume you the 34 week scan is standard in the us as you pay for your health care

In the uk (even if you can afford it ) private healthcare wont cover pregnancy so we are reliant on the nhs which as we all know are stretched to the lmit

Want2bSupermum Fri 29-Apr-11 18:20:31

frasersmummy - Very sorry to read of your loss.

I know that here in New Jersey the 34wk scan is standard regardless of your insurance. Pregnancy is covered by the state no matter what your immigration status. There are probably states which don't cover it though.

After living in the US and Canada I am not impressed with the NHS. After I arrived here I had all sorts of problems that had never been seen to in the UK. It is a shame that medical professionals in charge of care standards are content with aiming for the lowest levels. Much of the care doesn't actually cost much money, such as a kick counts and prenatal vitamins, but the application of this care does have a very positive outcome for the mother and child.

Disclaimer - I hear others tell me all the time that prenatals are a waste of time. Well I ran out and didn't take any for a week. I noticed a huge difference. My energy levels dipped at 27wks and my obn switched me onto another prenatal and I am no longer feeling so rotten. Also, if you suffer from constipation they give you and extra dose of the oil which works wonders.

CarGirl Fri 29-Apr-11 21:40:05

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frasersmummy Sat 30-Apr-11 09:33:50

please read this thread

moregranny Sat 30-Apr-11 17:20:32

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CarGirl Sat 30-Apr-11 17:23:23

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CarGirl Sat 30-Apr-11 20:20:32

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caramelwaffle Mon 02-May-11 11:44:24

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CarGirl Mon 02-May-11 19:50:27

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WiiUnfit Tue 03-May-11 10:30:37

CarGirl, just wanted to say well done for promoting such an important issue. I ordered & have since received my Count the Kicks wristband, it's great. smile

CarGirl Tue 03-May-11 21:27:19

Thank you wii, everyone please keep this bumped

onesuzymac Wed 04-May-11 08:31:46

Friends of ours had a stillbirth last year, so this is a topic close to my heart - thanks for bringing it to everyone's attention and for sharing. It's amazing how much more aware of movement I was just reading everyone's comments and stories...

louisesh Wed 04-May-11 11:46:16

Please all read it's so important.

CarGirl Wed 04-May-11 21:11:48

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moregranny Thu 05-May-11 10:29:01

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CarGirl Thu 05-May-11 21:24:16

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caramelwaffle Fri 06-May-11 01:04:59

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CarGirl Fri 06-May-11 18:13:12

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moregranny Sat 07-May-11 08:55:29

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CarGirl Sat 07-May-11 12:30:27

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FluffyDonkey Sat 07-May-11 13:30:36

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FluffyDonkey Sat 07-May-11 13:39:23

Quick question - can the bracelets be bought anywhere apart from on the internet? Anyone seen them in the shops?

CarGirl Sat 07-May-11 16:43:40

sorry no idea!

CarGirl Sat 07-May-11 20:51:35

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BuffyFairy Sat 07-May-11 21:11:06

Just wanted to say thanks for this thread. I'm 19 weeks with DC1 and I'll definitely be looking out for kick frequency / pattern as soon as I can feel them properly. I've learnt a lot from reading this thread, it's amazing how little the books and nhs mention stillbirth. So sorry to those who have lost their children, I can't imagine how awful it is but thanks for sharing your experiences and advice.

louisesh Sat 07-May-11 22:58:44

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moregranny Sun 08-May-11 21:35:23

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CarGirl Sun 08-May-11 21:52:38

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caramelwaffle Sun 08-May-11 22:30:02

Please read

oriordankt Mon 09-May-11 15:53:56

Thabnks for this information. I'm at 31 weeks and hadn't started counting as my MW hadn't said anything but the books all do. I'll be starting now. Esp as I went into a hospital earlier in the pregnancy because I didn't feel any movement and as soon as they put the listener on, she moved. I felt so stupid. We British really do have the "don't want to bother them" attitude.

CarGirl Mon 09-May-11 18:04:44

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CarGirl Mon 09-May-11 20:32:48

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Thornykate Tue 10-May-11 07:44:45

Just giving the thread a little bump this morning. I don't know the circumstances surrounding Kelly Brook tragically losing her LO but it is another awful reminder of how fragile pregnancy can be sad

Melty Tue 10-May-11 08:14:32

My friend had reduced movements at 37 weeks, was seen by MW & OB at her routine visit and sent home with a kick chart. It happened again 2 days later, and she was seen by MW and sent home again. She was a bit worried, called a different MW friend, who immediately kicked up a stink as protocol had not been followed- she should have been seen by a doc with a view to early section. She was brought in, and was sectioned the next morning. Thankfully she now has a healthy DS2.

The Royal College of Obs & Gyn has released new guidance this year on treatment of reduced movement:
RCOG New Guidance

caramelwaffle Tue 10-May-11 11:34:34

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moregranny Tue 10-May-11 18:09:27

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Bartimaeus Tue 10-May-11 18:55:35

Just bought a count the kicks bracelet

Thanks for the guidance Melty

CarGirl Tue 10-May-11 19:54:49

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CarGirl Tue 10-May-11 21:01:08

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titferbrains Tue 10-May-11 21:35:56

Good to read this thread tho I will go to bed with a heavy heart, very sad for all the people who lost their babies.

I am going to find out if I can request a late scan betw 30-34 wks and if the hospital won't do one, I will get a private one. Good to know that this may be useful in preventing problems later. Will be ordering a bracelet too!

SoBroken Wed 11-May-11 13:32:57

I'm sorry if this in extremely stupid question, but I want to get it right as I have just ordered a bracelet and am planning to start counting the kicks after reading this thread.

When you are actually counting the kicks, do you count each individual movement you feel, or bouts of movement? My unborn DS has several quiet periods during the day, presumably asleep, and then several bouts of kicking/movement. These are obviously stronger when I'm sitting or lying in certain positions.

Should I monitor each kick within those times, or each period of activity? Thanks smile

caramelwaffle Wed 11-May-11 14:57:46

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louisesh Wed 11-May-11 18:28:35

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CarGirl Wed 11-May-11 19:29:34

SoBroken from memory there is more information on the website, if it's not clear please ask them or your midwife, I'm not medically trained.

I think the idea is you learn what is your normal pattern, so how many and how long the quiet periods and when they are and then how many kicks in their active period type of thing.

moregranny Wed 11-May-11 21:49:19

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caramelwaffle Thu 12-May-11 05:10:24

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Beesok Thu 12-May-11 08:00:52

bumping up! smile

moregranny Thu 12-May-11 14:54:57

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moregranny Thu 12-May-11 20:36:40

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Bartimaeus Fri 13-May-11 09:20:24

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wolfhound Fri 13-May-11 10:24:25

Have just booked a private 34 week scan after reading this! And bought a 'count the kicks' bracelet. Like one of the posters further up here though, I'm not clear whether you count 'bouts of kicking' or 'individual kicks' (there are usually several per bout). The Count the Kicks website doesn't really make it clear either. If anyone who uses one of these bracelets can talk it through that would be helpful. Also, with this pg, it's hard to tell the difference between a 'kick' (which you should count) and a 'movement' (which you shouldn't) Oh dear...

Wolfhound - probably the best thing to do is chat to your midwife about this and see what she suggests. FWIW my understanding is a minimum of about 10 kicks in two hours. The bracelet will be helpful though because as I understand it, it will help you identify your baby's usual pattern. If your baby bounces around a lot over a short time then goes quiet for a bit then bounces again that's fine - that's his or her pattern. Changes in that could alert you to a potential problem. Babies sleep in utero but just like babies on the outside smile they don't sleep for all that long at a time. There is no natural 'going quiet' phase before labour either - that's one myth you hear quoted a lot.

CarGirl Fri 13-May-11 19:57:15

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wolfhound Sat 14-May-11 07:34:40

Thanks northernlurker. Will speak to MW at next appointment. Didn't worry about this at all with first two pregnancies, but somehow worrying more with this one, perhaps because I know it's my last. With DS2, when I was 39+5, I realised I hadn't felt him move for 24 hrs. Went to hospital and the MW (who was lovely) monitored - all was fine, he immediately started kicking. She said the thing about quiet before labour, and in my case it was 'true' - he was born a few hours later. But perhaps coincidence rather than a 'getting ready'.

CarGirl Sat 14-May-11 12:17:54

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Overreactionoftheweek Sat 14-May-11 13:45:08

I'm another one who had no idea about this until reading the thread - thanks so much for highlighting it and my heart goes out to those of you who have had to go through this.

I have an anterior plancenta (and am only 17 weeks at the mo) but will definitely be counting the kicks when the time comes.

CarGirl Sat 14-May-11 18:20:05

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CarGirl Sat 14-May-11 21:15:06

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caramelwaffle Sat 14-May-11 23:13:38

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ballstoit Sun 15-May-11 08:17:28

DD2 was induced on due date after the second bout of reduced movements in 2 days. When she arrived (delivered with forceps as her heart rate dropped as I started to push) her cord was wrapped around her neck 3 times.

It's only luck that the the pregnancy book I had told me to contact MW immediately. I've added Count the Kicks and Why 17 to my Facebook page.

Thanks Car Girl

brandnewme Sun 15-May-11 08:35:47

well done for highlighting this.......I'm always amazed at the laid back attitude many mums seem to have when pg.......or perhaps I'm just a paranoid nervous wreck....but also know of too many families (including ourselves) that have lost babies through a variety of reasons sad

NEVER feel like your wasting a MW or hospitals time - your health and well-being and that of the baby is what's important. I couldn't care less if they thought i was an over-anxious mother if it kept my baby safe.

Bump and I have again asked HQ to consider some sort of message about fetal movements at the top of the pregnancy section.

CarGirl Sun 15-May-11 19:11:04

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louisesh Sun 15-May-11 19:48:46

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moregranny Mon 16-May-11 08:56:45

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caramelwaffle Mon 16-May-11 10:53:43

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frasersmummy Mon 16-May-11 11:01:35

given the the thread in activ convos just now from someone worried about lack of movement there should be something at the top of the pregnancy board and its a real shame this thread isnt getting more attention

caramelwaffle Mon 16-May-11 11:02:41

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norwegianwood Mon 16-May-11 11:20:50

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buttonmoon78 Mon 16-May-11 12:34:14

I agree - there should be a banner across all pg threads.

I'm v blase (whilst remaining sensible) about most things in pg - food, alcohol etc. But I have never been blase about fetal movement.

TBH I rarely have to stop and count as this one (#4, 29+3) is mega active and breech, so every kick I know about it! But I still have a good quiet time with it every evening. I call it my monitoring time, but I think it's a lovely way of getting to know baby too. We play bump games and push eachother.

I've never worried about cot death - I do what I can to comply with all the recommendations. But stillbirth scares the living daylights out of me. It seems so random, like lightening. To think of getting all that way (pg is not my ideal state so 40wks is like the end of a marathon) and then losing your baby is horrific. I've experienced an early mc (8-10wks) which was pretty awful but nothing like I imagine stillbirth to be.

The thought of having to explain to my older dcs if it happened makes me feel a bit cold and sick.

Keep bumping this thread - as you say, if it helps only one then it's worth it.

moregranny Mon 16-May-11 19:25:14

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moregranny Mon 16-May-11 22:10:52

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caramelwaffle Tue 17-May-11 08:59:41

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moregranny Tue 17-May-11 16:09:39

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RedHeels Tue 17-May-11 19:28:55

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bettyboo83 Tue 17-May-11 19:35:47

Thanks OP, I'm 27 weeks preganant and have just ordered my counting wristband and one for my pregnant friend too smile Bump, bump, bump!!!

moregranny Wed 18-May-11 12:00:08

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CarGirl Wed 18-May-11 20:44:58

thank you for all the bumping whilst I've not been around smile

caramelwaffle Thu 19-May-11 10:09:22

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CarGirl Thu 19-May-11 19:18:46

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CarGirl Thu 19-May-11 21:39:35

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CarGirl Fri 20-May-11 19:04:44

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caramelwaffle Sat 21-May-11 02:13:59

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louisesh Sat 21-May-11 08:08:48

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anniebabe Sat 21-May-11 17:59:18

Hello,
More research is needed into Stillbirth and pregnancies that do not go to term. I live in Yorkshire and have the time to raise funds to go towards this research.
If you can chat to me this would help to get data together and form a body of likeminded people to get this tragedy more high profile.
Thank you
anniebabe

CarGirl Sat 21-May-11 18:51:09

anniebabe

I'm sure count the kicks would be thrilled to hear from you, I think they are trying to have a network of co-ordinators all over the country

Please contact them via their website, I believe it is all volunteer ran

countthekicks.org.uk/

CarGirl Sat 21-May-11 22:00:40

Grazia & SANDS have a petition going - stop the stillbirth scandal

www.gopetition.com/petitions/stop-the-stillbirth-scandal-join-grazia-and-sands-cam.html

CarGirl Sun 22-May-11 13:40:52

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CarGirl Sun 22-May-11 18:16:38

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Signed, and linked to it on Facebook.

TeamLemon Sun 22-May-11 18:35:39

I've just ordered kick counting bracelets for all the pg ladies I know.

CarGirl Sun 22-May-11 20:39:59

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caramelwaffle Sun 22-May-11 23:02:55

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moregranny Mon 23-May-11 18:17:20

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moregranny Tue 24-May-11 12:59:48

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CarGirl Tue 24-May-11 21:25:14

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moregranny Wed 25-May-11 15:10:22

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TeamLemon Wed 25-May-11 18:11:32

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caramelwaffle Wed 25-May-11 20:07:19

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perrinelli Wed 25-May-11 20:35:37

I just wanted to ask - if you contact the hospital/midwife about reduced movement, and then the scan and do doppler and everything looks fine, does that mean you can be totally reassured? For how long?

I felt that there had been reduced movement after starting on some medication for high blood pressure, everything looked fine but a few days later and it's hard to be sure, but I don't think the movement has totally picked up to what it was before, though I don't think it's less than it was when i went for the scan a few days ago. Growth looked fine (I had IUGR last time), and the sonographer also said the baby was making breathing movements which was a good sign and that blood flow was fine. Just wondered how long this means I can relax for!

darlingred Wed 25-May-11 21:14:30

Bump

moregranny Thu 26-May-11 12:10:22

bump and please dont forget that you also need to be swabbed at 35 -37 weeks for group b strep.

welshpenguin Thu 26-May-11 18:26:38

Hi everyone

I've been guilty of lurking here all the way throughout my pregnancy and have appreciated so much all the fantastic advice and information all you ladies have provided. I've come out from lurking to add to this really important thread.

Our lovely DS was born by emcs a month premature 4 weeks ago and he's here because I went and got reduced movements checked out at the hospital. I was 35 +6 and also felt that I was bothering the midwifes about nothing, I'd read that babies stop moving about so much as you get near to the end etc but something didn't feel right. My DP made me go and get checked out and I am eternally grateful that we did, there were some major complications going on and they did a emcs there and then.

Please please if you feel anything isn't quite right, go and get checked out, don't put it off or see how you feel in the morning etc, if we'd waited like I wanted to I fear our story would be very different.

AngelGeorgie Thu 26-May-11 20:27:25

Bump please read .

moregranny Fri 27-May-11 17:08:34

Bump

CarGirl Fri 27-May-11 20:00:33

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moregranny Sat 28-May-11 09:41:22

bump

moregranny Sat 28-May-11 13:56:36

bump

CarGirl Sat 28-May-11 20:12:34

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AngelGeorgie Sun 29-May-11 10:12:28

Bump

CarGirl Sun 29-May-11 13:43:54

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moregranny Sun 29-May-11 19:39:24

bump

caramelwaffle Mon 30-May-11 01:00:43

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CarGirl Mon 30-May-11 11:38:14

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CarGirl Mon 30-May-11 17:14:41

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caramelwaffle Mon 30-May-11 19:37:56

Bump

Please read.

caramelwaffle Mon 30-May-11 19:39:40

Congratulations, WelshPenguin.

Bump. I haven't heard anything from Mnet HQ re putting some sort of message at the top of this section. I will report this message as a bump for them too grin

Welshpenguin - congratulations smile - your story is exactly why we need to keep talking about this issue.

CarGirl Mon 30-May-11 20:38:33

I've started a new thread in chat as well

I know - just x posted there as well!

caramelwaffle Tue 31-May-11 00:15:20

Bump

bump

caramelwaffle Wed 01-Jun-11 12:22:49

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emmazed Thu 02-Jun-11 17:09:11

thank you for highlighting this important issue. i will get a bracelet and will arrange a private scan for the last trimester. when is the ideal time? 32 weeks or later?

caramelwaffle Thu 02-Jun-11 22:33:51

emmazed - the important thing is to take notice of movement changes/patterns up to Full Term.

If you are going to arrange a 3rd Trimester scan then, in my opinion, later than 32 weeks would be more reassuring.

Good luck with everything.

AngelGeorgie Fri 03-Jun-11 07:54:25

Bump

bump

AngelGeorgie Sun 05-Jun-11 09:17:09

Bump

Bump

caramelwaffle Tue 07-Jun-11 20:19:22

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CarGirl Tue 07-Jun-11 22:20:27

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caramelwaffle Wed 08-Jun-11 23:39:22

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CarGirl Thu 09-Jun-11 21:43:14

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janedoe25 Fri 10-Jun-11 09:34:58

bump

CarGirl Fri 10-Jun-11 21:45:33

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CarGirl Sat 11-Jun-11 18:43:32

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CarGirl Sat 11-Jun-11 21:25:55

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CarGirl Sun 12-Jun-11 19:28:26

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CarGirl Sun 12-Jun-11 19:58:48

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caramelwaffle Mon 13-Jun-11 16:54:30

Very important - please read

CarGirl Mon 13-Jun-11 18:44:07

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darlingred Tue 14-Jun-11 19:09:35

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darlingred Tue 14-Jun-11 19:10:05

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CarGirl Tue 14-Jun-11 22:45:41

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caramelwaffle Wed 15-Jun-11 13:50:31

Please read

darlingred Wed 15-Jun-11 17:35:25

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CarGirl Wed 15-Jun-11 20:20:10

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CarGirl Wed 15-Jun-11 22:41:58

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Curlybug Thu 16-Jun-11 09:43:10

I have just lost my baby Alexander at 41+1 weeks last week. 7lb 3oz and perfect. Lots of curly hair.
He apparently died sometime in the week before - heart monitoring 1 week before was ok. We had noticed no movements the night before, but tried to convince ourselves that there was something. It might have been even earlier, but we were occupied (like you are). We didn't bother anyone.
It might be the placenta, or an infection now, but we are waiting for all the tests to get back and also hoping to see my baby again today.
He is a real person and I won't 'get over it' like some people have advised me to do. 'You can always have another' doesn't really cut it when I still feel pregnant because I'm still 2 stone up and have no baby but a nursery full of stuff.

oh curly I am so sorry sad. It is so utterly unfair, your poor baby boy. People can say some really stupid and hurtful things, of course you won't "get over it". 4 days after losing my daughter at 20 weeks (and 6 days before her burial) I was told I just had to "put it behind me and move on". Nope. And another baby could never replace your Alexander, nor I'm sure would you want them too.

Can I invite you to the bereaved mothers thread? Lots of different ages and circumstances and stages of grief, but we all have lost the most precious things in our lives and do our best to support each other.

Love to you x

Curlybug Thu 16-Jun-11 10:41:34

Thank you x

caramelwaffle Thu 16-Jun-11 10:53:20

Oh, no. So, so sorry curlybug.
Please do join with the bereavement threads.

No - you will not just "get over it" however - eventually - the pain will ease.

CarGirl Thu 16-Jun-11 19:44:59

Oh Curlybug so sad to read about your Alexander, all I can offer are my condolences sad

CarGirl Thu 16-Jun-11 19:58:04

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CarGirl Thu 16-Jun-11 20:14:20

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mrsrvc Thu 16-Jun-11 21:27:24

Curlybug.
I am so sorry for your loss. I know only too well how difficult these first few days, weeks, and months are. Whatever happens to you in the future you will never "get over" this, but I promise that the pain does ease.

Please get in touch with your local SANDS group. They have been a lifeline for me and a lot of other bereaved mums that I have met.

I know it might seem a bit pragmatic, but I had two books which I found very helpful:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Empty-Cradle-Broken-Heart-Surviving/dp/1555913024
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0415252768/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1?pf_rd_p=103612307&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=1555913024&pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_r=0ET85JS5G0Q9W5FEARBC

My thoughts are with you and your precious son.
xx

mrsrvc Thu 16-Jun-11 21:27:56
BizzeeBee Fri 17-Jun-11 09:25:09

Curlybug, I am very sorry for your loss.

I was looking to bump this thread because it's important. When I was at 41 weeks I noticed that I had reduced movement during the morning and the usual tricks of cold drinks and ice cream didn't produce any kicks. I was having pains (now know they were contractions) so just put it down to that making the baby quiet. I left it until late in the evening before calling the hospital. I went in for monitoring and it turned out I was in labour but the baby was distressed.

I ended up having an EMCS. Baby's apgar scores were 1 and then 2 at 5 mins. Luckily he rapidly improved and he was brought to me after one hour and although poorly for a few days from the birth, didn't need to go to scbu.

It turned out my baby was clearly distressed, and it scares me to think what the outcome would have been if I'd ignored the lack of movement and stayed to labour at home as long as possible.

If you think you have reduced movement, don't ignore it and get it checked out.

caramelwaffle Sat 18-Jun-11 10:24:52

Bump

CarGirl Sat 18-Jun-11 20:52:48

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CarGirl Sat 18-Jun-11 21:28:40

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CarGirl Sun 19-Jun-11 10:37:10

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CarGirl Sun 19-Jun-11 19:06:25

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CarGirl Sun 19-Jun-11 19:10:12

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caramelwaffle Mon 20-Jun-11 01:09:13

Very important

Please read

CarGirl Mon 20-Jun-11 18:02:36

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CarGirl Mon 20-Jun-11 18:57:16

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caramelwaffle Mon 20-Jun-11 19:44:12

Please do "count those kicks"

Curlybug Tue 21-Jun-11 21:05:07

Thank you. x
I have got those books now and got in touch with Sands.
The bereavement officer has been useless though and said my baby boy was 'just jelly and rubber' so having problems with the funeral plans for thursday. Generally coping.
Thank you again x

CarGirl Wed 22-Jun-11 20:14:55

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CarGirl Wed 22-Jun-11 21:21:52

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CarGirl Wed 22-Jun-11 21:54:26

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NatzCNL Thu 23-Jun-11 07:24:29

CarGirl, thank you for continuing to bring this to the top of the pregnancy board. I personally have not suffered a still birth (however my sister lost her precious daughter at birth 2 years ago) and my heart goes out to each of you who have, especially to those so rececntly bereved.
I am a facebooker and will endevour to post the link to Count the Kicks at least once a week (after your message on page 1 or 2 about how to spread the info if finished having children and not knowing any pregnant women). I am pregnant with DD3 and have been having awful dreams about still birth recently, and agree that it should not be a taboo subject. The more awareness raised the better xx

curly what an awful thing that bereavement officer said. They are completely wrong and out of order.
I hope today has been as gentle and fitting as it could be x

caramelwaffle Fri 24-Jun-11 14:16:05

Very important -please read.

CarGirl Fri 24-Jun-11 19:21:31

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CarGirl Fri 24-Jun-11 22:16:19

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CarGirl Fri 24-Jun-11 22:56:07

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CarGirl Sat 25-Jun-11 13:58:18

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CarGirl Sat 25-Jun-11 22:12:43

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CarGirl Sun 26-Jun-11 19:10:22

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Kingsroadie Sun 26-Jun-11 21:57:04

Thank you for this thread. I have not experienced stillbirth myself but know several who have. It is just an awful awful thing to happen and I cannot imagine what you all must be going through. You are so brave. There was an article in the papers a few weeks/months ago about it and a blog written by a girl whose son died just days before his due date. She was also on the radio I believe. Not sure if she is on here. It's called Still Born, Still Standing. It may or may not help some of you who have experienced a stillbirth.

I will certainly be counting the kicks next time, assuming we are lucky enough to have another. It's such an important message.

caramelwaffle Sun 26-Jun-11 23:05:54

Very true, Kings...

Please all read...

CarGirl Tue 28-Jun-11 19:54:44

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CarGirl Wed 29-Jun-11 21:14:04

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caramelwaffle Wed 29-Jun-11 22:27:32

Very important; please read.

KaraJS Thu 30-Jun-11 07:51:12

Hi I would like to raise awareness of cord prolapse, this happened to me in hospital a week after my waters broke early at 32 weeks due to the baby lying in the transverse position, although we knew he would be born by csection when I started having contractions which were very mild the mw refused to check if I was dialating because of the risk of infection, half an hour later the cord prolapsed and it turned out I was 4 cms dialated, luckily thanks to the quick response of the mw and docs my son was born alive and apart from having to be ventilated for a few hours is well, if this happens to anyone else demand that they check to see if you are dilating, apart from the day I got into hospital no one bothered! Even tho the risk of this happening is low, The risk of stillbirth due to cord prolapse is pretty high around 91/1000 yet it is never mentioned

caramelwaffle Thu 30-Jun-11 17:29:45

Thank you for raising awareness Kara: if it makes one woman Demand immeadiate attention and help it will save one, possible two lives.

CarGirl Thu 30-Jun-11 18:49:49

bump

Kara thank you for sharing, I was clearly very lucky when I had my 2 ARMs the risk of cord prolapse and being rushed for section were explained to me!

CarGirl Fri 01-Jul-11 20:13:38

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Thornykate Mon 04-Jul-11 23:08:04

Hi just bumping thread, also there is a charity auction tomorrow on facebook for Count The Kicks. There are some great items on there none of which look too expensive (bibs, cupcakes etc) & bids start at £1

Please take a look if you are on facebook here

Thornykate Tue 05-Jul-11 18:27:58

Feel free to keep bumping this!

Beesok Wed 06-Jul-11 17:26:41

Bumping up! Just started to feel proper kicks last week and will be def. reading the link very closely again! smile

caramelwaffle Fri 08-Jul-11 21:36:06

Bump

janedoe25 Mon 11-Jul-11 07:56:06

bump

bump

caramelwaffle Mon 11-Jul-11 22:45:43

Bump

caramelwaffle Tue 12-Jul-11 21:20:54

Bump

CBear6 Tue 12-Jul-11 21:32:58

Bump.

Was at MAU today after a lack of movements. They were lovely and DD was fine, just kicking towards my back. The relief was immense though and the MW said to always go in if at all worried for any reason.

caramelwaffle Tue 12-Jul-11 21:40:38

That's good news Cbear6 x

Curlybug Sun 24-Jul-11 19:39:39

Good news CBear6 - keep checking x x
We are doing ok generally now - the funeral wasnt quite as bad as expected, though didnt feel like an ending at all. Much love to all those who have helped me here and hugs to all in similar situation. xxxxxx

pootlebug Sun 24-Jul-11 21:49:15

I have two children and considered myself reasonably well informed about pregnancy, but have read many things on this thread that I was ignorant about.

Thank you to the OP and those who have shared their expertise. My heart goes out to those of you who lost your babies. I can't begin to imagine.

Beesok Sun 24-Jul-11 21:56:41

Bump

Glad to hear you're OK Cbear! Had the same this morning - went in as I hadn't felt her move according to her pattern and drinking cold juice etc didn't produce any "reaction", they monitored me for 20 minutes and I actually apologized for being silly (of course, she kicked vigorously 5 mins into the trace ...) but they were lovely and said to come whenever I feel something is not right.

caramelwaffle Mon 25-Jul-11 08:28:54

Bump.

My thoughts are with you, curlybug.
Glad things are becoming ok for you.

Curlybug Mon 25-Jul-11 12:15:21

Thank you x

SoTiredoftheWheelsontheBus Mon 25-Jul-11 13:07:08

I've just bought my wristband. I'm 20 weeks with dc2, have only been feeling flutterings so far, but the placenta is at the front which I think cushions the movement a bit more (I didn't feel much before 24 weeks with ds).

Thanks to the OP for bringing the awareness campaign forward.

To Curlybug and the others who have lost their babies, I don't know what to say, as I can't imagine what you have gone through. I am so sorry though.

caramelwaffle Thu 28-Jul-11 00:03:10

Bump

Very important. Please read.

Curlybug Wed 03-Aug-11 22:10:49

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caramelwaffle Thu 04-Aug-11 23:07:07

Bump

(hope you are well curlybug)

CBear6 Wed 17-Aug-11 10:27:40

Thought this could use a bump, wish MnHQ would sticky it to the top of the forum

caramelwaffle Thu 18-Aug-11 00:27:52

Bump

(Yes; that would be a good idea cbear6)

kri5ty Thu 18-Aug-11 07:43:17

Just a quick question girls... im 23 weeks, and have only felt movements the past 2 weeks due to my placenta being at the front, the past 2 days i dont remember feeling anything... should i ring the triage unit on my maternity ward, or is it still early in the pregnancy??

caramelwaffle Thu 18-Aug-11 10:28:19

Yes. Phone them this morning.

Drink some ice cold water and gently poke your abdomen; note which movements occur.

Do not feel as if you are imposing. Do not be fobbed off.

Good luck with today.

caramelwaffle Tue 23-Aug-11 08:43:13

Bump

RebeccaMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 23-Aug-11 11:46:30

Hi all,

and a huge blush that it has taken us sooooo long to post.

We are looking at all of our section headers and some will be updated over the coming months to include further info, links, advice etc. We have noted this thread and will have a look at all of the links and information posted when we update the pregnancy section header.

Thank you for a fantastic idea and for your patience, we will get back to you in September when the children go back to school everyone is back in the office.

Himalayanbalsam Tue 23-Aug-11 18:29:37

Great, thanks.

(I have been hounding reminding HQ about this thread) grin

caramelwaffle Tue 23-Aug-11 20:36:05

Excellent news.

NLatlarge Wed 24-Aug-11 20:44:22

Bump

NLatlarge Thu 25-Aug-11 20:14:21

Bump in memory of my friend's daughter. Born asleep one year ago tomorrow.

CarGirl Thu 25-Aug-11 20:19:48

I haven't been around very much for a while.

I am thrilled that you are now considering putting some sort of link or something so people can have easy access to this info.

In loving memory of a very special boy born sleeping, thank you to everyone who has kept this thread bumped in my absence, I hope it helps many more mums and babies in the future.

NLatlarge Fri 26-Aug-11 17:03:36

Bump

SpamMarie Sat 27-Aug-11 20:42:12

A girl I know lost her baby at 42 weeks. The child was perfect, the placenta wasn't. None of us saw that coming. You get past the 13 week stage, and you think you're safe because that's all the media and the midwives warn you about. I can't imagine the trauma of giving birth to a child you know is not going to draw breath. Thankyou for bringing this website to my attention. If I ever become pregnant, hopefully I will be better informed on what to look out for (and not be a completely nervous wreak).

Another bump. Am 21 weeks and have just ordered my bracelet. Like many others on here, a lot of this information was new to me. Thank you for raising awareness and much much sympathy to all here who have lost their precious children x

NLsupportsawomensrighttochoose Mon 29-Aug-11 10:13:57

Bump

OverthehillsandfarawayNL Tue 30-Aug-11 08:12:31

Bump

OverthehillsandfarawayNL Tue 30-Aug-11 19:05:26

bump

caramelwaffle Wed 31-Aug-11 10:56:30

Bump

Curlybug Mon 12-Sep-11 22:47:15

Bump

caramelwaffle Tue 13-Sep-11 12:50:44

Bump

allday Wed 14-Sep-11 20:02:34

Bump

RandomMess Wed 14-Sep-11 21:31:16

Bump

Oeisha Thu 15-Sep-11 09:34:05

Bump 22wks here and after a lack of movement for over 12h I rang triage looking to be told to 'relax, it's fine' only to be called in.Everythign's fine. LO's hiding behind placenta and chilling out (or was until she took umbridge at the doppler). Back to being mercilessly booted today, but it is a very different pattern to last 2 wks. Have now ordered a bracelet and will be finding myself a little book to record any 'feeling' types in, as well as printing off the kick monitor sheets (she used to kick like clockwork). Wish I'd known about looking for feelings/patterns earlier.

Oeisha Thu 15-Sep-11 09:35:26

Oh (baby brain). Congratulations to all those with scares and a good outcome and much love and sympathy to those with LOs born sleeping xxx

phlossie Thu 15-Sep-11 10:56:28

Thanks for this thread, especially to those who have shared stories of your sleeping angels.

I'm 18 weeks into my 3rd pregnancy, and already very anxious about baby movements! I'm a worrier, so monitored my first two carefully, but I now know a few people who have had complications and lost babies at various stages in their pregnancies, which makes me even more of a worrier!

I couldn't find on the website when you should start monitoring kicks?

My midwife did tell me at my 16 week appointment that I should be noticing baby's movements from 20 weeks, which wasn't advice I was given with the other two, so it does show that the information is filtering through, I think. If the campaign just saves a few families the pain of losing their babies, then it's started to do an amazing job.

phlossie Thu 15-Sep-11 12:28:51

Also, if there's one message that gets through, it should be that if you're anxious about anything you should see someone straight away and do that very British thing of worrying that you're wasting their time.

caramelwaffle Thu 15-Sep-11 17:55:33

Absolutely phlossie

DoctorX Thu 15-Sep-11 19:02:28

The links in the pages of the site suggested here (from baby centre and ask a mum) contain articles that completely contradict the arguments in count-the-kicks. Summarily the articles in the links argue that counting kicks is unproductive because often the baby's movements are too variable. Often the baby changes position, which means you can't always feel the movements. The advice is to contact your doctor/midwife if you haven't felt anything for a while and if you are worried. Please do not put this threat in a more prominent position. It will just cause unecessary worry.

phlossie Thu 15-Sep-11 19:23:11

But isn't the point that people shouldn't feel like they're being stupid or putting medical professionals out by seeking advice when they just 'feel' like something's wrong? Equally, if a mother loses a baby for whatever reason she inevitably blames herself to a lesser or greater extent. If this campaign means that she feels like she has some sort of control, or gives her concerns some kind of legitimate voice, even if the worst happens she will at least have felt that she did everything she could. I think it's as much about empowering pregnant women as anything else.

olddog Thu 15-Sep-11 19:46:49

All to often when fetal movements are reduced mothers are told to lie down/have a cold drink/baby is just getting ready to come out/there isn't much room left. All well and good if there isn't a problem but not so if your baby is almost dead and needs to be delivered asap. Change in movements should always be checked out. This threat needs to be put in a more prominent position because its current position is under a pile of old wives tales under the carpet in a dark room.

DoctorX Thu 15-Sep-11 20:02:57

I absolutely support the idea of checking with your doctor when you think something is wrong. But this campaign goes about it the wrong the way. Counting the kicks is not a reliable way of making sure everything is OK, simply because the kicks in most cases are too variable. You can advice people to check their blood pressure, for instance, or to check vaginal discharges or to look out for other more telling symptoms. Counting kicks is the old wives' tale that is confusing people here. Sorry to be forceful, but pregnancy is not an illness nor is it meant to be a scary time. Pregnancy is a stage and more often than not it leads to a lot of happiness.

olddog Thu 15-Sep-11 20:56:28

If you placenta starts to separate from your uterus then you get reduced fetal movements, not change in vaginal discharge or blood pressure.

If the cord is compressed then you get reduced fetal movements, not change in vaginal discharge or blood pressure.

When your baby hemorrhages, like mine did, and loses most of his blood then you get reduced fetal movements, not change in vaginal discharge or blood pressure. I didn't have any abnormal discharge, I didn't have abnormal blood pressure, I was not old or fat or ill or a smoker or a drinker or in my first pregnancy. My only symptom was reduced fetal movements. The only reason my baby wasn't stillborn, or more profoundly disabled than he is, is because my perfectly healthy body was on an operating table within an hour of arriving at hospital.

Pregnancy is not an illness but wtf does that have to do with babies becoming ill in utero? Does it mean it doesn't happen? Does in mean that babies don't die every day whilst their mothers have a cold drink?

Your baby not moving is a telling symptom and telling women that their blood pressure is fine therefore their baby is fine is a trifle misleading. Pre Eclampsia is not the be all and end all of ante natal care.

RandomMess Thu 15-Sep-11 21:40:01

Surely the point of counting the kicks daily at set times is that over a period of time you will learn what is more typical for your baby. Later on in pregnancy there is surely far less space for a baby to get into a variable position hence a change in movements can be an indicator that something is wrong/has changed.

Also it's to raise awareness that a change in kicks is something that you should get checked out!

The sad reality is that even if a baby dies in utero it still moves around because it's in fluid but it doesn't kick.

caramelwaffle Mon 19-Sep-11 19:26:03

Bump

ItchyTits Tue 04-Oct-11 08:43:02

CarGirl THANK YOU

You may have saved my baby's life. I was um-ing and ah-ing about whether to go to hospital thinking that reduced kicks may have been because it was so late in the pregnancy and he had settled into a different position.

Since his birth I have been told that he wouldn't have made it if I had waited until the morning.

However, concerned about reduced movements I came across this thread and your OP helped me to decide to go to hospital when I did.

THANK YOU SO MUCH!!

Katiebeau Tue 04-Oct-11 09:44:02

Just a bump really to keep this thread on view.

Hello. All is well here but I went in yesterday for some monitoring as baby had been moving less over the weekend. I was very nicely ticked off and told and reduced or absent movement must be checked within 24hrs max., 24/7 access to monitoring no issue. Hospital (Watford Gen) fantastic. Baby fine thankfully. Told not to hesitate to go back if worried. Don't delay ladies if you are worried and movement or lack of does tell you something might be amiss not just BP or discharge!!!

caramelwaffle Tue 04-Oct-11 11:18:31

Great news Itchy

caramelwaffle Tue 04-Oct-11 11:19:54

Good luck with everything Katie

RandomMess Tue 04-Oct-11 20:53:54

So great to read that this thread has made a difference!

bump

RandomMess Wed 05-Oct-11 19:10:25

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RandomMess Fri 07-Oct-11 20:19:05

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caramelwaffle Sat 08-Oct-11 23:43:55

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RandomMess Wed 26-Oct-11 20:57:31

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RandomMess Thu 27-Oct-11 19:13:03

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madmomma Thu 27-Oct-11 22:31:21

Could I get some advice here on how to count the kicks? Can I log it on my mobile, as it's always with me. I'm 31 weeks and had a day & night last wk where baby didn't kick at all. I had an antenatal check up the next morning, so waited for that (I wouldn't have waited after reading this thread). The midwife listened to the heartbeat and said everything was ok, but can she know that just from a quick listen in?
If baby wriggles for say 10mins would that count as one kick?

caramelwaffle Thu 27-Oct-11 23:47:31

It is not wriggling, madmomma but discernible kicks.

Babies do sleep a lot when in utero, however when awake there should be specific movements; get to know your baby's rhythm. Press down and feel them kick back. Also log the number (of kicks) in your phone or on a notebook, for example.
If at all worried, seek out help asap.

RandomMess Thu 27-Oct-11 23:52:44

Babies move around in the fluid even after they've died which is why it has to be discernable kicks.

caramelwaffle Thu 27-Oct-11 23:53:53

And asap, when you feel something is wrong, means exactly that.

Have a happy, healthy pregnancy smile

madmomma Thu 27-Oct-11 23:54:31

Ah right I see. Thanks ladies. Will start tonight.

caramelwaffle Thu 27-Oct-11 23:58:48

That's good to hear. Goodnight

RandomMess Fri 28-Oct-11 16:58:06

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RandomMess Sat 29-Oct-11 10:15:23

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I work in an organisation with about 700 employees on site. There has just been another stillbirth at term, that's 2 in 2 years sad

In memory of a beautiful dd born this month sleeping sadsadsadsad

caramelwaffle Sun 30-Oct-11 01:09:01

Bump

RandomMess Sun 30-Oct-11 09:23:19

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caramelwaffle Tue 01-Nov-11 23:02:14

Count those kicks

RandomMess Wed 02-Nov-11 18:12:43

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sabrinathemiddleagedwitch Fri 04-Nov-11 22:57:38

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MrsDalliard Sat 05-Nov-11 00:27:15

Bump.

RandomMess Sat 05-Nov-11 07:50:12

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marthamay Wed 16-Nov-11 14:59:36

Thanks for making me aware of the importance of fetal movement. I'm going to order a bracelet right away. Thank you to all those mums who have lost a beautiful baby for sharing your stories on this thread, my heart goes out to you and I can't think of anything harder in life.
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RandomMess Wed 16-Nov-11 19:59:32

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LennyGodber Wed 16-Nov-11 20:26:49

I am 10 weeks pregnant with DC2. My first baby was very active in utero but NEVER did I feel a "kick". There was much wriggling and hiccuping but nothing I would have been able to describe as a kick.

I would describe myself as almost paranoid about stillbirth (while I was pregnant last time, two couples I know lost babies to stillbirth sad ) so I am very aware of the risk and that yes, it does happen to people "just like me".

What should I do this time? I was very aware of movement last time and had one awful scare when baby didn't move when I woke up, I got straight up and ate ice cubes while looking for the phone number of delivery suite, but thankfully by the time it started ringing there was an onslaught of jiggling.

Reading the Count The Kicks stuff has scared me rigid, how the hell would I know if something was wrong if I can't feel actual kicks? I assumed the somersaulting last time was fine (could see the baby doing huge movements) but now I understand this is not so as the movement can be just due to floating in fluid...

I know that perhaps my placenta will be in a different place so I might feel things differently this time, but knowing what I know now, 20 weeks of no "kicks" is going to push me right to the edge I think. Any suggestions?

LennyGodber Wed 16-Nov-11 20:29:29

Oh, and almost goes without saying but I think stillbirth is a particularly cruel form of bereavement and I have the utmost sympathy and admiration for everyone coping with such a loss.
My friends have found SANDS a massive help and I would urge anybody to donate to them thanks

Crosshair Wed 16-Nov-11 20:40:38

Call it count the movements instead, I dont have a kicker either. (hiccups dont count)

LennyGodber Wed 16-Nov-11 20:43:45

Thanks smile last time the MW said the same.

I have read a lot about how movements don't necessarily mean anything and it's scared me, but thinking about how huge the movements were, baby was definitely propelling itself and not just floating, I think. Good luck with your baby crosshair, hope s/he is a wee stoater!

Crosshair Wed 16-Nov-11 21:00:35

Cheers. grin Hope everything goes smoothly for you!

dreamfeeder Wed 16-Nov-11 22:59:51

Hi,

I'm terrified of stillbirth. I only really know people on here who've had a stillbirth, and a colleague who lost her second twin at birth through medical negligence, and the junior doctor not realising the baby was in serious distress and not moving until it was way too late.

I'm pg with twins, am 17+6 (18 weeks on Thursday). I have been feeling flutterings since 15 weeks, probably only in one, and definite kicks DH can feel, I think from both in the last week or so. How am I meant to tell one from the other? I have already had a couple of days where I think only one baby is moving as all movements- and lots are flutters, are to one side.

I am also more educated after reading this. I had no idea flutters and movements didn't count and only kicks matter. I have a DD and was careful about monitoring movements with her- or so I thought, but actually, I was counting all movements so am horrified that really, I wasn't being careful...

I have already had 2 extra scans. One for bad pain, when I couldn't believe anything bar miscarriage was happening (babies both fine), one for spotting and strong braxton-hicks at 16 weeks.

I am worried, as DH points out, that I will get a reputation as 'the girl who cried wolf' as I am so early on, and have already sought help, for what I thought were valid reasons, so early. What if the stop listening if I'm worried later on because I have been clearly worried so early on?

Any advice??

dreamfeeder Wed 16-Nov-11 23:01:25

oh- and that post is such bad english. Can I blame the hormones and extreme tiredness brought on by twin pg and a 14 month old?!

caramelwaffle Wed 16-Nov-11 23:23:59

One thing you must do is not feel guilty, or feel like you are imposing by asking for extra scans/monitoring: as you are having twins, you should be receiving extra care regardless.

I could have been accused, and indeed received an attitude at times of "crying wolf" "making an unnecessary fuss" during pregnancy. The result?

Snoring (actually snorty, snoring her head off - quite funny; has a slight cold) grin

Had I remained meek, and worried about making a fuss, I would not have received immediate medical intervention.

You are very early on. Get used to having a quiet times, and simply concentrating on the particular movements of your babies.

Do enjoy your pregnancy. Most do end well.

Crosshair Thu 17-Nov-11 10:05:58

^''There is no average or normal amount of movements you should feel, however it is often advised that a minimum of 10 movements should be felt throughout a day, but our advice is to always follow your instinct; if you have any worries or an uneasy feeling, something isn’t right – call your midwife.

Movements can be KICKS, SWOOSHES, PUNCHES, FLIPS or TURNS (Hiccups however are not classed as movements).''^

Taken from: countthekicks.org.uk/

marthamay Thu 17-Nov-11 13:54:10

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phlossie Thu 17-Nov-11 14:05:01

Just to reassure you LennyGodbher my two very healthy children (aged 4 and 5) weren't really kickers, and nor is the one I'm carrying. My middle one was more active than the other two - she did a breech to cephalic somersault at 36 weeks. I used to panic with my first, and sometimes a bit with this one, but I can feel definite movements. (Ha, it actually did just kick me - that's very rare though).

I'm 28 weeks, have an anterior placenta (at the front) and get more 'rummaging' sensations than anything else.

The point in Count the Kicks is that you get used to your baby's movements and patterns and trust your instincts if you're worried. Midwives really really are happy to find a healthy baby's heartbeat for a worried mum rather than not find one too late.

RandomMess Fri 18-Nov-11 19:39:39

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TomThumbMum Fri 18-Nov-11 20:20:48

I have just ordered a wrist band. Very moved by people's experiences. Add Children in need to my evening and I am an emotional wreck right now at 11 weeks.

RandomMess Sun 20-Nov-11 21:34:07

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RandomMess Mon 21-Nov-11 18:23:26

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caramelwaffle Mon 21-Nov-11 20:21:59

Bump

claireinmodena Wed 23-Nov-11 10:30:18

Can I also ask about twins? I feels lots of kicks, at 27 weeks, but I can't tell which is from whom, and am I terrified that I might jus be feeling one of the babies, how do you monitor twins' movements?

Thanks to anyone who might have an answer!

caramelwaffle Wed 23-Nov-11 10:46:31

I think with twins (or more) it is a tough one to answer, and scans only will give you a definitive answer.

You should take quiet time out to get to know and recognise your babies movements.

If you have any doubts, ensure you get to the hospital asap. Do not worry about "making a nuisance". Get there, and get reassurance.

claireinmodena Wed 23-Nov-11 14:05:53

Thank you caramel I kind of knew this would be the answer...
It's difficult though as it is just a general worry more than a specific one, so I would be at the drs everyday if I followed that!
Luckily I have a scan on saturday and I will ask the babies' positions and whether they are likely to change much from now on.

Thanks again for taking the time to answer though.
xx

RandomMess Fri 25-Nov-11 19:12:15

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caramelwaffle Sat 26-Nov-11 10:09:48

Bump

RandomMess Thu 08-Dec-11 20:24:54

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marthamay Fri 09-Dec-11 13:32:53

bump

TopazMortmain Fri 03-Feb-12 05:56:58

Bumpety Bump!

Time for another bump grin

JoJessMar Mon 20-Feb-12 20:52:57

Just wanted to highlight this thread.
Like others I didn't realise the significance of counting kicks until it was too late. I had an antenatal check on the day my son died and nothing abnormal was found. Monitoring movement is THE best test of baby's wellbeing and no-one else can do it for you.

joymaker Mon 20-Feb-12 21:53:05

Jo so sorry for your loss.

Can anyone tell me when I should start monitoring movement. I am only 18 wks at present and starting to feel a fair amount of fluttering.

Also, it might be a strange question but can an increased movement also be a warning sign?

Thanks

igggi Mon 20-Feb-12 22:22:44

Reading earlier posts on this thread is freaking me out as I have been counting all the movements I feel as "kicks" - which seems to be what the CTK website says - yet there are posters here saying nothing counts except an actual kick. Feel more confused than before confused

joymaker Tue 21-Feb-12 09:59:47

bump

JoJessMar Tue 21-Feb-12 21:59:50

I wouldn't worry about 'kicks' versus 'movement' too much, though I understand the reason it's been mentioned -in the last few weeks it's a bit of a squeeze in there and so the kind of movements can change a bit. However there should still be lots of activity. An earlier message rightly said that when all movement has ceased the baby still moves around because of the fluid and your movements - if you haven't been monitoring much this can lead you to think things are OK. However there should be definite and regular movements or kicks all the way to the full term.
18 weeks is far too early to worry - I can't remember when movements become regular, and others may be able to offer some advice here, but I would say you won't be able to monitor much until over 24 weeks. For me, and I would imagine many others, the growth restrictions start to show after 30 weeks, ultimately leading to reduced movements.
Always make the call to the labour ward if in doubt - I left it too late. They do advise you to drink icy water and sit and monitor for an hour to see if this 'wakes' the baby and gets him moving, and you may want to do this if you've been busy and you're not sure, but if you think there's something wrong don't delay, trust your instinct.
I've never heard of increased movements being a concern and can't imagine why it would be - active sounds healthy!

igggi Wed 22-Feb-12 23:19:51

That's good to hear, I think I can definitely tell that movements are deliberate, though not necessarily kicks. Thanks.

caramelwaffle Tue 20-Mar-12 21:01:36

Bump.

FoofFighter Wed 21-Mar-12 08:31:09

Well how disappointing that MNHQ still haven't acted on this by putting a link (DV stylee) up on the Pregnancy board.

reporting the thread to get their attention

caramelwaffle Wed 21-Mar-12 13:47:05

Yes Foo

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iCANdothisiCAN Wed 21-Mar-12 14:26:43

"count the kicks" saved my baby's life

I had never heard of it and all I was ever asked at routine MW appointments was "is baby moving?"

The only thing I would say is TRUST YOUR INSTINCTS. If you think something isn't right don't be fobbed off.

I was admitted several times for reduced movement. Every time I was put on a monitor for 20 minutes. Each time it showed baby to be fine so I was sent home.

When I was admitted at 38 weeks, baby was still transverse, measuring small and the trace showed his base line to be 110bpm with several decelerations. The monitors were still removed after 30 minutes and I was kept in overnight but not checked once until the morning despite having pains and feeling very much that something was wrong.

I was put on a monitor again in the morning for 20 minutes which showed the heart rate and movements had improved so after a quick scan to check growth I was sent home. The reduced heart beat and movement was put down to cord compression.

At 41+1 I had been contracting regularly albeit managably for 12 hours before I realised that I had not felt any movement for a long time. I was told to come in to be monitored again.

By the time I got to the hospital the contractions had stopped and there was still no movement. The trace showe a baseline of 100bpm. Only because I had such a history of reduced movement and was booked for induction 2 days later did they agree to admit me and induce labour.

I waited from lunchtime until 7pm to be transferred to the labour ward for my waters to be broken, my contractions had started up again by 3pm and were getting much stronger but still intermittent. I had been 3cm dilated since a sweep 2 days before.

As the MW broke my waters I went from 3cm to 8cm as she examined me. I was strapped to a monitor which showed his base line was still only 90-100bpm. From then on everything went wrong. The labour instantly went from managable to terrifying and completely out of controll. Baby was head down but still not engaged properly and op.

Within 3 hours, after me screaming for help saying something was really wrong and watching the heartbeat become untracable during the pretty much constant contractions, I was in stirrups being cut and having a baby with no heartbeat ripped out with kiwi suction cap.

The cord was around his neck, tightly. The doctor who deliverd him said it loked like it had been that way for some time and was almost certainly the cause of the reduced movement. He was blue and floppy with an apgar of 1.

I am so lucky that despite all this he responded well to the resus and has suffererd no long term effects. He really is my littel miracle. Unfortunatley I have 3 close friends who weren't so lucky. 1 has CP, one has severe developmental delay and SN, and one was tragically stillborn.

DO NOT allow your concerns to be diminsished, don't let yourself be made to feel like you are wasting anyone's time. Your concerns are always always valid. Even if it turns out nothing is wrong you HAVE NOT over reacted. Never be afraid to insist on better care and never let anyone convince you it is unreasonable.

I will always be grateful to Count the kicks and will never tire of helping to get their message across. If there is anything at all I can do please let me know, I would love to help.

RowanMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 21-Mar-12 18:22:47

Hello there,

Thanks for drawing this one to our attention, and so sorry that we dropped the ball. We will talk to the relevant people at MNHQ to see what we can do, and come back to let you know ASAP.

Thanks

FoofFighter Wed 21-Mar-12 19:10:44

Cheers Rowan

caramelwaffle Thu 22-Mar-12 21:46:53

Thank you.

FoofFighter Sat 24-Mar-12 14:46:11

Another bump, also if anyone wishes to let MNHQ know their feelings about a link at the top of the Ante-natal Clubs/Pregnancy/Childbirth boards please click report and they'll see it.

Really feel it's an important message to get out there.

stripeyZ Sun 25-Mar-12 23:23:27

Bump.

HelenMumsnet (MNHQ) Mon 26-Mar-12 13:21:31

Hello. Just posting here to let you know we're not ignoring you! We're actually doing quite a lot of work behind the scenes on this, and we're in touch with Count The Kicks about the best course of action.

We fully support the work of Count The Kicks; the question is really how best we can alert pregnant Mumsnetters towards the need to monitor their baby's kicks in mid to late pregnancy.

We have a bit of a problem with putting that info in a "note" at the top of Pregnancy threads because that is a space really reserved for MN tidy-office kind of stuff (eg "please don't post your survey here; this topic is for Mumsnet surveys only" or "please remember that Mumsnet hasn't checked the legal qualifications of people posting in this topic"). And putting links to other organisations in the "note" would set a bit of a precedent for us.

Also, as Pregnancy is a topic for people in any stage of pregnancy, we don't want to run the risk of unnecessarily worrying those in the early stages of pregnancy that they should checking for movements all the time.

So it all needs a bit of thinking through - which is why we're probably looking a bit slow.

Whatever happens, we will sort something out - and we'll definitely make sure our Pregnancy content include some Count the Kicks info, that we can link to in our 'Pregnancy: useful Mumsnet stuff' column that runs down the right-hand side of all Pregnancy Talk pages.

Thanks for bearing with us on this.

FoofFighter Mon 26-Mar-12 17:07:20

Thank you Helen.

caramelwaffle Mon 26-Mar-12 22:40:38

Thank you.

FoofFighter Wed 28-Mar-12 08:03:17

baby bump!

ddsmummytobe Mon 02-Apr-12 19:13:19

Can somebody tell me, is 22+2 too early to be concerned by a reduce in movement? From about 19 to 22 I've had absolutely loads of solid kicks every day; I've never had 'flutters' or anything like that - they've always been really like 'pokes', and really quite clear and often.

Anyway, today and yesterday I've noticed a considerable decline. I can still feel some movement on occasion, but not as often and not as 'defined' - feel more like flutters than the normal clear as day pokes.

Should I worry?!

DialMforMummy Mon 02-Apr-12 19:54:12

Maybe your baby changed position that could be why you feel different movements. As long as you feel movements, I am inclined to think that it's probably ok.
Maybe you could have a check up with your MW to be reassured?

Thanks CarGirl and all the people who have been bumping this thread. My nephew was stillborn at term and my sister died at 10 days old so stillbirth and neonatal death are issues that are very close to my heart yet I wasn't aware of the campaign and and am currently too early in my pg to feel movement but will definitely be buying a bracelet and counting the kicks, thanks to this thread.

I am so sorry to all the posters who have lost their babies. It's absolutely heartbreaking just to read your posts so I can't begin to imagine what it must be like to be in your shoes. Thanks for sharing as your posts have enormous resonance and are incredibly effective in highlighting the issue.

caramelwaffle Sat 07-Apr-12 21:54:36

Bump

jifnotcif Sat 07-Apr-12 22:02:43

I fully support this campaign. This is so unbelievably simple and could save many lives.

goldene Fri 13-Apr-12 10:39:16

Thanks for bumping this. My nephew was stillborn at 37 weeks; as other people have said it is all too common. I really knew nothing about this with my first, but I'm pregnant again now (9 weeks) so crossing my fingers until the first difficult time is over; and I will certainly keep this in mind.

Very sorry to those who have lost their precious children.

And so pleased to read the two or three stories about how this technique has saved babies lives!

FoofFighter Fri 13-Apr-12 15:31:19

MNHQ any news yet?

caramelwaffle Fri 13-Apr-12 20:43:30

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HelenMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 25-Apr-12 13:22:39

Hello all. We've now put up a content page in our Pregnancy section all about monitoring your baby's movements

And we've linked to it in our list of "Pregnancy: useful stuff" down the side of all Pregnancy Talk pages.

Thanks, everyone, for the suggestion (and for your almost-superhuman patience). smile

Just seen the HQ update. Thanks so much for adding that smile

caramelwaffle Sun 29-Apr-12 22:09:54

Excellent. Thank you.

caramelwaffle Sun 29-Apr-12 22:10:34

And thank you Cargirl

DaisyMaisyJessicaEmily Tue 08-May-12 15:26:02

Bumping

caramelwaffle Wed 09-May-12 14:23:43

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DaisyMaisyJessicaEmily Sun 13-May-12 10:31:33

Boosting this back to the front page - every pregnant woman needs to read this thread, it's long hard going and upsetting, but you need to be aware.

caramelwaffle Tue 15-May-12 10:31:57

Bump