Ha ha ha! Toby Young sticks it to the Gurniad and Labour luvvies

(98 Posts)
Wellwobbly Wed 26-Jun-13 12:37:59

There's a great example in the Guardian this morning of what Americans call "gee whiz" journalism, as in, a piece of news greeted as if it's jaw-droppingly sensational when, to the rest of us is, it's bleedin’ obvious. I'm talking about John Harris's belated discovery that "the yoof" don't share the values of the liberal, Guardian-reading metropolitan elite. Incredible as it may seem, they're not pro-immigration, pro-welfare or pro-redistributive taxation. According to Ipsos MORI, only 20 per cent of 18-34-year-olds agree with the statement "the creation of the welfare state is one of Britain's proudest achievements". How dare they?!? Most amazingly of all – to Harris, anyway – is that Generation Y don't blame the "Con-Dem cuts" for youth unemployment. Haven't they been listening to Len McCluskey?
The most telling passage in the article comes at the end, when Harris meets a 27-year-old in Warrington who's just got a job after a bout of unemployment thanks to the government's Work Programme. Harris asks him whether he thinks his joblessness was his fault.
"Yeah," he says. "I do. I think I should have applied for more. I should have picked myself up in the morning, got out, come to a place like this – tried more. When you're feeling down, you start blaming the world for your mistakes – you feel the world owes you. And it doesn't. You owe the world: you have to motivate yourself, and get out there, and try."
Harris describes this reply as – wait for it – "heartbreaking". Yes, it breaks the Guardianista's heart that this young person doesn't think the world owes him a living. Instead of becoming welfare dependent, trapped for the rest of his life in poverty and despair – as any self-respecting member of the proletariat should, doncha know – he's actually gone out and found himself a job! Oh tempora! Oh mores! What's become of the client state? It's as if 13 years of New Labour never happened.
Harris blames "Thatcherism" for the proletariat's false consciousness – and the fact that Labour hasn't been a proper socialist party since Tony Blair ditched Clause IV. The "up-by-your-boot-straps Conservatism of Norman Tebbit and Margaret Thatcher" (yah, boo, sucks) went "largely unchallenged during the New Labour years" and is now accepted by millions of young people as "a simple matter of fact". Echoes here of red daiper baby Owen Jones, whom Harris singles out (alongside public schoolgirl Laurie Penny) as a beacon of hope amidst all the gloom. Owen thinks "the rightwing media" is to blame for brainwashing the lumpen proles. If only the poor sods read the Guardian or the Independent, then they'd know THE TRUTH which is that the millionaire-Tory-Bullingdon-Boys-ruling-class have a vested interest in keeping them down.
Hmmm. Call me a capitalist running dog, but I can think of another explanation for Generation Y's lack of enthusiasm for the values of John Harris, Owen Jones and public schoolgirl Laurie Penny.
Maybe – just maybe – the reason 18-34-year-olds aren't wild about the consequences of Labour's open-door immigration policy is because they noticed that nine out of ten jobs created under the last government went to foreign-born workers.
Maybe – just maybe – the young residents of towns like Warrington aren't in lockstep with John Harris and Owen Jones and public schoolgirl Laurie Penny when it comes to state hand-outs is because they've witnessed the appalling, destructive, calamitous impact of welfare dependency with their own eyes.
Maybe – just maybe – the reason more 18-24-year-olds say they're going to vote Conservative (31 per cent) than Labour (27 per cent) is because they recognise that Britain wasn't in a great place after 13 years of the other lot in power, that we need to get the deficit under control if we're to avoid joining Ireland, Greece, Portugal, Spain, Italy and (any day now) France in the bankruptcy club and that David Cameron and George Osborne's plan for digging us out of this hole is just a teensy weensy bit more credible than Ed Miliband and Ed Balls's.
No, silly me. It's because they've all been brainwashed by The Sun.

Wellwobbly Wed 26-Jun-13 12:38:27

Copyright, of course, Toby Young

claig Wed 26-Jun-13 12:49:57

Some wise words from Toby!

claig Wed 26-Jun-13 13:10:34

Toby or not to be (a progressive)?

That is what Toby has addressed.
And the answer that our youth gave seems to have surprised John Harris.

The progressives don't like it, they're all at sea, they ask themselves how on earth can this be?

In their think thanks, their charitable foundations, their social trusts and their third sector publicly funded roles, the public school progressive PPEs are busier than bees trying to spin their way out of their self-produced quagmire; they curse our youth for daring to aspire.

They try all the tricks, scaremongering and doom mongering with cries of catastrophic climate change, anything to fool the youth; but alas, nothing works, for the youth have seen the truth and abandoned socialism red in tooth.

Loving this thread smile

TabithaStephens Wed 26-Jun-13 14:46:16

Can someone link me to this article? I can't see it on the Guardian website.

Darkesteyes Wed 26-Jun-13 15:29:21

Toby contradicts himself here. While trying to crawl up the arse of 18 to 34 yr olds it might be an idea not to refer to Owen Jones (who in in his late twenties) as a red diaper baby.

claig Wed 26-Jun-13 18:07:46
claig Wed 26-Jun-13 18:10:01

"it might be an idea not to refer to Owen Jones (who in in his late twenties) as a red diaper baby"

To be fair to Toby, he may have made this mistake based on the way that Owen conducts himself, his level of argumentation and the way that he occasionally throws his toys out of the pram.

TabithaStephens Wed 26-Jun-13 18:31:51

Harris is ridiculous. Saying that someone taking it upon themselves to get themselves a job is "heartbreaking"?

I really wonder about some people on the left.

The bit about Owen Jones and Laurie Penny is also mind boggling. What relevence do such groups as the ones named have to the average young adult?

Do these people have any self awareness? They seem to be in a bubble, surrounded by other people like them, but totally isolated from the real world.

DontBeFooledByTheRocksThatIGot Wed 26-Jun-13 18:47:11

I see torn loyalties. My links are with "working class Glaswegians" who on one hand hate Thatcher (and ergo the Conservative party) because their parents did etc. - but at the same time they're looking around the welfare-dependent heap and wondering where their opportunities have gone.

claig Wed 26-Jun-13 19:00:24

This is the original John Harris article that Toby is referring to


It is good news for Tories. New Labour always aimed their policies at the young and naive, with their global warming fear mongering etc, and their "Cool Britannia" spiel, but it looks like it may not be working for them.

Pensioners on the whole prefer the Tories and so do the "squeezed middle", so if the young won't vote for them, where can they go? It's no use sucking up to the polar bear with the global warming scare, because polar bears don't have the vote yet, not even a postal ballot.

"Welcome, then, to yet another element of the New Normal, and a sobering fact: when it comes to questions about the welfare state, work and the like, the younger you are, the more rightwing you're likely to be."

"At the upper end of the Gen Y age range, consider also the infamous views of Frank Turner, the 31-year-old old-Etonian singer who apparently thinks that when it comes to the relationship between government and the individual, there should be an emphasis on "minimising the impact on ordinary people's lives … allow[ing] them to get on with their lives and not be bothered by the state. Then you've suddenly got a range of things to talk about that are achievable. Like everything from not having ID cards and trying to dismantle the surveillance system we've put together in this country on the one hand, trying to remove government from people's lives, social services. Letting people be freer, health and safety, whatever it might be." On the face of it, that all chimes brilliantly with the aforementioned polling."

"Oh, Generation Y. Why?"

Because they have seen the socialists in action and no longer believe in their spin and lies.

BMW6 Wed 26-Jun-13 19:19:15

.......am awaiting ttosca's first mahoosive copy & paste rebuttal to this thread grin

beatback Wed 26-Jun-13 22:20:30

Maybe Education is working and the young can see that not only did labour destroy the economy for ever, but they also destroyed the culture and demographic of the country and they have realised the likes of mccluskey are just out for themselves. They also know that labour have made lifelong clients of welfare and they are sick of the thought of having to pay taxes all their life for a pension they wont get until they are in their early 70s. They also know the country is not going to pull them up by their bootlaces and realise they have to do it themselves. MIDDLE ENGLAND IS STARTING THE FIGHTBACK THOUGH 18-24 FANTASTIC.

claig Wed 26-Jun-13 22:41:50

Spot on beatback.

Middle England has had enough of the spinners and liars and taxpayer funded charitable social foundation trust progressives on stellar salaries, they are fed up of quangos and taxpayer funded NHS trust bosses and their gagging clauses, and lies on everything from climate change to education, and they are rising.

The young are the same as us, they don't see why they should have to pay out of their taxes for this third sector class of socialists, wonks and think tankers with PPEs who pretend to represent the proletariat.

The fightback of ordinary people has started and the progressives and PPEs will be kicked out of power for years.

claig Wed 26-Jun-13 23:02:56

The days of the high spending taxpayer funded big state socialists are over. People are saying enough is enough.

Look at the middle classes in Brazil, protesting in their millions on the streets every night for lower taxes and better services.

The middle classes are the same the world over and they have been milked by the progressives for long enough.

The people are united, change is coming and its time for the progressives to start going.

claig Wed 26-Jun-13 23:05:30

And it's happening in Australia too.

Today Julia Gillard went and the Australian Labour Party are desperate to hold on to their seats as the good people of Australia have been incensed by the socialists "carbon taxes".

All over the world, it's a rout, the people are shouting "kick the progressives out".

beatback Wed 26-Jun-13 23:17:27

Thank you CLAIG. What a lot of left learning people dont realise is that the left treat the poor with disdain and labour has always taken their vote for granted. The majority of these votes come from people who could not name one labour policy but have been brainwashed over generations by union members, grandparents and parents that labour look after their intrests when the opposite is true. What labour do with benefits is like a drug dealer giving free samples of heroin to draw their client in and once hooked there is no way out that is what labour have done for generations.

claig Wed 26-Jun-13 23:29:25

"What a lot of left learning people dont realise is that the left treat the poor with disdain and labour has always taken their vote for granted."

Exactly. The people havenot forgotten how Gordon Brown treated teh good lifelong Labour voter, Mrs Duffy.

Even Labour voters are wising up to the elite class of progressives who say they are on the people's side. How many of them ever worked in a factory or on a shopfloor or in a call centre? How many of them ever earned minimum wage? That's why they can't understand that young people are economically liberal and don't want what little they earn to be taxed to pay for bureaucrats in quangos and for bigwigs in charitable trusts.

John Harris studied PPE at The Queen's College, Oxford.
Laurie Penny studied English at Wadham College, Oxford.
Owen Jones studied history at University College, Oxford.

No wonder young people have abandoned socialism and are turning to the right; they are doing what they think is right.

beatback Wed 26-Jun-13 23:45:46

HARRIS PENNY/ OWEN JONES. Must be fighting for their politcal lives thinking how long can we get away with our patronising views. As for owen jones well i read his book "CHAVS" and i must say what a loud of pompous rubbish not suprising when he was the son of two University professors and educated at Oxford. ITs because he spent to much time in on theory and not enough time reseaching the facts that cause the "CHAV" culture but the likes of jones,penny and harris have a vested intrest in keeping their nonsense going. Another thing how does owen jones claim to be "WORKING CLASS" and like the other people who were let down by Education when he went to Oxford the truth is Jones is as far from the CHAV CULTURE AS GEORGE OSBORNE IS. You want get anyone saying that but that is the truth.

beatback Wed 26-Jun-13 23:49:02


claig Wed 26-Jun-13 23:53:16

Exactly, and teh guardian is full of these type of people.

Where is a real paper that represents the working classes, full of clever people from every other university in the land?

Owen Jones, the Oxford educated scourge of the capitalists, didn't even turn up at teh biggest meeting of capitalists, bankers, socialists and puppets known as Bilderberg.

Where are the people who stand up for and represent real working people?

People are wising up to this game of charades with privileged progressives pretending to represent the people and then finding it heartbreaking when the people think differently to them and don't want to be taxed even more so that their money can be wasted on taxi fares and golden goodbyes for public sector BBC staff, who probably went to Oxford too!

claig Wed 26-Jun-13 23:56:40

Agree, beatback.

The fact that Owen Jones (and most probably John Harris and Laurie Penny) didn't even turn up at Bilderberg made me wonder if he is a fake too, just like many of the other privileged progressives who play the game of charades with the people as their dupes.

beatback Thu 27-Jun-13 00:01:57

Claig. The thing is within my extended family i have members who could be classed as "CHAVS". His views would not help any of them to escape the culture that has been forced on them. No doubt from the age of 5 Jones University parents would have been brainwashing him about "THATCHER," probably would have sent him to the worst school in the borough to make a point but making sure he benefited from his parents University friends and no doubt lecturing the school how their Owen was the only kid to go Oxford "EVER" from there.

claig Thu 27-Jun-13 00:02:21

The progressives are losing the media battle. Their spin is falling on deaf ears. Very few people actually read John Harris, Laurie Penny and Owen Jones, many more good people read the Daily Mail, that's why the progressives are so pissed that they call it the Daily Fail.

The progressives are failing, all they can do at the Daily Mail is keep railing; they know they are losing and they know it's not them the people are choosing.

The progressives are pissed, but they won't be missed.

beatback Thu 27-Jun-13 00:03:06


claig Thu 27-Jun-13 00:07:17

smile No, I went to London

MrsTwgtwf Thu 27-Jun-13 00:10:59

Owen Jones. I would. Oh, yes.

claig Thu 27-Jun-13 00:13:07

MrsTwgtwf, the only explanation for that statement is that you have been drinking. The only matter of doubt is how many you have had.

MrsTwgtwf Thu 27-Jun-13 00:27:22


But in a good way.

MrsTwgtwf Thu 27-Jun-13 00:35:17
claig Thu 27-Jun-13 00:39:41

Yes, there is a slight resemblance from that angle.

But a full frontal view of Owen Jones soon shatters that dream and dispels the myth unless you have been on the pyth or are taking the pyth.

ninah Thu 27-Jun-13 00:45:21

claig. Pass the doobie.

claig Thu 27-Jun-13 00:47:31

MrsTwgtwf has got it

Wellwobbly Thu 27-Jun-13 10:26:24

Thanks for joining in, MNetters!

I did want this to be a lighthearted post and nobody has got ugly, so thanks.


Wellwobbly Thu 27-Jun-13 10:34:46

One book that is very very sobering:

'The Vision of the Anointed Self-Congratulation as a Basis for Social Policy' by Thomas Sowell.

He likens the liberal-left (the Anointed) with making the same fault as the Nazis - so intent on their ideology (the Vision) that they are utterly blind to any discordant feedback that it doesn't work.

He then looks at the favourite social policies of the Anointed - welfare, war on poverty, rehabilitative justice, marriage, racism and sex education - and uses US census material to empirically prove that the Vision has actually made things WORSE.

But the Anointed refuse to acknowledge this, and instead say that the solution is to have more of the Vision: more welfare, etc etc. They also immune themselves from criticism by truly believing that they are more caring and morally superior than people who do not have the Vision, and that people who disagree are therefore evil and uncaring.

He writes in his forward: 'the West is sleepwalking to disaster'.

A very sobering book. Because he uses statistics to prove everything he says (ie welfare has ripped African American families apart) it is heavy going, post-graduate level.

Wellwobbly Thu 27-Jun-13 10:37:58

sorry, census returns not statistics

Wellwobbly Thu 27-Jun-13 10:39:17

Would you Mrs Twgtwf? Hmmmmm!

MrsTwgtwf Thu 27-Jun-13 15:13:34

I would. And now I'll have to buy his book "Chavs" cos I had no idea it was him wot wrote it.

beatback Thu 27-Jun-13 18:26:18

CLAIG. A book everbody needs to read is SEASONS IN THE SON BY DOMINIC SANDBROOK. THE BATTLE FOR BRITIAN 1974-1979 It is uncanny how everything about 1974-1979 has come round full circle and the decisions and policies of the time are so relevant today. We have the european referendum of 1975 people fighting against bad schools and loony left ideas within schools 1976 IMF CRISIS 1976 people seeing non working people living better than them with "COULOUR TVS". It is quite extraordinary how history repeats itself in almost parallel lines.

beatback Thu 27-Jun-13 18:34:17

The chapter on education in the book is hilarious and not even the biggest lefties today would even comtemplate that sort of teaching. the book shows in general though that the left still have the same sort of 1970s type thinking today. These were the sort of policies that Brown and Balls inflicted on britian and left it with an economy that is broken and maybe unrepairable.

claig Thu 27-Jun-13 18:50:57

Thanks for that book suggestion beatback. I will look into that. I have read some of Sandbrook's articles in the Mail and they are good.

Thank also for the Sowell book reference from WellWobbly. I wikipediaed Sowell and he is quite a guy, and that sounds like an interesting book on progressives ("the anointed ones") and why they make the mistake of thinking like they do!

beatback Thu 27-Jun-13 19:34:08

CLAIG. perhaps it takes a housewife to see that Britian"s national housekeeping is appalling. Britian is producing every week the same as she was in February last year.Yet she is spending half has much again. No family could survive like that. For a bit they can borrow,buy on HP,and delay paying the bills. But in the end the only way to get straight is to stop spending so much. What is right for the family is right for Britian. MARGARET THATCHER SHIPLEY 1975. I thought i post this speech. This speech describes today in great detail and that is why Even labour know we have got to start reducing the public debt . But the problem is labour dont have any coherent or logical policies in dealing with the debt they make it up on the hoof and we all know that as soon as Unite threaten to stop funding the labour party any semblence of common sense on dealing with the debt will go out of the window.

claig Thu 27-Jun-13 19:40:56

Very true, beatback.
Labour have no answers. All they ever do is milk the taxpayer and waste the taxpayer's money and eventually leave notes saying "sorry, there's no money left".

nellyjelly Thu 27-Jun-13 19:43:00

FFS. Yay bring on more welfare cuts everyone will thrive!

I saw a picture of Cameron at a food bank. Is he not embarrassed that people can't afford to eat on his watch?

It makes me sick to read some of the nonsense on this thread.

beatback Thu 27-Jun-13 20:04:31

If waste had been controlled for the last 15 years in the public sector we would not be having to make any cuts . the money that has been wasted by appalling profligacy within certain parts of the public sector is criminal. It is appaling that anyone has to use food banks ,especially as most of the people using food banks are people who though poor education and bad luck have found very few job opportunities but with 9 out of every ten jobs created going to foreign born workers that is hardly suprising. Certain people within the labour party rub their hands together with glee when the see people using food banks because "WEVE GOT ANOTHER CLIENT FOR LIFE" forcing desperate people to listen to their propaganda. If labour were a force for good why after 13 years did we not have full employment then and why did the difference between the richest 0.1% of the population increase at a rate faster than at any time in history and a lot of the 0.1% pop stars Fred Goodwin and other friends of labour were abusing their own faithful voters. People say its the top 1 percent but the reality is is the top 0.1% who have all the money.

claig Thu 27-Jun-13 20:13:33

Jon Cruddas, who I think is Labour's policy chief, said that "food banks are here to stay". His vision is to work with them, not to get rid of them.
That shows how bankrupt Labour's vision is.

We need to engineer growth so that we can create wealth and jobs and get rid of the need for food banks.

To do that we have to cut some of the waste and not remove money from ordinary people's pockets.

We don't need to cut services for vulnerable people, but we need to scrap the waste in our public sector - waste on expenses, home flipping, taxi fares, £100 million wasted on a BBC IT project, golden goodbyes to BBC staff, stop spending thousands a year on chauffering BBC TV stars from down South where some of them live to the studio in Manchester.

Cut the waste, cut spending on street football coordinators, climate change operatives, subsidies to rich landowners for erecting windmills and rewrite some of the tax laws so that corporations have to pay their fair share.

There is lots that can be done. We don't need to be resigned to Jon Cruddas's view that "food banks are here to stay".

claig Thu 27-Jun-13 20:17:15

Scrap the subsidised bars and canteens in the House of Commons while some of our people queue up at foodbanks.

claig Thu 27-Jun-13 20:20:14

Scrap HS2 in a time of national crisis and spend the £30 plus billion on building new homes, roads and infrastructure to create mass employment which will lift us out of recession in the short term, and start HS2 in a time of boom only.

claig Thu 27-Jun-13 20:31:29

UKIP say they can save £50 billion with a bonfire of the quangos and the curtailment of salaries of the quangocrats.

Even if they are overstating it, there may well be billions of waste that could be cut there and which could be used to boost growth in the economy.

beatback Thu 27-Jun-13 21:14:24

Claig. The biggest Labour vanity project, the Salford Studios. The whole project was frankly riduculous and has not benefited salford or the North West in any way. The appalling way in which the stars refuse to live within a reasonable distance of the salford studios .In any other industry you have to live near where you work you cant claim first class rail fares everday, or like Victoria Derbyshire decide you cant be bovvered to get the train so broadcast near your home in london there cant be any other business in the country that would allow that kind of abuse. The Salford Studio "LABOUR VANITY PROJECT" has not benefited the region because none of the presenters live or spend any time in the region. It was as if it was a sweetener to "MANCHESTER CITY COUNCIL" especially, after Brown stopped the super"CASINO" project. I live in Osborne Constituency in Tatton and it is no suprise he used is influence to make sure HS2 avoided Knutsford but this is a total waste of money and wont come on stream for 15 years. The country needs the 30 billion now but spent on projects that will generate future growth not in the labour way which would be a give away to the union backed industries .Maybe the money should be used to help small and medium sized business grow and to take away some of the stifling bureaucracy in things like rateable values that small business cannot afford to pay so have to make people redundent in order to pay business rates, surely this is economics from the mad house but this is just everyday stuff for small business up and down the country.

claig Thu 27-Jun-13 21:27:25

It is pathetic how much taxpayer money is wasted by these people and they get away with it while people are thrown out of their homes because they can't afford an extra £14 for the bedroom tax


"there cant be any other business in the country that would allow that kind of abuse"

Exactly and this is all funded by the taxpayer which is why they can get away with. To the progressive, public money grows on trees.

Good point about the rates. Taxpayers are milked by the elite class and small businesses too.


claig Thu 27-Jun-13 21:32:07

The nation is working to keep these people in the style they have become accustomed to - expenses, taxis, salaries, golden goodbyes and bonuses, subsidised canteens and bars are no object to these people.

Some of them are on six figure salaries and gold-plated pensions, while a third of the hardworking public don't even have a pension.

beatback Thu 27-Jun-13 21:54:50

Claig. What a lot of people think is if you are right of centre you are a racist or hate poor people .As you have demonstrated right of centre politics is about freedom ,allowing people to keep as much as their own money as possible and making sure bureaucrats and free loaders dont waste taxpayers money. What the left leaning free loaders and bureaucrats do is brainwash the "PROLETARIAT" in to believing the right want to impoverish them. The truth is its in the intrest of the left to keep the "PROLETARIAT" impoverished in money terms and education.

claig Thu 27-Jun-13 21:58:29


The majority of the country is right wing and John Harris found it heartbreaking to find out that the majority of the youth are too.

Our TV media is left wing, which is how the progressives are able to use propaganda to fool people that the following is true :
"What a lot of people think is if you are right of centre you are a racist or hate poor people"

ttosca Sun 30-Jun-13 11:48:06

Some people are overexcited. Young people have not all of a sudden become conservatives or Tory voters.

UKPollingReport discusses Toby Young's Guardian article:

Last year I wrote an article on How Not To Report Opinion Polls. It included advice on ignoring small cross breaks, margins of error and not cherry-picking. That is, if there is a long data series with lots of noise and random error, don’t pick out the one random outlier than supports your case and ignore the rest.

There is a classic example in the Guardian today. John Harris writes about polling of young people and says they are voting Tory. He writes: “One recent YouGov poll put support for the Tories among the 18-24s at 31%, with Labour trailing at 27%. By way of a contrast, Tory support among those aged 40-59 was at 29%, with Labour on 40%. In other words, the time-worn wisdom about politics and the young may be in the process of being turned on its head.”

Well, yes, one recent YouGov poll showed that. This one. However, other YouGov poll this month have tended to show Labour leads amongst young people and the Conservatives doing better amongst older people, a far more normal pattern. The poll the Guardian linked to was not typical of recent polling. On average YouGov’s daily sample contains around about 150 people under 25, about a third of which say don’t know or that they wouldn’t vote. This means the daily voting break for under 25s is based on about a hundred people, and has a margin of error of plus or minus 10 points. In other words, if a party actually had a lead of around about 8 points amongst young people, then random error alone will spit out polls showing leads of between plus 28 and minus 12. You can’t just take one out of context that happens to show figures you like.

Taking an average across the whole of June so far YouGov’s crossbreak for under 25s has the Conservatives on 31%, Labour on 38% – a significantly higher level of Labour support. Even that needs some caveating though. Opinion polls are weighted to be representative of the country as a whole, they are not necessary weighted so that the crossbreaks are internally representative. For example, overall there will be the correct number of people with a C2 social class, but there may be too few old people who are C2 and too few young people, or whatever. In theory this should even out over time, but there are no guarantees.

If you really want to know about the views of a particular sub-sample of the British population you need polling specificially aimed at them. Luckily enough, the Sun commissioned a specific YouGov poll of young people earlier this month, which was specificially weighted on things like education and employment status and level of educational qualification. It didn’t ask voting intention, but it did ask young people which party they thought best reflected their views – the results were 23% Labour, 12% Conservative, 7% Lib Dem, 7% Green, 6% UKIP, 39% none or don’t know.

In short, all the other findings that John Harris writes about on social and economic issues are fine (and are largely drawn from MORI’s generational data based on very large aggregate samples), but the idea that the Conservatives are suddenly the leading party amongst young people is really not true.


ttosca Sun 30-Jun-13 11:50:10


I note that you're as politically ignorant as ever. 'Progressive' isn't a word you can use in place of 'any group of people I don't like', and it doesn't mean 'the people in power'. In fact, if they're in power, it's more likely than not that they're not progressive, but conservative.

People go and educate yourself politically. Fox news and the Daily Mail are not credible news sources. They are entertainment sources.

ttosca Sun 30-Jun-13 11:52:04

> The majority of the country is right wing and John Harris found it heartbreaking to find out that the majority of the youth are too.

Nope, sorry, simply not true.

The majority of the entire population might be conservative with a small c, but they are not right-wing, and the majority of youth have consistently, for decades, been to the left of most of the population.

GobbySadcase Sun 30-Jun-13 11:58:01

I'm hoping one day you lot are forced onto disability benefits.
Then maybe the self congratulatory crowing and back slapping might mute.

Not everyone becomes reliant on the benefits system through choice.

GobbySadcase Sun 30-Jun-13 12:09:49

Oh and I'm not a labour luvvie. I despise them, too.
Whilst you're all gum flapping about the scroungers being the root of all evil and responsible for the country's financial ruin the real causes are laughing at you.

In the meantime RIP to the over 11,000 who have died in the past 18 months after being found 'fit for work'.

Hope you're proud of your 'civilised society'. If you measure our country by the adage that you can tell how civilised a society is by the way it treats its most vulnerable then we don't have a civilised society at all, merely a fetid cess pit of greed.

claig Sun 30-Jun-13 12:17:15

"In fact, if they're in power, it's more likely than not that they're not progressive, but conservative."

But this gets to the heart of what a conservative is and why the Conservative party have lost so many votes to UKIP.

Are the "conservatives" in power Thatcherite conservatives or are they progressives who champion carbon taxes, catastrophic climate change, windfarms and the polar bear?

UKIP has scooped up tens of thousands of former Tory voters because they are more like the Thatcherite style of conservative. Some of the progressives in the Tory party even apparently called some of their constituency members "swivel-eyed loons". Soon some of them may even commit the sacrilege of calling Maggie a "swivel-eyed loon". This is not conservative behaviour, this is progressive behaviour of the worst kind.

"The majority of the entire population might be conservative with a small c, but they are not right-wing"

Yes, I agree. they are essentially economically liberal and don't want higher taxation, and they are sceptical on climate change and are not in favour of more windmills.

"Hope you're proud of your 'civilised society'."
"I'm hoping one day you lot are forced onto disability benefits."

And I hope you are proud of yourself for such a disgusting statement; hoping that anyone becomes disabled.

claig Sun 30-Jun-13 12:23:27

No one has said that benefits for disabled people should be cut.

We want the taxi fares, the golden goodbyes, the salaries and perks of quangocrats and BBC bigwigs and NHS Trust bosses with their gagging clauses and rich landowners' taxpayer subsidies for erecting useless windfarms and all the other progressives dipping into the public purse to be cut.

If that happened, there would be more than enough money to go around and the economy would start booming again after that big burden had been lifted off the hardworking public's back.

claig Sun 30-Jun-13 12:29:47

"Whilst you're all gum flapping about the scroungers being the root of all evil"

No one has mentioned scroungers. All we have said is that the subsidised bars and canteens in the House of Commons should be scrapped, and they should pay their fair share to demonstrate how they are all in it together with everyone else.

claig Sun 30-Jun-13 12:35:12

No one is against benefits for the poor. We are against benefits for the rich, subsidised bars for the privileged and public bailouts for bankers.

We are against privatisation of profits and socialisation of losses. We are against ordinary people footing the bill for an elite class of quangocrats, bureaucrats and bigwigs who pay themselves huge salaries and have gold-plated pensions at the expense of ordinary workers who in large part don't even have pensions.

claig Sun 30-Jun-13 12:39:42

We are for accountability and transparency. We are for prosecutions of people in high positions of authority who preside over shocking scenes in our hospitals wghere ordinary people die of dehydration on our wards or die unnecessarily in our hospitals and where no one is adequately held to account.

We are for a better Britain, where there is real public service and where the public always comes first.

claig Sun 30-Jun-13 12:43:24

We are not anti the poor, we stand with the poor and demand a spotlight be turned on the rich elite who preside over the deterioration of our public services and our economy and our regulatory bodies and who are handsomely compensated for what is often incompetence.

We are for holding the elite to account, to make sure that they serve the public and serve the poor.

BrawToken Sun 30-Jun-13 12:52:29

I feel depressed after reading this. You lot (except the two speaking sense ttosca and gobby) should be rounded up and thrown in the Thames. Would be interesting to watch the survival of the fittest then, huh?

Thankfully I live in Scotland where we are, generally, a left leaning nation which believes in social democracy. Mind you I say that as someone who works in the public sector, is in a union and is passionate about the rights of disabled people so the people I cross paths with tend to share my views!

claig Sun 30-Jun-13 12:57:22

We are against the knighthoods for "services to banking" that New Labour bestowed. We only want knighthoods for "services to the people".

We want knighthoods and honours and accolades for people like Julie Bailey who campaigned for years with Cure the NHS to expose the unnecessary deaths that occurred in Stafford., not knighthoods for bankers.

We want the scum who have sent her death threats and desecrated her mother's grave arrested and jailed for a very long time. We want a message sent that anyone who threatens or abuses her, abuses the entire population.


twistyfeet Sun 30-Jun-13 13:15:28

all those things you want Claig are certainly not going to be to be supplied by UKIP or the right.

claig Sun 30-Jun-13 13:22:40

I will vote for any party that supplies them - I don't care if it is left, right or centre.

I am starting to think that UKIP might actually do a lot of it, because they are on the whole ordinary people who haven't got PPEs from top universities and who don't sit on quangos and aren't employed in charaitable trusts and social foundations and in third sector publicly funded roles.

PessimisticMissPiggy Sun 30-Jun-13 13:36:24


Wallison Sun 30-Jun-13 13:46:48

Nigel Farage went to public school, did he not? He might not have a PPE, I dunno, but if he doesn't it's only because he was too thick to get one, the guffawing prating fuckwit.

And I hardly think that Tories having a 2% lead in one poll in one tiny country is evidence of the middle classes rising up as one against those nasty nasty socialists. Still, keep frotting yourself - it's pretty amusing.

claig Sun 30-Jun-13 13:54:36

"the guffawing prating fuckwit"

Are you referring to his facial expressions when he spots a pint of ale?

He went to Dulwich School, which is a private school, and didn't go to university as afar as I know. But most of the party's candidates did not go to public schools as far as I know.

Wallison Sun 30-Jun-13 14:21:17

I'm just referring to how he is, which is a twat.

I do agree that UK politics is overrun with posh boys in all parties - the ultimate expression of this being the Bullingdon lot currently taking their wrecking ball to every safety net in sight, for shits and giggles as far as I can make out. And Labour are precious little better, and the lib dems have no spine.

But I don't think the answer to this is to vote for a party that is racist, sexist and full of pie-in-the-sky policies that would never actually work, headed up by fool.

beatback Sun 30-Jun-13 15:44:44

CLAIG. Once again people have assumed your thoughts on immigration,benefits and the N.H.S without reading what you are saying .That is because many of the posters on here have been brainwashed by the media to automatically discard thinking that is not from the mainstream politcal partys. Therefore unable to think about voting anyway different from the cradle to grave loyalty to thier chosen politcal party .It was very enlightening watching Question Time on thursday night from Newcastle, where it was evident that audience members under 30 were very dismissive of the labour repersentative and the economic nonsense coming from Balls and Milliband who with their face pulling have made Prime Ministers question time a joke. It is so childish i half expect Balls to start laughing and declare that your on "CANDID CAMERA" such is his Economic nonsense i dont think he actually believes it himself.

claig Sun 30-Jun-13 16:04:43

"such is his Economic nonsense i dont think he actually believes it himself"

If he does believe it , then he is madder than a march hare. I think he plays a good game, he plays a good act, but little of it is for real.

claig Sun 30-Jun-13 16:27:01

March hare

GobbySadcase Sun 30-Jun-13 16:56:52

YOU might not want cuts to disability benefits but that's what is happening and by and large unless directly affected themselves people are doing nothing.

In the meantime people are dying, as I said previously 11,000 in 18 months.

The review only this week has included disability benefits in the welfare cap. This is a dangerous move towards a system based on budget rather than need and does not acknowledge that with disability it costs to even approach a level playing field with others.

More will die. More will have to choose to heat or eat.

This is not solely aimed at the government, the opposition have said they will do the same.

So no, YOU might not mean this but those in power do. Every time you backslap on the wonders of welfare reform you further the entire thing, including disability cuts.

Bad things happen when good people do nothing. Right now people in my situation are stunned by the silence.

Wellwobbly Sun 30-Jun-13 17:10:10

'Labour have no answers. All they ever do is milk the taxpayer and waste the taxpayer's money and eventually leave notes saying "sorry, there's no money left".

This is what is so terrifying. NO politicians have any answers. This debt started when Nixon unlinked the dollar from gold in 1972.

It ceased to be an instrument of wealth, and instead became an instrument of debt. This is bigger than all of us, folks. The counterfeiting/printing of money 'quantitive easing' carries on apace.

Wellwobbly Sun 30-Jun-13 17:10:56

It is making the rich richer and the poor poorer.

Wallison Sun 30-Jun-13 17:22:13

Do people really still think that national debt is the same thing as household debt? Jesus, I'm far from being economically literate but even I know that it's a fatuous comparison.

beatback Sun 30-Jun-13 17:35:16

The system under any goverment even a Communist Goverment will be based on budget. Do you think 11000 people have died because they have had a few pounds cut from them though welfare cuts. I except it is very unfortunate and very difficult to live on benefits but i dont think 11000 people died just because of welfare reforms. The reason even the labour party will do the same is because of the gross waste in public expenduture there will never be enough money under any Goverment .However if you could eliminate the waste there would probably be enough money not to have to make benefit reforms. One of the biggest rip offs going on at the moment is "MOTABILTY" where in some cases people without any disabilty drive "BMW"s and "MERCEDES" all paid for by the state. I know about this because someone from my extended family who has a mild walking complaint as a brand new "GOLF" she knew she did not deserve the car but they kept on telling her she could have one, she tells me that she has friends who have Mercedes and Bmw convertibles and that the claiment does not even drive, its for their mate and the claiment even makes profit on the car i know of one family who have two houses on benefits and even rent out on of their council houses. If this kind of abuse was got under control people who though no fault of their own would need to suffer. Unfortunatly and this is not a party politcal point some people know how to work the system meaning that some people like O.A.Ps and people with disabilities and people who try to not abuse the system end up losing.

Wallison Sun 30-Jun-13 17:41:25

No. People who are being found fit for work are dying because they are clearly not fit for work and should never be put into the situation where they are told they are. The reason they are being told that they are is because politicians of all parties want to be seen to stomp on benefit claimants because they believe that they are seen as scroungers in the popular consciousness, and politicians want to engage with that consciousness rather than challenge it, because they are worried that if they challenge it they will lose votes. Also, especially in the case of the tories they are ideologically opposed to the welfare state and will take any opportunity to eat away at it. They don't care what happens to the people who will no longer be supported by it.

It's a fucking disgusting use of human capital to use benefit claimants in this way which has fuck all to do with fucking motability.

Wallison Sun 30-Jun-13 17:45:09

And horseshit 'bloke down the pub' stories about people getting free BMWs for no reason do nothing to change that.

beatback Sun 30-Jun-13 17:54:27

do you belive in 97% tax rate for high earners then. Anyone worth more than 150K should be put in prision for 5 years and have all assets taken and redistributed to the less fortunate.

Wallison Sun 30-Jun-13 17:57:22

Yes. Yes, I do. You can tell that because it's exactly what I said.

beatback Sun 30-Jun-13 17:57:55

You probably believe anyone with a 4 bedroom house in surrey is a rich bastard dont you.

Wallison Sun 30-Jun-13 17:58:58

Not only a firm grasp of economic theory but also a mind-reader. You should go on stage beatback - it's fucking uncanny.

beatback Sun 30-Jun-13 18:02:57


Wallison Sun 30-Jun-13 18:06:19


beatback Sun 30-Jun-13 18:21:30

Keynesian Chicago School/Monetarism/Gold Standard /Fractional Reserve banking. look im ready for my "SELL OUT" World tour. Chill out and dont be PERSONAL"

Wallison Sun 30-Jun-13 18:32:34

Can you eat fire as well? Or glass? That would be super-cool.

beatback Sun 30-Jun-13 18:37:37

I am going to audition for Britains Got Talent "I AM GOING TO SING ALL THE BRITISH PRIME MINISTERS" and their Economic theories.

Wallison Sun 30-Jun-13 19:11:29

Sounds like a grand night out.

GobbySadcase Sun 30-Jun-13 20:31:34

Everyone knows someone who is a fraud, eh?
Of course.
That's why I am getting spat at, verbally abused and my notability car criminally damaged.

If you know someone is defrauding report it, not snipe round here to distort perception even more than the media have.

TabithaStephens Mon 01-Jul-13 19:06:34

It is not the job of politicians to "challenge public consciousness"! They are there to represent their constituents in parliament, not to preach from on high and tell people what to think.

Wallison Mon 01-Jul-13 20:07:28

Oh really? I suppose all of this crap about "strivers and skivers", getting on your bike and looking for work, immigrants causing problems by not integrating, "hard-working families" not having suitable housing because of under-occupying (even though there is nowhere for under-occupiers to move to) etc etc etc ad infinitum isn't preaching then?

Wellwobbly Mon 08-Jul-13 10:52:59

And now Sean Thomas is joining in!

Revealed: how I posed as a Left-wing nutjob on the Guardian's Comment is Free – and got away with it
By Sean Thomas

I love the Guardian. I just do. I love Polly Tuscany’s shrill disapproval of frequent flyers, I love the fact that Seumas “Marxist” Milne went to Winchester College, I love those pricey Guardian seminars on How to be a Professional Travel Photographer, which followed their recent series of expensive lectures on Making a Profit from Typewriter Manufacturing.
But what I love most of all about the Guardian is Comment is Free. That’s their joyously nutty equivalent of Telegraph Blogs. Indeed I love Comment is Free so much, two years ago I joined the Guardian comment threads under a pseudonym to see just how crazily, pungently, sputum-frothingly Lefty I could be, and still be accepted as sane, indeed sagacious, by my fellow Guardianistas.
My first comment, in June 2011, following some picayune political row, was this:
“I can't believe you are all falling for this pitiful Tory decoy. What's new here? Everyone knows Gordon Brown was trying to unseat Tony; Brown was just trying to do his job as a politician, and as a morally centred human being, and keep Labour in power.
“If only Brown had succeeded earlier! Then we wouldn't be faced with this literally homicidal government. For God's sake, Muslims are being kicked in the teeth, GPs are being publicly horsewhipped, and disabled folk are literally having filth smeared across their faces, just so the Bullingdon Tory Boys can have a laugh.”
To be honest, I thought I might have crossed the line first time, and I would be rumbled as a trolling libertarian immediately. Yet this borderline-psychotic comment got six “recommends” from my fellow Guardian commenters.
They agreed with me.
I realised I had to go further. The next day, under a Polly Toynbee column about something-or-other (does anyone care? No) I wrote this:
“You tell them, Polly. I work mainly in the public sector in the north, and I see what is happening with my own two eyes. The chortling Tories are literally smearing filth over the faces of the poor, and pushing the heads of black people into leather buckets.
“I know two – TWO – babies that are literally starving TO DEATH because of Gideon Osborne. And disabled people are just left to rust like old tumble dryers.”
Surely, I reckoned, they must wise up now, surely the Guardian commentariat must realise I am satirising their enormous stupidities? I even left a hefty clue with the odd, obsessive repetition of the word “filth”.
Yet no. This comment got thirteen recommends. My comrades below the line were actually rallying to my flag.
At this point I almost gave up, defeated. But then I thought I’d give it one more bash, so I wrote this, underneath an article about the Johann Hari plagiarism scandal:
“I totally agree. OK he nicked some other people's quotes, from different interviews, and put them in his own articles, for a few years – so what? He was after the truth, and sometimes you have to cut corners.
“Look at the Mail or the Murdoch press, they destroy ENTIRE LIVES. Look at the government, literally smearing the faces of the Disabled in chicken filth.
“Look at Cameron and Osborne, strutting around in jackboots, stamping on the heads of hardworking women, kicking the faces of paraplegics, jumping up and down on the spines of the unemployed and cackling. Compared to that Hari is nothing.”
I was particularly proud of the accusation that the Government is LITERALLY “smearing the faces of the Disabled in chicken filth”, which is so ludicrous as to cause conniptions in the sane, whilst continuing my obviously schizophrenic obsession with chickens, filth, and literality.
The result? It got FORTY-FIVE recommendations from my fellow Guardian commenters. It was one of the most admired and agreed-with comments of the day. I had therefore proved that Guardian readers are LITERALLY delusional, and idiotic, and I had proved it in a particularly delicious way. Soon after that I quit, my work done, but the whole thing still gives me pleasure to this day.
And that, as I say, is why I love the Guardian.

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