Ha ha ha! Even the lefties have had enough

(40 Posts)
Wellwobbly Tue 23-Jul-13 11:50:29

Michael Heaver:

Unite's workers have had enough of funding the underclass
By Michael Heaver

Don't be fooled by the banners: Unite members support the welfare cap
There are some interesting findings in Lord Ashcroft's poll of Unite members. For instance, only seven per cent plan to vote for the do-gooder Liberal Democrats while 12 per cent plan to vote for the supposedly Thatcherite Ukip.
One thing is clear in the study though: the working people within Unite have had enough of being taxed to the hilt in order to pay for the bone-idle underclass that Labour created. A huge 86 per cent of Unite members agree that the Government is right to introduce a benefit cap on each household.
Despite Labour's hysterical shrieking, the workers don't want to be popular with people who claim every benefit going in order to enjoy a lifestyle that they couldn't fund themselves. It is a stark contrast: those in Unite who get up and work versus their neighbours, friends and even family members who chose not to. Those who contribute to the system have clearly had enough of unlimited welfare payments. Rightly so.
Other findings in the poll show Unite's members to be far more Right-wing than the likes of Ed Miliband: 71 per cent of them don't think councils should have to provide sites for travellers and 59 per cent don't want to see the top rate of tax raised to 75p. Socialism isn't very popular amongst Britain's working class.
Sadly, 49 per cent of Unite members still say they'll vote Labour, but that will largely be either out of public-sector self-interest or tribal voting handed down from generation to generation fuelled by a hatred of the Tories. It isn't, tellingly, because they actually agree with the party's social or economic stances. In the long term, Labour's traditional base will increasingly migrate away from it as Labour stands up for welfare and not the working man.

OnTheNingNangNong Tue 23-Jul-13 11:53:17

Link?

ouryve Tue 23-Jul-13 11:54:01

Oh, well done. You know how to copy and paste.

[headtilt]

SolomanDaisy Tue 23-Jul-13 11:55:08

Poorly written and bad analysis. A bit of a triumph to make such a crappy article out of interesting data.

CogitoErgoSometimes Fri 26-Jul-13 09:08:58

Funnily enough, I was having a conversation with someone on those lines yesterday. We're both from a working class background and felt that the people most likely to expect others to roll their sleeves up, contribute and not expect everyone else to give them a free ride are those that follow the same ethos themselves. Doesn't mean working-class people aren't sympathetic to genuine plight, far from it. If someone genuinely needs help, there's none better. But anyone who has grown up, lived and worked among people who are very clearly taking the piss will be much less dewy-eyed and more hard-nosed about it than those who have never experienced hardship.

ProphetOfDoom Fri 26-Jul-13 09:18:37

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CogitoErgoSometimes Fri 26-Jul-13 09:26:00

Labour being deliberately vague about everything at the moment, really. hmm The economy's finally back on the up, the welfare changes are popular, the union troubles have set them back and it's the Coalition team smiling on the way into the summer break.

TabithaStephens Fri 26-Jul-13 13:24:52

There really aren't that many working-class union members left anymore. It's mostly middle-class public sector professionals.

ttosca Fri 26-Jul-13 13:53:42

> But anyone who has grown up, lived and worked among people who are very clearly taking the piss will be much less dewy-eyed and more hard-nosed about it than those who have never experienced hardship.

Those 'taking the piss' account for less than 1% of welfare claimants.

More money is not claimed which people are legally entitled to claim than is lost through fraud.

So this whole idea of large swaths of the country - the worker vs shirker rhetoric - is complete and utter bullshit.

ttosca Fri 26-Jul-13 13:56:11

> The economy's finally back on the up, the welfare changes are popular, the union troubles have set them back and it's the Coalition team smiling on the way into the summer break.

The economy is being propped up housing prices again, and is creating another bubble.

Secondly, this temporary return to growth misses out on two facts:

a) We've lost 3 years of growth thanks to austerity.

b) People living standards (that is, the vast majority of Brits who aren't rich) continue to decline, growth or not.

CogitoErgoSometimes Fri 26-Jul-13 14:29:15

There's only so many times anyone can put things down to 'rhetoric' and 'bullshit'. Fact is that, in a lot of working class areas, people are living cheek by jowl with those who they either know or suspect are getting something for nothing. Nothing to do with what newspaper they read or what political party they support.

ttosca Fri 26-Jul-13 14:40:31

> There's only so many times anyone can put things down to 'rhetoric' and 'bullshit'. Fact is that, in a lot of working class areas, people are living cheek by jowl with those who they either know or suspect are getting something for nothing. Nothing to do with what newspaper they read or what political party they support.

Oh, is this like Ian Duncan Smith's "I firmly believe" statement which he makes when his assertions have no basis in fact?

JuliaScurr Fri 26-Jul-13 14:49:19

of course people suspect each other! We've heard nothing but fraud/scams/skivers/blah for years.
they tend to adjust their views when they become disabled or redundant

CogitoErgoSometimes Fri 26-Jul-13 14:52:43

I'd rather you didn't call me a liar but, that aside, I'd say you'd learn far more about what working-class people actually think and what experiences we have if you engage with us one-to-one rather than copy/pasting the opinions of people who, judging by their ignorance, treat 'the working class' as some kind of sociological experiment.

Onesleeptillwembley Fri 26-Jul-13 14:58:54

Cogito has it spot on in her post at 9.08

JuliaScurr Fri 26-Jul-13 16:13:43

I am working class
I am a socialist
This govt wants to destroy the Welfare State
They protect tax avoiders
That's why I campaign against them

ttosca Fri 26-Jul-13 17:49:46

First of all, Cogito, you are not a representative of the entire working class (as Julia notes)

Secondly, as has been pointed out already, the public in general (and not just the working class) are very misinformed about the many social and political issues:

British public wrong about nearly everything, survey shows

Research shows public opinion often deviates from facts on key social issues including crime, benefit fraud and immigration

--

A new survey for the Royal Statistical Society and King's College London shows public opinion is repeatedly off the mark on issues including crime, benefit fraud and immigration.

The research, carried out by Ipsos Mori from a phone survey of 1,015 people aged 16 to 75, lists ten misconceptions held by the British public. Among the biggest misconceptions are:

- Benefit fraud: the public think that £24 of every £100 of benefits is fraudulently claimed. Official estimates are that just 70 pence in every £100 is fraudulent - so the public conception is out by a factor of 34.

- Immigration: some 31 per cent of the population is thought to consist of recent immigrants, when the figure is actually 13 per cent. Even including illegal immigrants, the figure is only about 15 per cent. On the issue of ethnicity, black and Asian people are thought to make up 30 per cent of the population, when the figure is closer to 11 per cent.

- Crime: some 58 per cent of people do not believe crime is falling, when the Crime Survey for England and Wales shows that incidents of crime were 19 per cent lower in 2012 than in 2006/07 and 53 per cent lower than in 1995. Some 51 per cent think violent crime is rising, when it has fallen from almost 2.5 million incidents in 2006/07 to under 2 million in 2012.

- Teen pregnancy is thought to be 25 times higher than the official estimates: 15 per cent of of girls under 16 are thought to become pregnant every year, when official figures say the amount is closer to 0.6 per cent.

Among the other surprising figures are that 26 per cent of people think foreign aid is in the top three items the Government spends money on (it actually makes up just 1.1 per cent of expenditure), and that 29 per cent of people think more is spent on Jobseekers' Allowance than pensions.

In fact we spend 15 times more on pensions - £4.9 billion on JSA vs £74.2 billion on pensions.

cont'd

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/british-public-wrong-about-nearly-everything-survey-shows-8697821.html

ttosca Fri 26-Jul-13 17:51:48

This ignorance is perpetuated by the right-wing press and exploited by politicians with an agenda to attack social security, and enact even more sociopathic neo-liberal economic policies which have done so much harm already.

BMW6 Fri 26-Jul-13 21:17:41

Nah, there has always been an underclass that the working class regard as shiftless.
The only thing that has changed in the 50+ years that I have lived is that you don't see the level of poverty that I did in my youth.
And, of course, there wasn;'t the volume of drug abuse around.

BMW6 Fri 26-Jul-13 21:18:54

Oh and an overweight child was a rarity.

CogitoErgoSometimes Sat 27-Jul-13 08:29:22

I don't pretend to represent anyone. I just agree with a lot of the contents of the survey at the start of the thread because it chimes with my own experience and observation and I think it dumbs-down the argument to keep insisting that everyone is simply misinformed. When your own family and immediate neighbours are playing the system, that's not misinformation.

Solopower1 Sat 27-Jul-13 15:22:33

Cogito, if you know someone who is playing the system, can you tell them what you think?

Imo, people will often carry on doing something until their nearest and dearest point out that it is not acceptable.

I am sorry that you are surrounded by benefit scroungers. In the 18 years that I lived on a council estate in Manchester, I can only think of one person who ever cheated the system, and that was my ex FIL, who fiddled his tax returns.

On the other hand, there were at least three single-parent families who claimed benefits while they went back to college and got the qualifications they needed. They are all earning good money now, and have been paying taxes for the last 20 years.

RandallPinkFloyd Sat 27-Jul-13 15:30:45

Ok, I've read your copy & pasted thing and I get that your clearly a conservative. That's fine, each to their own.

But what's funny about it? I can't see a joke anywhere. I'm genuinely curious at to why you're laughing.

BMW6 Sun 28-Jul-13 09:01:37

*Cogito, if you know someone who is playing the system, can you tell them what you think?

Imo, people will often carry on doing something until their nearest and dearest point out that it is not acceptable*

What version of Disneyworld do you live in hmm? Here where I live you will, at the very very least, be told to Fuck Off!! Most likely bricks though the window and forced to move!!

FeegleFion Sun 28-Jul-13 09:18:30

Anyone who believes the propaganda spewed by the Tories and into the tabloids about benefit thieves really need to educate themselves.

“If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”
Malcolm X

meditrina Sun 28-Jul-13 09:26:09

Welfare cap is an immensely popular policy across pretty much all sectors of the working and retired population. It's not surprising that a Union has a lot of members who favour it (in principle, at least, as I expect there will always be differences about level of cap).

Also, I do not expect a Union member to be of a particular party loyalty. It's just as wrong as the assumption in a thread a few weeks ago that you needed to be right wing to be in a certain line of work.

lottieandmia Sun 28-Jul-13 09:31:55

What ttosca said.

It's amazing how many people have been successfully brainwashed to believe that most people who claim benefits are lazy and work shy and responsible for all of the UK's ills. When in reality those people are few and far between.

lottieandmia Sun 28-Jul-13 09:36:05

Cogito how do you know your family and neighbours are playing the system?

Silverfoxballs Sun 28-Jul-13 09:42:54

I can honestly say that my solidly working class family are the most critical of benefit recipients. I also remember the cleaner where I worked being anti foodbanks. She was vey much if she can do it why can't they.

Unions have never been especially touch feely towards the non working population, they can be very protectionist. I was a steward for years. I Remember they were very anti immigration in the 1960's and 70's.

They do tend to be led by a majority of people with left wing ideals, I remember the Trotskyite in fighting in the 1990's in the union I was in. I was involved up to regional level and touched in with national level. A lot of policy put forward at that time was put in by people with a very specific political axe to grind, looking at the SWP here. I was a ''bloody' reformist I remember.

PeriodMath Sun 28-Jul-13 09:53:20

But it's not just about those who "play the system" or "claim fraudulently" is it?

A lot of people believe that very many currently legitimate and allowable benefits should be scrapped too.

Solopower1 Sun 28-Jul-13 10:07:10

BMW6 my post to Cogito was tongue in cheek. I suppose, because of my own experiences, I am sceptical that so much benefit scrounging is going on.

It is possible that little micro-cultures grow up in which maybe you are seen as in some way heroic if you get one over on the System, and a fool if you actually restrict yourself to claiming what you are entitled to. Nothing the govt says is going to make you change your ways, but someone within your own circle is likely to have a lot more influence.

So I'm not saying that you should knock on someone's door and start telling them what bad people they are! In mixed communities, you can show by example that you can live your life in other ways. But if you live in some sort of dodgy ghetto full of vicious benefit scroungers, then maybe you'd better bar the windows and doors and keep your head down.

But as I said before, I think people who think like that are very much in the minority - though they may live in clusters, which is what makes people think it's going on all around them. There are far more people, imo and ime, who need to claim for a couple of years while they get back on their feet, and who pay back later through their taxes, or who need help because their work is low-paid or they are disabled and can't work, etc etc.

CogitoErgoSometimes Mon 29-Jul-13 20:45:24

"Cogito how do you know your family and neighbours are playing the system?"

Because they tell me themselves. What to claim, how to qualify, what to say, who to talk to, which pieces of information to exaggerate and which to play down if you want a good result. One could write a book on what buttons to push to promote yourself up the local Housing Authority priority lists. Another is an expert in appearing to live separately from a partner so that she can claim benefits as a single person. A third was signed off work with incontinence for years before he got caught out. (Didn't stop him drinking copious amounts at the pub). I don't live in the same 'dodgy ghetto' as them any more smile

Solopower1 Mon 29-Jul-13 21:21:35

Well there will always be people who play the system. It's just very unfair that that reflects badly on legitimate claimants.

But surely people realise that the people they might know are not necessarily representative of everyone else? I know that my experiences are totally opposed to yours, Cogito. Who is right? Probably both of us. So what are the proportions? We need to get some statistics - but statistics can't be trusted either (since there's always someone with their own agenda who pays for the research and decides who to poll and what questions to ask). Or does anyone have any reliable statistics - this % of claimants of housing benefit are fraudulent - that sort of thing?

Failing that all we have to fall back on are our own particular prejudices and agendas and our own tiny experiences. Not much, really.

lottieandmia Tue 30-Jul-13 11:43:27

'One could write a book on what buttons to push to promote yourself up the local Housing Authority priority lists.'

Some years ago I was in a bad situation - I had split from my husband and was ill and then hospitalised so me and my children were living with my mum and dad (one of the children disabled) - the council put us on bronze and we had no hope of moving from there. I think that unless you are actually homeless you have no hope of social housing where I live.

The situation you describe of a couple pretending to live apart is certainly wrong but it's also wrong of you to assume that every lone parent is doing this!

CogitoErgoSometimes Tue 30-Jul-13 15:08:12

I did not assume or say anything of the kind. I also happen to be a lone parent ... hmm The thread is about working class people, when surveyed, being more in favour of welfare reforms than some would like to believe. My point being that, if you live alongside people who are routinely bending the rules either legally or illegally to get a better outcome, and if you are not flush for cash yourself, then you are less likely to romanticise the plight of the poor and more likely to demand fair play.

^ I think that unless you are actually homeless you have no hope of social housing where I live.^

And here's where I could have helped you, knowing what I know from my friend. To get bumped up the housing list your parents would have had to evict you in writing and make you homeless. You will be assigned temporary accommodation for a short time but then you will be priority for something permanent. In my part of Hertfordshire this is the standard way to force the council's hand...

Solopower1 Tue 30-Jul-13 19:02:54

Of course no-one would need to force the council's hand if they hadn't sold off all the council houses. Not blaming the people who bought their council houses btw. But how could councils be so foolish as not to build/adapt more?

merrymouse Wed 31-Jul-13 09:10:06

Who on earth is Michael Hever? He doesn't come across as particularly bright.

"71 per cent of them don't think councils should have to provide sites for travellers"

To make sense of this, you would have to explain Tory and Labour policy on travellers and analyse the alternative costs of not supporting travellers (would you like them to occupy your private land instead?), and clarify what question was actually asked.

Was the question "Do you want your hard earned cash to be spent on a bunch of thieving gypsies?" or was the question "Do government have a responsibility to deal with conflict between travellers and the rest of the UK population?". The second might lead you to the conclusion that what ever your feelings on the rights and wrongs of the travelling life style, pretending they don't exist will not cause them (or the rest of the 'underclass' to vanish in a puff of smoke).

Equally, as I understand it, most people in receipt of benefits in this country are working, pensioners or disabled.

merrymouse Wed 31-Jul-13 09:11:07

Sorry 'Heaver'.

Only fair to spell his name correctly.

merrymouse Wed 31-Jul-13 09:26:14

Oh I see. Poll carried out by Lord Ashcroft.

I've watched the West Wing. I've listened to More or Less. I think I'd take this poll with a largish pinch of salt.

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