Justice part 2.

(233 Posts)
MaryRobinson Wed 17-Apr-13 00:22:25

Here we go

MaryRobinson Wed 17-Apr-13 00:24:00

Please can we fill this one up too. It is my dream to start a thousand post thread.

Vadark?

grimbletart Wed 17-Apr-13 00:37:57

You can fill this up to 1,000 posts and I guarantee Vadark will still not answer Seeker's question. It is too logical for him and Vadark doesn't do logic.

MaryRobinson Wed 17-Apr-13 00:39:45

You may be right. I would like him to try though

CaptChaos Wed 17-Apr-13 06:21:19

Vadark has answered Seeker's question, although not straightforwardly.

He believes that women lie about contraception as standard.

He believes that women should take all responsibility for contraception, because poor subjugated men are forced to remove condoms and spend their lives working for women.

He is no doubt going to tell us that women should have no right to choose not to end a pregnancy, if their 'less privileged' male demands that she does. He is also going to suggest that, if a man doesn't want the woman to terminate, that that man should be able to force her to continue to with the pregnancy.

The language will be more flowery, but the end result will be the same. Reading this thread has almost turned me into a feminist, I honestly had no idea such dinosaurs still existed.

seeker Wed 17-Apr-13 08:33:50

Thank you.

Vardak- here are my questions again.

In the case of a genuinely accidental pregnancy, what should happen if the man wants to keep the baby and the woman doesn't? And what should happen if the woman wants to keep the baby and the man doesn't?

And.

If you had the power, what 3 laws would you implement today which would improve the situation for men?

To save time, I agree that there are more contraceptive choices available women than to men. This is largely because there are only two options, barrier and hormonal. And so far no effective hormonal contraceptive has been developed for men that has an acceptable level of side effects. I also agree that should she wish to do so, it is easier for a woman to lie to a man about her contraceptive status than it is for a man to lie to a woman.

However, the man still has to decide to take the condom off. Properly used, a condom is one of the most simple, reliable and safe methods of contraception- and it is entirely in the control of men.

seeker Wed 17-Apr-13 08:45:34

Oh, and I am icing a wedding cake today- so no bowls to lick. Only offcuts of marzipan......

YoniMatopoeia Wed 17-Apr-13 09:28:49

I don't olike marzipan sad

ilovexmastime Wed 17-Apr-13 09:29:29

Thank you Mary, for starting a new thread. It's just taken me two days to read through the last 1000 posts and I was worried that I might not get a chance to say hello and give my opinion.
I too have been waiting with baited breath for Valdark's answer to Seeker's question, but I think CaptChaos has probably answered for him. I think he's just an old fashioned misogynist at heart, despite his pleas to the contrary.
I must admit though, he has made me laugh (and read out the best bits to my DH) with his warped sense of logic and his claims that no one is listening to him. If I had the time or inclination I would go back and cut and paste every incident where one of you has agreed with him, only to be ignored.
In conclusion, I would say that the original thread did a great service to feminism, the posters were mainly polite, patient and clear and I have learnt a lot from it.

Pan Wed 17-Apr-13 09:48:38

Noooo!!

It's often useful to 'rub up' against people who you disagree with, as it helps to better define and refine your own views and opinions. But the half-baked, discriminatory nonsense offered didn't really do it, for me.
Esp. for those on the other thread, and will post on here, best wishes.

seeker Wed 17-Apr-13 10:23:37

<offer slightly overdone fruitcake trimmings>

seeker Wed 17-Apr-13 14:49:03

Just keeping it bumped up for Vardak.

AutumnMadness Wed 17-Apr-13 15:04:13

I am seriously disappointed that the political programme of one seriously active men's rights activist on this thread amounted to the desire to have sex without assuming responsibility for either contraception or the consequences. How primitive.

Vardak, men have no hope in this world if people like you are going to be representing them. Of all the possible genuinely serious challenges that men and boys face in our society you chose to spend 500+ messages defending your right to fuck without a condom and then do a runner on your child. This is seriously low.

YoniTime Wed 17-Apr-13 15:06:41

Why give him so much attention? You're all so awfully polite and patient with Mr Women-are-evil-succubus-whores-who-steal-sperm-and-then-my-money-too, and he can't even see that or appreciate it.

seeker Wed 17-Apr-13 15:23:01

Oh, I know, Yonitime, you're right. But I just wanted him to say that he thinks men should be able to tell a woman either to have an abortion or not have one. I really thought he might, sweet naive fool that I am........

seeker Wed 17-Apr-13 15:24:25

And I was genuinely interested in finding out what 3 laws he would implement. There are quite a lit of MRA out there- I d want to know more about them.

YoniTime Wed 17-Apr-13 15:42:12

Yes that would be interesting seeker but he seems to not want to answer constructive questions about what he wants for some reason, only complain.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Wed 17-Apr-13 17:07:27

YoniMatopeia, I'm voting for you if the Yoni N'C comp ever happens.

Never mind about cake mix, I've got S&M for tea. That's sausage and mash, before anyone gets worried about contraception...

YoniMatopoeia Wed 17-Apr-13 18:47:16

Thank you Doctrine.

So, will vadark find this do you think?

MaryRobinson Wed 17-Apr-13 19:18:30

Just while we're chatting, let me into the Yoni secret please?

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Wed 17-Apr-13 19:39:57

Yoni

Enjoy!

MaryRobinson Wed 17-Apr-13 20:51:14

Oh My Sacred Feminine Waters. That thread is funny!

YoniTime Wed 17-Apr-13 20:58:33

There is some seriously beautiful poetry on that thread.

Pan Wed 17-Apr-13 21:06:24

You do know HullDad is Vadark, don't you?

YoniTime Wed 17-Apr-13 21:08:54

I don't think so. HullDad was all about honouring the yoni<snicker>...I get the feeling that MRA's aren't interested in that.

YoniTime Wed 17-Apr-13 21:10:15

"What about lingams, huh? What are feminists doing about them?!"

YoniTime Wed 17-Apr-13 21:10:57

Lingam discrimination!

Pan Wed 17-Apr-13 21:11:37

Have you ever seen them post on the same thread at the same time? Conclusive.grin

Vadark Wed 17-Apr-13 21:37:17

"He believes that women lie about contraception as standard."

5 posts in and the bullshit starts flying. Show me where I said that they lie about contraception as standard. What I said and still claim is that women have more potential to be deceitful. Stop posting twisted words; it makes you look dumb.

"He believes that women should take all responsibility for contraception,"

Show me where I said that. Show me where I said women should take responsibility for ALL contraception. You can't, because you're twisting and making things up.

"because poor subjugated men are forced to remove condoms and spend their lives working for women."

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah....

"He is no doubt going to tell us that women should have no right to choose not to end a pregnancy, if their 'less privileged' male demands that she does. He is also going to suggest that, if a man doesn't want the woman to terminate, that that man should be able to force her to continue to with the pregnancy. "

I wouldn't bother trying to guess what I'm going to say because it really is pointless.

"The language will be more flowery, but the end result will be the same. "

The end result to anything is ALWAYS the same, because it is the end.

"Reading this thread has almost turned me into a feminist, I honestly had no idea such dinosaurs still existed."

Shaming and insults. Ducks back.

Vadark Wed 17-Apr-13 21:51:40

"To save time, I agree that there are more contraceptive choices available women than to men. This is largely because there are only two options, barrier and hormonal. And so far no effective hormonal contraceptive has been developed for men that has an acceptable level of side effects. I also agree that should she wish to do so, it is easier for a woman to lie to a man about her contraceptive status than it is for a man to lie to a woman. "

Seeker, I applaud you for sticking your neck out. Ok, so do you agree that it's safe to conclude that where a particular individual has more choice over someone else AND they have more potential to be deceitful, it follows that they have more power?

For example, at the time of intercourse, SHE has more knowledge of exactly what is going on i.e. full knowledge of her own body and the choices she made, as well as full visibility of his existent (or non-existent) condom.

HE can't really lie about anything. He either wears a condom, or he doesn't. And it's all visible to her.

So this really does give the woman more power.

Do you agree?

"However, the man still has to decide to take the condom off. Properly used, a condom is one of the most simple, reliable and safe methods of contraception- and it is entirely in the control of men."

No. This is where you're wrong. Because wearing a condom is NOT entirely in the control of the man. Shall I tell you why? Because if SHE wants him to wear one (which is entirely socially acceptable) and he doesn't want to, then she has the power to say NO I don't want sex then.

The woman ALWAYS has more power in these decisions. And, like you say, it's HER body, so surely she would use the power to do the right thing for herself. Yes?

Pan Wed 17-Apr-13 21:58:40

Ok, despite misgivings, I'm prepared to engage with you Vadark. I've obv read the previous thread and know this one so far. Long threads 'mature' so I'd wish this one to as well. I'd like to engage with you as it is rare to have a poster with some stamina, and argument, and shouldn't be dismissed as the usual troll type.

So I'd like to give you a benefit and enquiry. I don't feel hopeful about it, but "strive,seek, find" springs to mind.

Vadark Wed 17-Apr-13 22:02:39

"but I think CaptChaos has probably answered for him."

CaptChaos (an aptly named alias if I ever saw one) can only speak for themselves, nobody else.

"I think he's just an old fashioned misogynist at heart"

You'd just love that to be the case, wouldn't you, because then you would feel some amount of warmth and self-justification. Sadly, I'm not a misogynist. You'll find everything I stand up for is based on true equality and fairness to all, including men, women, children, no matter what race or religion. If that means having to argue against the shear amount of misandric hatred that is getting spouted out around here, then so be it. Have you ever stopped to listen to yourselves?

"In conclusion, I would say that the original thread did a great service to feminism"

I doubt it. Feminism is dying. And I can see why it's getting less and less accepted just by partaking in this thread and witnessing the shear level of self-importance exhibited by feminists. The selfishness is beyond compare.

YoniTime Wed 17-Apr-13 22:03:48

I actually have 2 questions for Vardark.
1. What's the purpose of your visit to Mumsnet?
2. Do you think it's common for women to remove the condom from a man during intercourse, or force him to do so, and force him into becoming a father?

Vadark Wed 17-Apr-13 22:04:21

"It's often useful to 'rub up' against people who you disagree with, as it helps to better define and refine your own views and opinions."

At last, some sense from Pan.

Vadark Wed 17-Apr-13 22:05:45

".....active men's rights activist on this thread amounted to the desire to have sex without assuming responsibility for either contraception or the consequences. How primitive. "

Who said that? Show me.

Pan Wed 17-Apr-13 22:14:01

Yes, thanks for that comment, Vadark. The problem is that having your views and opinions 'better defined' in this case, drives me, and CptChaos, more toward feminism it seems, which is a sort of unintended consequence?

As rhetoriticians, which posting here means we are, it's retrograde to 'distance your audience'. Often you have to roll with the punches and not respond to every quibble, which you seem to be doing.

I'm still a bit unsure as to why you wish to spend time here, when your natural audience and potential supporters lie elsewhere in cyberspace?

Vadark Wed 17-Apr-13 22:14:26

"Vardak, men have no hope in this world if people like you are going to be representing them"

I am NOT representing all men. I am simply telling you that feminism is outdated and selfish and needs to pull its socks up.

"....spend 500+ messages defending your right to fuck without a condom and then do a runner on your child. This is seriously low."

The moderators must know that you're an idiot for saying that. I'm sorry but I don't know what else to say other than you're an idiot for saying that I said something that I clearly didn't say. Hang on a second, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps someone else said it and you inadvertently confused them with me. Do me a favour and find the post where you thought I said that and I'll take it all back. I meann, seriously, what YOU have just done there, which is to blatently lie is the seriously low part. Dear me!

Pan Wed 17-Apr-13 22:17:35

c'mon Vadark, roll with the punches. Make your position on things arguable. Don't be taken down dark alleys of confusion. Seriously.

Vadark Wed 17-Apr-13 22:20:00

"Ok, despite misgivings, I'm prepared to engage with you Vadark."

I feel honoured. You got a four-pack of Duracells handy by any chance? And I'm really weary tonight cuz it's been a really hard day oppressing all those women out there. Phew, such hard work for a guy these days.

Pan Wed 17-Apr-13 22:22:56

Well, I'm being honest Vadark, no piss-taking or schmaltz at all. It's an invitation.

Pan Wed 17-Apr-13 22:29:53

<realises I've just offered someone 'out' on the internet!> grin

But you get the message, Vadark?

seeker Wed 17-Apr-13 22:33:52

"The woman ALWAYS has more power in these decisions.

Only if you think that men have an uncontrollable urge for sex. Personally, if I were a man, and a woman said "I won't have sex with you if you wear a condom" I would say "Fine-I'm off then.

Vadark Wed 17-Apr-13 22:34:25

"I actually have 2 questions for Vardark.
1. What's the purpose of your visit to Mumsnet?"

Edification and enlightenment. Pan gave you a good reason to listen.

"2. Do you think it's common for women to remove the condom from a man during intercourse, or force him to do so, and force him into becoming a father?"

Not via force in the way that you are inferring, no. But, it is likely that a woman could encourage it for various reasons. Perhaps they are in love at the time, or maybe she wanted the experience of feeling the 'real' sensation of...sorry, too much detail. I agree the same could be said for the man. However, don't forget that she can trick him if she really wanted to and he can't do that very easily.

The point I'm making is that SHE has more control and power over choices as well as FULL visibility and risk associated with a potential outcome. She has the edge over him and that's a fact.

So phase 1 is really in her hands, and it's HER body so surely she wouldn't want to screw it all up by failing to make the wrong choices that are at her fingertips??

Now, I'm certainly not saying that all women are like this. What I am saying is that some women who get themselves into a mess blame the man and that's quite simply unfair.

But we haven't even got to Phase 2 yet!

seeker Wed 17-Apr-13 22:36:22

Because that's exactly what I would say to a man who wanted to have sex with me without a condom if I didn't want a baby and i wasn't absolutely sure of whatever contraception I was using myself.

Anyway.nis that phase 1 over?

seeker Wed 17-Apr-13 22:38:22

You are remembering that my original question concerned a genuinely accidental pregnancy?

And you have noticed that the feminist hordes haven't descended on me and ripped out my liver because I agreed that women have more contraceptive choices than men?

Pan Wed 17-Apr-13 22:40:56

Links to other internet stuff, Vadark.

To do that here you:

type [[ then copy the address of the item. Then put in a space. then type the words you wish to title the reference. Then do a ]] at the end. People will be more inclined to click on it rather than have to c'n'p a whole hhtp address into a browser.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Wed 17-Apr-13 22:41:04

<holds Pan's coat>

<realises Vadark just said "it's HER body>

<faints>

<drops coat>

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Wed 17-Apr-13 22:45:25

I agree with seeker - women have more contraceptive choices.

(Piercing a condom can be done by either sex though, and would be pretty invisible.)

I also agree with seeker that i would say no to sex without a condom if someone was trying to persuade me out of condom use. either i would walk away or i might suggest other activities.

seeker Wed 17-Apr-13 22:45:56

Oooooooooh, are the boys fighting??????

Pan Wed 17-Apr-13 22:46:40

Well yes, you have a point about 'a good reason to listen'. But again, I'd imagine some petrol head type sites would be a better harvest,non?
And again the arguments you have posited so far drives me more to the feminist end of a 'spectrum'.

Still, I'm wishing to stay with your rhetoric, though we vastly disagree.

Pan Wed 17-Apr-13 22:50:34

not actually fighting seeker. Just virtual handbags...

seeker Wed 17-Apr-13 22:52:42

Well, it'll give Vardak another excuse not to answer my questions. Not that he seems to need one.

Vardak- please could you get on with it?

Pan Wed 17-Apr-13 22:54:11

Vadark - follow the suggestion I made re links, then 'preview message' button it to make sure it works?

Vadark Wed 17-Apr-13 22:58:19

"As rhetoriticians, which posting here means we are, it's retrograde to 'distance your audience'. Often you have to roll with the punches and not respond to every quibble, which you seem to be doing."

Pan, I can't allow people to put words in my mouth or say I've said things that I haven't said. It's just not right. And it's wasting people's time.

"I'm still a bit unsure as to why you wish to spend time here, when your natural audience and potential supporters lie elsewhere in cyberspace?"

I'm flabbergasted at the ignorance of men's issues and it really is time that they were brought to the table. Mike B is doing a grand job and he's keen to address some of the higher-level political issues like homelessness, suicide rates, DV against men, male health spend, positive discrimination etc. - all the things that get ignored for various reasons. I, on the other hand recognise many other softer issues (as well as the higher ones) that exist, which are related to behavioural mechanisms in society. These underlying social behaviors are indoctrinated into our young generation via the media etc. and get so deeply entrenched into the way people act and think, that the levels of acceptability get skewed based on what people are taught. These days, I honestly believe that women are respected more than men. Boys are taught from a young age that men are always the evil monsters. Children's books start this off from about the age of three. Adverts show men as bumbling idiots and programmes show no respect for men and continuously, relentlessly bombard our young generation with man-bashing. It's no wonder why society is turning out how it is and, dare I say, that some men are living out this evil notion and living up to such negative expectations.

For example, if you're of a particular religion and you are brought up to believe that circumcision is ok, then it is ok. Right?

seeker Wed 17-Apr-13 23:00:00

"For example, if you're of a particular religion and you are brought up to believe that circumcision is ok, then it is ok. Right?"

No. It isn't.

Are you going to address my questions or shall I go to bed?

Snorbs Wed 17-Apr-13 23:01:59

No. This is where you're wrong. Because wearing a condom is NOT entirely in the control of the man. Shall I tell you why? Because if SHE wants him to wear one (which is entirely socially acceptable) and he doesn't want to, then she has the power to say NO I don't want sex then.

Huh? The default position (assuming we're talking about non-criminal acts) is that two people aren't going to have sex unless they both consent. In your scenario you could just as equally say "If she wants him to wear a condom and he doesn't want to, then he has the power to say NO I don't want sex under these circumstances". And so they go back to the default position that they're not going to have sex.

How on earth do you take a situation of mutual consent and extrapolate that to the woman having more power?

Vadark Wed 17-Apr-13 23:02:34

"<realises Vadark just said "it's HER body>"

Yes, because if it's HER body, then you'd think she'd have the sense to know how to never get pregnant unless she definitely wanted a baby.

Cuz SHE has all the choices and power at the decision making stages.

Get it?

Vadark Wed 17-Apr-13 23:05:38

"ecause that's exactly what I would say to a man who wanted to have sex with me without a condom if I didn't want a baby and i wasn't absolutely sure of whatever contraception I was using myself."

Errm, yes, I agree. And?

The point is that you are correctly demonstrating the logical decision that a woman should make.

"Anyway.nis that phase 1 over?"

No.

Pan Wed 17-Apr-13 23:06:37

Vadark, no it isn't right that posters put stuff 'in your mouth that you didn't say'. But it happens. A lot. And round here too. But don't respond to them all. Otherwise you will just end up in that 'dark alley of confusion' and constantly trying to make up for other's mistakes?

Much better to ignore and stick to your own theme(s).

and fwiw I for one am nodding a bit to some of that large paragraph. But overall, it isn't women that is doing the undermining of men. It's us, ourselves, esp. those big issues you mention.
I'm off to bed, but I'll see you around soon.

Snorbs Wed 17-Apr-13 23:07:55

Vadark, can I make a guess? Would your answer to the as-yet unanswered question of What would Vadark like to happen in the case of an accidental pregnancy where the woman wants to keep the baby and the man does not be something along the lines of Then the man should be allowed to walk away and not pay any child maintenance?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 17-Apr-13 23:08:08

Yes, because if it's HER body, then you'd think she'd have the sense to know how to never get pregnant unless she definitely wanted a baby.

Can anyone spot vadark's mistake?

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Wed 17-Apr-13 23:10:05

No method of contraception, other than abstinence which you've discounted a priori, is 100% effective.

Vadark Wed 17-Apr-13 23:11:03

"Still, I'm wishing to stay with your rhetoric, though we vastly disagree."

Which inequality measure that I just listed from Mike's manifesto do you disagree with, exactly?

Vadark Wed 17-Apr-13 23:12:05

"Can anyone spot vadark's mistake?"

Oooo, I'm dying to know?

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Wed 17-Apr-13 23:12:23

When do we get to Phase 2?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 17-Apr-13 23:13:57

Vadark's mistake is that there is no 100% reliable contraception.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 17-Apr-13 23:14:43

I thought we were on phase 2 last night? <yawns>

Pan Wed 17-Apr-13 23:15:20

Well just about all of them Vadark - Mike doesn't have a 'manifesto' beyond blaming women for our own shortfalls.
night.

Vadark Wed 17-Apr-13 23:17:30

"Are you going to address my questions or shall I go to bed?"

Yeah, go to bed while I go and try to oppress more women. Such a busy life for me.

Oh, before you go, consider that power and choice (you agreed that she has more power in Phase 1) brings responsibility.

So if she has more power, then explain to me tomorrow why responsibility at the outcome of Phase 1 should be split 50:50.

Vadark Wed 17-Apr-13 23:19:24

"Vadark's mistake is that there is no 100% reliable contraception."

I agree that there is no 100% contraception, apart from celibacy. What's your point?

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Wed 17-Apr-13 23:19:40

People agreed the woman had more choices. Not more power.

Vadark Wed 17-Apr-13 23:20:07

Pan's gone to watch Babestation.

Vadark Wed 17-Apr-13 23:20:37

That was a joke.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 17-Apr-13 23:21:37

My point was that you said this : Yes, because if it's HER body, then you'd think she'd have the sense to know how to never get pregnant unless she definitely wanted a baby.

seeker Wed 17-Apr-13 23:22:10

No, I didn't agree that the woman had more power. I agreed that she had more choices of contraception available to her. Not the same thing at all.

The man always has the option to use a condom. Always. And if the woman puts pressure on him not to, then he always has the option of walking away. Always.

Could we go back to the genuinely accidental pregnancy?

Vadark Wed 17-Apr-13 23:29:54

"Huh? The default position (assuming we're talking about non-criminal acts) is that two people aren't going to have sex unless they both consent. In your scenario you could just as equally say "If she wants him to wear a condom and he doesn't want to, then he has the power to say NO I don't want sex under these circumstances". And so they go back to the default position that they're not going to have sex."

I agree.

"How on earth do you take a situation of mutual consent and extrapolate that to the woman having more power?"

Because SHE has more knowledge and visibility of the truth of the matter in hand and HE doesn't. I've explained that before and Seeker has agreed that women have more choice, knowledge, visibility and power at Phase 1 stage. They have more control over the outcome and can make a better assessment of the risk.

He can't. But you're right, he could always wear a condom and that would be very sensible, and they probably would after having read this thread.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 17-Apr-13 23:32:00

seeker didn't agree that women have more power in "phase 1". She's just said so.

Vadark Wed 17-Apr-13 23:33:54

Seeker - you said this.....:

"To save time, I agree that there are more contraceptive choices available women than to men. This is largely because there are only two options, barrier and hormonal. And so far no effective hormonal contraceptive has been developed for men that has an acceptable level of side effects. I also agree that should she wish to do so, it is easier for a woman to lie to a man about her contraceptive status than it is for a man to lie to a woman.
"

Would you like to replace the word "power" with something else then? Because ultimately, that's what she has. She has the power to be deceitful. Give me another word that you like then.

seeker Wed 17-Apr-13 23:37:06

I have agreed that women have more choice of contraceptive method. I have agreed that it's easy to see whether a penis has a condom on it or not.

I have not agreed that this gives women more power. If we are talking, and I presume we are, about consensual sex, both parties have an equal opportunity to say "no". A condom is one of the most reliable, accessible, safe, side effect free, cheap and easy to use contraceptives available.

seeker Wed 17-Apr-13 23:39:12

A man can also say that he has had a vasectomy, or that he is infertile.

Why won't you answer my questions, Vardak?

Vadark Wed 17-Apr-13 23:44:45

"Well just about all of them Vadark - Mike doesn't have a 'manifesto' beyond blaming women for our own shortfalls.
night."

But I'm not blaming women, I never have, not anywhere in this entire thread. What I have pointed out is that men are disadvantaged in areas that get ignored by feminism. And feminism could have been very strong if it would have stuck by its own philosophy and supported true equality by recognising men's rights as well as women's.

Instead, feminism just buries it's head in the sand and ignores men's issues because, it appears, they either don't care about men or perhaps even hate them, or are selfish. One or tother. Which is it?

And if men have shortfalls, even if it is their own fault, why would feminism just want to watch them sink? Do they get pleasure from that?

Men try to help women, even at their own expense. Feminism could have been even stronger if they dropped the selfish streak and started supporting EVRYONE.

Goodnight....

Vadark Wed 17-Apr-13 23:47:49

"A man can also say that he has had a vasectomy, or that he is infertile."

Nah, I'm not buying that one. We dismissed that in the original criteria. Remember, to keep it simple? The same applies for a woman, you see.

We have to talk about the DIFFERENCES in order to extrapolate the opportunities and outcomes for both sexes.

Vadark Wed 17-Apr-13 23:50:59

"I have not agreed that this gives women more power. If we are talking, and I presume we are, about consensual sex, both parties have an equal opportunity to say "no". A condom is one of the most reliable, accessible, safe, side effect free, cheap and easy to use contraceptives available."

Explain to me then why there are so many unwanted pregnancies if life is that simple!

Tell me what more choice, more reliable knowledge and better visibility of a given situation brings to an individual. Give me a word other than 'power' that you are comfortable with?

I really have to go......

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 17-Apr-13 23:56:57

There are many reasons for unwanted pregnancy. A lot of people have sex, and even with a 98% reliability rate of condoms (or whatever it is) that is still quite a few genuinely accidental pregnancies.

There are couples who use no contraception because they get caught up in the moment - with no trickery of either person involved.

Could you just answer seeker's questions before you go please?

seeker Thu 18-Apr-13 00:16:03

Just in case there is anyone new to this thread, the questions I put to Vardak were

In the case of a genuinely accidental pregnancy, what should happen if the man wants the baby and the woman doesn't, and if the woman wants the bay and the man doesn't?
And
If Vardak was catapulted to power, which three laws would he implement tomorrow which would improve things in his view.

He has completely refused to answer. I think we can all draw our own conclusions from that.

Tortington Thu 18-Apr-13 00:30:42

people are stupid - i reckon thats the answer for a fair proportion f unwanted pregnancies.

if all were simple with the world it would be thus

a man meets a woman.

the man doesn;t want a baby and so uses a condom

or
the woman doesn't wnt a baby and uses contraception.

now....even keeping in mind the small - very small margin of error with contraception, this does not account for the amount of unwanted pregnancies

because even with all the education - people still fuck and don't think of the consequences until it's too late

if you - make or female - do not want a baby - you take precautions.

its not about power or deceit. it is about taking responsability for yourself.

should people be jumping on top of each other until there is some bond of trust?

It follows therefore if a bond of trust in the form of a relationship took place, that it would be likley that a conversation could happen.

MaryRobinson Thu 18-Apr-13 09:27:07

So if she has more power, then explain to me tomorrow why responsibility at the outcome of Phase 1 should be split 50:50.

Because she only has 50% of the capability to produce a baby. You have this the wrong way round. A baby cannot be produced without a man's sperm, and he is responsible for it being in the woman's vagina - to borrow & amend your own phrase Yes, because if it's HER/HIS body, then you'd think s/he'd have the sense to know how to never get pregnant unless s/he definitely wanted a baby.
I believe this argument supercedes everything you've said about phase I/II, and courts all over the world agree with me, and have done for a generation or two.
The reason a man is responsible 50% is because the child is 50% his DNA and "but I didn't want a baby" counts for zero as well it should.

You talk about deception but really why would anyone who truly cares about not having a child have unprotected sex with a woman whose 'contraceptive status' he was unsure of? Why would you trust anyone to look after "Making-sure-I-Don't-Father-A-Child" if you wouldn't trust them with a key to your house/your bank PIN numbers/sending your application for a job they wanted for themselves?

And just for the record- talking about "more power" is moot when each man has sufficient "power" to ensure his sperm are where he wants them. It isn't power- it's choices

MummyPigsFatTummy Thu 18-Apr-13 11:17:06

I thought the question was about genuinely accidential pregnancies? What has all this guff about who has "power" over contraception got to do with that?

Surely, the question assumes that both parties acted in good faith and neither party intended a pregnancy? There was a genuine contraceptive failure of some sort.

What does Vadark think should happen then in the two scenarios Seeker raises?

MummyPigsFatTummy Thu 18-Apr-13 11:19:42

I know I have not been involved in this thread up until now but I have been reading it. I have de-lurked as I can't believe it has taken two nights and about a day and a half to not answer such a straightforward question.

ilovexmastime Thu 18-Apr-13 12:50:45

Oh please answer the questions! It's driving me mad...
Can you not see that we are being driven to come to our own conclusions about what your answers would be because of your slowness/refusal to answer? If you don't like the conclusions we are coming out with, as it would appear you don't, then just tell us what your answers would be, it's very simple.
Quite a few people here after taken the time and the trouble to debate wth you, so at least answer their questions.

seeker Thu 18-Apr-13 13:02:35

Don't let it drive you mad. I've made 200 cup cakes and a wedding cake and earned a couple of hundred quid while I've been waiting.

Propping up the patriarchy by making money out of weddings............grin

MummyPigsFatTummy Thu 18-Apr-13 15:10:54

He isn't going to answer though, is he? Because there is no answer. Society used to deal with the problem by making it a woman's problem. If a woman got pregnant outside marriage, she was a "fallen woman" and if the father wasn't interested, it was up to the woman to support the child however she could, or she would be persuaded or forced to have the child adopted, or whatever.

The problem of a man wanting a child and a woman not wanting it was far less of an issue because abortion was illegal, so unless a woman took the risk to her health and life of an illegal abortion, she would have to have the baby.

Going back to that scenario would be the only way to give a man "power" over the decisions a pregnant woman makes with regard to her pregnancy, and of course society has now moved on for many reasons, no doubt including feminism.

That is not to say there are not a number of ways in which this situation can be hard on men but, unfortunately, unless you want to roll back progress in such a way, the only 100% solution (apart from sterilisation) is abstinence until you are in a secure relationship where you trust the other person and both want the same thing (and, of course, the relationships board on here is testament to how even that is difficult to find).

Pan Thu 18-Apr-13 19:45:05

Vadark, this pregnancy thing has developed into a very long cul-de-sac, and you can v easily negotiate all of us out of it - simply indicate you'll have a nice think about it, taking on board what has been said, and come back later with a reconsidered view, even if it's the same view. Otherwise we are in lock-down.

As for the women-blaming bit, you're in danger of now blaming feminism for many of the ills that men suffer from, which is a slightly different take on the same approach. There really isn't any need to identify feminism as a failed source of support for men. It's undeniably true that men can improve their lot sans any feminist action or principles, by acting on our own 'equalist' convictions. That doesn't rely on any feminist behaviour or 'support'. They are immaterial. Have a bash at considering that for a bit?

and really stop re-posting every message that annoys you? Focus on your own ideas.

runningforthebusinheels Thu 18-Apr-13 20:31:50

The copying and pasting thing by vadark is very annoying.

At one point on the other thread he did about 6 posts on the trot, all in that style - it actually looked like he was arguing with himself.

Pan Thu 18-Apr-13 20:50:45

yes, 'self-generate'. If you have something worthwhile to say, say it and use the responses as a spring board for your rhetoric, rather than a stretch of quick sand.

<and other useful platitudes grin>

runningforthebusinheels Thu 18-Apr-13 20:54:15

It also makes the thread very hard to read, not flowing conversation as MN usually is.

Posting in this way also doesn't 'win' him the argument, although he seems to think it does.

Vadark Thu 18-Apr-13 21:13:19

"people are stupid - i reckon thats the answer for a fair proportion f unwanted pregnancies. "

Totally agree.

"a man meets a woman.
the man doesn;t want a baby and so uses a condom
or
the woman doesn't wnt a baby and uses contraception.
now....even keeping in mind the small - very small margin of error with contraception, this does not account for the amount of unwanted pregnancies
because even with all the education - people still fuck and don't think of the consequences until it's too late
if you - make or female - do not want a baby - you take precautions."

Agree 100% so far.

"its not about power or deceit."

No. You simply can't ignore this part, just as you didn't ignore the fact that people are stupid.

"it is about taking responsability for yourself."

100% agree

seeker Thu 18-Apr-13 21:15:09

Is there any hope at all of you answering my questions, Vardak?

Vadark Thu 18-Apr-13 21:15:25

Stand back. I am about to do my first proper link.

www.avoiceformen.com/video/how-women-look-at-men-these-days/

Vadark Thu 18-Apr-13 21:17:45

"Is there any hope at all of you answering my questions, Vardak?"

It depends on how many dumb posts from others that I have to keep responding to!

seeker Thu 18-Apr-13 21:17:54

"This video currently unavailable"

Why not answer my questions while they fix it?

seeker Thu 18-Apr-13 21:18:41

"It depends on how many dumb posts from others that I have to keep responding to!"

Ignore them. Answer my questions.

Pan Thu 18-Apr-13 21:24:36

Good link technique!

But the content? An ad for BMW? Was hoping for a bit more from you tbh.

Vadark Thu 18-Apr-13 21:25:07

"The reason a man is responsible 50% is because the child is 50% his DNA and "but I didn't want a baby" counts for zero as well it should."

But you're not even considering Phase 1 i.e. the CIRCUMSTANCES upon HOW the baby got there! Now, if I suggested that the man were to force himself upong the woman OR HE deceived HER....in that case I'm sure you wouldn't be saying that she is 50% responsible, would you?

"And just for the record- talking about "more power" is moot when each man has sufficient "power" to ensure his sperm are where he wants them. It isn't power- it's choices"

Phase 1 I'm talking about choices, risks, potential deceitfulness and visibility. All of which appear to provide the female with the upper hand.

When you give someone these tools it defaults to the fact that they have more power or control of the potential outcome. It's really quite simple.

Vadark Thu 18-Apr-13 21:26:13

"But the content? An ad for BMW? Was hoping for a bit more from you tbh."

It's on Mike's blog. Blame him; he's a man.

seeker Thu 18-Apr-13 21:36:39

Are you going to answer the questions?

Vadark Thu 18-Apr-13 21:37:12

"I thought the question was about genuinely accidential pregnancies? What has all this guff about who has "power" over contraception got to do with that?"

Control and power is a consequence of having more tools, more knowledge, more information, better visibility etc. in a given situation.

"Surely, the question assumes that both parties acted in good faith and neither party intended a pregnancy? There was a genuine contraceptive failure of some sort."

You're ignoring the potential for stupidity and deceit or even neglectfulness, which can cut both ways for men and women in general, but is NOT 50:50 in Phase 1 based on circumstances that I have explained a million times.

We're not moving to Phase 2 unless we take into consideration the difference in choice, potential to deceive, information available to the best of their knowledge and visibility. And the fact that this entire situation does in fact give your daughters the upper hand.

The fact that it is HER body at stake, too, makes it all the more important for HER to get it right before she gets herself in a Phase 2 situation.

runningforthebusinheels Thu 18-Apr-13 21:37:17

I wouldn't say that a woman who is raped is 50% responsible for the rape - her responsibility for the rape is exactly zero.

However, what is indisputable is that a pregnancy as a result of a rape has an effect on HER body, not the rapists. It is her that has to make a choice between having the baby, or a termination - as well as dealing with the trauma of the actual rape - all of which will affect her physically and emotionally for a long time.

Vadark Thu 18-Apr-13 21:40:12

"re you going to answer the questions?"

What was the question again?

Vadark Thu 18-Apr-13 21:42:04

"I wouldn't say that a woman who is raped is 50% responsible for the rape - her responsibility for the rape is exactly zero.

However, what is indisputable is that a pregnancy as a result of a rape has an effect on HER body, not the rapists. It is her that has to make a choice between having the baby, or a termination - as well as dealing with the trauma of the actual rape - all of which will affect her physically and emotionally for a long time."

Yes, I completely agree with you. And the reason I agree is because the level of control she had was less in the lead up to an outcome.

See?

MaryRobinson Thu 18-Apr-13 21:43:14

Forced sex is rape. Always the perpetrators responsibility.

If by deception ... Then yes it is 50% the woman's responsibility, I can think of two threads off-hand in relationships where men Massively deceived women who have been left with nearly all the fall out never mind 50%. Women have had sex and continued pregnancies with men on the basis of "But he sai he loved me/would stand by me/would marry me" for a long time. Do they have to deal with 50% of the consequences.... Usually much much more.
Or are you talking about something else?

MaryRobinson Thu 18-Apr-13 21:45:43

See. No I don't

It is because Rape is a crime. Consensual sex performed without due diligence is not.

Dadthelion Thu 18-Apr-13 21:45:46

Unless you're not aware of how reproduction works I can't see how you can accidentally pregnant.

runningforthebusinheels Thu 18-Apr-13 21:46:55

The man in phase 1 has the same options as the woman regarding ability to use a condom and ability to say no. He has a responsibility for his fertility just as the woman does. 50-50.

seeker has agreed that a woman has more choice in the method of contraception. She has even agreed that the woman has a greater opportunity for deceit. Myself, I'm very dubious about that, because the man has a responsibility to smell a rat in the event of her refusing to wear a condom, and he has the opportunity to walk away.

For this reason I can't agree that the woman has more 'power' at phase 1.

Pan Thu 18-Apr-13 21:57:56

There's no 'blame' being apportioned here, Vadark (tho' you posted it so it's your responsibility?)

It tells us that women like men in big cars and will have sex with them as a result of that fact. That's a male fantasy. Not a smidgeon of relevance to life at all.

Vadark Thu 18-Apr-13 21:58:49

Ok, let's move to Phase 2 quickly and assume that a pregnancy is underway. Let's get the easy ones out of the way. Both want baby, both have baby. Both don't want baby, termination takes place. Ok?

So, my point is that if she wants the baby and he doesn't, despite the fact that there will probably be an awful lot of arguing and disagreement, the fact of the matter is that he won't get a choice as far as the law is concerned. If he wants to terminate because he's not ready to be Dad, people just say "well, you should have kept your pants on". They won't even consider the circumstances of Phase 1. He will then be forced into Fatherhood and if he's a bad Father he is likely to be labelled a deadbeat, good-for-nothing, useless bum. She can kick him out, too, and it's also socially acceptable for her to make it difficult for him to see the child, even if he did happen to want contact once it was born. He has to pay child support, most people side with the Mother etc. etc.

Not a great place to be for the guy.

And don't forget, it is entirely possible that SHE was the negligent one in Phase 1 or potentially could have tricked him. It happens. A lot.

On the other hand, if SHE doesn't want the baby and yet he DOES want it, well, it's HER body and regardless of the fact that SHE had more control in Phase 1 over the outcome, the fact that it is HER body completely outweighs the fact that the baby is 50% his. So the outcome is a sure fire termination, regardless. And what's more, nobody even blinks an eye that SHE want to terminate a life. SHE doesn't get labelled a deadbeat mother. Instead, people sympathise far more than they would if the man wanted to terminate.

So in both possible situations during Phase 2, the male gets no control over the decision and gets the crappy end of the stick, whatever.

Vadark Thu 18-Apr-13 22:02:30

"Forced sex is rape. Always the perpetrators responsibility. "

Agree, now what about forced deceit? Is there such a thing? Does it exist? Think about it. Think about the implications for the victim.

Vadark Thu 18-Apr-13 22:03:52

"It is because Rape is a crime. Consensual sex performed without due diligence is not."

But what about consensual sex with a mix of deceit whereby the outcome has serious implications?

CoalDustWoman Thu 18-Apr-13 22:04:36

I really don't know why any of this is a worry for you, Vadark. Your dates must be bored to sleep before Phase I.

Vadark Thu 18-Apr-13 22:05:19

"If by deception ... Then yes it is 50% the woman's responsibility,"

What, even if she did 100% of the deception?

seeker Thu 18-Apr-13 22:08:52

One thing I would like to know- how do women force men not to use condoms?

If a man told me he had had a vasectomy, I wouldn't automatically belive him and have unprotected sex with him. Why do men have sex without using a condom unless they want, or are prepared to deal with a baby?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 18-Apr-13 22:09:35

grin at coaldustwoman.

Vadark Thu 18-Apr-13 22:10:11

"The man in phase 1 has the same options as the woman regarding ability to use a condom and ability to say no. He has a responsibility for his fertility just as the woman does. 50-50."

Firstly, we see lots of media videos teaching girls to say no. When was the last time you saw one tha teaches boys to say no? Secondly, it's not 50:50 when one person has an advantage to deceive. It happens a lot and it's a very real thing.

"seeker has agreed that a woman has more choice in the method of contraception. She has even agreed that the woman has a greater opportunity for deceit. Myself, I'm very dubious about that, because the man has a responsibility to smell a rat in the event of her refusing to wear a condom, and he has the opportunity to walk away."

Yeah, but women can get what they want, and you know it!

"For this reason I can't agree that the woman has more 'power' at phase 1."

Whatever.

runningforthebusinheels Thu 18-Apr-13 22:11:02

vadark - you still haven't convinced me that the man has less power in phase 1 - because he can walk away or put on a condom. Always.

Your scenarios are only look at it from the male point of view. In the event of an unwanted pregnancy the woman has to make a choice - termination or give birth and raise a child. She can't just make herself 'unpregnant' again.

For years and years now both girls and boys have had sex education to tell them that responsibility for a contraception is 50-50 and that any sexual encounter could lead to a pregancy.

I don't know what your problem is with this concept. Use a condom. And understand that even using a condom can result in a pregnancy.

Pan Thu 18-Apr-13 22:11:32

Phase 1. Phase 2. It's too much like the off-side rule, which no-one understands anyway. 'Are you being passive or active?'. 'Are you interfering with play?'. If not, why not?

Oh I see the analogy!

runningforthebusinheels Thu 18-Apr-13 22:12:42

When was the last time you saw one tha teaches boys to say no?

Is Mike campaigning for introducing them? And to accept "No?" We might just have found some common ground between Mike and I there.

Vadark Thu 18-Apr-13 22:14:02

"One thing I would like to know- how do women force men not to use condoms? "

They don't force them. But there is potential for them to mislead or decieve them, which happens, a lot. Young males aren't educated enough to realise what potentially could be happening right under their noses. Young males are disadvantaged throughout Phase 1 and Phase 2.

Warn your Sons before you end up being a very disapointed Grandma!

Tortington Thu 18-Apr-13 22:15:07

"Firstly, we see lots of media videos teaching girls to say no. When was the last time you saw one tha teaches boys to say no? "
Good point if it were true
but

do we see lots of these videos in the uk - i've never seen one - are the Tories promoting abstinence now? ( serious question)

however this is ultimately your responsibility as a parent. not the governments responsibility

"Secondly, it's not 50:50 when one person has an advantage to deceive. It happens a lot and it's a very real thing."

prove it with statistics, other wise you are abdicating men of their responsability over their own contraceptive choice - actually, i dont think most men want you to do this on their behalf.

the irony is i think you think you are campaigning for men, but you are taking away their ability to choose by saying that they dont ( they do) and putting them in the position of victim

Tortington Thu 18-Apr-13 22:16:43

pmsl at women can get what they want - rather than stupid men are led by their dicks

wrap your cocks boys or shut your moaning gob about it

seeker Thu 18-Apr-13 22:19:45

How can you be mislead or deceived into not using a condom?

Vadark Thu 18-Apr-13 22:19:51

"It tells us that women like men in big cars and will have sex with them as a result of that fact. That's a male fantasy. Not a smidgeon of relevance to life at all."

Equally, one could say it tells us that men like sex with women and they will splash out cash and support them as a result of that fact.

Perhaps that sound more relevant? Semantics.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 18-Apr-13 22:21:13

<tries new tactic>

Vadark - say, for argument's sake - we agree that a woman who deceives a man in this way is despicable. I think it is, and I agree that it does happen.

Now - let's try seeker's question again. What, in the event of a genuinely accidental pregnancy, when the man wants the child and the woman doesn't, would you want to happen?

And if the woman wants the baby, but the man doesn't?

What should happen in your view?

Or do you just want to moan about how bad men have it? (They don't)

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 18-Apr-13 22:25:11

Btw - even when a man is "tricked" into impregnating a woman - I still believe he has 50% responsibility. The reason being that he had the choice to use contraception - but he waived that choice. He must know that even if she says she is on pill that the pill isn't an infallible method of contraception.

Tortington Thu 18-Apr-13 22:26:00

"Equally, one could say it tells us that men like sex with women and they will splash out cash and support them as a result of that fact."

that makes you a slave to your cock
and
STUPID

Pan Thu 18-Apr-13 22:26:04

oh nooo! As a result of that observation, I'm deducing you've had what you see as poor experiences with women. And that men will spend lots of money in order to have sex with women. That isn't a matter of 'supporting them'. It's just an expensive shag. And you won't be respected in the morning for it.smile

How old are you Vadark?

Vadark Thu 18-Apr-13 22:26:55

"however this is ultimately your responsibility as a parent. not the governments responsibility "

No. No. No. It's the Governments responsibility to educate and guide society in the right direction. And that includes teaching parents.

Do you think you would be belting up your children in the car or putting them in a nice, safe booster seat if the Government hadn't invested in a campaign 35 years ago?

The Government needs to wake up and recognise that boys are being harmed physiologically and emotionally as part of today's feminised culture. I told you, feminism has brought some very good things to the table, but now it is failing and they need to quit the childish selfishness and begin to look at the bigger picture before they cripple themselves.

MaryRobinson Thu 18-Apr-13 22:29:13

Consensual sex with a mix of deceit & serious consequences. Isn't that where due diligence comes into play? Although I do make a special case for infecting someone else with HIV.

Do men really do this little thinking until she's pregnant.

seeker Thu 18-Apr-13 22:30:12

How can men be misled or deceived into not using condoms?

Tortington Thu 18-Apr-13 22:30:34

NOPE - SORRY its your responsibility - oh, you don't like that word do you PMSL!

always someone elses fault - boo hoo

the govt should tell me to wrap my cock

REALLY?

Women shouldn't persuade me with their vaginas, i can't help myself, i am a slave to my cock

MaryRobinson Thu 18-Apr-13 22:31:46

Feminised culture? Really? Young men are exposed to hyper-masculine rhetoric in videos, in CoD and that's before you even mention the Porn.

Vadark Thu 18-Apr-13 22:31:52

"How can you be mislead or deceived into not using a condom?"

It happens. You tell me. I admit that the guys are stupid for allowing these things to happen.

Perhaps there isn't enough advice for boys regarding the reality of the potential outcomes and the causal links with the lack of control they have in Phase 1 ?

Perhaps the Government should focus on a campaign that shows the potential for boys to be manipulated and that they should just say "no".

What do you think?

runningforthebusinheels Thu 18-Apr-13 22:32:48

No, today's society and scientific/legal advances like contraception and abortion just mean that women have more control over their fertility. Men can't dismiss women that get accidentally pregnant as 'sluts' anymore. They are told from an early age that they are 50% responsible for any children that they father - and quite right too.

Some men have a problem with that.

MaryRobinson Thu 18-Apr-13 22:34:53

Why not tell guys not to be stupid (AKA Being Responsible) rather than blaming the woman by labelling it deception?

Pan Thu 18-Apr-13 22:36:58

oh forget feminism, and advising feminists how to campaign/behave Vadark. Look to yourself. You seem to be quite easy to delegate your responsibilities as a man to people/women outside of you.

< I nearly said man up,but I didn't>

MaryRobinson Thu 18-Apr-13 22:37:56

Would that potential for manipulation include the unrealistic/false expectations created by porn? The way peer pressure encourages them to label/see girls as slags or frigid?

Tortington Thu 18-Apr-13 22:39:16

if the argument is that men are regularly decieved into not putting on a condom
they are stupid slaves to their own cock - and need a work with themselves

IF THIS happens on a wider scale it means a fair proportion of men are slaves to their cocks and stupid

runningforthebusinheels Thu 18-Apr-13 22:39:33

Don't make me laugh about 'feminised society.'

Because women have the vote, a few anti-discrimination laws, a few seats in parliament and control over their own bodies and fertility -suddenly it's a feminised society?

Tortington Thu 18-Apr-13 22:40:38

perhaps parents should teach their kids to say no because its a parents responsibility

seeker Thu 18-Apr-13 22:42:15

"How can you be mislead or deceived into not using a condom?"

It happens. You tell me. I admit that the guys are stupid for allowing these things to happen."

But how does it happen?

Tortington Thu 18-Apr-13 22:43:49

you're doing mankind a disservice. most men i know can use their brains not their dicks .

Vadark Thu 18-Apr-13 22:47:03

"Now - let's try seeker's question again. What, in the event of a genuinely accidental pregnancy, when the man wants the child and the woman doesn't, would you want to happen?"

But don't you see? You simply can't deduce that there ever IS an accidental pregnancy. It's either down to neglect, stupidity or maybe even deceit. Before I answer, you need to remember that SHE had more control over this outcome for reasons that I've explained.

The fact is that because it is HER body, she will get the decision made and agreed to kill hers AND HIS baby.

So contrary to what you all thought, I think that SHE should get a termination based on the fact that biology has dealt women with a privilege that affords them a huge element of power and control.

There, you see, I've answered and you're shocked. But do you know what? I want you to think about the consequences for HIM for a change instead of just reeling off the usual old pathetic "well he should have kept his pants on" line! I want you to realise that it is the MAN who has to live with the lack of control and the potential of deceit and manipulation. I want you to realise that it is often the MAN who gets the shitty end of the stick. I also want you to realise that it is highly likely that 1 in 3 or 4 of you on this thread will get court up in this as your Sons and daughters mature and have sex.

Finally, in this situation, we never get to Phase 3, which falls in line with what the female wants.

I suppose you want me to answer the other question, too. Anyone want to guess what my answer will be to that one as well? I may not have time tonight.

Snorbs Thu 18-Apr-13 22:48:08

OK Vadark, let's run with your scenario for a while - some dastardly woman has hatched an evil plot to secretly manipulate a poor innocent man into having unsafe sex with her. All he wanted was to have a casual shag but due to her conniving and scheming, it's ended up in pregnancy. He's shocked, shocked, to discover that heterosexual intercourse can sometimes result in a pregnancy. They disagree over what they should do.

In that scenario (and I'm not going to touch on how often such a scenario actually plays out; let's just run with it as stated) you would be absolutely correct that, from the moment of conception, the law states that what happens to the pregnancy is down to the woman.

In your ideal world, what do you think would be a better way of dealing with this? How would you want it to be handled if the woman wanted this deceitful pregnancy to continue but the man didn't? What about if it was the other way round?

seeker Thu 18-Apr-13 22:51:00

I actually don't understand your last post at all, Vardak.

MaryRobinson Thu 18-Apr-13 22:55:06

Phew Seeker. Neither did I.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 18-Apr-13 22:56:36

no vadark, I don't see. Not at all.

MaryRobinson Thu 18-Apr-13 22:58:39

Night Night all. Looking forward to reading the overnight progress

Pan Thu 18-Apr-13 22:59:26

can we at all move to other items on the 'Justice' manifesto? Like healthcare, suicide, violence, DV, political representation, family court, criminal justice, addictive substances, care for family members who are old/ill, poverty, equal pay for eg? Or are we stuck in this particular circle of hell ad nauseum?

Vadark Thu 18-Apr-13 23:00:44

"Feminised culture? Really? Young men are exposed to hyper-masculine rhetoric in videos, in CoD and that's before you even mention the Porn."

What I meant by "feminised" is that the cogs of society are oiled only in a way that the outcome is beneficial to women. For example, Cod shows and encourages glorified, hyped-up man killing man fun. So thanks, good example. And Porn, well, don't get me started on that one. You see, it takes two to tango and from what I can tell, the woman is having sex, the man is having sex, they both appear to be enjoying it. He gives pleasure to her and she gives pleasure to him. He sometimes puts her in a submissive position and she sometimes sticks her nashers around his privates and puts him in one. Men look at porn. And more and more, women do too. Boys at school bring pictures in on phones. Girls do too. Boys talk about girls bits. Girls talk about boys bits. Porn stars all get paid and want to do the job.

But I guess you're going to tell me how oppressed women are when it comes to porn and how degrading it makes women look and how evil men are. And how it has an effect on female body image but not men. Yes?

Tortington Thu 18-Apr-13 23:01:24

if he doesn't want a baby he should use a condom

HOW CAN IT BE MORE COMPLICATED?

Tortington Thu 18-Apr-13 23:04:06

p.s. i've got grown up kids

all of which have managed this far not to have babies

2 /3 are boys

and 2/3 are in a long term relationship

thats becuase i taught them all to use contraception and i did not absolve responsability to the government

runningforthebusinheels Thu 18-Apr-13 23:04:16

vadark, you have no idea at all. Like the decision to terminate is a walk in the park for women? Like the decision to go through an unplanned pregnancy without the support of a partner is easy?

Women have more choices for contraception at phase1, sure. But a lot of those choices aren't suitable for all women - hormonal contraception is not always available to women and has side effects. The MAP is a massive does of hormones which has risks to the woman's health. An abortion can have a long term impact on a woman's emotional health.

To say that women have the privilege just because they make the decision on what happens to their body in the event of an unplanned pregnancy is just man-centric.

Vadark Thu 18-Apr-13 23:05:18

"I actually don't understand your last post at all, Vardak."

Exactly which bit didn't you understand? Or perhaps you were just so shocked by what I said?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 18-Apr-13 23:07:29

Vadark - you're post at 11.00 isn't worthy of an answer. What planet are you on? You're showing your true colours.

Myself and 2 other posters (and plenty others I'm sure) did not understand what you were going on about in your post that was supposedly an answer for seeker's question. I'm shocked by your misogyny, yes.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 18-Apr-13 23:08:02

*your blush

grin

Vadark Thu 18-Apr-13 23:08:15

"if he doesn't want a baby he should use a condom

HOW CAN IT BE MORE COMPLICATED?"

Don't worry your head about it, Custardo, you just keep telling him to wear a condom until you want a baby.

Vadark Thu 18-Apr-13 23:10:42

"p.s. i've got grown up kids

all of which have managed this far not to have babies

2 /3 are boys

and 2/3 are in a long term relationship

thats becuase i taught them all to use contraception and i did not absolve responsability to the government"

Then I respect you for having done that. Good for you and keep up the good work. I mean that. But not everyone is as smart. As such, men and boys can get manipulated and abused, too, you know.

Tortington Thu 18-Apr-13 23:12:20

My husband did not want further children and so had a vasectomy. shock i know, a man who took responsability for how many children he wanted and didn't say 'my dick made me do it i find vagina so irrisistable it's simply not my fault'

Tortington Thu 18-Apr-13 23:13:44

some men and boys can be manipulated and abused

some women and girls can be manipulated and abused

what is your point?

Pan Thu 18-Apr-13 23:14:37

ok. Can someone sound a MN klaxon when we've move on?
night.

Vadark Thu 18-Apr-13 23:15:03

"Vadark - you're post at 11.00 isn't worthy of an answer. What planet are you on? You're showing your true colours.

Myself and 2 other posters (and plenty others I'm sure) did not understand what you were going on about in your post that was supposedly an answer for seeker's question. I'm shocked by your misogyny, yes."

Don't you realise that it's YOU that blames men for everything, not the other way around. I'm shocked at your misandry.

And you won't answer my point about porn because that's yet another area that has seen feministic indoctrination imprinted upon society in a way that sees only boys as the perpetrators and only girls as the victims.

Are you sure you don't want to talk about it? It could be fun, and enlightening to hear that there are more opinions to be heard than just women's.

Vadark Thu 18-Apr-13 23:18:21

"vadark, you have no idea at all. Like the decision to terminate is a walk in the park for women? Like the decision to go through an unplanned pregnancy without the support of a partner is easy?"

Yes, I agree and I don't dispute that part. But I've outlined the root cause of the issue as part of Phase 1 conditions. Nobody thinks of the man's rights and feelings in all of this.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 18-Apr-13 23:19:06

<searches for point about porn>

Yes, it's bollocks. Mainstream porn is mainly aimed at men, mainly made by men and shows women enjoying violent male fantasies. What was your point? Porn does absolutely nothing to prove your point about a "feminised society". It demonstrates the exact opposite.

Vadark Thu 18-Apr-13 23:19:47

"can we at all move to other items on the 'Justice' manifesto? Like healthcare, suicide, violence, DV, political representation, family court, criminal justice, addictive substances, care for family members who are old/ill, poverty, equal pay for eg? Or are we stuck in this particular circle of hell ad nauseum?"

Yep, agree that there is just soooo much to talk about when it comes to men's rights.

runningforthebusinheels Thu 18-Apr-13 23:24:03

No vadark - you haven't demonstrated anything at all about phase1 - except the fact that you believe women lie about contraception, trick a guy into getting her pregnant, oh, or some women abort men's babies against their wishes.

Do you believe that the fact that women have an opportunity to 'trick' women into getting her pregnant, and that some (a few) women do, absolves a man of his responsibility to take responsibility for his own contraception and use a condom?

Vadark Thu 18-Apr-13 23:31:59

"Yes, it's bollocks. Mainstream porn is mainly aimed at men, mainly made by men and shows women enjoying violent male fantasies. What was your point? Porn does absolutely nothing to prove your point about a "feminised society". It demonstrates the exact opposite."

What a load of clitoral nonsense. (do you like the way I used a word related to your genitals that degrades you in a subtle sort of way?).

I really don't know what sort of porn you watch but "violent male fantasies"? I should switch over to the other 99% of regular porn if I were you! Also, women make more money out of porn than men do. Go look it up and see what the actors and actresses earn. I guess you could say that women (or at least those in the porn industry) use their sexual power over men to gain financially. That's female power at work, not male power. Women don't HAVE to participate in porn, but they do! Yet you still blame men - the usual story.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Thu 18-Apr-13 23:34:35

"Don't worry your head about it Custardo, you just keep telling him to wear a condom until you want a baby"

Substitute "you want" for "he wants" and, by George, you've got it!

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 18-Apr-13 23:35:50

I'm not offended by the term clitoral or bollocks, vadark. Rather than derailing and talking about porn - believe me, we will never agree on that point - could you please just try clarifying your post wher you apparently answered seeker's question?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 18-Apr-13 23:37:12

My god, doctrine - I think you've got it! smile

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 18-Apr-13 23:37:38

(vadark won't though)

Vadark Thu 18-Apr-13 23:38:25

"Do you believe that the fact that women have an opportunity to 'trick' women into getting her pregnant, and that some (a few) women do, absolves a man of his responsibility to take responsibility for his own contraception and use a condom?"

I think there should be campaigns designed to highlight the issues that men and boys face and the consequences and lack of control they have. I think the campaign should advise boys to say "no". Boys should be warned that girls can be evil and deceitful too! It would be a better World if that happened, I'm sure of it.

So, yes, I agree with you that a man should not be absolved of his responsibilities. But I retain my stance that he has less control and visibility and choices available to him as well as, potentially, far more at stake as far as the outcome is concerned. It's stacked against men.

Vadark Thu 18-Apr-13 23:42:06

""Don't worry your head about it Custardo, you just keep telling him to wear a condom until you want a baby"

Substitute "you want" for "he wants" and, by George, you've got it!"

Well that's a load of rubbish because you might be on the pill or have a coil up your sleeve. So the choice is still with YOU until YOU definitely want a baby.

runningforthebusinheels Thu 18-Apr-13 23:44:02

^ think there should be campaigns designed to highlight the issues that men and boys face and the consequences and lack of control they have.^

How shall we head up the leaflets? "Take care, boys. Women Lie" ??

Or shall we just go with "WOMEN ARE EVIL AND LIE" ??

hmm

How familiar are you with current sex and relationship education for children? It teaches children how to be equally responsible for contraception.

Tortington Thu 18-Apr-13 23:44:17

what campaign is it that advises girls that men are evil

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 18-Apr-13 23:45:45

vadark, we can all see you have a real problem with women having autonomy over their own bodies and fertility.

Tortington Thu 18-Apr-13 23:45:58

yes indeed my choice to have a baby rests with me to take contraception

a mans choice rests with him - to use contraception.

and agreement takes place therefore where this is missing...to have a baby

what is your point?

Tortington Thu 18-Apr-13 23:46:37

so plase point out the evil boy/man campaign

Mitchy1nge Thu 18-Apr-13 23:47:08

this thread makes me feel like I've taken some drugs - but pregnancy aside aren't these boys and men wearing condoms to protect themselves from, prevent the spread of, disease anyway?

Tortington Thu 18-Apr-13 23:47:38

do you still think men are too stupid to deal with their own choice - are you all let by your cocks and can't make a decision to wrap your dick?

Tortington Thu 18-Apr-13 23:49:18

dont be silly michyinge. they can't possbly do that according to vadark men lose their brains when a vagina is in the room

Tortington Thu 18-Apr-13 23:49:34

so they can't possibly make a decision

Tortington Thu 18-Apr-13 23:50:11

so evil boy/ man campaign evidence please

(evidence of anything would do but lets start here)

Vadark Thu 18-Apr-13 23:50:25

Yeah, you see, porn is yet another area where men get the shitty end of the stick. Men are seen to be perverts if they look at porn, yet women can look at what they like and that's classed as "just a bit of harmess fun".

If you watch the so-called "sex therepy" TV programmes on the TV, one gets a really screwed up, mixed message. Because the main focus is usually geared around how to please the female. Watch and listen, you'll see.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 18-Apr-13 23:50:29

Running, I think vadark and Mike should go with:

"Women are liars and tricksters. Make sure you get your paternity test"

runningforthebusinheels Thu 18-Apr-13 23:51:49

Yeah, you see, porn is yet another area where men get the shitty end of the stick. Men are seen to be perverts if they look at porn, yet women can look at what they like and that's classed as "just a bit of harmess fun".

Omfg. We've got a real live one here haven't we?

Vadark Thu 18-Apr-13 23:56:05

"Or shall we just go with "WOMEN ARE EVIL AND LIE" ??

But then you'd be making two wrongs to make a right. And your banner there is more-or-less how we portray men to our young generation - books, TV, films etc. I don't want that for women as it's not a nice place to be. You just don't understand, not until the boot was on the other foot.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Thu 18-Apr-13 23:56:24

I've read all sorts of pro and con arguments on here about porn - but I've never seen it argued that men get the "shitty end of the stick" (LOL)

Vadark Thu 18-Apr-13 23:58:53

"what campaign is it that advises girls that men are evil"

No campaign needed. It's written everywhere in society. And you know it! Any evil committed by women gets ignored more, like Mothers killing their children, for example. If more Fathers did that there would be uproar by feminists.

runningforthebusinheels Thu 18-Apr-13 23:59:02

But vadark - it was you who suggested the 'women lie" campaign to raise awareness? confused

I'd be all for a campaign that told boys they could say no to sex (I believe it is actually covered in RSE lessons already) as well as that men must listen to "no". Very important that latter one.

runningforthebusinheels Fri 19-Apr-13 00:00:03

vadark - you totally tried that "women kill their children line" on the last thread. You got totally pwned on it, too.

runningforthebusinheels Fri 19-Apr-13 00:06:27

Mothers killing their children 47%

Fathers killing their children 53%

Other child homicides - committed predominantly by males.

Source - NSPCC

Vadark Fri 19-Apr-13 00:07:23

"I've read all sorts of pro and con arguments on here about porn - but I've never seen it argued that men get the "shitty end of the stick" (LOL)"

hahahaha, yes, all very funny, hahaha hehehe.

It' so funny to be labelled a pervert just for being a man. But then I guess you'd never know because you're not sitting on the shitty end of the stick. Women can do all sorts of things and get away with them like walking into boys toilets without so much as a thought. Imagine if a man did that. But some women just go right ahead and do it. And then get away with it without being called a pervert. WTF. I wouldn't even dream of going into a female toilet. I am far too decent. And women walk intomale changing rooms just like they have the rights to do so etc. etc.

Have you EVER stopped to think about role reversal for even 1 second?

McBalls Fri 19-Apr-13 00:08:17

"... I guess you could say that women (or at least those in the porn industry) use their sexual power over men to gain financially. That's female power at work, not male power."

"Sexual power"

Isn't this the perfect distillation of misogyny?
It's what it's all about, the root of the whole fucking thing.

That you cannot just have what you want.
That you can't just demand it.
That you aren't the only one to have choices and preferences and standards and wants.

World: yes young man, you can posess and discard the object of your desires freely, it's your right.

Object of desire: nah, you're not my type, besides I'm already having plenty of lovely sex with that bloke over there.

Young man: fucking lesbian frigid whore, manipulating me into wanting her then having the gall to choose someone else. Gggrrrrrr etc.

Vadark Fri 19-Apr-13 00:12:35

"that told boys they could say no to sex (I believe it is actually covered in RSE lessons already) as well as that men must listen to "no". Very important that latter one."

You see I just love the way you wrote that - the way you said how boys COULD say no, and that men MUST listen to "no".

You were very careful not to include that women MUST listen to "NO" and then draw attention to how important that is.

It's a constant perpetually driven bias against men which is executed in such a subtle, covert manner. Very clever.

Vadark Fri 19-Apr-13 00:15:09

"Mothers killing their children 47%

Fathers killing their children 53%"

Link please?

runningforthebusinheels Fri 19-Apr-13 00:15:37

vadark - you will just say anything now, won't you?

You're talking about campaigns for men. How could you possibly disagree or picks holes in "men can say no but must listen to no?"

Men are more likely to experience rape and sexual assault at the hands of other men, then women.

runningforthebusinheels Fri 19-Apr-13 00:15:50

And violence.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Fri 19-Apr-13 00:16:54

Once more for the cheap seats..

I can prevent a baby being conceived by not having PIV, using a condom from my own supply to avoid sabotage, using a diaphragm, using hormonal methods, being sterilised.

My DH can prevent a baby being conceived by not having PIV, using a condom from his personal supply, having a vasectomy

Both can prevent.

runningforthebusinheels Fri 19-Apr-13 00:17:04

Killings of children by a natural parent are committed in roughly equal proportions by mothers (47%) and fathers (53%), but where the child is killed by someone other than a [birth] parent, males strongly predominate".

Source: NSPCC

runningforthebusinheels Fri 19-Apr-13 00:18:39

McBalls - yes.

Vadark Fri 19-Apr-13 00:21:32

No, that link (or the wording at least) came from the Home Office.

I'm off to bed....

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Fri 19-Apr-13 00:21:44

I haven't seen many feminists support women going into men's changing rooms. Anyone else?

Vadark Fri 19-Apr-13 00:22:42

"I haven't seen many feminists support women going into men's changing rooms. Anyone else?"

They support it by example.

runningforthebusinheels Fri 19-Apr-13 00:24:39

The link was the NSPCC. Home Office statistics were used, and are reliable.

runningforthebusinheels Fri 19-Apr-13 00:27:06

vadark's whole attitude that everything is some grand feminist conspiracy is mystifying. He must be a deeply unhappy and frustrated individual.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 19-Apr-13 00:31:15

vadark's world is a scary place, that's for sure. Good job it has relation to reality at all.

Use. a. condom.

Know. that. no. form. of. contraception. is. 100%.

Know that the man is equally responsible for an unwanted pregnancy as a woman. And that her 'choices' in the event of this are more life-changing.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 19-Apr-13 00:34:51

They support it by example.

Erm....? What?

runningforthebusinheels Fri 19-Apr-13 00:47:31

It' so funny to be labelled a pervert just for being a man.

Who labelled you a pervert? Show me the quote.

But then I guess you'd never know because you're not sitting on the shitty end of the stick.

You have no idea. Your male privilege is blinkering you to reality - and you don't want to lose that privilege.

Women can do all sorts of things and get away with them like walking into boys toilets without so much as a thought. Imagine if a man did that. But some women just go right ahead and do it. And then get away with it without being called a pervert. WTF. I wouldn't even dream of going into a female toilet. I am far too decent. And women walk intomale changing rooms just like they have the rights to do so etc. etc.

I don't really know what you're talking about, in an every day sense. I have heard of women going into men's toilets in old buildings, where there are a load of men's loos with no queue and 2 women's loos and a massive queue (usually because the buildings were designed in the times of women being chained to the kitchen sink, and said buildings having many more male visitors than female) as a protest for the lack of women's conveniences. But really - this is really a major problem for you and Mike? Why don't YOU campaign for more women's loos then? Is this in Mike's manifesto?

Blistory Fri 19-Apr-13 11:13:27

Vadark,

You’re never going to achieve consensus on this thread, for one reason and one reason alone. You are attacking and blaming women for the injustices that you perceive men to face.

Where on this thread have any women blamed men ? Where have men been vilified the way that you do to women ? We have all accepted that some men get a rough lot in life. We have explained that we’re not happy with that. We have explained that we believe that feminism, by improving the lives of women, will also improve the life of men. You don’t appear to accept that.

Feminism wants to drag women up to achieve equality with men – it does not want to drag men down to achieve inequality all round. Feminism does not want nor does it seem women as being superior to men – it wants equality and once that is achieved, people will then be judged on their individual merits. We will no doubt still have men who are idiots, vile and evil and we will no doubt still have women who are idiots, vile and evil.

There is no conspiracy against men nor do I believe that there is a conspiracy against women. The patriarchal society in which we currently live tends to favour men over women. It does not mean that men never suffer injustice, simply that most of the injustice is experienced by women.

All over MN, you will see threads infantilising men, mocking them and demonstrating low expectations of men’s behaviour. What you will also see if feminists calling it out and arguing against it until they are blue in the face. Maybe if you saw the support that feminists provide to men then you would appreciate the movement and theory a bit more.
And for what it’s worth, women infantilise men not because men are incapable but because it suited a patriarchal society for this belief to form. In order to keep women in their place, they had to be given a role that they could own – this ended up being the home and the raising of children. Women were so excluded from everything else that they now guard this role fiercely and don’t accept that it’s not necessarily in their interests.

Interestingly, when you look at who benefits from this mocking of men, it’s men. If you tell a man he’s useless at the housework, a woman gets to feel that she has control over the home but guess what, the man gets excused from the housework and it becomes beneath him. So who is really playing who for a fool ?

There is no reason on earth why men could not campaign for issues that affect men without attacking feminism. The two causes don’t have to be enemies and shouldn’t be given the vast areas of common ground. It doesn’t help your cause to attack us, it simply detracts from the issues at hand and we end up going round in circles feeling attacked.

Can you really not see it?

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Fri 19-Apr-13 13:15:23

Applauds Blistory, again!

seeker Fri 19-Apr-13 14:36:11

Absolutely, Blistory.

I'm finding it very baffling that Vardak's main issues seem to be a) women can somehow stop a man using a condom and force him into having unprotected sex b) there are occasionally pictures of men without shirts on in the media and (and this is very bizarre) c) women are always using men's public lavatories and changing rooms. Really????? on which planet?

Blistory Fri 19-Apr-13 15:01:09

Well, to be fair, I'm from Glasgow and given the amount of men peeing in the streets, I may have to accept that it's because of the sheer amount of women taking up space in the men's toilets.

Or I could start a thread on why the hell some men think it acceptable to whip it out and urinate in a city centre. If anything I suspect that the men who do it would argue that 'it's gay' to use the lovely facilities provided by our Victorian ancestors or that they are in danger of being assualted if they use them (I suspect this argument may have substance), in which case, it's other men that cause it, not women.

<cries at being reduced to discussing men's WC facilities on a beautiful Friday afternoon>

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 19-Apr-13 15:16:39

It'll be feminism's fault, blistory. Everything is ;)

grimbletart Fri 19-Apr-13 16:10:15

YY Blistory: men do seem to have extraordinarily weak bladders. But I guess that's our fault too.

seeker Fri 19-Apr-13 16:22:56

I'm currently waiting in my car in Canterbury City centre- and I've already and I've already seen two peeing willies! Bizarre, isn't it? I wonder in what way I forced them to do it?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 19-Apr-13 16:48:08

seeker shock and Canterbury's such a nice place.

seeker Fri 19-Apr-13 20:21:09

Nice- but a lot of pubs and a lot of students!

runningforthebusinheels Fri 19-Apr-13 20:21:30

vadark said last night: If he wants to terminate because he's not ready to be Dad, people just say "well, you should have kept your pants on". They won't even consider the circumstances of Phase 1.

I just wanted to address this sentence as this seems to be the only 'answer' to seeker's question we're going to get.

He doesn't get to choose to terminate the pregnancy because the pregnancy is happening to someone else's body. He had the same choice to use a condom in phase 1 as any other person. Any time a person has sex, with or without a condom, there is a risk of pregnancy (albeit a much higher risk for the latter) - and boys are taught this in SRE at school.

The reason he is still expected to pay maintenance for a resulting child of an accidental pregnancy is for that ^ ^ same reason. Whether planned or not, he willingly provided half the dna to create the pregnancy.

This is not due to a 'feminised society' - it is equality for women. Men have an equal part in the conception of a child, therefore they have an equal responsibility to provide for the child. Women, due to biology, already have to bear the physical brunt of childbearing - believe me we do not have it easy.

No man can really be genuinely tricked - as he has the ability to wear a condom or walk away. IME it's the man that often tries not to use a condom - because it can (apparently) impair his enjoyment of sex and he has fewer consequences to deal with in the event of a pregnancy.

I think if we boil this down to the basics, vadark is just pissed off that men are now legally obliged to pay maintenance for children they helped to bring into the world. (Although not all do. hmm )

runningforthebusinheels Fri 19-Apr-13 20:25:37

Anyway, I'm not actually going to spend yet another evening with vadarks rather twisted view of women - I'll maybe look in over the weekend.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 19-Apr-13 20:31:49

I don't actually blame you running.

seeker - they were no doubt escaping the marauding masses of women in the men's toilets.

Pan Fri 19-Apr-13 21:00:55

hey it happens! At any big gig you have loads of women invading our sacred poo-ing and wee-ing spaces. It's an outrage!
or..

there are just not sufficient loos for women..difficult one to work out.hmm

seeker Fri 19-Apr-13 23:49:30

<peers out from behind curtain>

Has he gone, then?

No chance of my questions being answered then? Oh well. Anyone care to speculate about the 3 laws Vardak would implement if he was, by some bizarre twist of fate, catapulted into power?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Sat 20-Apr-13 00:09:49

Seeker, I think vadsrk'd laws would go something like this:

1. Women lie.

2. Women trick men into fathering their children, so don't pay child maintenance to them.

3. Get a paternity test.

Bam! All men's problems solved.

CaptChaos Sat 20-Apr-13 12:13:17

Vardak's laws will be...

1. That women have to make men sign a legal form saying that they will pay for any children born of a sexual liaison and that compulsory paternity testing must be introduced for all children.

2. That children must spend alternate weeks with each parent, that men will finally have to pay 50% of the 'running costs' of a child they have fathered, and that in the event that one parent moves away, they lose all contact with the child, thereby denying most people in the Armed Forces lifelong contact with their children. This will also reduce the economic mobility of both parents and will allow an abusive partner to have continued control and opportunities to further abuse their partner.

3. Women who are abandoned by their partners when they are pregnant should have no recourse to public funds if they can't afford to raise the child alone, whereas men can go about being forced to remove condoms at will and without consequence, as long as they haven't signed the document mentioned in point 1.

While I can't be certain that I am correct, he has stated that he thinks Mike B is on the right track, and these points have been taken from Mike B's consultation document. However, what would I know? I'm aphasic or stupid.

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